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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
 Posted - May 15 2006 : 02:10:13 AM
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quote:
Etherfish said elsewhere: What I'm wondering is if the rapture (a Christian belief) could actually be some great increase in spiritual energy, and not a good guy/bad guy thing?
Any thoughts?
Some kind of rapture may happen or it may not happen.
I am not concerned if it does happen.
But what surely is already happening is the increase in spiritual energy.
And this increase of energy is foremost inside of all of us.
The outcome of this energy is up to us.
The increase of energy is the cause, is primary.
The rapture would be an effect, secondary.
Some people may wish to use the energy for a kind of rapture.
I for myself will use this energy to create something beautiful: peace and bliss.
With love and light
Wolfgang |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 03:08:58 AM
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| Hi Ether. The global situation is thought by many fundamentalist 'intellectuals' (an oxymoron?) to be the harbinger of the coming Apocalypso, or whatever one calls it. I was raised on this stuff, as well as the Rapture, and know that it is taken quite literally. The 'Left Behind' series has made a killing off the premise. Since departing from my former beliefs, I've come to think of the Rapture, if indeed it occurs in some form, as a time when some seriously bad stuff may occur in quick succession, including wars, natural disasters, and the like. This is already occurring, but I mean at an even faster pace. The result would be a lot of deaths, to say the least, but there would also be an outpouring of compassion for the survivors. Think of the Sept. 11 tragedy - so much pain and suffering, and yet it was the most unified our country has ever been. Grief brings with it compassion; enormous grief brings with it enormous compassion. So yes, I think that if there is to be a major global disaster, it will likely bring with it an equal amount of love in the form of spiritual energy. I felt this on Sept. 11, on the afternoon after the bombing - a palpable energy wherever I went, and everyone I know felt it as well. |
Edited by - Manipura on May 15 2006 2:49:33 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 03:57:18 AM
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Hi all
The crisis I have been through in my life have all had one thing in common: The disaster shocks me into NOW. Where all life resides. The greater the shock - the more quiet i become. And then...
Just a thought - on the palpable energy you are talking about, Meg. It is indeed so. I remember watching the plains crash into the two towers....being shocked into silence.....And then....
May all your Nows be Here |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 08:03:10 AM
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Wolfgang wrote:
"The rapture would be an effect, secondary.
Some people may wish to use the energy for a kind of rapture."
So what do you think the rapture is? Are you saying it is the disappearance of people?
Meg, i agree. i like it when bad stuff happens because it means good things are coming, or vice versa. For instance, people not liking current political agenda is likely to cause a backlash so they will vote for someone opposite next time. Too much "love" in the sixties caused a disrespectful era after that. The government enforcing political correctness caused a backlash in non-political circles. |
Edited by - Etherfish on May 16 2006 12:08:49 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 11:11:25 AM
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@etherfish: those people believe in some kind of rapture
and I do not know what kind of rapture they believe in.
I myself do not believe in a disappearance of people.
These people may develop such a strong belief that it
is creating spiritual energy.
May be I don't understand your question clearly,
you wrote:
"What I'm wondering is if the rapture could actually be some great increase in spiritual energy"
You are using the word "rapture" in connection with the increase in spiritual energy.
So, may be you can explain to me in other words, what you are really wondering about.
Please excuse, may be my english is not good enough and there may be some difficulties
of understand what you are trying to say.
regards
Wolfgang |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 11:42:40 AM
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Meg said:
Grief brings with it compassion; enormous grief brings with it enormous compassion.
Well, it can, but it certainly doesn't always. Grief can bring out the best, and also the worst in people and in peoples.
There is a common belief that grief, traumas and hardships can tend to hold relationships together. Statistically, though, the opposite is true right now in America -- for example, bereavement and financial problems put enormous stresses on marriages and often 'break' them.
Why do we tend to believe that grief and hardships will help to hold relationships together, when the opposite seems true in the statistics? Is it because we know that they have the potential to do so?
When does grief become a catalyst for growth, and when does it cause further falling-apart? What helps grief become a catalyst for growth, rather than a catalyst for further falling-apart?
Perhaps the difference is a good spiritual foundation to begin with. Which is what we are trying to acheive here in AYP.
