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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 10 2011 : 2:50:27 PM
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Hi,
I have two simple questions about the technique of Deep Meditation.
1) I've read elsewhere that you are not supposed to listen to the "i am" as you are repeating it because generating the mantra and listening to it at the same time divides the mind. Is this true?
2) When you 'think' the mantra, do you think it as one big continuous stream as in " iiiaaaaammmmiiiaaaammmmiiiiaaaammm etc." or do you put a space/gap between the repetitions as in " iiiaaaammmm iiiaaaammm iiiaaammmm"
Thanks.
:)
TI
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2011 : 5:08:17 PM
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In my experience, "the listening" is the important part. Full body listening...
If you focus on the mantra, you give it "energy" which is counterproductive to the purpose of DM.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2011 : 1:43:10 PM
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Whenever those thoughts are passing through your mind during meditation, then easily favour the Mantra again. It does not matter how it is as long as it occurs naturally. Forcing it one way or another is not required just let it do what it will, fast or slow, loud or quiet, just a fuzzy feeling or nothing at all.
There is no requirement to deliberately let go into silence as far as the instructions are concerned. When it does go to silence it will happen of it's own and then you will suddenly be aware that you are off the mantra as you re-emerge from the silence and then simply favour the mantra again. |
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kaserdar
91 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2011 : 08:54:07 AM
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Listening vs. saying confused me in the past too when I was analyzing a lot and trying to do the correct way. Then It passed away by itself and I understood that when you pick up the mantra after loosing it, as long as you don't label this process such as saying or listening I'm doing good. When you loose, come back and "try" to say it is not good just as when you loose, come back and "try" to listen to it.
I finally understood how DM process is so easy. Think mantra, it takes you deep, you loose it somehow then come back to it. Who cares if it is listening, saying or whatever it is. Deep in the mind there is no analyzing anyway which is a good thing:) So I would encourage you to just relax and do the easy procedure.
As for the way of repeating, it is different almost in every session for me. I don't think how to start the mantra, I don't plan on the speed or the space between them. Because these are not necessary. Why worry about speed or space? You just start however it starts in that session.
Everything is really easy about DM. No need make it harder:) |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2011 : 6:24:12 PM
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Hi TI,
In refecting on your "two simple questions" I have been returning to the central teaching on DM. And here it is, in my paraphrase: Gently repeat the thought of the sound back to back until you realize you have lost it, then gently repeat the thought of the sound back to back until you realize you have lost it, over and over until the DM session is over.
With that the only goal, like kaserdar said, the other questions are not a problem. If saying the matra back to back comes out as one long word, or many words, either way is ok. If repeating the thought of the sound somehow takes the shape of a "listeing," so be it, as long as your only goal is to gently "repeat the thought of the sound..." it is ok.
I enjoyed reflecting on your question. Thanks for sharing.
Be |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2011 : 6:46:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Hi TI,
In refecting on your "two simple questions" I have been returning to the central teaching on DM. And here it is, in my paraphrase: Gently repeat the thought of the sound back to back until you realize you have lost it, then gently repeat the thought of the sound back to back until you realize you have lost it, over and over until the DM session is over.
With that the only goal, like kaserdar said, the other questions are not a problem. If saying the matra back to back comes out as one long word, or many words, either way is ok. If repeating the thought of the sound somehow takes the shape of a "listeing," so be it, as long as your only goal is to gently "repeat the thought of the sound..." it is ok.
I enjoyed reflecting on your question. Thanks for sharing.
Be
Hi Everyone, :)
First off, thanks for your responses. I was kind of hoping that Yogani would have answered those questions too.
You see, I bought the NSR (Natural Stress Release) edownload and CD. NSR is supposed to be the TM meditation technique, but, from what I have read, the NSR mantra is different than the many that can be assigned in TM. The NSR CD contains an example of someone saying the NSR mantra, and they are putting a substantial pause between the repetitions of the sound. But, to my surprise, the NSR mantra sounds exactly like a bija seed mantra, and when I started researching that bija sound, I came accross Swamiji's website that has a sound file example of meditating with that bija seed mantra, and he repeats the mantra repetitions with absolutely no break in between. Were I to do that with "i am" it would 'look' like this: iiaaaaammmmiiiaaaammmmiiiiaaaammm...
Bewell, what does back to back mean? Does it mean iiaaaaammmmiiiaaaammmmiiiiaaaammm or iiaaaammmm (gap) iiaaaammmm (gap)iiaaaammmm (gap)iiaaaammmm (gap)? or even iam (gap) iam (gap) etc.
