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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 9:23:04 PM
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here is a good list of asanas for depression with detailed pics and explanation.
http://www.yogajournal.com/newtoyoga/864_1.cfm
Once you go there you can scroll down to DEPRESSION SEQUENCE. Good list of asanas for dealing with depression. |
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tros
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2006 : 06:21:35 AM
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Wow. This is a great forum. I did not expect this thread to keep going this long. Jim, your 35 years of depression show in the way you write about it. I didn't even realize that I was indulging myself with depression, but when I read it here I knew instantly that this is exactly what I was doing. My problem was that I was raised to not believe in depression, that depression was just something that happened to weak-willed, self-indulgent people. Once I realized that I have innate deppressive tendencies I went back and forth between trying to overcome, failing, and then victimizing myself.
Western psychology only works if you victimize yourself. I see a therapist because I am on a medical leave from school. I have to go if I want to return to school and keep my scholarship. I hate it. It is immensly useless to me. This thread has been more helpful to me than my entire time in therapy. Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by meg
It wasn't lost on me, Alan. :) But, ya know, drugs can take you there too. The question is, can they bring you back? Or, do their benefits spill over into daily life, once the high is gone? Sometimes they very definitely can bring you o'er the rainbow and back again. Other times they leave you empty-headed and spent. The AYP method is, well, methodical, and slower, but deeper, and with lasting results. The point is that it's all here ----------> X <---------- and in each moment we can uncover that, or let it remain buried.
See, this is how I can tell that some of you are confused when I use the word "drugs". LSD does not work like other drugs. There is no "coming down". You don't come back. You just stay out there and eventually get used to it. The value of the experience comes from what you do while you are affected, not from the drug itself. With acid there is an intense impulse to hold on to the experience afterwards, and good for you if you can manage to do it. First you need to consciously let the benefits "spill over into everyday life" instead of bottling them up and being cynical and saying "It was just the drugs" like most people do. Doing this could be doing some kind of art or just talking to people about your experience.
For example, I just got done tripping on acid, and I thought of this thread. Since I was fortunate enough that you all carried on the conversation while I was gone, I get to share my thoughts with all you wonderful, open-minded people. Thank you! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2006 : 09:27:21 AM
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tros wrote:
"There is no "coming down". You don't come back. You just stay out there and eventually get used to it."
That's why you only have to do it once in a lifetime! |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2006 : 11:50:27 AM
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| Well said |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2006 : 2:10:16 PM
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| well, I don't know anyone who could integrate and be transformed by one trip in a lifetime. Perhaps that is an ideal but not very realistic. Was that your experience, Ether? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2006 : 3:00:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tros
My problem was that I was raised to not believe in depression, that depression was just something that happened to weak-willed, self-indulgent people.
It's actually true. But not at all in the way undepressed people express it (e.g. "you just need to perk yourself up, and get going!", etc etc). That's an unisightful, unhelpful jackhammer approach to a very small, precise, specific issue. And you only grok the issue if you meditate a lot or if you've closely observed your own depression. I've done both.
You, very specifically, need to catch your mind early as it starts to drift backward and forward in time, and gently bring it back to where you are now (be it to your silence, to the activity at hand, to motion/action, or to the beauty of the moment...there are many ways of doing this). Over and over. And while it's easy if you catch it early, you will suffer greatly if you let it escalate. Depressives think they face a tornado. I'm saying the tornado grows on nothingness out of a mere puff of wind...and only if you allow it.
Depression has nothing to do with any sort of bona fide sadness or pain. Depression stems from fixation on the unreal. The only thing that's real is right now. If, as happens from time to time, one experiences sadness and pain (even extreme sadness or pain) in the current moment (e.g. your pet hamster dies), those emotions are nothing at all like what a depressive feels. You can be sad or in pain without conflating into suffering. Only your mind can make you suffer. And only if you indulge it.
Depressives not only indulge it, but identify themselves with (i.e. fall in love with) their suffering. Which makes them spin further and further from the current moment as they follow their compulsion to steep more and more in the phantasmagorical past or future.
Depressives believe they are feeling life deeply. They are fooling themselves. You can only feel life deeply if you're actually present for it, rather than receding into a cocoon of fantasy and torture. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 16 2006 3:50:46 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 09:29:42 AM
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Originally posted by tros
My problem was that I was raised to not believe in depression, that depression was just something that happened to weak-willed, self-indulgent people.
