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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 8:56:26 PM
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Hari Om
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
.When I say that the witness does not have consciousness, I don't mean that the witness is unconscious. On the contrary, the witness is so conscious that this is all there is.
Hello all,
I find your conversation's very inspiring. Yes, when we think of this witness experience, its definitely not the absence of consciousness...I think we are all vehemently agreeing. Its full of consciousness, yet unblemished, simple and pure.
Is fact ( here's the esoteric part) there is no-thing that is not this consciousness. All this is THAT…and THAT is consciousness.
This is called Vaishvanara, some call Universal Self. It is Bhuma, or Fullness or Brahman. We're delighted when someone starts to 'witness', why is that? It begins the progress of differentiating the SELF from non-SELF. This is key for ones development to know that this SELF is not the empirical everyday self we experience. This allows us to underand/see/experince how one can have silence in the mist of activity. Rest in the mist of alertness… the fundamental experience of 'restful alertness's as one establishes this 4th state of consciousness on an everyday basis.
Enlightenment is very practical, so the 'runway' to enlightenment takes us to this Witness experience.
I am delighted to see we're talking of this … its part of the 'ride' , scenery and a glimpse of the destination all at the same time.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 05 2006 9:03:23 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 08:35:15 AM
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Hi Katrine, Anthem and everone reflecting on "witness,"
I too have been thinking about the meaning of "witness." Last week, I did a search on the word in Yogani's writings. He generally identifies witness with silence. "Silence," a term he uses more often, is part of a dialectic: Silence and conductivity; Father and Holy Spirit; Shiva and Shakti. "Silence" is the gap between thoughts that also runs alongside thoughts.
The notion of "witness" came up in Yogani's reviews of the methods of Tolle and Katie where he said that the witness is prerequisite to their work. To the extent that one has that prerequisite down, then detaching oneself from errors of thinking, going through pain without suffering, and living in the now become easier.
I've also been reflecting on the notions of witness and silence through the lens of my own prior experience and study. "Witness" is a word that fits for that state of mind I have during automatic yoga. I witness with only minimal control. My body moves as other. I witness in a state of ecstatic absorption, without/between thoughts.
The idea of witness also reminds me of when I was having an ascent of the soul experience. A part of me was watching, entirely non-anxious, while a sort of whirlwind and fire was entirely changing my body awareness. But a time came when there was no longer a witness in the ordinary sense, no longer a subject object division, a pure gap. That gap, I see as the forth state (with the first three being deep sleep, dream sleep, and waking). That gap is what the NeoPlatonists called the One. In Christian mysticism the One is the source, the Father to whom we address the Lord's Prayer. The Father is the imperceptible source of beatitude.
There are gaps and there are gaps. After the ascent of the soul, where the gap was the climax, "I" was in a state of desireless bliss. In reflection, I came to see the gap as the portal to the source of that bliss, the source of transcending/satisfying all my heart's desires. Now, in ordinary meditation, recollecting that gap helps me cultivate inner silence. By the way, last weekend after I did Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka (lesson #91) and Dynamic Jalandhara – Chin Pump (lesson #139) I came as close as I have ever come to repeating that desireless bliss state.
I'm thinking now as I write that I see the "witness" consciousness as a continuum. On one end, the witness is identified with the flux of my ordinary ego functioning. On the other end, the extreme end of the continuum, the witness is identified with the One. When I am cultivating inner silence, I am moving the witness toward the One.
Bewell
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Edited by - bewell on Apr 06 2006 08:52:15 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 09:46:54 AM
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Its funny Bewell that you got this topic on "the witness" up this morning. I have been contemplating if I should write this... I was going to ask all of you, if what I was experiencing was the witness. I really don't care to give it a name.. but just wondering. For the past few days I have a constant feeling of a presence of something/someone (I prefer thinking of it as Ma Kali) in me/with me... esp. when I am alone... driving, reading or doing some mindless work. I cannot explain it.. its there .. I don't see it, cannot feel it.. just know its there.. gives me a feeling of being full in my heart.. a smile on my face.. like nothing can get to me.. When I do get caught up in something.. there is this thing that reminds me breath.. and everything is back to where it was before I got all caught up. I have noticed people talk to me more lovingly these days (except for a few who were born to trouble me).. even people who did not really care for me before.. ask me stuff in a nice way now. I feel more confident dealing and talking with people.. I don't seem to be so scared of what people will think of me.. what if I make a fool of myself.. My mind is definitely not in the "now" all the time.. I still live in the past or the future..(as per Tolle).. but I don't get caught up in it as much as I used to.. I still don't see lights during meditation, or see or feel the energy move from my head to my heart when I do Jalandhar.. I don't see or feel a lot of things that so many of you seem to experience.. but there is something different in me now... Is this the witness so many of you talk about?
