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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 12:54:28 PM
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Every time I tip my head back in this asana (or any asana), I feel like I'm going to toss my cookies.  I seem to be averse to inversions. I'm told that it will subside with regular practice, but it hasn't yet. Admittedly, my asana is anything but regular. Does anyone else have this problem? All I have to do is think about tipping my head back and I want to ralph.  I used to have tinnitus, and suspect this may contribute. I'd be curious to hear if anyone with tinnitus has this problem, and if you've found any solutions.
I think I'll post this again as a new thread, since it's hopped off on its own trail. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 09:39:08 AM
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David and Jim, I would like to thank you for this suggestion.  I could not have even imagined the effect it has had on me... Its been 2 days that I have done this.. My chest has really opened up.. I can feel it when I meditate.. My mantra generally stayed at my throat and chest.. but since yesterday it is not resting any place.. it moves freely through my upper body.. if you know what I mean.. I cannot put it in words what this has done to me in terms of meditation... and in just 2 days. I used to have trouble breathing.. getting my lungs full of air.. this has opened up my lungs too. My back was really sore this morning.. but the asana's to stretch the back released the soreness a lot. I would agree with David on... quote:
It has proven to be to me one of the best Yogic gifts in quite a while
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Edited by - Shanti on Apr 12 2006 09:42:13 AM |
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decon
6 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 11:51:41 PM
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I ordered the book by Judith Lasater an am interested in checking out the relaxation technique. I spend way too much time leaning forward at computers all day and I've felt blocks in my chest area. I'm hoping it can help me to feel more open and have more energy!
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 07:27:51 AM
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Hi Decon.. you made a very interesting point.. I work on the computer all day.. never associated that with my chest area blockage.. Thanks. Let me know if that book helps you
-Shanti |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 11:12:43 AM
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dont' thank me, thank Iyengar yoga.
A few quick pointers on depression:
this book gives more tips on restorative yoga (yoga done with blocks and such): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0962713848
Please buy wooden yoga blocks. Plastic and foam ones should NOT be used to support your entire body weight.
depressed people always have caved-in chests. The move with the block reverses this. But also, as you go about your day, supplement by thinking about making your collarbone WIDE (all caps because not just a little bit). Don't necessarily squeeze shoulders back hard into military position....do what I suggest and no more: collarbone WIDE (pull it, laterally, tight like a string). Chest WIDE.
A good rule of thumb for depressed people: when in doubt, choose action. Go out and do stuff. Engage. If you simply can't....then there's no doubt. But when there's doubt, choose action. Someone invites you to a movie and you're just not sure....go. Even if it's a sucky movie. This is an easy habit to acquire.
ONe very important factor of depression is that it's the result of a certain amount of self-indulgence. You'll find, in the pit of your depression, that it's all about letting your mind roam back in time (regrets over past experience) and forward in time (worry and mulling over future experience). This insight proved helpful for me: right here, right now, there's no reason to be depressed. The depression is always in the past or the future. It's over literally nothing, because we exist only in the present. Stay with what's happening now as much as possible. Until you advance in yoga, you'll have trouble keeping your mind in the present, but at LEAST (this is the crucial part) learn to not super-indulge your mind as it lingers in past and future. Depressives don't just allow this, they encourage and enjoy it. They stew and steep in it, and the suffering feels good to them. Cut that habit.
Very very helpful (especially concurrently with the tip above): aerobic exercise and a strong asana practice (I recommend Iyengar; there are teachers everwhere; see <http://www.iynaus.org/Search/search.aspx>). Be a jock. Big difference.
Try to center your awareness in your heart rather than your head. Chest wide! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 13 2006 11:17:11 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 1:12:23 PM
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Thanks Jim.
This is working so well for me so far that there is one question that is popping into my mind: any idea how long approximately, do I have to look forward to potential continued improvements?
ONe very important factor of depression is that it's the result of a certain amount of self-indulgence. You'll find, that it's all about letting your mind roam back in time[] and forward in time (worry and mulling over future experience).
