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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 04:39:48 AM
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A thought comes to mind. I understand that now I have to work hard at cleansing and purifying my neuro-biological system because of all the traumas and bad karma I accumulated over past lifes, but how did I get into that inpure state in the first place? How/what was I like as a new-born soul? I would have thought I started of "purely divine". How on earth did I then manage to get inpure and have to start purifying all over again? It doesn't make sense. I mean in a pure state I would not "fallen into sin".
Any thoughts? |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 06:10:32 AM
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| I think the Tibetan Buddhists would say you started in the lower realms (Hell or Animal Realms) and only entered the Human realm after removing sufficient amounts of Karma in those realms. So even though you have entered the Human realm you would still have lots of Karm ato deal with. I think even the Lesser God and God realms are considered inferior to the Human realm because it is almost impossible to follow the Dharma, but this is just one belief system. I'm sure others would have a different take on it. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 06:46:13 AM
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quote:
How on earth did I then manage to get inpure and have to start purifying all over again? It doesn't make sense. I mean in a pure state I would not "fallen into sin".
when one thinks that he -she is a separate entity from the Self ,one takes birth,this is the orginal sin....through Vichara (enquiry) one realizes again the Oneness, thoughts and mind are killed,this is resurection into infinity of the Self |
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 08:04:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
How on earth did I then manage to get inpure and have to start purifying all over again?
Any thoughts?
Because you are human... and we all make mistakes  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 08:42:41 AM
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Yes I think we were born pure, but the people around you teach you to believe the illusions of maya, and you need those people in order to survive. Your karma is put on hold for a little while when you are helpless.
Personally I don't think bad karma is all bad. It is more like a price we pay for all we have learned and mistakes that were made because of misunderstandings.
So in my opinion, we have gained a lot of knowledge through births and deaths. Many of us see it all as bad, because we have gone full circle learning all the knowledge, and now we have to pay the price to return to purity. It is like going on vacation, then paying for it later. All the fun's over and you just have to pay.
In the case of karma, there is no way to pay beforehand because it is dependent on your own actions.
It is not that difficult to adopt a good attitude about karma. You can stop focusing on what seems like an endless difficult task. You just decide there is no end in sight, and enjoy life. Karma is just a little more weight in your backpack, but you lift weights to exercise, so it's no big deal. |
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 08:51:46 AM
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From the translations of the Heart Sutra:
Shariputra,
form does not differ from emptiness,
emptiness does not differ from form.
That which is form is emptiness,
that which is emptiness form.
The same is true of feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
Shariputra,
all dharmas are marked with emptiness;
they do not appear or disappear,
are not tainted or pure,
do not increase or decrease.
Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 09:32:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
How on earth did I then manage to get inpure and have to start purifying all over again?
Just like your physical body might become dirty if you do not take a bath for few days. The soul too catches dirt overtime and needs a good bath.
Luckily, unlike the physical body, the soul does not deteriorate by the dirt that covers it. The soul is like a diamond which can remain underneath dirt for eternity and still retain its purity as new as ever.
Meditation is a good spiritual bath for the soul.
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 09:53:42 AM
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If you don't believe in past lives, or karma for that matter, then it puts us in a bit of a pickle. They all seem like good theories because they fit how we try to comprehend it all, but... all of it could be wrong. Except the practices of course.
I don't worry about stuff like that.
It just seems strange having to hold your breath, cross your eyes, pinch your butt cheeks and stick your tongue in your skull to get 'spiritually clean' it's rather bizarre! Nice though.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2011 : 02:55:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by woosa
It just seems strange having to hold your breath, cross your eyes, pinch your butt cheeks and stick your tongue in your skull to get 'spiritually clean' it's rather bizarre! Nice though.
Ever heard of Moola shodhana and Bahiskrita dhauti?
Moola shodhana: is done by inserting the middle finger into the rectum and rotating it clockwise, then anticlockwise. Make sure the fingernail is cut short, and if necessary, you can put some non irritating oil on the finger to lubricate the anus. The "Gherand Samhita" also recommends the use of a turmeric root instead of the finger, and starting by sitting in utkatasana.
Bahiskrita dhauti: This is a very difficult practice unless you are an advanced hatha yogi. It involves standing navel deep in clean water, pushing the rectum out and washing it in the hands. The "Gherand Samhita" states, "It is not easily available even to the gods" (1:23).
http://www.yogamag.net/archives/199...dhauti.shtml
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2011 : 03:51:36 AM
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Interesting answers. Thks everyone.
