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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 5:04:18 PM
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All,
Adyashanti mentioned in one of his interviews that he is still an introvert even after awakening.
I have always been curious as to what aspects of us remain even after enlightenment. I read that our conditioning still remains after enlightenment. It is a bit hard to understand for me.
What exactly does it mean?
- Near |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 7:02:09 PM
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Before enlightenment chop sticks after enlightenment chop stcks.
The only thing that changes is the perception, no more division so no more suffering, the conditioning and experiences remain.
Reading 'I am that' by Sri Nisargadatta suggests something slightly different, a merging beyond that of enlightenment with an indication that he was only seen in the light of an individuals own belief structure.
As I read books by Ady and SRM then compare with the scripts from the Gita, it's as if the trail becomes fragmented as each claims something subtly different or at least I read them as different. The Gita clearly tells that the individual remains an individual at all times.
My take is that it's pointless to pontificate on what happens. There is a fear in losing identity from where we are now. It might be that any description from those at that stage of enlightenment cannot be accurately described to those who are not awakened because, like SRM said, we add our own subtly distorted viiew point to how we understand the words. We see and hear what we want to believe.
It's the same with enlightenment in general, what we understand is a distorted view of the concepts and ideas the words convey. This means we could all be enlightened while looking for enlightenment and this is indeed is how it is sometimes described. Nothing changes because we there is nothing to change, what we are we have always been and so the chop sticks comment makes more sense.
You could ask how we actually know what our characters are, everything is based on memory, time and space are within us. Watch a raindrop fall and it only falls because we are there to view and remember each position infinitely and even then our memories are based in our understanding of time. When you create an illusion, then even the character will be an illusion.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 8:08:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
All,
Adyashanti mentioned in one of his interviews that he is still an introvert even after awakening.
I have always been curious as to what aspects of us remain even after enlightenment. I read that our conditioning still remains after enlightenment. It is a bit hard to understand for me.
What exactly does it mean?
- Near
There is a difference between 'awakening' and 'enlightenment'.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 10:29:47 PM
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Does Adyshanti ever say he is enlightened ? He talks about his awakening and refers to enlightenment in discussion. SNM categorically states he is beyond enlightenment.
Is this what you intended to point out manigma?
There are certain differences in Ady and SNM conversations which might indicate Ady has side stepped the question of his own enlightenment. There are some contradictions that are not found in any of SNMs texts.
Something just doesn't quite ring true, call it a gut instinct, something I can't quite put a finger on except to offer some doubt that he speaks from the same place as SNM. |
Edited by - karl on Aug 27 2011 10:36:54 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 12:57:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Before enlightenment chop sticks after enlightenment chop stcks.
HA! Before enlightenment chop sticks (with an "I") after enlightenment chop stcks (no "I"). HA! I love it.
Love!
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 09:08:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Does Adyshanti ever say he is enlightened ? He talks about his awakening and refers to enlightenment in discussion. SNM categorically states he is beyond enlightenment.
Is this what you intended to point out manigma?
There are certain differences in Ady and SNM conversations which might indicate Ady has side stepped the question of his own enlightenment. There are some contradictions that are not found in any of SNMs texts.
Something just doesn't quite ring true, call it a gut instinct, something I can't quite put a finger on except to offer some doubt that he speaks from the same place as SNM.
I haven't heard or read much about Adyashanti apart from a few quotes posted in the forum. I was only referring to Near's post:
quote:
Adyashanti mentioned in one of his interviews that he is still an introvert even after awakening.
'Awakening' is just a milestone towards enlightenment. To be awakened is not the end of the journey, infact, the real fun begins from here. No doubt Adyashanti remains introvert. 
1. This is awakening:
The world that appears as a different thing from the soul is almost untrue. Where is the division in a pure, formless and organless entity? Even as darkness dissolves in light, the cause of illusion dissolves in the unparalleled absolute reality which is without organs -- so where is the division in it? The supreme reality is one singularity; how can there be division in it? The state of sushupti -- dreamless deep sleep -- is blissful; who has seen divisions in it?
[Adhyatma Upanishad]
But the conditioning of the mind is not permanently destroyed here. Even if shifted aside, the algae do not lose time in covering the water again. Similarly, even if a wise man swerves from his allegiance to Brahma even for a little while, illusions cover him again.
2. This is the opening to enlightenment:
In this beginningless world, millions and millions of karma, action-impressions, are accumulated. They are all destroyed by this samadhi and pure dharma, the self-nature, grows. The knowers of yoga call it dharmamegha -- the raincloud of dharma -- samadhi, because it showers a thousand nectar-streams of dharma, the self-nature, like a raincloud. In this samadhi, the network of desires dissolves completely and the thickets of accumulated karma called virtue and sin are all uprooted at their very source. At first, this boundless statement -- tattvamasi, that art thou -- being true, is only realized indirectly; then the direct knowledge, like a myrobalan fruit kept on one's own palm, is born.
[Adhyatma Upanishad]
A yogi in this stage is like a motionless flame of a candle. Its eyes are stilled and reflect the state of its mind. The Yogi has no desires of any kind... not even of enlightenment. The Yogi has done whatever was to be done. Now there is nothing to be done on its part.