I don't agree at all that depression is just something that happens to weak-willed, self-indulgent people. The meaning of those words is that there is something particularly weak-willed or self-indulgent about all people who get depressed, relative to people who do not. This is just false.
And I believe it not just a wrong idea, but a harmfully wrong one (like, for example an idea like "only weak-willed, self-indulgent people become disabled").
(I am aware that Jim, BTW, does not mean to approve of these words in the problemmatic meaning I am exposing. -- Jim's message is highly-specific, about certain dynamics of depression. Mine is specific about the dangerous and misleading implications of wording.)
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 17 2006 09:58:18 AM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 10:01:06 AM
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Main reasons for my depression are my introvertive nature, physical laziness which used to cause mental laziness.
I went into depressive kind of thinking since I was around 10 or 11 yrs old. I still remember the time before that when I dint know what depression meant. Initially I used to do think what am I doing? Why am I lazily sitting and brooding instead of going and acting. But I kind of loved this falling down or -ve building up as jim points out. I really used to enjoy that. Rather than going in life in the same mood or same straight road, I used to go down for sometime and then inspire myself to travel with renewed vigour and inspiration. I always thought I intelligently used it. There are times when it got out of control and there are times when because of this depression I underestimated myself and dint attempt goals which I can comfortably aim and reach.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 10:09:50 AM
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quote:
My problem was that I was raised to not believe in depression, that depression was just something that happened to weak-willed, self-indulgent people.
I can relate to that.. that's what made me stay in a depression for 32 years.. the most common statement made by family and friends.. you have everything a person could want.. why are you depressed? And for 32 years I tried to "snap" out of it.. for the next 4 I was on medication.. the last 2 on meditation... the difference was 1 alphabet.. but the effect was immeasurable.
I have one question though.. most of us here.. or maybe its just me.. go through emotional ups and down.. what David described as mood swings.. and many agreed was purification.. how do you know if it is purification going on.. and to just let it flow out.. or it is a depressive suffering like Jim said.."Depressives not only indulge it, but identify themselves with (i.e. fall in love with) their suffering."?
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 11:28:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
I kind of loved this falling down or -ve building up as jim points out. I really used to enjoy that. Rather than going in life in the same mood or same straight road, I used to go down for sometime and then inspire myself to travel with renewed vigour and inspiration.
As I said, the breezes are sweet. The tornado is not. It's a matter of staying conscious of this process, because the former can be controlled by a disciplined reigning in of the mind's coarse excesses, whereas nothing in the universe can stop a tornado.
As with AYP, depression is a lot less scary and wobbly and ambiguous when you understand the simplicity of its underpinnings. As with AYP, the side trips (or "experiences") can take you far, far adrift. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 17 2006 11:30:48 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 11:31:33 AM
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Shanti - I think the most obvious answer (indeed, maybe too obvious) is the duration of the depression. Not being a chronic depressive, I'm not familiar with the quality of that kind of depression vs. a mood swing, but my guess is that a true depression is darker and located more deeply in the body than a simple bad mood, which is located more toward the surface. Maybe someone who has experience with both will correct me.
I was rather depressed last week, for no apparent reason at the time. I decided to hole myself away for the weekend in silence to try to grasp the cause, thinking that the isolation was what was needed to pull me out of it. (That's always worked in the past). Turns out that was the LAST thing I needed. What I came away with from the weekend is that I"m spending far too much time alone, and I need to connect with friends more often. This is a huge shift for me - I've never been terribly social - and I'm thinking now that meditation has altered this aspect of my personality.
I"m wondering if some people get depressed b'c their behavioural patterns have altered without their knowledge. If, for example, a person has always tended to fill up her free time visiting with friends, she may at some point need more time alone, but she doesn't necessarily KNOW this; it hasn't yet come to consciousness. She continues to socialize and so on, but becomes increasingly depressed, as this behaviour really no longer suits her. It seems to her that life has become meaningless and her relationships are all dull, when in fact the problem is in the fact that she hasn't yet realized her need for solitude. By the time this realization occurs to her, the depression may have sunk to a depth that isn't so easily extricated.
