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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 02 2006 : 3:10:19 PM
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Hari Om
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Hello folks,
I thought I would get your opinion on this if you care to banter it about for a bit.
When was the last time you bought a car , site unseen? Didn't look at it , kick the tires, noth'n. " I'll take it" you said.
Is that kinda what the experience is for the pursuit of Enlightenment…? Has any one driven the end state? Do you know
You will like it? Yet the pursuit goes on each day , 2X per day for some, 4X for others.
We group ourselves together at AYP and discuss the 'ride' - I had this experience, or that experience; 'How do I stop
from ____________ ( fill in as you see fit) happening' , ' Why am I _____________ feeling like this?'. 'I am feeling bliss, uplifted, etc. but then is subsides'. I did a siddhi, but that is while I am meditation, then I am back to my world. It feels good, so I keep on do'n it.
But what of the destination? any road will take you there if its not understood, yet we're all on the bus!
Could it be this thing called faith ( sraddha)?
We have never test drove emancipation, never interviewed IT to see if wish to join the team???How can this be....
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 02 2006 9:08:51 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 08:15:14 AM
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| I'm not pursuing enlightenmnet. I'm just following my bhakti. I must have very little sraddha, because I don't care a bit about the "end state". I don't believe in "end states", and, anyway, I'm done with goals. |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 11:32:22 AM
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Dear Frank,
You always have such interesting topics…  I’m such a simple person, so I have a simple response.
I don’t know what else there is. I only know what this is—what is now. That’s the whole point of your question, rephrased…
I’m not sure I could understand what is next, while at this present stage of existence.
But I’ve had glimpses of what is to come along the path and it was a very good place to be and a very good way to be. 
I do the practices because they help me while in this current place. I do them because it feels right. I do them because I feel that there is growth and joy within.
People have been asking this for a very long time… In the 6th century BC, Thales of Miletus said, “Know thyself and thou shalt know the universe and the gods.”
Light and Love,
Kathy
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 12:42:52 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~~
Hello Kathy/Jim,
First, thanks for considering the question.
Jim, I can appreciate your orientiation of 'no goals'. Perhaps that also means no objectives or asperations? Today you are following your bhakti and this is a blessing. Is there an asperation for bhakti to blossom? or become full? I am not challenging , you know that is not my intent.
Was there a 'no goals' orientation on day 1 when you chose to start the practice? That is the root of the question, you have evolved/unfolded or discovered this state of bhakti, yet day one, what did you 'buy' sight unseen? What was the inspiration? From where did it come? This is the root of the question.
Kathy, your simplicity is wonderful! The spirit is all about simple.
One of the most famous rishi's is Hastamalaka, a follower of Shankara. He was not the 'vedic punditji' of the time but was drenched in Divine Bliss and new that this blessedness of Fullness (Bhuma), was all of being the most simple. What could be more simple then One with everything, with happiness?
I bring this whole conversation up because this shraddh, this faith, that there is a Reality beyond, no right in front of us, vs. what we are experiencing today, is built in to the circuity of consciousness. This is His Grace some talk of... that the SELF finds you , then you chose to find the SELF, thinking it was your own volition. His Grace is in us all.
We can take the path of the heart ( bhakti) or knowlege, or of raja yoga, or even Hatha yoga - but having a glimpse of what this END STATE is, a vision of possibilities, brings delight to my heart, not angst of a goal that may be out of reach, but an offering from the Supreme that says 'this way to home'. No one will be left behind.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 03 2006 9:03:47 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 2:23:52 PM
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Frank, all I know is right now. I can't say I have no objectives; I'm fraught with them, as is just about everyone else. But enlightenment isn't one of them. I enjoy the practice, I enjoy the opening, and, to use a cliche I hate, "it's all good". My observation is that most people all geared up about enlightenment haven't tasted real opening. Opening is so delicious, and such a relief, that the question "how open am I?" or "when will I, like, TOTALLY open?" seem utterly irrelevant.
Being a little good at basketball or violin makes you want to "progress". Yoga's not like these things, IMO. I'ts not another ladder to climb, another thing to get good at, another thing to acquire knowledge and abilities in.
