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Nathan
47 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 16 2009 : 2:26:59 PM
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Namaste,
I was hoping Yogani or other knowledgable members could provide some insights on the following.
Do you consider meditation on the ajna chakra (apart from pranayama), a beneficial and safe practice? I've had a distinct feeling at the ajna for about 8 years now, and have meditated on it on and off for the past 4 years. I've practiced 'just sitting' or zen meditation, which is okay at first, but then the practice becomes dull and drowsy, and so I get frustrated that nothing happens, so I go back to meditating on the ajna chakra, which brings subtle bliss and also some lightening of the mind and emptiness experiences. After a while, sensation at the crown chakra came about as a result of meditation on ajna. I give the crown some attention sometimes because it feels even better than meditation on ajna. It seems like when I have meditated on the crown chakra in the past, was when the Kundalini really started to get aroused, especially at night. Right now, my Kundalini isn't fully awake. If possible, I'd like the process to be gentle and gradual.
I've also practiced self-inquiry, during which the neck often moves back and forth as if I'm shaking my head 'no.' I haven't been doing self-inquiry because of concerns about the physical health of my neck, because of this kriya.
Some people talk about the importance of balancing the chakras and not meditating too much on one chakra, but others, like Yogananda, talk about meditation exclusively on the ajna chakra, so this has been a source of confusion. Do you think that meditation on the ajna will provide the silent or Shiva aspect important for safe Kundalini functioning? Right now, I'm meditating on the ajna twice a day for 20-30 minutes each, and have recently added the spinal breathing for purification. Any advice or insights would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Nathan |
Edited by - AYPforum on Jun 16 2009 2:36:06 PM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2009 : 2:36:06 PM
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2009 : 6:50:38 PM
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Hi Nathan,
Welcome to the forum.
Thank you for sharing your practice with us.
At AYP, we do mantra meditation. We sit comfortably, with back support if required, and gently pick the mantra "i am" in our mind, and repeat the mantra in our mind. If we realize we are off the mantra and into thoughts, we gently go back to the mantra. We do not focus on any chakras.
AYP deep meditation is a very effective practice and you can try it out and see if it works for you. People have had wonderful experiences with silence after trying AYP.
In AYP we believe in overall purification of our nervous system through meditation and panayama and not focus on any one part like the third eye or crown (esp. the crown).
If you would like to give AYP a try, read the main lessons from here:
http://www.aypsite.org/10.html
Wish you all the best in your chosen path. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2009 : 7:02:54 PM
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Hi Nathan,
Welcome to the forum.
Like you, I have also practiced meditation on the ajna chakra for many years (about 14 in my case). I do not believe it is dangerous, and given that it is one of the core SRF practices, I think we would have heard by now if it were. As Shanti says, it is not part of the AYP system, but that does not mean that it is not a valid and useful meditation practice.
The ajna chakra plays an important role in yoga, and in the AYP system. It is directly stimulated by many of the AYP practices... spinal breathing pranayama, spinal bastrika, sambhavi, kechari mudra, yoni mudra kumbhaka and cosmic samyama. So we do pretty much everything with the ajna chakra except meditate on it! And some of us, even, meditate on it.
It sounds like you are doing really well with your yoga. The movement of your head from side to side when doing self-inquiry is kundalini in full swing, and you are right, it could damage your neck, so you want to be careful there. If you want to ensure a gentle and peaceful unfoldment of your inner energies, then it is the crown that you need to be careful with rather than your ajna chakra. Bringing your attention to the crown chakra is much more likely to put things out of balance on an energy level, than using the ajna chakra as a meditation object. You may have found this already.
If you can, it would really help you at this stage to get hold of a copy of the “Advanced Yoga Practices, easy lessons for ecstatic living” book . It is pretty much a print out of the first few hundred lessons on this website with a few additions, but it is a lot easier to read than reading it all on the computer screen. It contains a lot of information on the dangers of working with the crown chakra too early on, and on how to go about working with the crown safely later if you wish to.
If you click on the main lessons link above, and then the topic index
, and then scroll down to “crown opening, avoiding premature” you will get links to half a dozen lessons about this on the main site.
Lesson 199 is a guide to working safely with the crown chakra. Personally I would say that if you are experiencing spontaneous kriyas which are so strong that you are worried about your physical body getting damaged, then I would wait a while before going near the crown chakra. There are lots of other great practices you can do in yoga without putting your health at risk, so why bother?
As far as keeping things safe goes, apart from staying away from the crown, this is really a question of pacing yourself right. This is also covered in the book, and on the “self-pacing” link on the left of this page. As well as self-pacing jnyana yoga (self-inquiry) you may have to self-pace some of your other practices (like meditation and pranayama).
Good luck, and do let us know how you are getting on.
