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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 2:01:19 PM
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I thought some of you would be curious about this breaking story. I'm not saying that the account in this manuscript is solid, or meaningful, but it's definitely interesting to people with an interest in Christianity and its history. The manuscript itself is considered an authentic archaeological artifact.
San Francisco Chronicle
An early Christian manuscript, including the only known text of the Gospel of Judas, has surfaced after 1,700 years, and it portrays Judas Iscariot not as a betrayer of Jesus but as his favored disciple and willing collaborator. ...
SF Chronicle
BBC
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 07 2006 2:17:27 PM |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 3:49:00 PM
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I was reading about this yesterday--interesting. For anyone who is able to receive the National Geographic television channel, there is to be a special about this on Sunday.
Kathy |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 3:50:01 PM
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Hari Om
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Hello David,
thx for the info... I read it, and found it notable and a new view to consider... Doesn't much change things I think for Christians. I see it as 'following what the master instructs'. I still ponder Jesus' proclmation http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=953 and wondered if the scribe got it wrong... I guess maybe some day this too maybe discovered. Yet, in the final analysis, I can see people saying, ' oh, how 'bout that , eh ' and that would be the extent of it.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 07 2006 4:11:56 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 4:52:50 PM
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Yes...this was in the Norwegian news yesterday.
Frank wrote:
quote:
I still ponder Jesus' proclmation http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=953
Well...when Jesus said to follow him ("I am the truth") I always took it to mean to follow the truth that streamed through him. The same truth that permeats everyone and everything. For me it was like this: At first i followed truth when I found it out there (I never met Jesus, though....but there has been others). Whenever I was touched by truth out there, the imprint expanded the contact with the truth inside. Then one day the whole focus shifted....it was like I reached an inner momentum....and from then on, I follow truth inside. It is always inside. When I find truth outside now; it is always an expansion of the inner truth. The origin is inside.
Judas...
I did a concert series with a Norwegian ensemble a year ago...."Jesus Christ Superstar". I sung the part of a "soulgirl"...I had so much fun  .....anyway; it made me ponder the role of Judas....
May all your Nows be Here |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 5:24:49 PM
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| This stuff has gone through all sorts of oral recounting, transcribing, and translation. If a word here or there seems a bit "off", well, that's to be expected. The essence of what he was saying shines through, and if any of the niggles seem at odds, there's no reason to get hung up over it. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 07 2006 5:25:17 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:34:07 PM
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Hari OM
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Hello Folks,
FYI - on the History Channel, (edited by me, it was National Geographic) the Gospel of Judas A 2 hr. special. The document , according to Carbon dating is ~ 180 AD ( +/-) 50 years...so , its not from Adobe Illustrator  ... now, you have to consider the story, and I will leave that to you.
FYI - this summer thier Nat Geo Mag will have a section dedicated to this... it was good to listen to this special - something that had merit and was uplifting (sort of)
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 10 2006 1:03:37 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:38:16 PM
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| Thanks Frank |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 4:11:39 PM
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Hi All,
I got a copy of The National Geographic Society, Gospel of Judas today. It is an amazing find, well handled by the scholars. The content is troubling.
The text has Jesus saying to Judas, “…you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me [literally, the man that bears me].
According to the translator’s commentary, “Jesus is instructing Judas to help him by sacrificing the fleshy body (“the man”) that clothes or bears the true spiritual self of Jesus. The death of Jesus, with the help of Judas, is taken to be a liberation of the spiritual person within.”
That seems to suggest that Judas was motivated by a negative view of the human body -- a prison for the soul. By getting rid of Jesus' body, he freed Jesus soul. Not an inspiritng message for those of us who want to find enlightment in harmony with our physical bodies.
Bewell
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 4:28:30 PM
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Hello Bewell,
whereas the manuscript itself is an authentic archaeological artifact, there would be many questions about how authentic, accurate, and valid its actual content is.
What is clear now is that there was at least one sect at this time that believed in this picture of Judas and Jesus. But how accurate that picture was is yet another question. So in short, we are getting a fairly accurate picture of a someone's picture; but we can dispute how accurate someone's picture was.