Ooops. I suppose looking forward to future good things isn't too bad -- though it is certainly not as good as being blissfully in the present.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 4:40:44 PM
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| David, yes, this is a good example of granting latitude to let the mind roam back and ahead. I'm not saying one must immediately adopt a saintly in-the-present-moment scope right this sec to overcome depression. But there is a gigunda diff between that and the self-indulgent time-surfing of a depressive. Reign in (seriously!). And it helps a LOT to move your awareness to your heart. Even a little bit helps. The heart doesn't ask "when?" or "how much?" |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 13 2006 4:45:12 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 4:51:05 PM
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Nooooo, nooooo, I waaaaant my FUTURE,
I waaaaaant my FUTURE!!!!
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 4:59:26 PM
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Hey David was that the grapes talking? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 11:42:08 PM
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I had a touch of depression today...first time in a long time. Actually, I think it's a good thing...bumpiness from a recent opening.
I know the slippery slope well - the tendency to mire in negativity, to let the mind spin endlessly into flights of painful grasping at nothingness. I could feel it building momentum. Depression can be like a tornado...seeming emptiness can build a destructive force completely on its own.
I followed my own advice. I reached out from my negative reverie and summoned up silence....just the bit of it I could touch while walking around and going about my business. It broke up the depressive inertia, I was back to existing when and where I actually was. But a little while later, it snuck back on me. And I went to silence again. And it broke up again. And I resisted the depressive tendency to wail "what's the use....I have to keep FIGHTING it!" I just gently applied discipline. I wouldn't permit myself to go down that slope and play that game. Like alcoholics must choose not to drink one day at a time, so must depressives keep hemming in unhelpful impulses. Do it enough, and it will never turn into a tornado. Just an occasional light breeze (which actually gives life some richness and contrast and creative friction). It's absolutely harmless...so long as you learn to never let your mind spin off on it, fueling "much ado about nothing".
It's a matter of imposing mental discipline not to drift into the pain of endlessly mulling over past and future. Training, no more and no less. You mind may slip into reverie, but you ought not let it stick there, digging a deeper and deeper hole.
Tomorrow I'll wake up refreshed, and it's a gym day. Should be fine. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 14 2006 11:19:07 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 10:03:35 AM
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| I hope you are feling better today. Sorry.... |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 11:17:24 AM
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| Shanti, your feelings are appreciated, but please reread. I wasn't "feeling bad". I just felt an impulse arise (which, unchecked, would have eventually spun into a tornado), and deflected it by moving to silence and pulling myself out of the depressive reverie. So no sympathy necessary! :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 14 2006 11:18:35 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 11:27:48 AM
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Wow, Jim. Inspiring indeed. No sympathy here - that was a feat. I"m mildly depressed and have been fighting indulgence myself. My therapy has been in reading the Heart Sutra:
form is emptiness, emptiness is form
It blows the mind, opens the heart. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 1:45:19 PM
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I LOVE the heart sutra. But you needn't resort to heavy spiritual artillery. I've been struggling to explain it (I think it's getting clearer, though), but depression is incredibly simple. Let me try again, maybe I'll hit it square on this time:
Depression is a destructive tornado built on nothingness (we know it's nothingness.... ask a depressive "what are you depressed about?" and no answer is possible, because it's literally insubstantial, it's all just about the mind getting fixated in fantasy and dull rumination).
When little tinges of negativity arise, depressives do the wrong thing: they latch on and fixate, which intensifies things. They retreat into regrets of past and worries of future. They replay kernals of negative thought over and over and over again (if they could just watch themselves, they'd be horrified at their own self-indulgence!) until they provoke a real physiological response.
Unchecked, it turns into a tornado. But it's suprisingly easy to reverse if you catch yourself early. Don't allow yourself to ruminate. Take your mind out of reverie (even if it feels good or insightful...depressives fall in love with their depressive reveries, it's the biggest problem). Your mind will keep trying to return to reverie. Just stay on it, gently and non self-critically pulling it back (exactly like returning to mantra in meditation!). Go to silence, go to activity, go to exercise, go to the birds and the trees - anything but flights of fantasy and reverie.
Don't try to fix the depression. Just keep your mind out of the past and future, neither of which actually exists (the only place that exists is NOW, and there is no depression in the now).
As you keep tethering your mind from reverie, you'll notice 1. how very often it happens, and 2. how light the initial impulse is (though it's heavy indeed if you fail to brush it back). It's absolutely nothing. So learn to catch the impulse early, at the stage of mere nuisance!