I do have a sense that the next six years or so will be extremely trying -- wars, terrorism, major financial problems. Following the analogy/myth of Noah, it is time to build spiritual Arks for ourselves and the future world while we still can.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 15 2006 12:01:40 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 12:09:09 PM
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Wolfgang is right in his confusion. The Rapture, in fundamentalist Christian jargon, is thought to be the time at which believers in Christ are whisked up to heaven so that they may avoid the disasters which will abruptly take place on earth. Those unfortunates who remain will be given the option to accept salvation, but not without a good slog through the chaos and hardships here on earth. It reads like fiction, and like Ether, I'll refrain from commenting on it.
I think the sentence is confusing:
Ether>>What I'm wondering is if the rapture could actually be some great increase in spiritual energy"
It might make more sense like this:
What I'm wondering is if the rapture could actually be the catalyst for some great increase in spiritual energy"
Of course, this is assuming that you subscribe to the belief in the Rapture as a literal transporting of bodies to another realm. I'd suggest that it's the transporting of souls (lots and lots of them), if indeed it happens.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 12:29:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
[b]There is a common belief that grief, traumas and hardships can tend to hold relationships together. Statistically, though, the opposite is true right now in America -- for example, bereavement and financial problems put enormous stresses on marriages and often 'break' them.
Why do we tend to believe that grief and hardships will help to hold relationships together, when the opposite seems true in the statistics? Is it because we know that they have the potential to do so?
When does grief become a catalyst for growth, and when does it cause further falling-apart? What helps grief become a catalyst for growth, rather than a catalyst for further falling-apart?
Perhaps the difference is a good spiritual foundation to begin with. Which is what we are trying to acheive here in AYP.
Good points David, except that you seem to be talking about personal relationships, while I'm talking about communities and countries. Grief and hardship in personal relationships tends to pull us inward; we feel acutely that our personal welfare is at stake, and that the 'other' is the obstacle, rather than the catalyst, for growth. Thus the pulling apart, and collapse of the relationship.
The opposite happens on a larger scale. Less of the personal is at stake; in crude terms, it becomes a case of 'us against them', which is always a great tool for pulling together adverse parties. Looking at the Sept. 11 tragedy again, it brought us together as a nation, and for a short time - a few days maybe? - there were no Republicans, no Democrats, no nothing except a unity in spirit and compassion. ( A slight exaggeration, but work with me here). In my community, there was a coming together and working for something - peace - which had the effect of tearing down the walls of former disputes.
Many personal relationships suffered terribly in the aftermath, and obviously the country didn't stay bonded for long. But the potential for unity in grief was and is made apparent whenever we are forced to pull out of our egocentric existence and realize that we truly are one people. Wouldn't it be great if we could also do that in personal relationships? Ah - but that takes work.  |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 1:29:30 PM
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Hello Meg,
actually, I didn't mean just personal relationships; any self-idenifying entity may become more self-concerned in a state of grief, and it may actually severely diminish the concern for other 'entities'. That's true for if the enties are people, or communities, religions, and nations.
True, America held together for a while after Sept 11. (It became more self-concerned and more internally compassionate). But did it become more externally compassionate, meaning compassionate towards the suffering of other countries?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 15 2006 1:38:19 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 1:59:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Hello Meg,
actually, I didn't mean just personal relationships; any self-idenifying entity may become more self-concerned in a state of grief, and it may actually severely diminish the concern for other 'entities'. That's true for if the enties are people, or communities, religions, and nations.
True, America held together for a while after Sept 11. (It became more self-concerned and more internally compassionate). But did it become more externally compassionate, meaning compassionate towards the suffering of other countries?
In the first paragraph, the key word is may. It also may not. There's no hard and fast rule, but I see overwhelming evidence that points to an inward-spiraling grief during personal tragedy, and an outward-spiraling one during larger and less personal ones. The explanation is obvious: When the grief hits us personally and affects our private lives, there is often no where to turn except inward in regression. Not so with community or national or global crises; in this arena, the only safe harbor is one's private life (hopefully!) The spiraling outward away from self-interest happens naturally as we bond with others in mutual suffering. We're effectively pulled out of self-identity and forced to engage as a community or nation. If that community or nation becomes the new paradigm of self-awareness, then so much the better. It too will be enlarged some day.