Bewell said:
That seems to suggest that Judas[did you mean Jesus, Bewell?] was motivated by a negative view of the human body -- a prison for the soul. By getting rid of Jesus' body, he freed Jesus soul. Not an inspiritng message for those of us who want to find enlightment in harmony with our physical bodies.
I am more curious than concerned. I do think some Early Christians were more 'enlightened' than Christianity as standardized under Emperor Constantine (the Bill Gates of Christianity  ), but some of them were less so. There is illumination, but also all sorts of confusion and darkness among them.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 10 2006 4:31:43 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 9:14:55 PM
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[b]Bewell said:
That seems to suggest that Judas[did you mean Jesus, Bewell?] was motivated by a negative view of the human body...
David,
That was unclear. By Judas, I meant, Gospel of Judas's portrait of what Jesus said. I don't imagine Jesus had that motive, given what I know elsewhere about Jesus. |
Edited by - bewell on Apr 10 2006 9:20:45 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 9:38:53 PM
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| On further thought, maybe I shouldn't be so sure so soon. Maybe Jesus did say, "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me." If I assume Jesus said it then it might mean something different than, "I want to be liberated from this fleshy body." It might have been more embracing his circumstances. Or maybe he did, on some level, some secret level that he confided to Judas, want such liberation. That might fit with the tradition of Judas's suicide if Judas, as a friend of Jesus, privy to that secret, wanted to join him. Still troubling. I don't know. |
Edited by - bewell on Apr 10 2006 9:47:04 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 12:06:09 AM
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You can view the documents and translations here:
http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/...l/index.html
my friend's studio made the TV commercials for this show! She had to sign a non-disclosure paper.
You shouldn't take documents so seriously.
The problem with any documents like this, including the whole bible, is it is colored by the beliefs of those who wrote it, and words are not conducive to conveying absolute truth, especially in western languages.
There were many small sects of christianity back when this was written, and this gospel came from the coptic and gnostic beliefs which were that God can be found within ourselves. These documents didn't make it into the bible because if you don't need an outside intercessor, the church has no power over people. So Catholics and christians rejected any writings that suggested the power is within us.
These discoveries should help christians to be more open minded, and follow the teachings of Jesus, rather than a bible that is supposed to be the only truth.
Isn't it ironic that the least true of the writings have the most power to survive? |
Edited by - Etherfish on Apr 13 2006 12:07:29 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 08:10:32 AM
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Ether said:
Isn't it ironic that the least true of the writings have the most power to survive?
Unfortunately, quality and survival power aren't the same thing; it would be great if they were. Some religions survive because they are appealing in a primitive way, and promote a primitive, jealous tribal-god-chief sort of God.
I have a theory that human religious tendencies are colored by genes that make us obedient to a narcissistic tribal god-chief; these genes helped keep us obedient and alive in the times when the tribal god-chiefs were predominant. The religions that play most to these genes and dynamics are the most primitive, but also have the most primitive appeal.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 13 2006 08:11:31 AM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 08:37:47 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Etherfish
These discoveries should help christians to be more open minded, and follow the teachings of Jesus, rather than a bible that is supposed to be the only truth.
Eitherfish,
Regarding "following Jesus," what would be your top ten teachings?
Bewell |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 09:45:08 AM
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I am quoting from the PDF-file which can be downloaded from:
http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/...ocument.html
Quote begin (quite at the end of the doc):
JESUS SPEAKS OF THOSE WHO ARE BAPTIZED, AND JUDAS’S BETRAYAL
Judas said to Jesus, “Look, what will those who have been baptized in your name do?”
Jesus said, “Truly I say [to you], this baptism [56] […] my name [—about nine lines
missing—] to me. Truly [I] say to you, Judas, [those who] offer sacrifices to Saklas […]
God [—three lines missing—] everything that is evil.
“But you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.