So I either came from the lower realms or for some obscure reason decided I was seperate from the Self and took birth or I am pure but just got dirty in this physical reality and need a good spiritual bath before going back. 
I think I have to think it out some more
Sey |
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2011 : 07:48:35 AM
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quote:
Moola shodhana: is done by inserting the middle finger into the rectum and rotating it clockwise, then anticlockwise
Thanks Mangima for sharing that with me. I was eating peanut butter on toast at the time of reading!  |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2011 : 08:14:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by woosa
quote:
Moola shodhana: is done by inserting the middle finger into the rectum and rotating it clockwise, then anticlockwise
Thanks Mangima for sharing that with me. I was eating peanut butter on toast at the time of reading!
Be glad, I was going to send you a video link of how its done.
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2011 : 4:33:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
How on earth did I then manage to get inpure and have to start purifying all over again? It doesn't make sense. I mean in a pure state I would not "fallen into sin".
Any thoughts?
It is all the drama of Lord Siva. He is just laughing at us...after seeing us
If there are no movies in this world how are we going to be happy?
We are just playing the role of actors/actress by born in this world...Each jenma (birth) of us is no more than a scene in His movie. Once a scene is over (i.e. once we die) the same actor/actress will play another role (reborn again as another person)...
If no one is acting (if we are not born), how Siva will enjoy?
Well, we are part of Him...(I mean our conscious is part of Him). He just separated part his own self (consciousness) and made it impure by mixing with Maya so that this universe comes into existence...remember if there is no Maya there is no universe...there is no you... and no me... remember Siva is no more than the Pure Energy...So, You will be pure energy and Me too...like Siva
But you need to remember that Maya itself formed out of the Pure Energy to make it impure...So, how does a pure Energy can give birth to some thing that makes itself impure....Isn't this drama?
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Edited by - showup on Aug 19 2011 2:43:00 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2011 : 4:50:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I think I have to think it out some more
I would recommend the opposite.  Trying to figure this stuff out with the mind is most likely only going to create more obstruction and difficulties. I would recommend to just continue with the practices and let go of trying to understand stuff like this. After all, can you really KNOW the answers to these questions? Just relax, do your practices and continue to enjoy your life.
Much Love!
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2011 : 01:04:51 AM
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The 'impure state' came about naturally when, from my understanding of taoist philosophy, the undifferentiated primordial energy initiated (and continues to do so every moment) movement within pre-celestial existence to create the post-celestial as experienced by the mind. Now by what I figure and from what I read, post-celestial existence and mind are co-dependent, and the rise of impurity is really the mind's arising as it goes against the way of nature (symbolic representations/abstractions like survival, as opposed to instinctual drives and reactions). This came about as the undifferentiated primordial energy, which sustains and infuses post-celestial existence, created its own 'differentiation' into the three treasures that correspond to the body and mind, rendering humanity (the nervous system) at the intersection point of the earth (physical) and sky (non-physical/Akasha?). Now the sensation-reaction (qualia) to the perceived impurity could in fact be the impetus that recalls the mind back to its original nature (undifferentiated pre-celestial oneness) because the mind-body, by way of its placement midway between earth and sky, already contains the essence of its True Nature (the three treasures united and un-manifested are actually primordial energy). Again, the obstructions and impurities could be the result of the mind meeting resistance as it goes against the flow of Nature, while the associated affect components (ex. suffering) could in fact be the emerging realization of one's true nature (sensing the three treasures all at once, giving a direct glimpse of their roots, undifferentiated primal energy) coming to terms with an apparent duality/separateness. Making use of the three treasures, applying them skillfully, and the Center (the witness) re-emerges within post-celestial existence (the miracle of enlightenment), and so one can flow with the way of Nature (what AYP calls stillness in action) without any resistance, which also means no inner obstructions to the innate bliss of primordial energy.
The common threads running between different traditions and people's experiences are hard to miss the deeper the search goes, but once the path is found, luggage is just dead weight. |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2011 : 04:13:27 AM
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Hello Aum, what an elegant and beautiful way to describe it. Really got a lot out of your explanation.
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2011 : 10:18:17 AM
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hello stevenbhow,
and thank you. Likewise, I find it incredible for people here describing parts of those ancient philosophies in 'real-time' from experience with AYP and related systems.