Silence helps, because silence is always NOW.
It's about time. Depression is all about time. Control your mind's tendency to float around in time. Again, it's not spiritual practice per se. I'm not talking about existing 24/7 in the immediate flash of the moment, ala Be Here Now. Nothing that hard to attain! I'm just talking about not giving yourself slack to mentally waft around all over the place (gathering up bits of negativity like a swarm of bees collecting honey). It's not a spiritual thing. It's just basic self control (which depressives fail to develop, unless they work at it).
During my depressive period (i.e. the first 35 years of my life), when people would talk about out-of-body experiences, I'd chuckle, because I rarely had an in-body experience! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 14 2006 1:49:37 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 1:50:04 PM
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| note: i edited the above about a gazillion times. if you're reading along in real time, you may want to reload/refresh the page and read again. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 1:58:41 PM
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Leaving aside the clinical side of depression in this post. In terms of our daily lives it is natural and normal to not feel happy all the time, it is part of the world of duality. As Kahlil Gibran reminds us it takes great pain to know great pleasure.
Being afraid of being sad or down or becoming depressed can inadvertently create the reality we are trying to avoid. These feelings are also a natural part of human existence and can be great sources of energy for change. Keeping our mind focused on how we want to feel and how we want to be helps make it our reality.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 2:10:10 PM
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Well said.
But I need to note that there's nothing wrong with emotion. There's nothing wrong with sadness. It's more than normal, it's required for being human. But fixating on insubstantilal reverie and willfully loading up on negativity is another thing. It's just a bad habit.
The light breezes I've mentioned a couple times in this thread - the seeds of depression before the fixating tendency turns it into a tornado - are sweet. Just so long as you prevent yourself from aggregating sweet little breezes into a fearsome tornado. It's such a cliche, but.....all things in moderation! :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 14 2006 2:12:42 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 4:18:07 PM
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Hey! What happened to all the drugs man? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 4:25:32 PM
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You must be feeling good, Jim as you're using little smiley faces, which I've never seen you do. This depression must have suited you. It did me. I like what you've written and what Andrew has written as well.
Setting aside indulgence, and going for the direct experience of one's pain, whatever it may be, is a noble path, IMO. I could busy myself with a thousand tasks which are awaiting me, and indeed a few friends have encouraged me to do so. That would be denial, which is yet another form of indulgence. Pain is a good thing, and is, at the end of the day, vapor. That's the key - that's the heart sutra - all form, including feeling, is emptiness.
I'm sure you'll disagree with most of this. That's fine - we all have our own methods, and we all know what works for us. Some lock themselves away; some commune with nature and friends. It's all so good.
ps - Alan, we posted at the same time. Who needs drugs, dude? It's all here, uncovering itself in the moment. |
Edited by - Manipura on Apr 14 2006 5:23:13 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 4:43:11 PM
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Meg- I was using some light-humored sarcasm |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 5:33:18 PM
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| It wasn't lost on me, Alan. :) But, ya know, drugs can take you there too. The question is, can they bring you back? Or, do their benefits spill over into daily life, once the high is gone? Sometimes they very definitely can bring you o'er the rainbow and back again. Other times they leave you empty-headed and spent. The AYP method is, well, methodical, and slower, but deeper, and with lasting results. The point is that it's all here ----------> X <---------- and in each moment we can uncover that, or let it remain buried. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 5:48:05 PM
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Hey, I'm an old pro when it comes to drugs of all shapes and sizes as I posted on the first page of this thread 
In my todays, over-indulgance in an emotional response or a chocolate-chip cookie is a drug...they too can take you 'there' and spill over into daily life
There's nothing like the 'built in mechanism' of spinal breathing and meditation...and finding the Self in every Moment in every Self in the Moment of Love |
Edited by - alan on Apr 14 2006 5:49:56 PM |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 6:28:29 PM
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I will have to drop in more often! This is a fascinating thread with a lot of elements, and I wanted to throw out a few comments.