That's additive. Yoga is subtractive. Yoga is subtractive. Yoga is subtractive. |
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m_a_srini
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 3:18:53 PM
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Hi
I have been practicing Pranayama and Meditation which is a mix and match of both Iyengar pranayama and Spinal Breathing and the "I AM" meditation as suggested by Guru Yogani.
Off late, I have had some experiences that I'd like to share so as to get a better understanding of the same and know if anyone else has had similar experiences.
All of these experiences occurred on different days and after meditation.
First Experience
1. Did Pranayama and meditation as always and got ready for work
2. While on the bus to work, I meditated again.
3. This time I saw this beautiful blue/indigo light start of like a small ball which grew bigger and bigger and engulfed me completely. This lasted for less than a minute and vanished. It then happened again for a second time after a gap of about a minute.
Is there any significance to this? Or I am just imagining things.
Second Experience
1. Did Pranayama and meditation as always and got ready for work
2. While I was walking within my house (with my eyes open) I suddenly experienced around both my eyes what seemed to look like a micro-meteor shower. Lot of brilliant little sparks zig-zagging across in front of my eyes. All this happened while both my eyes were completely open.
Is there any significance to this? Or I am just imagining things. Or am I doing something wrong as part of my practice?
Regards,
- Srini
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 3:40:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Yoga is subtractive. Yoga is subtractive. Yoga is subtractive.
Hello All,
I will just add my perspective about the subtractiveness of yoga. I see it as analogous to if our being (=consciousness) is like a crystal covered with mud, then yoga washes away the mud so the light can shine through the crystal, so in the sense of washing away mud yoga is subtractive. However, after the washing the light will shine through, in that sense we will see more light, and that can be experienced as something that is increasing. If we only subtracted stuff with nothing more as an effect, then that would mean the total vanishing of our being (=consciousness) at the end, and that is not the case. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 3:49:34 PM
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Hi Srini,
Sounds great. Well, I am sure there will be a lot of people giving you good advice here. What you are experiencing here are all symptoms of purification (I think).. Every body here will tell you.. it is all a part of the scenery.. don't hold on to it.. just let it go. Just favor your daily practice. You can look up a lot of lessons for more on visions
quote:
Scenery (visions, energy experiences, etc.) - 37, 81, 90, 92, 94, 170,175, 179, 180, 185, 201, 204, 224, 225
quote:
Is there any significance to this? Or I am just imagining things
You are definitely not imagining this.. is it significant? yes.. I am sure it is... it means a lot of good purification is going on... so don't doubt yourself.. just don't let the visions get in the way of your practice.. if they come let them be there..you dont have to force them out.. however don't hold on to them.. go on with your practice... always favor your practice.
Since you are doing a couple of mixed practices.. maybe too much purification is going on at one time.. you may want to take a step back and follow any one... its up to you.
Also, Yogani does not like to be called guru..
quote:
The guru is in you. (you may call me Yogani -- no special titles are necessary. Your appreciation of the knowledge is greatly appreciated here, so the admiration goes both ways. )
It was hard for me to call him by name.. its still hard.. but since he is helping us.. I think its only right that we don't do something that makes him uncomfortable Thanks Srinri.. I hope there are no hard feelings.
-Shweta. |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 03 2006 6:44:59 PM |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 4:33:36 PM
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Frank,
I loved reading what you wrote...
<from Frank>
"this faith, that there is a Reality beyond, ... is built in to the circuity of consciousness. This is the His Grace some talk of... that the SELF finds you , then you chose to find the SELF, thinking it was your own volition. His Grace is in us all.
We can take the path of the heart ... but having a glimpse of what this END STATE is, a vision of possibilities, brings delight to my heart... an offering from the Supreme that says 'this way to home'. No one will be left behind."
<end quote>
That it is...That sums our journey...I love it love it love it... 