3. And this is enlightenment:
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. (Matthew 3:11)
That is all what can really be said about enlightenment. It is impossible to describe what really happens, the one who is enlightened is gone, extinguished.
What is left for us is just an empty bamboo replaced by some Holy Ghost  . And it will describe enlightenment in the best way a human 'mind' can understand.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 09:38:46 AM
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thx for the encouragements manigma ....the road seems so easy... i think i will die before achieving all these minor steps
quote:
empty bamboo replaced by some Holy Ghost
great ...looking forward to that
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 09:55:49 AM
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Manigma,
Thanks for the definitions. How would you map it to the AYP descriptions?
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 10:28:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
thx for the encouragements manigma ....the road seems so easy... i think i will die before achieving all these minor steps
quote:
empty bamboo replaced by some Holy Ghost
great ...looking forward to that
Lol.
Aum.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 10:38:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Manigma,
Thanks for the definitions. How would you map it to the AYP descriptions?
Enjoy the scenery. Enjoy, move on.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 3:28:40 PM
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escapado
Germany
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2011 : 5:23:31 PM
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I say it like that
Awakening is the falling away of the dream-illness
and Enlightenment is when the dream is seen as what it is (a dream)
Although I like to stick to "game" instead of "dream" because that is how it has been shown to me |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2011 : 2:41:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
There are certain differences in Ady and SNM conversations which might indicate Ady has side stepped the question of his own enlightenment. There are some contradictions that are not found in any of SNMs texts.
Something just doesn't quite ring true, call it a gut instinct, something I can't quite put a finger on except to offer some doubt that he speaks from the same place as SNM.
Karl,
I just have to say that these sentiments echo strongly with me as well. I have read quite a bit of Adyashanti and listened to some of his talks, and I feel as if he is constantly talking about what the state of enlightenment might be like, and not really offering avenues to reach that state (except for self-inquiry and "True Meditation"--which is kind of a joke to me because it's trying to will the mind to stillness instantly--if only it were that easy!) That's what I love about AYP--so many tools in the shed.
This is not guru bashing, but I just wanted to share that "gut instinct" that something's a bit off. To be fully honest, I sometimes fantasize about attending an Adyashanti talk and grilling him in an attempt to flip the script and reveal that he is in fact the non-duality showman that he sometimes mocks (for instance, he talks of people claiming to be on top of the mountain, when if fact they are hiding halfway up the top). Again, I'm trying to restrain from guru bashing here, but I really do wonder if Adya is that man!--halfway up the mountain when there's still an infinity of path to traverse.
Namaste. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Aug 31 2011 2:42:26 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2011 : 6:33:54 PM
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I don't think I got the answer to my original question yet
How can someone be an introvert upon enlightenment? I don't think that Adya is any less enlightened than any of the other masters we are referring to. His methods/practices might be questionable but not his level of enlightenment. Anyway it is not just about him, I've seen many other great spiritual teachers too to be having these kind of conditioning issues.
Without resorting to much of guru bashing, let us discuss Adya's case. Being an introvert means being uncomfortable in social settings. Right? How can an enlightened man, someone who has seen through the illusion of separation be uncomfortable/dislike/be afraid in certain situations?
It is not just with "being an introvert". Why do they still get angry/irritated? Why do they still want to influence the outcome of their actions?
- Near |
Edited by - nearoanoke on Aug 31 2011 8:48:50 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2011 : 9:01:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
It is not just with "being an introvert". Why do they still get angry? Why do they still want to influence the outcome of their actions?
Ignore why they behave like any normal person. Watch how they behave.
Have you ever met one personally?
When you remain with them for a while, you will notice the difference. They are... mysterious.
At one time they will appear like a normal person, the very next second you look at them they kill you in one gaze.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2011 : 07:52:29 AM
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Hi Near,
I just want to throw in my opinion:
I don't think being enlightened makes us perfect. And I also don't think there is a time when you become enlightened, and stay that way forever. It's more of a path, and some people can go quite far, then do everything wrong and back slide. Others stay on the path and go so far that we think there is something special about them. But if they chose to they could make bad decisions and become unenlightened.
So if we idolize people whom we think are "enlightened", we are likely to run into misconceptions because we don't understand, and also because they aren't perfect.
It's possible that this enlightened person could be doing the will of God all the time, then gets angry when things don't go his way, because feelings go with being human, and he's still human. That doesn't mean he is totally immersed in believing he is that body like most of us. The enlightened part of him may be standing back watching the anger just like we are. And anger is a form of communication also. If you were watching a room full of kids who were about to be killed, and it's your job to get them out of there quickly, anger might be the best communication.
Also, there is the positive and negative side to every attribute. Being an introvert is not necessarily being uncomfortable in social situations. It might be just a preference for being alone. Being alone might be necessary for whatever it is you do best. So being an introvert might be enabling rather than debilitating. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2011 : 09:46:16 AM
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Nicely said Etherfish.
I just want to add that Osho and Nisargadatta are two people I love the most. I received shaktipat from Osho.