The two procedures are quite different. I'm never tried making one continuous never ending stream out of the mantra. From just practicing for a minute or two I can see that that mantra wants to dissolve or shut the mind off rapidly.. it also brings up a steady stream of chi from the lower tan tien. Is that what back to back means?
I also wonder about the ramifications of using a bija seed mantra for meditating on "for the rest of your life", as they say in TM. Wouldn't it create imbalances?
:)
TI
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2011 : 10:14:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
...Bewell, what does back to back mean? Does it mean iiaaaaammmmiiiaaaammmmiiiiaaaammm or iiaaaammmm (gap) iiaaaammmm (gap)iiaaaammmm (gap)iiaaaammmm (gap)? or even iam (gap) iam (gap) etc.
A teaching on repeating the mantra "back to back" came from Yogani in a recent post, but he was not addressing your question. I suppose it implies a pause between words like in spoken English, but I do not think it rules out blurring the words together. |
Edited by - bewell on Jul 13 2011 10:22:47 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2011 : 01:08:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
A teaching on repeating the mantra "back to back" came from Yogani in a recent post, but he was not addressing your question. I suppose it implies a pause between words like in spoken English, but I do not think it rules out blurring the words together.
Hi bewell :)
Yes, I read that post.. here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=3#84527
I tried the "i am" meditation for this afternoon's meditation by keeping one continuous stream going and twice I faded into a bright white light space which didn't last very long.. It is much different from samadhi, but at least I'm starting to recognize it. :0 So, in TM terms, I transcended twice.. Actually, it isn't that hard to do a continous stream because the "m" carries on for a while naturally unless you consciously cut it off into silence. However, I have hit that "bright white light, blissy joyful state" a few random times over the years with non-continous mantra repetition too. So, it does not matter if you make the mantra continous or not.
I have been trying so hard to understand what inner silence is, and now I believe that it is the same state as 'transcending'.
If you read this post:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/2545...nt+timeframe
you will start gain another perspective on TM/NSR/Deep Meditation.
quote:
Darko,
Normal NSR meditation is 15 minutes twice a day. On a residence course, participants practice "rounding". A round is a small set of asanas (gentle stretching exercises), pranayama (a gentle breathing exercise, usually alternate-nostril breathing), a normal 15-minute meditation, and a few minutes of rest lying down. On the first day, we may do a round in the morning and a round in the afternoon. On the second day, we may do two rounds in the morning and one in the afternoon. Depending on the length of the course, we will start with two rounds, build up to some maximum number of rounds in the middle, then decrease down to two at the end. We change by only one round a day, to ensure comfort.
So you see, it is not that we meditate longer (this is inadvisable), but that we do several rounds. Rounding like this causes the metabolism to decrease, giving us deep rest even during the day between rounding times. Because of the extended time and the more rapid pace of dissolving stress, rounding must always be done under expert supervision, and in the context of other course activities that help settle the process of stress release.
I hope I was making it clear that we are not criticizing Satsangs or other kinds of spiritual group activities. They certainly have their place and value for those who are interested in them. It is just a question of efficiency. We want everyone to be able to move quickly in developing the skill in living that results from maintaining inner silence with outer activity. I certainly agree with you that the inner bliss that we start experiencing is totally different from the kinds of joy most of us are familiar with prior to our first experience of transcendence. As the blocks to unboundedness are dissolved, we realize more and more that we are truly "coming home" to a natural state of life lived in bliss. But we also know that this process takes time because of the need to remove the blocks (stresses).
So, the most efficient procedure would be one which balances the dissolving of stress with the integration of pure consciousness into activity. That is exactly what TM and NSR do. By transcending (diving in and out) for 15 minutes, then engaging in several hours of activity, we purify the body quickly while maintaining comfort. It is all a matter of maintaining balance. We don't want just to engage in activity, because that would not develop inner bliss and silence. We don't want just to engage in transcending, because that would release stress too quickly, leading to increasing discomfort and our discontinuing the practice. We want to maintain balance.
Siddhi programs do not consist of meditating with a different mantra. In Siddhi programs, the silence that we contact through transcending is moved, or made active, by releasing a meaningful thought into the silence. The resulting waves of bliss are highly enjoyable. Such programs serve to bind pure consciousness into our daily life, speeding our progress. The reason we do not start with Siddhi programs is that they require some measure of transcendence, or at least inner silence, in order to work. If there is no inner silence, then there is no silence to move, so nothing happens.
Someday everyone will have access to residence courses and Siddhi courses as soon as they are ready for them, without restrictions of high price or the need to travel far. Until then, our best approach is to spread NSR. NSR meets use where we are, and provides the basic procedure of restful alertness that gets us well started on the path of Self-fulfilment.