Already your horn has been raised,
your wrath has been kindled,
your star has shown brightly,
and your heart has […]. [57]
Quote end
This really does not seem to me that Judas is better than the other disciples,
on the contrary, it could mean that Judas is exeeding the others in wrong doing.
In other parts of the documents it says that the 12 disciples (and their followers)
are doing (or will be doing) all kind of sins. Don't get me wrong: I am not here
to accuse and condem the church, I am just pointing out how I understand this
lost gospel. Unfortunately many parts of the document are missing and leaves a lot
for specualtion. But it is my firm belief that Jesus regards the physical body
as holy. The body is a temple of God and I am responsible of how I use it.
From the translated document it is clear to me that none of the disciples
understood Jesus. Jesus many times laughed at their misunderstandings.
It just is astounding that Judas seemed to be the one who was able to stand up
to the truth that Jesus impersonated, none of the other disciples was able to
withstand Jesus. Also however, Judas was not able to look into the eyes of Jesus.
The truth (of seeing himself in Jesus' eyes) was probably too painful.
It also says in the text, that Jesus is telling secrets to Judas which will grieve Judas.
No offense meant against Christianty
regards
Wolfgang
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 11:45:31 PM
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Bewell wrote:
"Regarding "following Jesus," what would be your top ten teachings?"
I don't follow Jesus, so can't come up with ten.
I think "Love your enemies as yourself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" are good.
But my favorite is the lord's prayer.
If you spend a lot of time contemplating every line separately, it has a lot of deep meaning, and to me it means Jesus believed a lot more like AYP than the modern idea of what christianity is.
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 11:39:12 AM
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I sometimes listen to national public radio (NPR) while working. There is a station out of San Francisco (KQED) that has archives of various shows.
Yesterday there was an interesting discussion on the Gospel of Judas. Were Jesus and some early Christians mystics? Were the other gospels left out of the Bible because they were 'advanced' studies? Did the men who put the books of the Bible together leave the gnostic books out because they led people to believe that every person could find the light of God within themselves? If they included them then these 'holy' men might find themselves without a job!
Anyway, KQED has archives and you can listen to some of their programs over the internet.
Use the link below if you want to hear the discussion on this topic. Choose the "Talk of the Nation" show with Neal Conan (not the talk of the nation science friday one) and choose the date April 13th. Scroll down and you'll see the show-- click on it to listen.
http://www.kqed.org/radio/archives.jsp
They also have an excerpt of the text you can read...
Light and Love,
Kathy |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 12:01:57 PM
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Kathy asked:
Did the men who put the books of the Bible together leave the gnostic books out because they led people to believe that every person could find the light of God within themselves?
In a word, yes. The Council of Nicea rejected any books that implied that any person could find the light of God within themselves (and there were a number). Finding the light was the job of The Church. It was a highly political council, with highly political purposes and results.
The Council of Nicea was the end of 'Open Source' in Christianity, and the rise of an all-powerful priest-group, whose job was to find the light for everyone.
Eventually, the Protestant Reformation was to take a baby-step back from that, but unfortunately it was only a baby-step, though under the constraints of the time, it felt huge. They maintained a sacralized view of The Council, and considered the acts of The Council as the Work of God. As a result of the Protestant Reformation, people were allowed to find some light for themselves within the books that were put together by The Council, but not within themselves or outside the books.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 14 2006 4:42:43 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 4:39:00 PM
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| I was listening to NPR too yesterday for a breif time. There was a historian being interviewed and I'm sorry I can't remember her name or the name of her book. One thing she said was essentially: Judas was an inner-circle disciple who was an initiate into the mysteries that were then hidden from the general faithful hordes. Maybe it was a Kali age thing. Judas was a true and faithful disciple. Jesus asked him to turn him over to the authorities so as to fulfill the lila. Jesus told his disciples in places in the gospels that the karma of the cross would be fulfilled. Many of them couldn't understand the esoteric obligation and didn't like hearing of it. Judas faithfully and lovingly carried out his Guru's request. Imagine being able to lovingly carry out that task. The political bend of the future gospels that were officially recognized had to have enemies. A cheapened, greedy and political Judas was created. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 4:53:08 PM
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p.s. some words like lila and guru, and the 'maybe it was a Kali age thing' are thrown in by me. The rest is what I heard in a nutshell
alan |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 4:58:37 PM
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Alan said:
The political bend of the future gospels that were officially recognized had to have enemies. A cheapened, greedy and political Judas was created.
