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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2011 : 12:21:27 AM
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Hi, I came upon this bit today and now I'm wondering if mano laya is AYP's inner silence caused by Deep Meditation: (the bolding in all the quote below is mine)
link: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/jhana-2.html
quote:
Just prior to the threshold of Tranquility, and sometimes in an overlap of early stages and sometimes indistinguishable is a preliminary or early stage called Laya. Laya is a mental state of quietude easily slipped into that occurs usually in the course of spiritual practice. The experience is temporary as the arrest of thoughts return the moment the pressure is released. The stillness comes and goes. The experience is pleasant and can be sought about by 'deep concentration' and/or breath regulation. It happens, therefore, with one's own volition. It can be repeated by the practitioner and it can also equally be dropped if it is considerd unnecessary or obstructive to further progress. 'Entering into Laya' can be a clear sign of one's progress --- the danger lies in mistaking it for the final goal of spiritual practice and being thus deceived. See also Gedo.
After making a serious attempt at going back to simple mantra repetition, and noticing that during those meditations, two or three times per sitting, I would lose consciousness for a second or two, something like a pleasurable mini-swoon. This made me wonder what kind of a state mantra repetition produces..
link: http://members.upnaway.com/~bindu/a...ndchap35.htm
quote:
Manonasa And Manolaya Manolaya is a temporary absorption of the mind in the object of meditation. When you meditate on the form of Bhagavan Sri Krishna, the mind becomes absorbed in the form of Bhagavan Sri Krishna temporarily.
Manolaya takes place during sleep. The mind gets involved into its cause, the Mula Avidya.
Manolaya is not sufficient for attainment of Jnana. In Manolaya, the mind is prone to revive. Manolaya cannot save you from bondage. Manolaya cannot give you Mukti. It is only Manonasa (annihilation of the lower mind) that can give you liberation. In Manonasa, the mind revives not and is dead. Manonasa is brought about by Brahma-Jnana.
link: http://www.sivanandaonline.org/publ...ction_id=526
quote:
Thus we are left with two courses. Firstly bring the Prana under control through various arduous Yogic processes, and then to control the mind and withdraw it from external objects and fix it on the Self. Secondly we can try to annihilate the mind through effecting Mano-laya by finding such a higher powerful principle towards which mind will naturally run and into which it will merge itself thus entering into a state of Laya. The sages found that Mano-Laya followed by Mano-Nasa was a safer means to attain Self-realisation than the arduous process of controlling the mind and culturing it which is always attended by the danger of the mind jumping into the old grooves of Vasanas at any moment.
In the course of further practical investigation the Sages and Seers found that Sound had the power to attract the mind and absorb it, so to say.
Thus Mano-Laya and Mano-Nasa through Nada Yoga (union or merger into Sound) was found to be an effective and safe means of Self-realisation. ... Bear in mind that Mano-Laya is not the goal but that Mano-Nasa and Self-realisation is the goal.
link: http://www.freewebs.com/theos357/TE27.htm
quote:
Extract from : Guru Vachaka Kovai, (The Garland of the Guru’s Sayings) by Muruganar :-
"Mano-laya is a state in which the mind knows no objects, and it is of two kinds – sleep and kevala-nirvikalpa-samadhi. In sleep the mind gets no light from Self, and in kevala-nirvikalpa-samadhi, though the mind gets light form Self, it remains merely as the ‘I’-thought, and the vasanas are neither allowed to function, nor are they destroyed. When one wakes up from either kind of mano-laya, the vasanas start functioning as before, and so no progress is made in laya, however long one may remain in it. Therefore it is said that it is not sufficient to stop with mano-laya, even if it is kevala-nirvikalpa- samadhi. Laya results because the mind is restrained from dwelling upon external sense-objects, but though the mind is not wandering and is therefore peaceful in this state, one cannot progress further."
and finally this:
link: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/...no-laya.html
quote:
how Bhagavan helped a devotee out of mano-laya Sri Sankarananda, a devotee of Sri Bhagavan, was employed in Madras in the Postal Department. As a result of practising mantra japa for a long time, he attained mano-laya, i.e. stillness of mind. He lost interest in all mundane things and he could no more attend to his duties either in the office or at home. He was all time in laya samadhi. It was at this juncture that he came to Bhagavan, having taken six months leave. He sat in the old hall with Bhagavan and soon lost all outer consciousness. Even after the lunch bell was given he sat unmoved. Bhagavan brought him back to consciousness by giving a mild push with His foot and took him to the dining hall.