David Spector
Natural Stress Relief/USA
It is so amazing that the terminology, concepts and everything right down to the AYP Samyama practice are so similar. I'm starting to think that Yogani and his AYP is blending TM with kriya yoga. Which, is definately not the case because there would have to be variances in order to avoid copyright infringement if such copyrights exist.
Anyway, it is helpful to have another person's perspective on this style of meaningless mantra repetition (no meaning in the mantra, it is just a sound to focus on), the use of the term "inner silence" and the Siddhi program.
For me, it is quite helpful to know that if you are doing the meditation technique correctly, you should eventually reach a transcendental state. This may be downplayed here at AYP, but after 4 years of doing it wrong, and after seeing that others are still unclear about the concepts, isn't it is time we got this right?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=1
One difference between Yogani's and David's writings is this: Yogani states that process of meditation (losing the mantra, coming back to it) is the thing that purifies, practice is what purifies, not sitting in inner silence. David says that it is the inner silence that releases the stress and purifies:
quote:
We don't want just to engage in transcending, because that would release stress too quickly, leading to increasing discomfort and our discontinuing the practice. We want to maintain balance.
To me, these variations make a difference in understanding.
As for the effectiveness in the technique for self realization, that is another question and subject to much debate. Even Buddhism says you not only need shamata (concentration to still the mind), but vipassana (self inquiry, self observation) too.
In the NSR link I posted above, they discuss how some people have meditated ala TM for 20 to 40 years and still are not stress free (nor enlightened). Maybe they forgot the self-inquiry part?
quote:
There are some descriptions on the net from studys of long term meditators who have reached very high states of enlightenment. Almost all of this desctriptions point to 15 to 20 years of constant meditation.
Maybe this is also your experience?
...
Here are some answers to your questions.
"How long does it take under normal circumstances to reach this states?"
It is impossible to predict how much stress is stored in a person's body, how long it will take the individual to dissolve that stress, or even if a person will stay on the path once they have learned how to transcend. My guess, based on my experience, is that without residence courses it can take a lifetime for most folks to eliminate all the stresses. I myself have been meditating for 37 years and am not yet free from stress. Not that it matters much, since most people start having a great life not long after starting meditation. Being able to "wash away" daily stresses twice a day is enormously helpful and satisfying in the context of a society filled with stressors.
David Spector
Natural Stress Relief/USA
This all has helped my understanding tremendously about the practice of Deep Meditation, transcending, inner silence and enlightenment.
Now I realize that I haven't ever really done Deep Meditation correctly, even the time, a few days ago when I tried the NSR meditation and got a severe headache. You see, I usually do 35 minutes in one sitting, so I did the NSR meditation for 35 minutes. That is a no no, as evidenced by the head ache and feeling like crap for the rest of the day. It also makes me wonder if maybe, if someone is going to practice samyama (not patanjali's samyama, but AYP's samyama) that perhaps one should do them in separate sittings apart from the deep meditation, so as to not to go over the 15 minute limit of purification in 'inner silence'. Might save some overloads. Just a suggestion...
:)
TI |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2011 : 08:05:07 AM
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Hi TI:
Honestly, if you knew how to do something well, how many times would you be willing to explain it to someone who turned it into umpteen other things every single time you explained it?
All I can say is, as far as AYP deep meditation is concerned, what you are seeking is in the AYP lessons. The many other things you have been comparing and combining it with I have no comment on.
You will not learn to meditate with consistency or effectiveness with any technique until you learn to stop analyzing meditation. That is the long and the short of it.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
PS: Comparative analyses of meditation methods do not belong in this AYP DM support forum category. If that is what you want to continue doing, better take it back to "other systems." Thanks!
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2011 : 08:32:17 AM
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Hi TI,
I'm going to number because my comments skip around to different subjects you wrote about:
1) You'll know when you have inner silence - not because you can put it in words, but because you will sense silence inside yourself.
2) AYP is not a "branding" and exclusive rights type thing. It is a condensation and simplification of age old methods which have gotten so complex the average person can't follow.
3) Be sure you follow self pacing sounds like sometimes you may need it.
All your desire to check out so many sources indicates you have lots of bhakti! That's a good thing. If you can
refine that feeling down to it's essence it is very powerful. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2011 : 3:59:41 PM
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Hi Yogani,
I apologize if the topic evolved into comparitive analysis of meditation methods. Please feel free to move it to the appropriate category.
Thanks.
:)
TI |
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Two simple questions about DM