Second paragraph: In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the concern was for our fellow Americans, no doubt. But there was also an inpouring of concern and aid from other countries. At that particular moment it was time for us to unite in our grief. And yes, I do think that it made us hyper-aware in a brand new way of the atrocities that happen in other countries. Fearless America, the Untouchables!! Well, that bubble was popped, and many of us realized for the first time what Third World countries face daily. So yes, I believe that Grief opens our collective heart and results in greater Compassion.
I'm desperately trying to relate this to AYP. Um, meditate, y'all! |
Edited by - Manipura on May 15 2006 2:05:24 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 3:26:50 PM
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Meg said:
The spiraling outward away from self-interest happens naturally as we bond with others in mutual suffering. We're effectively pulled out of self-identity and forced to engage as a community or nation.
I'm not sure you picked up all of my point, Meg.
A. In an event like Sept 11, what suffered? A nation. Did the nation become self-focussed and self-concerned? Definitely.
B. Did some individuals become less self-concerned, and the nation pull together more? Definitely. But this does not contradict A.
C. Did the nation become more concerned about other nations? This is the part I doubt. The entity that suffers grief is not necessarily more likely to be more compassionate as a result, towards other similar entities.
The part about other nations becoming compassionate towards the US as a result of September 11, is kinda beside the point, since they were not the ones that suffered the loss. I'm saying that suffering loss is not usually good for stimulating compassion for OTHERS.
A nation 'pulling together' in grief is not necessarily as good as it seems. Like a person 'pulling together' in grief, it can become self-focussed. No hard-and-fast rules anywhere, agreed.
There is an even far more inflammatory 20th century example, which I won't go into here, of a 'nation' or people, that suffered terrible losses and then trampled over another nation/people. There's nothing particularly wicked about it -- that kind of thing is the norm, and should be expected. Grief/loss can bring a sense of entitlement.
If you are to become MORE COMPASSIONATE as a result of loss/grief, you are going to have to have something special that moves you to swim against the tide. Generally expect loss/grief to do damage to compassion UNLESS there is the unusual swimming against the tide.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 4:07:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I'm not sure you picked up all of my point, Meg.
A. In an event like Sept 11, what suffered? A nation. Did the nation become self-focussed and self-concerned? Definitely.
B. Did some individuals become less self-concerned, and the nation pull together more? Definitely. But this does not contradict A.
C. Did the nation become more concerned about other nations? This is the part I doubt. The entity that suffers grief is not necessarily more likely to be more compassionate as a result, towards other similar entities.
The part about other nations becoming compassionate towards the US as a result of September 11, is kinda beside the point, since they were not the ones that suffered the loss. I'm saying that suffering loss is not usually good for stimulating compassion for OTHERS.
A nation 'pulling together' in grief is not necessarily as good as it seems. Like a person 'pulling together' in grief, it can become self-focussed. No hard-and-fast rules anywhere, agreed.
There is an even far more inflammatory 20th century example, which I won't go into here, of a 'nation' or people, that suffered terrible losses and then trampled over another nation/people. There's nothing particularly wicked about it -- that kind of thing is the norm, and should be expected. Grief/loss can bring a sense of entitlement.
If you are to become MORE COMPASSIONATE as a result of loss/grief, you are going to have to have something special that moves you to swim against the tide. Generally expect loss/grief to do damage to compassion UNLESS there is the unusual swimming against the tide.
I'm quite sure that I didn't pick up all of your point, but I think I picked up enuf to catch your drift. I think we're coming at a given tragedy - in this case, Sept. 11 - from opposite directions. You say that as a nation we became more self-focused and less concerned for other nations (a point which I dispute, but onward). The grief we experienced as a nation did not make us more compassionate as a nation. I believe that's what you're saying, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm saying that the grief that we experienced as a nation yanked us out of our oblivions and forced us to reckon with external circumstances which are bigger than our individual lives. AS A NATION, we pulled together, and in that pulling together we were forced out of individual isolation. The nation then became the self-focused point of interest. From a global perspectiive, not a great thing. From an individual perspective, a very great thing. Perhaps the only great thing in this particular event. It will take another, greater tragedy of epic proportions to unite us globally. Lord help us.