The funny thing is.. I do my AYP practices just once a day.. the second time is a hit or miss.. I get so busy with everything else that the second session, I do, if get a chance.. Not very happy about this.. esp. since Yogani says we should be consistent.. I have been telling myself.. I am creating the groundwork for the future.. another 8 year.. both my kids will be in college.. then I can devote all my time towards my spiritual path.. did not realize how strong AYP was.. it just sweeps you off your feet doesn't it? Thank you Yogani for sharing this wonderful practice with us ....
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 10:58:07 AM
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Hello Shanti,
more power to your path -- that all sounds good. It's all a continuum you know. It sounds like you are going into a state of spiritual well-being, where you feel a Loving Presence. There are elements of 'Witness' in the business of not being easily disturbed. There is a time-lag right now between disturbance and its correction. At the other end of the continuum, then that time-lag goes down to zero, that is Witness.
'Witness', at least when complete and strong, is self-determined. It's not looking for anything to reassure it or orient it. It just is and watches. When it settles down, it doesn't even find anything amazing about what it is and is doing.
Which came first, self-determinedness, or the ability to simply watch and be a witness? Probably the self-determinedness, truly.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 06 2006 11:15:14 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 11:27:41 AM
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Thanks Bewell. I think you have made a clear and accurate expression of what the 'witness' means.
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
The idea of witness also reminds me of when I was having an ascent of the soul experience. A part of me was watching, entirely non-anxious, while a sort of whirlwind and fire was entirely changing my body awareness.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 11:50:32 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by david_obsidian
It sounds like you are going into a state of spiritual well-being, where you feel a Loving Presence.
Hi David,
I've been reflecting on Shanti's words for about an hour, trying to empathize. Your summary, which I found upon returning to this forum, fits with part of what Shanti said: "I have a constant feeling of a presence of something/someone...” I like what you say about what witness is.
But further on in Shanti's post, she says something slightly, but I think significantly different: "its there .. I don't see it, cannot feel it. just know its there.. gives me a feeling of being full in my heart.. a smile on my face.. like nothing can get to me..
I'm interested in the part where she makes a careful distinction, she cannot feel it but just knows. The feeling of being full in heart is an effect of this particular knowing. I tried it. I let myself "just knew" there was something/someone present. And, like Shanti said, I felt full in heart, confident.
And --here is the kicker -- while that shift happened, I observed the shift from a detached vantage-point. I observed myself knowing and feeling. And, in addition, I noticed that the observer consciousness and the Other were sort of interpenetrated.
Is that detached observational skill “witness?”
Bewell
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 11:54:38 AM
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Hi Bewell,
Great insights into the witness. I particularly liked this:
quote:
When I am cultivating inner silence, I am moving the witness toward the One.
This insight sheds light on the process for me.
thank you,
Anthem
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 11:56:13 AM
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Oh, Hi David,
I posted the above before I saw your comment to me. We must have clicked the submit reply at about the same time.
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Edited by - bewell on Apr 06 2006 11:56:51 AM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 12:00:18 PM
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Hi Anthem,
I'm glad that was helpful. I have the forum to thank for giving me a context for this kind of reflection. I love this forum. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 12:43:11 PM
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Bewell said:
And --here is the kicker -- while that shift happened, I observed the shift from a detached vantage-point. I observed myself knowing and feeling. And, in addition, I noticed that the observer consciousness and the Other were sort of interpenetrated.
Is that detached observational skill “witness?”
I think 'The Witness' can be seen as a Set of Skills, but also a Position or a Frame of Mind, or a State of Being. The differences are matters of semantic convention. We probably won't get great precision (and shouldn't necessarily look for it) but rather just be as clear as we can in the context.
When I use the word 'Witness' I am usually referring to the Position aspect, rather than the Set of Skills aspect. The Position is Unattached -- 'unattached' may be a better word than 'detached' -- 'Detached' seems to imply a history of an attachment that was severed.
Certainly, a Set of Skills come with Witness, one way or another. You can call that Set of Skills 'Witness' if you want to. There's no precise agreement or convention on what these words are to mean.
When you touch the Witness state you are Informed by it, usually, to some extent, forever. Some part of you knows that that is there, waiting for you. Some part of you can no longer be harmed. Your being Informed by the Witness, and the Set of Skills it brings, are inseparable.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 1:57:36 PM
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Hi All:
Obviously, there are many ways to look at "the witness." As many ways as there are means to cultivate it and people to experience it. It is at one time an occasional revelation, another time an ongoing separation (that untouched feeling), then a permanent state from which both structured and unstructured practice can be conducted, and, finally, a joining back into all of our activity as "stillness in action," that endless outpouring of divine love -- a paradox to end all our paradoxes. Indeed, the universe is that from the beginning, yes? An outpouring from stillness. Who says something can't be made out of nothing?
I don't see the witness itself as "a skill," though I understand how it could be seen that way. It is "a priori" -- self-evident, uncreated and unmoving, even as it moves outward through us. It is arrived at as a natural state of being through skill (yoga) applied beforehand and ongoing. Once it emerges as what we are, the witness is cognized as our state of being -- the effortless foundation of our 24 hour existence. From there, that state of being can be used for further development, but that is not the witness as skill. It is using our state of being as witness to move forward with increasing clarity of empathy and discrimination. In that way, inner silence moves steadily outward into our environment of thoughts, feelings, body and physical surroundings. We could say it is the witness using the witness to achieve the fullness of self-awareness. The witness doesn't move, but it does everything.