Just some thoughts. I'm quite surprised to find this new, social aspect of myself. So are my friends, all of whom I shall see this week. :) |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 11:39:37 AM
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| BTW, I spent a lot of time last week doing the chest opening exercise that everyone's been lauding - the backward-bend-over-a-brick asana. Took me a while to work through the nausea, but once I did, I was able to stay there for a long time, even to fall asleep. It's an awesome heart opener, and I'm grateful to whomever brought it to the forum. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 12:33:38 PM
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I wonder if there was something in the air last week.. went through 5 days of depression and migraine myself.. better today.. though not a 100% yet.. I can still smell the sweet breeze..
quote:
I"m wondering if some people get depressed b'c their behavioural patterns have altered without their knowledge.
I think you have got that right. My social life is busy.. and I guess my behavioral pattern has changed.. I don't like being with too many people.. I cannot stand the noise.. the mindless chatter.. I want to be alone.. wont happen in a while though.. so I may need a glass of grape juice, the fermented kind, to get me through the evening.. that always helps |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 2:49:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
I guess my behavioral pattern has changed.. I don't like being with too many people.. I cannot stand the noise.. the mindless chatter.. I want to be alone
That's a sign of overdoing in meditation, and it's a situation at odds with the goal of AYP, which is about smooth engagement with the world, not retreat from it. See my posting in this thread for more:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=661
Don't be TOO worried about it...could just be a stage. but if, over time, the irritation and anti-social feelings increase, I'd cut back meditation time very slightly (especially if you've snuck over 20 mins!).
Meg, with the chest opener, remember to move the block a few inches up and down. You hit other blocks. For the nausea, I think that's just from disorientation of your head being upside down. Try going in and out of it veeery slowly, it will help.
More nuances to try:
remember to loosen all tension in the shoulders. Trust! In fact, loosen everything, letting the flesh, the meat, of your body drape down on the sides. but keep, at center body (longitudinally), the spine arch itself graceful and valiant - work on making no part of it unconscious. And don't let your legs flop; keep feet together and flexed perpendicular to the ground, flex kneecaps, and rotate legs inward from the hips. Be symmetrical. Symmetry in and of itself helps depression. Strip stuff down.
For more info, see an Iyengar style teacher. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 17 2006 2:52:38 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 6:06:56 PM
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Thanks for the fine tuning, Jim.
Interestingly, I believe that it's meditation that has softened my edges, and made me want to be with people more. In a word, there's just more of me to give. Never thought I'd see the day when I'd crave company, as I do today.
Shanti - we seem to be coming from 2 extremes, but arriving at the same place of balance. You seem to be very social, but are finding that you need more solitude than you used to. I've always been a loner, but am finding that I need more social involvement than I realized. Funny how this work can bring out the best in us, and help us find a comfortable balance in our lives. :) |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 11:17:21 PM
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Everyone should keep in mind that a person can easily over-do asanas as well as meditation, both can require self-pacing. I have learned (and relearned) this many times the hard way! If suddenly you are all using a block for chest opening and do it all the time, it feels good at first but as they say what goes up must come down.
Bottom line, asanas and meditation/ pranayama etc. release stored energy and can easily add up to too much release too quickly. Remember to self-pace. |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2006 : 11:31:10 PM
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I found a decent summary of a point I was previously trying to make, that periods of depression can sometimes be a known side effect of spiritual progress, and I don't mean problems of "pacing," but more the experience of "you can't go home again," while the destinations are still out of sight.
This is by Willigis Jager, a German Benedictine who teaches Zen and Christain contemplation, and was the teacher of a priest I've done Zen sittings with. Despite the title that still makes me chuckle as a Monty Python fan (Search for the Meaning of Life) it's an interesting book.
Jager talks about two kinds of depression, the "ordinary" kind where the ego is frustrated, and another kind, where the ego is threatened by spiritual practice, and fights back:
quote:
On the one hand, the ego level can no longer provide support; on the other hand, the new spiritual level has not been consolidated. It is this level that poses a threat to the ego and becomes a cause of fear....
At this stage the drive to preserve the ego can once again appear, and with even greater intensity. The ego makes a last tremendous effor, trying to defend itself with all its might, a struggle that often leads to a grueling contest between both levels. The elementary forces of the ego attempt to keep their domain intact, but the power of the deeper levels of consciousness repeatedly calls this into question.
The really difficult thing about this situation is that the cleansing process doesn't spare the realm of religion, so that even there, certainties disappear. As John of the Cross said, there is no longer any support--even in God. The sense of security that religion once supplied melts away. Previously we could feel safe at least in the hand of the "divine Father," but this hand suddenly fails to bear us up. The tide of guilt feelings rises, culminating in the fear that our own failure is responsible for the whole problem.