The reason I brought up the fact that other nations helped and grieved for us after 9/11 was to show that nations do reach out to other nations during tragedies, and they do this as well during time of grief. The tsunami comes to mind - there was a united effort, in spite of personal loss, to lend support.
David>> The entity that suffers grief is not necessarily more likely to be more compassionate as a result, towards other similar entities.
This simply has not been my observation or experience, but if it is yours, then so it is. Nations don't feel grief, btw. Only people feel grief. and act upon it or not, individually or otherwise. Grief MAY be a catalyst for action.
David>>Generally expect loss/grief to do damage to compassion UNLESS there is the unusual swimming against the tide.
Not generally, ALWAYS. That's what grief does - pulls us out of the current, and from there we may choose to move in a different direction, toward compassion. It's the swimming against the tide that generates the compassion.
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Edited by - Manipura on May 15 2006 4:54:02 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 4:49:50 PM
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Meg said:
You say that as a nation we became more self-focused and less concerned for other nations (a point which I dispute, but onward).
Meg, I didn't say that at all. I just questioned whether the U.S. became more compassionate towards other nations as a result of September 11th....
Meg said:
Nations don't feel grief, btw. Only people feel grief.
No..... The meaning of "nations feel grief" is that the people in them feel grief, particularly in regard to some national matter. So if you are saying what you just said, you probably just misunderstand the meaning.....
Looks like we agree that there are no hard and fast rules on this....
What I am saying is simply this: that showing more compassion TOWARDS THE OTHER as a result of grief is not particularly usual. Maybe the more usual thing is the opposite.....
The people of a nation showing more compassion towards each other as a result of national grief is a different effect....
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 15 2006 5:02:29 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 5:06:51 PM
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Okay. Sorry for putting words in your mouth David - that's so annoying and I hate it when that happens. Nope - no hard and fast rules here. We work with what we've got, and hope that a maximum amount of good comes out of tragedies.
An aside: I wonder how many wife- and husband-beaters participate in peace marches? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 5:14:02 PM
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[posted at the same time as you]
Case in point: after September 11th, there was still digging out of bodies come Thanksgiving time. A very small minority of the victim's relatives group were willing to call a halt to the retrieval of bodies just for the one day, so that the workers could go home to their families for Thanksgiving. That's compassion.
That was the minority. The majority of the group, however, were adamant that the work continued through Thanksgiving day, and they got their way. That's isn't compassion. They didn't care so much about the workers getting to go home to celebrate a once-in-a-year sentimental get-together with their loved ones.
Their own grief was more important than other people's joy. That's more the norm among grieving people. Anger and intense self-focus and unreasonableness and selfishness are very common among them.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 15 2006 5:22:33 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 6:30:43 PM
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| Instances about. For every selfish act in that tragedy, there was a selfless act. Pound for pound they may weigh in equally. The point we argue, and on which we disagree, is whether or not grief produces compassion. How 'bout this: Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It all depends on what a person chooses to do with their grief (i.e., swim against the tide), and then how that grief manifests externally. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 7:02:58 PM
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Yeah I don't think we can generalize about that. There are a million different influences, and they all slowly bring people closer to god, but each individual is affected differently. During a disaster like katrina, almost all people involved will pull together and help each other because they need each other, and a lot of others will help because that's what they do anyway.
If aliens from outer space attacked earth, we'd all pull together and direct our war mongering towards them, but the total amount of compassion would just slightly increase as it always does.
Melissa and your magic teacher: be careful! This whole thing about phone number records is to watch everyone who may have come into contact with known terrorists. and they will make all kinds of assumptions and jump to all kinds of false conclusions in the process. I'm sure it may be true Bin Laden has a spiritual aura, but that just proves no amount of spiritual advancement removes evil from us permanently. We still have free choice. In my opinion, people who wish harm on others are all in the same group, and their spirituality doesn't amount to anything.
What i meant by the increase of spiritual energy and the rapture is that a lot of bible prophecies are built around truth, then twisted to remain hidden. At one time references to being able to reach god without an intercessor (jesus, the church, etc.)were removed. And I know spiritual energy is increasing anyway.