The very best of satsangs to be around (and take part of!) |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2011 : 04:51:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I think I have to think it out some more
I would recommend the opposite. Trying to figure this stuff out with the mind is most likely only going to create more obstruction and difficulties. I would recommend to just continue with the practices and let go of trying to understand stuff like this. After all, can you really KNOW the answers to these questions? Just relax, do your practices and continue to enjoy your life.
Much Love!
Dear Carson
Why are you uncomfortable with this question?
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2011 : 05:34:59 AM
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Hi Sey,
From the perspective of the New Age movement, the "new souls" are pure but they lack wisdom, or, not lack wisdom, but just have not experienced some aspects of consciousness like the experience of duality. They come to this world or other places to experience it. along the way they may get "dirty" and get stuck in the duality thinking, and begin to believe many beliefs. so they get stuck and come back again and again, till they begin to really get wound up and suffer, then they've have enough and want to get released. But it is not all for nothing cos they have experienced duality all the way and would not want to return in the end (or maybe they would still have a small desire, which would cause a bit more suffering untill they've had enough of it).
That is the New Age perspective from what I understand.....
I like CarsonZi's reply though 
Better to let it all go |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2011 : 06:32:41 AM
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Life springs from the supreme, unmoving, timeless all, as it must.
There is no 'bad Karma' there is only the actions that obscure the truth.
If you walk around with your eyes closed you tend to bump into things, the more you cloud the obvious by identifying with the body/mind, the harder it is to see the truth.
Directing desire outward to identify even more strongly with the false are the actions of Karma. Karma is a mind generated concept born of the false association and not the truth. If you create the belief of Karma, then it becomes part of the world. Outside of this self deception Karma does not exist.
The belief that you were born at all is where it goes wrong. All that is a world built on memory, there is no past or future, only now. It is beyond souls and Karma. Everything else seems to me to be trappings of complexity, that add to a hugely complex and rich design that has resulted in suffering. |
Edited by - karl on Aug 18 2011 06:44:56 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2011 : 09:49:48 AM
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Hi SeySorciere
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Dear Carson
Why are you uncomfortable with this question?
Who said I was uncomfortable? 
The reason I said what I did above was simply because in my experience trying to answer questions like this with the mind only leads to more questions, and more questions, and MORE questions, leaving the mind spinning and even more unsatisfied then it was when you originally asked the question.
What I have found is that when the question is released, when we let go of trying to answer the question with the mind, the answers begin to surface on their own (they come from "within"). The answers are often experienced as a "wordless knowing" and is not something we could really convey to another, but this "wordless knowing" is often more then enough to satisfy the mind's desire for an answer.
I personally don't think that anyone could ever answer the questions you have asked, so I don't see any point to trying to answer them, furthering the "non-relational inquiry," and instead suggest that you drop these questions into silence and allow any possible answers to surface from within. When you do this, the answers that come (or don't) will be infinitely more "satisfying" then any answers that come from someone else. Let the mind relax, let these questions go into silence, and just go out and enjoy playing on the beach and cooking dinner.
Love!
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2011 : 7:24:14 PM
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| I think an inquisitive, inquiring mind is a great thing :) |
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naina_91
Azerbaijan
6 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2011 : 10:10:38 AM
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Hi All,
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
What I have found is that when the question is released, when we let go of trying to answer the question with the mind, the answers begin to surface on their own (they come from "within"). The answers are often experienced as a "wordless knowing" and is not something we could really convey to another, but this "wordless knowing" is often more then enough to satisfy the mind's desire for an answer.
Time and again I have found this to be the most appropriate thing to do...whenever there is something which can not be comprehended by the mind I just let it go during one of my silent periods and lo and behold the answer comes up from within...it may take hours/days and sometimes weeks but that is it....
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2011 : 03:44:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by naina_91
Time and again I have found this to be the most appropriate thing to do...whenever there is something which can not be comprehended by the mind I just let it go during one of my silent periods and lo and behold the answer comes up from within...it may take hours/days and sometimes weeks but that is it...
Same here, it works really well! |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 01:51:30 AM
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agreed
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 08:50:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by naina_91
Hi All,
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
What I have found is that when the question is released, when we let go of trying to answer the question with the mind, the answers begin to surface on their own (they come from "within"). The answers are often experienced as a "wordless knowing" and is not something we could really convey to another, but this "wordless knowing" is often more then enough to satisfy the mind's desire for an answer.
Time and again I have found this to be the most appropriate thing to do...whenever there is something which can not be comprehended by the mind I just let it go during one of my silent periods and lo and behold the answer comes up from within...it may take hours/days and sometimes weeks but that is it....
We call it samyama. |
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New Souls