Kathy |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 7:33:55 PM
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| This path isn't at all like buying something sight unseen, because there never is a point where we have to commit, or pay up. We just do what seems right today, and maybe someday we'll be on another path. When a monk from SRF called to determine if I should be given the kriya, he told me I have to commit to having Yogananda as my only guru until "liberation". i answered in a way that sounded like yes but was really asking him a question. I don't like making spiritual commitments to anyone else. I have a commitment inside myself to always follow the path I feel is right, and that path can change in a moment. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Apr 03 2006 7:35:34 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 8:28:49 PM
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Hari Om
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
This path isn't at all like buying something sight unseen, because there never is a point where we have to commit, or pay up.
Hello Ether( akasha),and thank you for your note.
I respect your post, but suggest there is a 'pay up'. Every action you take (or I take) is an offering and payment in kind. Every breath, and selection of actions that are in inline with your sadhana is a commitment albeit big or small , to the path.
We are bound by our actions, even inaction ( which is tough to do within the laws we are governed by).
We have freedom over actions alone, never over their fruits - this is at the core of this physical universe. Hence, an action-reaction occurs, and influences our total surroundings. As innocent bystanders we do not 'see' this total connection ( at least at my level of development)… payments happen daily, some we're aware of some not, yet we are held to the 'rules' that govern these i.e. the laws of nature.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 03 2006 8:39:44 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 10:21:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by weaver
[If we only subtracted stuff with nothing more as an effect, then that would mean the total vanishing of our being (=consciousness) at the end, and that is not the case.
Don't be so sure. A whole lot of very wise people believe that self is an illusion. And even more very wise people think all distinction is silly, and all is one with no second.
May as well just let go of everything. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2006 : 10:48:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
A whole lot of very wise people believe that self is an illusion...
Yes, self may be an illusion, but I believe that consciousness is maintained when the self is merged with the SELF. Yes consciousness as self vanishes and dies, but there will be consciousness and being as SELF. Just my personal belief. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 04:11:16 AM
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Jim said:
Don't be so sure. A whole lot of very wise people believe that self is an illusion. And even more very wise people think all distinction is silly, and all is one with no second.
This brings up the question in me "What is the difference between a tree - which we assume has no consciousness but is very still - and us humans who would aspire to stillness and get rid of our consciousness, because "consciousness is an illusion".
If we accept this then we must possibly go along with the theory that human beings are very much like a virus on our planet and a pest and negative aspect of nature. One to be exterminated like we exterminate a virus in our body. Much better to simply be a tree and just be.
We certainly display the tendancies of a virus with our all consuming greed.
Personally I don't like the virus theory, but maybe its just an ego thing. 
Also, I feel the "witness" is the key and the difference. In this discussion, what is the witness?, is it the true self?, is it the soul?, is it the ego instead of the superego?, is it our pure mind?, etc. etc.
If it is none of the above and it is the undivided oneness without consciousness, then how can it be a "witness". A witness must have consciousness.
Louis |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 04:34:32 AM
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Jim wrote:
quote:
I enjoy the practice, I enjoy the opening, and, to use a cliche I hate, "it's all good".
Why do you hate it?
quote:
I don't believe in "end states", and, anyway, I'm done with goals.
I don't believe at all. I have trouble with all kinds of beliefs. I used belief as a false comfort and it got me nowhere. However, I am not done with all goals. I practise because my single goal is to fully be here now. This goal never lies in the future. It is always right here. Right now. The "end state" is here all the time. The instant I "look ahead" i miss This goal. This goal is not something I have. I am it.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 05:53:43 AM
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Sparkle wrote:
quote:
A witness must have consciousness.
The witness does not have consciousness.
The witness is the witnessing.
As for what else to call it....I haven't a clue. As for the Absolute truth....I haven't a clue. But I have heard of the term "Devine coma". It implies that in total Oneness even the consciousness of being conscious goes. Or maybe that it cannot be remembered....so that the instant you return from it, it is lost from your perception. I don't know. I don't have to know either. To be, turns out to be more than enough.
All I experience is that the witnessing is all there is. Or like Jim said:
quote:
and all is one with no second.
And This "isness" is dynamic.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 06:25:13 AM
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Frank wrote:
quote:
But what of the destination? any road will take you there if its not understood, yet we're all on the bus!
Could it be this thing called faith ( sraddha)?