It is at this point that the process of spiritual evolution has properly begun. What we take to be a psychic illness--or what some therapists define as such--is in reality a process of transformation. But to accept that, when we are totally caught up in it, is enormously difficult.
Willigis Jager, Search for the Meaning of Life, Ligouri/Triumph, Ligouri, Missouri, 2003, pp183-184
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2006 : 04:18:57 AM
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quote:
BTW, I spent a lot of time last week doing the chest opening exercise that everyone's been lauding - the backward-bend-over-a-brick asana. Took me a while to work through the nausea, but once I did, I was able to stay there for a long time, even to fall asleep. It's an awesome heart opener, and I'm grateful to whomever brought it to the forum.
Meg, just thought of something so I am going to run it by you.. not sure if my last 5 days of down in the dumps was because, a lot of stuff got dislodged at once with this back bend.. ummm... keep an eye on things how they go.. I was enjoying it too so I stayed there a long time too... Maybe it had nothing to do with this.. just be careful.
PS: I did not see Anthem's post.. he confirms my suspicions.."If suddenly you are all using a block for chest opening and do it all the time, it feels good at first but as they say what goes up must come down." |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 18 2006 08:05:19 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2006 : 04:25:18 AM
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quote:
I found a decent summary of a point I was previously trying to make, that periods of depression can sometimes be a known side effect of spiritual progress, and I don't mean problems of "pacing," but more the experience of "you can't go home again," while the destinations are still out of sight.
This is by Willigis Jager, a German Benedictine who teaches Zen and Christain contemplation, and was the teacher of a priest I've done Zen sittings with. Despite the title that still makes me chuckle as a Monty Python fan (Search for the Meaning of Life) it's an interesting book.
Jager talks about two kinds of depression, the "ordinary" kind where the ego is frustrated, and another kind, where the ego is threatened by spiritual practice, and fights back:
quote:
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On the one hand, the ego level can no longer provide support; on the other hand, the new spiritual level has not been consolidated. It is this level that poses a threat to the ego and becomes a cause of fear....
At this stage the drive to preserve the ego can once again appear, and with even greater intensity. The ego makes a last tremendous effor, trying to defend itself with all its might, a struggle that often leads to a grueling contest between both levels. The elementary forces of the ego attempt to keep their domain intact, but the power of the deeper levels of consciousness repeatedly calls this into question.
The really difficult thing about this situation is that the cleansing process doesn't spare the realm of religion, so that even there, certainties disappear. As John of the Cross said, there is no longer any support--even in God. The sense of security that religion once supplied melts away. Previously we could feel safe at least in the hand of the "divine Father," but this hand suddenly fails to bear us up. The tide of guilt feelings rises, culminating in the fear that our own failure is responsible for the whole problem.
It is at this point that the process of spiritual evolution has properly begun. What we take to be a psychic illness--or what some therapists define as such--is in reality a process of transformation. But to accept that, when we are totally caught up in it, is enormously difficult.
Willigis Jager, Search for the Meaning of Life, Ligouri/Triumph, Ligouri, Missouri, 2003, pp183-184
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Ranger, I'm very grateful for this post, this has been my experience.
I have no time to say anything further but thouoght it important to acknowledge it. 
Louis |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2006 : 07:42:11 AM
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quote:
On the one hand, the ego level can no longer provide support; on the other hand, the new spiritual level has not been consolidated. It is this level that poses a threat to the ego and becomes a cause of fear....
At this stage the drive to preserve the ego can once again appear, and with even greater intensity. The ego makes a last tremendous effor, trying to defend itself with all its might, a struggle that often leads to a grueling contest between both levels. The elementary forces of the ego attempt to keep their domain intact, but the power of the deeper levels of consciousness repeatedly calls this into question.
The really difficult thing about this situation is that the cleansing process doesn't spare the realm of religion, so that even there, certainties disappear. As John of the Cross said, there is no longer any support--even in God. The sense of security that religion once supplied melts away. Previously we could feel safe at least in the hand of the "divine Father," but this hand suddenly fails to bear us up. The tide of guilt feelings rises, culminating in the fear that our own failure is responsible for the whole problem.
It is at this point that the process of spiritual evolution has properly begun. What we take to be a psychic illness--or what some therapists define as such--is in reality a process of transformation. But to accept that, when we are totally caught up in it, is enormously difficult.