Since mano laya samadhi would not lead one to the ultimate Truth, Bhagavan asked Sri Kunju Swami, Sri Visvanatha Swami and others to take Sankarananda to the temple in the morning, to Samudram lake in the evening and engage him in one way or another throughout the daytime, thus preventhing him from relapsing into laya. For many days this process of keeping him awake in the day time continued till he was overpowered by sleep. After some time, by the Grace of Sri Bhagavan, Sankarananda became normal. At the end of his leave he returned home to continue life in the normal way and also earned a promotion.
This has got me worried. If prolonged mantra repetition causes mano laya, then mantra repetition causes mano laya, and being in mano laya does not cause self realization, according to the aforequoted texts..
I've read about people who have performed TM for years yet, there is no mention of enlightenment. Is that because TM or mantra repetition only brings you to mano laya?
:) TI
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2011 : 01:12:28 AM
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I don't think so. I think this is caused by too much mantra repetition and not balancing it with normal everyday life. While you may experience consciousness lapses, this is not a state we are heading for.
Inner silence here, as I understand it, is having complete awareness of a profound silence inside. It's not complicated. Over analyzing and worrying won't help. Only consistent meditation, twice a day, and short times as recommended in the lessons and books. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2011 : 07:01:57 AM
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TI you are making this in to a very big deal. There is no perfect way or scientific certainty. Forget about having a goal, forget enlightenment, give up on salvation, just decide on doing one thing without variation regardless of it being AYP or anything else. Enjoy the life you have and extend that enjoyment by helping others feel good about themselves.
I like the story of Buddha being asked by a disciple how many lifetimes it would take to become enlightened. Buddha pointed to a tree and asked the disciple to count the leaves. The disciple did what was asked and then said to Buddha, oh no, surely you cannot mean that many lifetimes. No replied Buddha, see this vast forest that goes further than the eye can see. Well all the leaves on all the trees represents the number of lifetimes it will take.
Later in the day Buddha came across another disciple and was asked the same question. He asked the disciple to count the leaves on a nearby tree. The disciple did just that and then said that he was happy that it could be so few. The Buddha smiled and said that it would actually be far less than the leaves on one branch. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2011 : 5:19:00 PM
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TI please take it easy |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 01:23:47 AM
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Hi Etherfish :) I'm worried because I'm starting to believe what I've learned about TM style mantra meditation. If you consider what Herbert Benson, M.D. wrote in book called "The Relaxation Response", TM style meditation contains no religious or spiritual significance. Even when mantras such as "Coca Cola" were used, the results were the same.
That is not to say that there is no value in eliciting a relaxation response, because it does seem to relieve stress and promote health, but it isn't going to get you enlightened, nor should it be considered a spiritual practice. It is a biological phenomenon, much like self-hypnosis.
The other thing I wonder about is that Maharishi said or implied that one could remain in transcendance (inner silence) 24 hours a day (which is what he invited the Beatles to do). The quotes that I've posted above are saying that that just isn't good for you, which is why Ramana cured Sri Sankarananda of "laya".
quote:
Inner silence here, as I understand it, is having complete awareness of a profound silence inside. It's not complicated. Over analyzing and worrying won't help. Only consistent meditation, twice a day, and short times as recommended in the lessons and books.
I see bits of inner silence all of the time. It exists, not in the gap between mantras or words in a sentence, but in the space left behind in the dissolution of the each mantra or word. It exists after a thought dissolves, if you keep your attention in that same location in your mind. It exists through time, as plants are born, grow and then wither and die and return to dust. It is the formless realm to which all form returns. It is a natural progression and our lot in life. That inner silence is clear, aware, luminous and is infinite. I suppose technically one could argue that this inner silence is there in the gaps between mantras or words too, because it is everywhere, but it is easier to grasp by focusing on an object/thought right after it dissolves because it leaves a hole..
But this kind of inner silence is not the same as the phenomenon of the relaxation response ala TM style mantra repetition. The relaxation response is a gap in consciousness, much like taking a cat nap. I don't see how, unless someone points out the other kind of inner silence, anyone would ever clue into it.
Hi Karl, :) Not a big deal. I'm just trying to understand the different techniques of meditation because to me, it is important not to waste my time on fabrications and myths by the unscrupulous who have twisted the practical truth for power and material gain. I no longer believe that TM style mantra repetition will give you the kind of experience where your awareness will expand into omniscience. I think you have to do that yourself, as in the Jack Kornfield meditation called "Mind Like sky". http://www.oprah.com/spirit/Jack-Ko...ind-Like-Sky
quote:
"Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances. Find out for yourself what is true and virtuous."