Well, look on the bright side. In the Passion Play we now have someone to boo at (Pilate) and someone to hiss at (Judas).
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 10:36:18 PM
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Alan wrote:
"Judas was an inner-circle disciple who was an initiate into the mysteries that were then hidden from the general faithful hordes."
Yes, that's what the gospel of Judas is about. Plus the idea that God didn't create the world. I don't understand that part though.
David wrote:
"Eventually, the Protestant Reformation was to take a baby-step back from that"
Was that the reformation led by Martin Luther the hypocrite? Claiming that the true path was "sola scriptura"; only follow the scripture, but ignore the seven books of the bible he didn't like.
Alan wrote:
"The political bend of the future gospels that were officially recognized had to have enemies. A cheapened, greedy and political Judas was created."
I agree. I think a lot of the bible was sensationalized to catch the attention of big egos. I've actually heard fanatic christians say "He rose from the dead for God's sake. How could you not believe what he said?" I'm looking at them out of the corner of my eyes, thinking man, you have some surprises coming in this age of increasing spiritual energy. Have fun worshiping false prophets!
I agree with the whole passion play concept. It has been said that the only reason Christ said on the cross "Father why hast thou forsaken me?" was not because he felt that way, but to fulfill the prophecy from thirty years before that predicted him saying that. He was playing a part; reading the script.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 10:38:37 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Etherfish
I think "Love your enemies as yourself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" are good. But my favorite is the lord's prayer. If you spend a lot of time contemplating every line separately, it has a lot of deep meaning, and to me it means Jesus believed a lot more like AYP than the modern idea of what christianity is.
Thanks Etherfish,
Bewell |
Edited by - bewell on Apr 14 2006 11:20:08 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 10:44:36 PM
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Eitherfish wrote:
I agree with the whole passion play concept. It has been said that the only reason Christ said on the cross "Father why hast thou forsaken me?" was not because he felt that way, but to fulfill the prophecy from thirty years before that predicted him saying that. He was playing a part; reading the script.
Why do you say that?
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2006 : 09:44:40 AM
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“All things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me” (Luke 24:44).
“My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?” is taken from Psalms 22:1
But I am more inclined to think it was a mistranslation. Tranlators today are more accomplished in the finer points of language differences, and Lamsa's bible translates it as "My God, my God, for this I was spared" which would mean "to create this example is the entire reason I have lived"
Lamsa's bible has corrected quite a few mistranslations in the King James.
No profound differences in meaning, but just more common sense. Like instead of "easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle" should be "easier to fit a rope through the eye of a needle", the difference being the absence of a small brush stroke dot.
What was translated as "forsaken" can mean several things depending on the context, and the original translator interpreted the context.
Jesus could have easily escaped his capture, because he knew it was coming. He even had a supper to celebrate the event.
Then when he uttered the words, he had been on the cross for forty hours of interrogation and mocking without complaining at all. So having lived a life of being immersed in God, to break at that point would seem to negate his entire purpose. Instead what he was doing was rejoicing in the fulfillment of his purpose. And that is exactly what those words mean if they are translated correctly.
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2006 : 1:18:51 PM
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| To take that a bit further, maybe in "enjoying" the fulfillment of the agony, Jesus was Being there in the same seemingly hopeless plight of all his earth-bound children in their agony of being seperate from God ("Why hast Thou forsaken me?"). As he ordained the Earth from whence we all rise into this experience with the fully charged Blood of his healing grace, and shared in our agony, he was being there full circle; agony to awakening. We are at present experiencing the ressurection in Christ Consciousness from within and throughout our collective sacred Earth Body. |
Edited by - alan on Apr 15 2006 1:32:36 PM |
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Judas collaborating with Jesus?