Willigis Jager, Search for the Meaning of Life, Ligouri/Triumph, Ligouri, Missouri, 2003, pp183-184
Thank you Ranger. This is the exact thing I am facing right now.. the confusion that I have been talking about.. a part of me has moved way ahead (spiritual part) and a part of me does not want to move and is pulling me back(the ego).. Anthem, once more someone addresses the exact same thing I need some input on...."Serendipity I guess!"
I almost let my ego win.. but the spiritual pull is too strong.
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Edited by - Shanti on Apr 18 2006 08:09:52 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2006 : 11:04:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Meg, just thought of something so I am going to run it by you.. not sure if my last 5 days of down in the dumps was because, a lot of stuff got dislodged at once with this back bend.. ummm... keep an eye on things how they go.. I was enjoying it too so I stayed there a long time too... Maybe it had nothing to do with this.. just be careful.
Thanks for that, Shanti. I'll monitor my moods. (I think mine is better labelled a mood than a depression). I'm not doing the asana in question as much or for as long, now that the mood has passed. I've a little more perspective on last week's mood now, and I see that there was a pattern of behaviour (or two) that were no longer serving me, and that in fact were obstructing my view. Just some residual ego-garbage for which I had absolutely no use. It's not a done deal, meaning that the pattern of behaviour is still functioning, and will take some time to dislodge it. But now I see it in its full glory, and have the insight to make the necessary adjustments in my behaviour to dismember it. Cool, huh? I'm grateful for the crappy mood. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2006 : 12:13:15 PM
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| Meg, this morning I thought of the same thing.. these crappy moods come and really get me so exhausted.. and then they lift and with it goes a part of me I did not know I had... sometimes I don't even know if something left.. but I definitely feel lighter.. I guess going forward I will not let them bother me as much.. easy to say when I am out of it right?? Yep, "I'm grateful for the crappy mood" too. |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2006 : 7:34:41 PM
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quote:
Shanti writes
This is the exact thing I am facing right now.. the confusion that I have been talking about.. a part of me has moved way ahead (spiritual part) and a part of me does not want to move and is pulling me back(the ego)..
To pull this into the realm of my own experience; last summer I had a long chunk of time off from work, and some things came together and I got started on a creative project that's been simmering on the back burner for several decades. The release of creative energy combined with the energy already moving from the AYP practices has a lot of positive aspects and some that are hard to handle.
One of the hard-to-handle things is that since about Nov-Dec, I've found it increasingly hard to participate in any of the spiritual communities where I've found nourishment in the past. On occasion I've done retreats with both Zen and Christian meditation groups, and I've fairly regularily attended an extremely liberal Episcopal church, but now it seems like my (evolving) aspirations and beliefs are outside even these open places. Like now I find much of the liturgy just too annoying to take; the Old Testament, and Paul and the Nicene Creed are like nails on a chalkboard.
So what? Well, I have friends there and such separations aren't easy. And over almost 30 years of marriage my wife and I have always shared at least some spiritual practices, and I'm not happy about letting that go. And also, I think it's wise for anyone seriously involved in contemplative practice to have some kind of "sangha." Finally, I guess some inner child part of me still hears my departed, bible thumping grandmother letting me know I'm on a highway to hell.
I was talking about this in February with a Zen-teaching priest freind, who more or less shrugged and said "So what? Liturgys and creeds are just words. Your real task is to figure out who is bothered by the words?" Maybe so. Haven't done it yet. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2006 : 8:03:33 PM
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Ranger.. this too will pass and you will find a way to enjoy these "spiritual communities".. there may not be the same kind of attraction there was before.. but there will be a different kind of joy in it.. Something you will feel deep inside you.. Like Yogani says.. nothing would have changed and yet everything would have changed..
A week back my kids participated in a religious ceremony at our temple.. they sang devotional songs. For the first time in my life.. I actually sat through an hour of the songs and then an hour of the prayer service that followed.. and not once did I look at the clock.. or wondered when they would serve lunch.. or thought about the million chores I had to finish at home.. I just closed my eyes and sat there enjoying the vibrations of the songs and mantras.. and could feel this energy filling me up.. there was energy radiating from a point in my head and a point in my heart.. First time in my life I actually enjoyed something religious.. I actually felt close to God in a temple.
You on the other hand have an advantage.. you were always close to God.. in my heart I know you will soon enjoy it again.. just give it a little time..
-Shanti |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 18 2006 9:09:42 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
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drugs, depression, and yoga