- The Buddha
maheswari, Thank you for your concern. :)
:) TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 24 2011 03:18:54 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 12:45:58 PM
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You are worried about the unscrupulous, and yet you would believe mantras have no religious or spiritual value because one medical doctor says so? Hmmm Would you believe it if a religious or spiritual person wrote a book saying he did a test and a certain medical procedure has no value, and therefore shouldn't be used?
Meditation isn't something you shop around for like a new car. it isn't something you can understand from an intellectual perspective. Just as people before have suggested we are hypnotizing ourselves, you must be fully aware of what you are doing on your path to enlightenment. If you are doing the wrong thing, you will know it. In the cults where people are brainwashed and deluded, they go through constant convincing by the leaders and they are not allowed to think for themselves.
Obviously AYP is the opposite of that. If you feel it is not right for you, do something else and nobody here even notices. But as long as you over analyze any kind of meditation, you are stalling, so you need to pick one and stick with it to get results. Then after consistent, twice a day meditation over months or years, step back and see how things have changed, and if you are doing the right thing. You have to decide for yourself, because everyone is different. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 8:06:21 PM
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Hi Etherfish,:)
quote: Originally posted by Etherfish
You are worried about the unscrupulous, and yet you would believe mantras have no religious or spiritual value because one medical doctor says so? Hmmm
You know, I found this about what I believe is the same state as mano laya. It is about the effects of listening to the nadas (high pitched eeee sound in the ears): link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-38.html
quote:
Now, to bring the sushumna force into power, listen to both tones simultaneously. It may take you about five minutes to hear both tones at the same time. Next, follow both tonal vibrations from the ears into the center of the cranium, where they will meet and blend into a slightly different sound, as two notes, say, a "C" and an "E," blend into a chord. The energy of the nadis is then flowing in a circle, and you will enter the golden yellow light of the sushumna current. Play with this light and bask in its radiance, for in it is your bloom. The unfoldment progresses from a golden yellow to a clear white light. Should you see a blue light, know that you are in the pingala current. If you see a pink light, that is the color of the ida. Just disregard them and seek for the white light in the tone of the combined currents until finally you do not hear the tone anymore and you burst into the clear white light. Thus you enter savikalpa samadhi -- samadhi with seed, or consciousness, which is the culmination of this particular practice of contemplation.
After doing this for a period of time, you will find that you lose interest in the exterior world. It will seem transparent and unreal to you. When this happens, you have to learn to bring your consciousness back through meditation, deliberately into the processes of inner knowing and thought, and back into the exterior world through concentration. It requires a deliberate concentration then to make the exterior world seem real again to you.
Do you think that that is the state that Ramana was 'saving' Sri Sankarananda from?
quote:
Would you believe it if a religious or spiritual person wrote a book saying he did a test and a certain medical procedure has no value, and therefore shouldn't be used?
I would certainly try to figure out why the person said it had no value.. Truth is where you find it, despite the credentials of the source.
quote:
Meditation isn't something you shop around for like a new car.
Well, I respectfully disagree. You owe it to yourself to research the techniques, test their validity and effects. You could spend years on a technique and if it is not valid, you are wasting your time, or worse yet, entrenching yourself in bad habits which may lead you further from your goal.
quote:
it isn't something you can understand from an intellectual perspective.
Maybe, maybe not, but with the help of experiences and learning about other's history of experiences, one can perform an assessment. It's very dangerous to abandon all thought and judegement and simply follow a practice for no reason at all.
quote:
Then after consistent, twice a day meditation over months or years, step back and see how things have changed, and if you are doing the right thing. You have to decide for yourself, because everyone is different.
Well, it's been 4 years of at least 2 sittings per day (might have missed 2 days total) so that is what I'm doing. I'm assessing the practices.
Thanks for your comments. :) TI
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Christi
United Kingdom
4515 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 8:55:00 PM
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Hi TI,
Manolaya isn't inner silence, it is just a temporary abayance of the mind in meditation. And Deep Meditation is not the constant repetition of a mantra. That is mantra japa. Inner silence is, at first, the witness, which exists before, during and after any movement of the mind, when there is no longer identification with that movement. It is the first stage of enlightenment.
I hope that helps.
Christi |
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