Like I said above I don't believe at all. But Faith .....well...I have no faith....but I am lots of it. Don't quite know how to frase this.........
Since the destination is always here now, all I have to "do" is trust the witnessing. Or rather; when i shut up, the witnessing is what remains and the experience of this generates a...trusting. The surrendering is the trusting is the "faithing" is the witnessing....is
One
May all your Nows be Here |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 09:16:13 AM
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Hi Katrine and all
Katrine said
The witness does not have consciousness.
The witness is the witnessing.
This thing about loosing our consciousness to enlightenment does not make sense to me, experientially or intellectually.
What you are suggesting would seem to indicate that a fully realised enlightened individual is unconscious and unaware and living in a coma. This is clearly not the case.
It would seem more like this individual is more fully conscious and more fully aware because if the enlightenment.
The Buddhist term for being fully aware in the now, is as I'm sure you know Mindfulness, it does not imply lack of consciousness, it implies greater consciousness.
When we free our minds of the past and the future and come into this present _________, are we not more fully aware and more fully conscious.
Perhaps the witness is consciousness is oneness
Louis
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 09:34:08 AM
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Hi again
On faith and belief.
I could say the only thing I believe in is belief itself.
I do know one thing though. If I use the word "believe" in a samyama way it holds hugh power for me, it seems to come alive in my being.
I understand also the the word belief comes from two words, "be" and "live". To live in a state of being. So we can say I believe in some particular thing or we can say "I believe" or simply "believe".
Faith is difficult for me, it used to mean faith in a particular religion, now it has more to do with surrender.
My 2 cents
Louis |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 09:44:41 AM
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Hi Louis
I understand what you are saying.
When I say that the witness does not have consciousness, I don't mean that the witness is unconscious. On the contrary, the witness is so conscious that this is all there is. Not someone being conscious of something else. Not two. One. The thing is: who is to speak, and to whom is this speaking when all is One? Speach then is completely reduntant. Speach then is a clutter.
The witness is not a noun. It is not a concept at all. It is not something my intellect can uncerstand. Being can only be understood by being it.
When I say "the witness is the witnessing" I mean: "the witness is the "consciousnessing".....
It is not our consciousness that is lost to enlightenment. It is the clutter that is lost to enlightenment. All that veils the light.
Then again.....what do i know?
I can explain from my platau of understanding; my capability of being.......but it is still just a fraction of Being.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 09:46:22 AM
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By the way, Louis:
I love your 2 cents
May all your Nows be Here |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 1:12:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
This thing about loosing our consciousness to enlightenment does not make sense to me, experientially or intellectually.
Hi Louis,
It wouldn't make sense to me either. If we would lose our consciousness in enlightenment there wouldn't be any point to it.
quote:
It would seem more like this individual is more fully conscious and more fully aware because of the enlightenment.
I agree fully with this.
Yogani writes in Lesson 274 http://www.aypsite.org/274.html
"As for what is next once inner silence and ecstatic conductivity are coming up, it is a long drawn-out joining of these two, played out as much in our daily activity as in our practices. This gives rise to the "child" of the union, as it were, called "jivan mukti," or "christ consciousness." This is the end game of yoga..." |
Edited by - weaver on Apr 04 2006 1:35:32 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 1:49:38 PM
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Frank said:
When was the last time you bought a car , site unseen? Didn't look at it , kick the tires, noth'n. " I'll take it" you said.
We have never test drove emancipation, never interviewed IT to see if wish to join the team???
True, but here's the great thing --- it's true for life itself, isn't it? This thing that we are, whatever it is, (and I don't think it is eternal individual souls) said, YES to this our LIFE without a test-drive. With a test-drive, would it be such a wonderful mystery?
So here we are again, going into the mystery again, without a test-drive, but into enlightenment, which is really just entering life more fully...
It's always and forever the same old game. Unborn, eternal, primeval and unchangeable, the sports-car salesman with the great spin (God), and the sucker born every day (us) are one and the same at the end of the day. Both think they are getting a great deal, and the truth is, they both are.
A test-drive would spoil it all, wouldn't it?