And then we know: "I am That, you are That, and all this is That."
It is Love, omnipresent and everlasting in this grand illusion we call time and space...
Well, these are just words. Much better to come to know the real thing via practices, and describe it accordingly, which everyone is doing beautifully here. It can be explained in many ways. It is wonderful to have the thing happening to explain. Of course, like everything else, all skill emanates naturally from the witness. That is why we say, cultivate inner silence in deep meditation and the rest will happen. Bravo for that!
The guru is in you.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 2:03:30 PM
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David wrote:
quote:
When you touch the Witness state you are Informed by it, usually, to some extent, forever. Some part of you knows that that is there, waiting for you. Some part of you can no longer be harmed. Your being Informed by the Witness, and the Set of Skills it brings, are inseparable.
Thank you, David. I love it.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 2:11:34 PM
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Yogani wrote:
quote:
Well, these are just words. Much better to come to know the real thing via practices, and describe it accordingly, which everyone is doing beautifully here
You know how to extract/refine the essence of this discussion and enhance it in a simple way. And that simplicity somehow includes us all. Thank you, Yogani.
May all your Nows be Here |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 3:17:37 PM
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Thanks Katrine.
quote:
Thank you, David. I love it.
May all your Nows be Here
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 3:58:51 PM
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Hello All,
It is interesting to read all these experiences with the witness. I have started to notice my own thoughts and feelings also in a somewhat detached way in situations, and reflecting if it's necessary to think or feel this or that way, and then sometimes found a better way to think or feel, or there is just silence left.
Those of you who have found more of the witness, do you find that it gives you more control of how you can choose to think or feel in a given situation? |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 4:28:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by weaver
Those of you who have found more of the witness, do you find that it gives you more control of how you can choose to think or feel in a given situation?
Hi Weaver
Absolutely. That is the beginning of stillness in action. Once we begin to operate from stillness, everything gradually becomes an expression of stillness. That is when samyama works. That is when self-inquiry works. That is when tantra works. That is when everything works. Not only do we gain more control, we also bring more power, empathy and morality into everything we do.
It's the p-p-p-power of love.
Sorry, that's an old Huey Lewis and the News thing. 
The guru is in you. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 4:46:48 PM
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Hi all
Wow this discussion has blossomed since I was last here. Its fantastic to read all these accounts.
I don't know when I started experiencing the witness but only recognised it as such when I read Tolle. This was the great revelation that Tolle gave to me, it suddenly made sence of so many things and it renewed confidence in my spirituality.
I have never had much conductivity, lot of escasties and various bit and peaces but not much else except peace and love, which is enough, I know.
Before Christmas I was witnessing emptiness in my being and out of the emptiness love started flowing out of my heart. I was aware that I was looking at this and yet it was emptiness. So who is this "I". It is of course the witness. Is it separate from me, I have no idea. It seems like I am looking at myself from a vantage point.
weaver, my experience is that operating from the witness gives you a serious advantage. When I become agitated or whatever and rest in the witness the perspective changes. We can make decisions without being immersed and overwhelmed by what life throws at us.
This is the silence that you know about and the love out of which we can make our decisions, while looking on at the drama from an unattached place.
Louis
PS. Yogani, I did'nt see you last reply before I posted, yeh - The pppower of love.
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Edited by - Sparkle on Apr 06 2006 4:53:46 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 5:34:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
This is the silence that you know about and the love out of which we can make our decisions, while looking on at the drama from an unattached place.
The great thing with the witness and being more unattached to our own processes is also that we can be more open and accepting and understanding of how other people think and feel and see them as valid instead of being caught up in our own. That creates more empathy, as Yogani said. |
Edited by - weaver on Apr 06 2006 5:37:24 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 9:03:37 PM
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Hari OM
~~~~~~~
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
[quote]. That is the beginning of stillness in action.
Hello All,
what a wonderful conversation. I enjoyed the word Yogani used... this stillness in action.
This is a state of being 'restfully alert'. its the gap between rest and activity we experience. Think about when you walk and take a step, and before you take a new step. You are between a step and no-step, yes? this is a rest state, but fully alert. Between a blink of the eye, there is closed eye, that one momement of restfully alert.
With your heart, between beats, that rest stage. We are filled with this throughout the day. The Witness,is the time we can be restful, still, yet engaged in action. This becomes the joy as the witness state unfolds and integrates into all parts of our life.
This is why the adage of yogastah kuru karmani is so delightful. It says , established in this yoga ( this restful alertness) perform actions ( karmani); Actions are more purposeful and fulfilling, without all the baggage of past impressions (vasana's)...So, happy witnessing to you all.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 06 2006 9:10:43 PM |
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