But my speculation was that the rapture might be some great additional increase at this time. Rapture is defined as a sense of ecstacy,
and/or a transporting to heaven. Both of these are twisted in christian beliefs to mean someplace other than earth, some time other than now.
The lord's prayer says "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".
to me that means there is something we can achieve here and now, as is evidenced by AYP. The rapture isn't referred to as something that takes hundreds of years like a yuga. It is referred to as something that happens suddenly, in a short time.
so it makes me think there may be some time when a lot of people could reach this state at the same time. I really don't think it has anything to do with christians; it has to do with AYP and the like. These are the teachings Jesus was trying to pass on, not go to church and god will treat you special.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 8:27:12 PM
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quote:
Ether said: The lord's prayer says "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".
to me that means there is something we can achieve here and now, as is evidenced by AYP. The rapture isn't referred to as something that takes hundreds of years like a yuga. It is referred to as something that happens suddenly, in a short time.
so it makes me think there may be some time when a lot of people could reach this state at the same time. I really don't think it has anything to do with christians; it has to do with AYP and the like. These are the teachings Jesus was trying to pass on, not go to church and god will treat you special.
Thanks Ether.. I like the way you simplified it..
quote:
David said: Grief can bring out the best, and also the worst in people and in peoples
I agree with you David.. a 100%
quote:
David said:Their own grief was more important than other people's joy. That's more the norm among grieving people. Anger and intense self-focus and unreasonableness and selfishness are very common among them.
This could have something to do with the degree of understanding a of life (spiritually I mean) and purification don't you think?
quote:
Meg Said:Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It all depends on what a person chooses to do with their grief (i.e., swim against the tide), and then how that grief manifests externally.
Yes Meg, very well said.. we all react to grief differently.. depending on our evolution and purification.. and also on karma.. some of us hold on to a tragedy.. for life times together.. till we find something like AYP that helps us get over it... after all what do you think all this purification is about.. life times of pain and suffering that we just did not let go so far.. right?
Something Jim had said in another thread..
"The literature says that as we practice, we still grieve over what there is to grieve over, we are sad or joyful when those emotions arise. However we SUFFER less and less."
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Edited by - Shanti on May 15 2006 9:31:43 PM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 11:31:24 AM
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Why am I showing up as the author of this topic "Global rapture" ?
I did not start such a topic ...
I am not angry that such a thread is started
and I also don't care that I am shown as the author.
I am just wondering how this comes !?
regards
Wolfgang |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 1:12:23 PM
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Hi Wolfgang:
Apologies for the rearrangement. It was a random event that you ended up on top of the list of posters in this topic. If it is not okay, I will see what we can do to change it.
The reason for the rearrangement is because the AYP forums do not host political discussions, and this entire topic was going to be deleted for that reason. The moderators felt that there was useful spiritual (non-political) discussion in the topic (including your fine posts), so a salvage effort was undertaken (the first time such a thing has been done here). And you ended up on top. What luck!
If this is not okay with you, let me know.
By the way, I share the belief of many that we are in the midst of an accelerating global spiritual transformation. AYP is doing its part to try and help the process along by offering an open source of effective integrated spiritual practices to everyone. Why not? It is time for human evolution to move on ... the "rapture" can be seen in that way as a positive event.
Thank you for your valuable contributions to the discussion, and all the best!
The guru is in you.
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 1:30:42 PM
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@yogani: I like random events ! And according to science there is
cause and effect. Random events are events which just cannot be
explained yet. So, Let's keep continuing the thread as it is now.
With Love and Light
Wolfgang |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 2:07:55 PM
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Hi Wolfgang:
Thank you for your understanding.
Incidently, your randomly placed starting post was a good answer to Etherfish's initial question and turned out to be the perfect beginning for this renamed topic.
So, was any of this random? 
The guru is in you. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2006 : 7:16:45 PM
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Hey, I think they got it wrong and it's not "rapture", it's "rupture". I think some of us are going to poke a big enuff hole in the veil of maya that seems to seperate us all and a whole lotta God's gonna come pourin'out! |
Edited by - alan on May 17 2006 7:56:15 PM |
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Global Rapture