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 12:18:50 AM
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I think the whole debate of the witness having consciousness or not or losing it or not to enlightenment is more an issue of words meaning different things to different people than anything else.
Katrine I hope you don’t mind me trying to understand your words a little more!
When Katrine wrote "the witness does not have consciousness" the witness is the witnessing. Does it make more sense if she had said instead "the witness does not have self-consciousness"? In other words the witness just is, it doesn't think or label itself as something or someone or label what it is witnesses as something. It just is, it knows the reality of what it is witnessing first hand instead of through definitions or labels nor through the filter of the self in relation to what it perceives.
The way I see it is that we lose our self-consciousness to enlightenment but not our awareness which is always here, there and present. In other words all the stuff I use to use to define myself: “I am a doctor, great cook, nice human-being, generous person, advanced yogi etc., etc.” are all just labels and things that we are "acting out" to define our egos. As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 03:31:05 AM
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Hi Anthem
You wrote:
quote:
Katrine I hope you don’t mind me trying to understand your words a little more!
I don't mind it - I love it!
quote:
As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.
Exactly.
Pure awareness is This.
All there is is This.
Pure awareness is the witness. It is not our physical eyes (our personality/ego) that witness; it is Silence.
I therefore cannot say that pure awareness has pure awareness. ("The witness has consciousness"). That's like stating that the ocean has water. That is making two of one. The ocean doesn't have water. The ocean is water.
Sparkle wrote:
quote:
Perhaps the witness is consciousness is oneness
Anthem wrote:
quote:
It just is, it knows the reality of what it is witnessing first hand instead of through definitions or labels nor through the filter of the self in relation to what it perceives.
Yes...to all of the above!
And when I, because of direct ecperience (being it), know the full reality of what I am witnessing , then the seer, the seen and the seeing is One.
This is our gift to nature:
Through our constant surrendering; through the channels we are; the ocean comes to know itself as this Oneness (the witness, consciousness)
Hence all the Joy!
May all your Nows be Here |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 07:12:20 AM
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Hi Frank, David,weaver, Anthem and Katrine and all
I see there are two discussions going on here and we are not discussing Franks question. Hope you don't mind Frank.
We seem to have come to a common understanding about becoming more fully conscious as we evolve, which is great. For some reason a lot of people do not see it this way, and I'm not saying they are wrong.
weaver, I read yogani's lesson 274 as you suggested, where he talks about becoming the child and this is Christ consciousness, and this is ending up in the heart with an outpouring of divine love - the one heart - a great read and it is where this "drive" is taking us.
When it is said "we should become as little children", like many or most of these sayings the literal interpretation does not apply. The little child has no labels, no self-consciousness(ego). The average little child however does not have full awareness and full consciousness.
We develop this awareness and consciousness as we go through the dividing process and back again to unity. It is through the divide that we learn and become conscious. So our ego and our separation are in fact the tools of our enlightenment. Without this we would still be like little children but we would not be on the road to conscious enlightenment, we would be like the tree - beautifully still but unaware (as far as we know).
So we become like little children, with our labels gone and also with awareness of our Christ consciousness or jivan mukti.
Anthem said:
As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.
This is beautiful Anthem, and then I wonder if it is fully true, and maybe its another word thing. Does realising we are all one with everything mean that everything is aware of this, as in everything is awareness?. Perhaps it is this awareness, as Katrine says, that we bring to nature.
Frank said:
Perhpaps we will enjoy His Grace; we do today and we are not aware of it (mostly); Its esssence is behind each action we perform. As we fade from ignorance this realization is the gift, that bliss is the current (or rasa) of existence. This is the delight of the 'test drive' we have forgotten all about and is part of us and Him.
Frank, I love your words and I love the word Grace. For me it is like a continuous stream of silent love intelligence passing through us and everything, calling us back home. Even if we don't see or feel it, it is there pulling us out of our ignorance.
or as David said: the sports-car salesman with the great spin (God), and the sucker born every day (us), are one and the same at the end of the day
As I pull up here on my "beat up car" the tank invariably gets full to overflowing with this Grace fuel - ride on and thank you all.
2 cents
Louis
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The Ride, Destination, and Faith...