But for a long time I was unable to understand why Nisargadatta would eat meat and Osho was so much against meat. I myself left meat and many things naturally when I began meditation, it just made no sense anymore to eat flesh.
But Osho has made fun of Nisargadatta in a discourse:
There was a man in Bombay, Nisargadatta Maharaj. Nobody knew this big name; he was known to the masses as "Beedie Baba" because he was continuously smoking beedies. You can find in every village such kinds of beedie babas. I think India has seven hundred thousand villages and each village must have at least one; more is possible. A young Dutchman became very much involved with Beedie Baba... The man seems to be very sincere, but the trouble is that the people who come from the West have a very childlike heart, very trusting, and they are unaware that in India spirituality is just a routine. Everybody talks about great things and their lives are as ugly as possible.
When Beedie Baba said that he would speak only to this young Dutchman, naturally his ego must have felt tremendously vast.
The crowd that surrounded Beedie Baba was also of the same quality... rickshaw wallahs waiting for their passengers, sitting by the side of Beedie Baba. And when he said he would not speak to anybody unless it was this Dutchman... So he spoke to the Dutchman, who has now compiled books on Beedie Baba.
Now in India it is almost parrot-like, but to the Westerner it seems to be a tremendous revelation -- when Beedie Baba said, "Aham brahmasmi; I am God, I am that" the young Dutchman immediately wrote a book: I AM THAT! Because for the West, spirituality is a foreign affair, just as for the East, science is a foreign affair.
~ Osho [Om Mani Padme Hum]
So I was confused for a long time whether any of them was Enlightened or not. Is there really a perfect Enlightened master? Like Buddha or Christ?
But then I realsied there never was any Osho nor any Nisargadatta. And neither is Enlightenment.
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2011 : 10:52:14 AM
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We should be talking about "Gurus, Sages, and Human Beings." When we elevate people, we're not doing them any favors. We're just giving them that much further to travel when they take their next pratfall. And they will, simply because we are all human. Being human is miraculous and marvelous all by itself. There's no need to be anything more.
And also, because we're all human, I am leery of granting anyone claiming spiritual enlightenment any kind of power over me. I don't think that a connection to the divine is something that another person can provide. I can learn from those who have found that connection, but the connection itself is something that lies within. I have to find it for myself. That's why AYP is so special. It says: "Here are the best tools available so far. Now get to work!"
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Edited by - whippoorwill on Sep 01 2011 11:39:18 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2011 : 1:07:43 PM
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hahaha manigma you are hilarious....and so is Osho
i absolutely love Osho sarcasm.....
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quote:
But then I realsied there never was any Osho nor any Nisargadatta. And neither is Enlightenment
better late then never
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Edited by - maheswari on Sep 01 2011 1:11:58 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2011 : 1:13:44 PM
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quote:
But then I realsied there never was any Osho nor any Nisargadatta. And neither is Enlightenment.
Be still and know that I am God.
This is why it is impossible to answer the original question. Each can only find their own answer. When it is found both question and answer disappear.
And if I am wrong, well, the worst that can happen is a die and that is the end of it and managed to cope better with life. Does it matter if a Guru is introvert or not ?
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 12:10:15 AM
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manigma wrote:
"Is there really a perfect Enlightened master? Like Buddha or Christ?"
Notice that the most perfect of "enlightened masters" belong to the distant past. Here are some scenarios:
1) Stories of ishtas get better the more they are passed on, and bad stuff is forgiven.
2) Spiritual energy was stronger long ago, but that should have produced more masters.
3) There were so few enlightened people back then, that they were worshiped, which would lead to stories of grandeur. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 01:28:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
manigma wrote:
"Is there really a perfect Enlightened master? Like Buddha or Christ?"
Notice that the most perfect of "enlightened masters" belong to the distant past. Here are some scenarios:
1) Stories of ishtas get better the more they are passed on, and bad stuff is forgiven.
2) Spiritual energy was stronger long ago, but that should have produced more masters.
3) There were so few enlightened people back then, that they were worshiped, which would lead to stories of grandeur.
I am very good at making stories you know. My son never sleeps until he hears one from me.
You can not imagine how many adventures has Etherfish had till now.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 01:46:55 AM
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Ether
quote:
Stories of ishtas get better the more they are passed on, and bad stuff is forgiven
and forgotten.... |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 02:08:11 AM
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| Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. ~Zen Buddhist Proverb |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 04:20:54 AM
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quote:
You can not imagine how many adventures has Etherfish had till now.
use maheswari for a change |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 06:59:53 AM
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I think the mention of the Guru is confusing the question, which is , will I be the same after enlightenment?
It's a question born of ignorance and cannot be answered. Enlightenment isn't a change to the self, the self already is. Nisargadatta always uses the analogy of gold being melted down and turned into jewellry. The essential nature is Gold, to mistake it for anything other is mistaken belief.
So the question is once I know that My true nature is Gold will I still Think I am Jewellry?
Or putting it another way " once I have realised my true nature will I still retain my false nature?
A guru telling you anything is just part of the illusion and only possible because you are not aware of your true nature.
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Topic |
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Enlightenment and Conditioning