RE: Drugs. I came of age in the Bay Area during the sixties, the Summer of Love, etc. The Beatles went to India the year I graduated from high school. I wanted to go too, but instead stayed here and took a lot of acid, and most anything else I could get ahold of. I got clean and sober when I was thirty and got involved in SRF not long after, so for me it was a drug->yoga movement. Here's one thing that may interest the group: with few exceptions I never used narcotics. One of the exceptions, was pilfering some demerol my mother had left over after a surgery. The experience was ecstatic, and I never experienced anything like it until really feeling the spinal currents in yoga. That particular narcotic very closely emulated those moments when the currents feel like Ben-Gay inside the spine.
So I tend to think of most kinds of intoxication as being facsimilies of spiritual experiences. In a letter to Bill Wilson (co-founder of AA), Carl Jung pointed out that the Latin word for alchohol is spiritus, the same word used for Holy Spirit (spiritus sancti), and in his opinion one or the other would inevitably prevail in the life of an alchoholic ( Parabola, Summer 1987 "Addiction" issue).
RE Depression: I've probably had the low grade, dysthemia type depression in the background most of my life. Someone said depression is relatively "simple," and I disagree. Both intuitively and academically. A while ago I got a graduate degree in psychology, and I remember that more than any other diagnosis, recommended treatment approaches were complex and multi-disciplinary.
But without debating that, I think a certain kind of melancholy is linked with spiritual practice. First of all, people do not start serious spiritual practice because life is a cake walk. I got started in a 12 step program, and I didn't wind up there because I was having too much fun.
Secondly, spiritual literature describes certain "valid" spiritual crisis points that are really hard to distinguish from pathology, especially in this culture. One articulation of this is in John of the Cross. The "dark night of the soul," and "dark night of the spirit," with the intensity that he describes, would probably send many of us right to the doctor for medication.
Even the practice of bhakti, which has such a "wholesome" feeling to it most of the time, can suddenly change from a kitten into a tiger, and seem a bit like being depressed. I think I've always really had a devotional bias, though I've expended energy to convince myself otherwise. Fueled by the AYP practices, there have times when the "practice" of bhakti takes on a life of it's own. Kind of like an amplified version of unrequited love at seventeen. I remember that in his Autobiography, Yogananda describes meeting a saint he believed was in communion with God, when he knew he wasn't. He said the experience pierced his heart, and he fell to the floor, "sobbing in agony." Try that in a public place and see how fast you get some meds!
Anyway, to sum up, one way I counteract depressive moods that I haven't heard mentioned, is to spend time with two trusted spiritual advisors - my dogs. I'm actually quite serious about dogs. I know an elderly gentleman who has a chihuahua, who confided that after his wife died, the little dog kept him going, and helped him come around to being able to enjoy life again.
enuf. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 6:46:13 PM
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Hi Ranger,
I enjoyed that..
quote:
That particular narcotic very closely emulated those moments when the currents feel like Ben-Gay inside the spine.
..so that's what it feels like
quote:
I didn't wind up there because I was having too much fun.
I kinda agree with that.. most of us here have had a touch of depression or something similar..
quote:
Even the practice of bhakti, which has such a "wholesome" feeling to it most of the time, can suddenly change from a kitten into a tiger, and seem a bit like being depressed.
Maybe its bhakti that leads us to depression without us knowing it?
Somewhere carried over from our past lives maybe?
quote:
Fueled by the AYP practices, there have times when the "practice" of bhakti takes on a life of it's own. Kind of like an amplified version of unrequited love at seventeen.
Oh! I agree with that
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is to spend time with two trusted spiritual advisors - my dogs.
humm.. love my dog.. but dont feel a spiritual connection. Sometimes wonder though, if we could be like them, unconditional love towards God.. think where we may have been.. |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 14 2006 7:10:29 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 7:41:16 PM
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Ranger - I enjoyed your post too. Please drop in more often. Bhakti can have a tinge of darkness (heaviness) to it at times, and it's a good insight (Shanti) that bhakti may lead us to depression without our knowing it. I've said elsewhere that bhakti = misplaced nostalgia. It's a fine line that we walk: sometimes separated from God, at other times at one with It. The former is bound to be a catalyst for some degree of angst. In any case, I've yet to meet a seeker who's a chucklehead.
I'm most comfortable with people who have some degree of angst and/or depression. They're so much more interesting. :) |
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drugs, depression, and yoga