Christi
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Nathan
47 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2009 : 1:19:00 PM
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Hi. Thanks for the responses, Shanti and Christi.
I’ve been reading through some of the lessons, and those related to the crown chakra. As advised in the lessons, I’ll keep attention at the crown for only short periods for now, if at all. Christi, thanks for sharing some of your practice and pointing out that information.
Thanks again,
Nathan
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Edited by - Nathan on Jun 21 2009 11:42:35 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 5:47:22 PM
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Hi Nathan,
You're very welcome. |
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gagan
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2009 : 6:48:15 PM
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Hi Nathan,
I am new to meditation and doing Ajna chakra meditation. I am confused on the way to do it. For e.g. text says to focus between eyebrows.
Do I need to look at imaginary point between eyebrows with my eyes closed (There is a difference between just focussing/imagining with eyes closed or trying to focus/look between eyebrows with eyes closed) Is it imagine or concenterate(look).
Can you please guide me with this?
Thanks
Gagan
quote:
Originally posted by Nathan
Namaste,
I was hoping Yogani or other knowledgable members could provide some insights on the following.
Do you consider meditation on the ajna chakra (apart from pranayama), a beneficial and safe practice? I've had a distinct feeling at the ajna for about 8 years now, and have meditated on it on and off for the past 4 years. I've practiced 'just sitting' or zen meditation, which is okay at first, but then the practice becomes dull and drowsy, and so I get frustrated that nothing happens, so I go back to meditating on the ajna chakra, which brings subtle bliss and also some lightening of the mind and emptiness experiences. After a while, sensation at the crown chakra came about as a result of meditation on ajna. I give the crown some attention sometimes because it feels even better than meditation on ajna. It seems like when I have meditated on the crown chakra in the past, was when the Kundalini really started to get aroused, especially at night. Right now, my Kundalini isn't fully awake. If possible, I'd like the process to be gentle and gradual.
I've also practiced self-inquiry, during which the neck often moves back and forth as if I'm shaking my head 'no.' I haven't been doing self-inquiry because of concerns about the physical health of my neck, because of this kriya.
Some people talk about the importance of balancing the chakras and not meditating too much on one chakra, but others, like Yogananda, talk about meditation exclusively on the ajna chakra, so this has been a source of confusion. Do you think that meditation on the ajna will provide the silent or Shiva aspect important for safe Kundalini functioning? Right now, I'm meditating on the ajna twice a day for 20-30 minutes each, and have recently added the spinal breathing for purification. Any advice or insights would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Nathan
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2009 : 10:57:22 PM
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| i would recommend not focusing on agya whether it be between the brow or at the medulla. with enough inner silence in deep meditation agya will open and sensations will be felt there and it will open on its own. |
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Searchtruth
Argentina
16 Posts |
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Nathan
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 2:09:53 PM
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Hi Gagan,
Sorry for the late reply. To be honest, I'm not sure how comfortable I am in recommending chakra meditation, when I myself am unsure of it's ultimate efficacy in helping to reach Self-realization.
As to your question of tips on how to meditate on ajna, I'm not sure how helpful I can be, because in my case the sensation arouse spontaneously while practicing inner body awareness (refer to Eckhart Tolle). As there is the felt sensation at ajna, meditation on it is much easier than if no sensation is felt. The time it would take for you to feel this chakra could be short or long. If you do practice ajna meditation I'm not sure if I would try to imagine anything, but just to put a gentle focus on the area between and a little above the eyebrows. You can also turn your eyes upwards towards that area and gently hold them there (it takes time for the eyes to build strength, but this becomes easier over time).
There are books that deal with this subject that would be much more helpful than I can be; books by Yogananda for example, might help.
I hope this was of some help. Best wishes.
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Edited by - Nathan on Jan 31 2010 12:50:23 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 8:34:45 PM
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Hi Nathan,
I did the same type of meditations you do for half a year and both are some of those that work. Body awareness as described by Eckhart Tolle and Maitreya Ishwara is very effective and is one of many awareness-baed meditations that go fast into no mind and bliss together with lots of hefty kundalini actions, no breath and health problems as it was for me.
It develops the witness ultra fast, kills your sleep, but how could you manage that body wide bliss and immense tiredness? The no mind part within school times was the reason why I stopped that one, together with the immense physical sensibility to everything. If you can keep it stable and have no probs with daily life, go for it.
When it comes to the third eye meditation style, which I also had from the very same source, the bhakti exploder Yogananda, it takes longer. But then it hits you to such silence and full awareness of everything in such depth and detail, that it feels like instant enlightened (until it fades away =P). At least it aws like that for me 3 or 4 times( many restarts, always came after 1-2 months, but with pranayma beforehand ). Don't know how to live like that :D Best is, forget the crazy life-style people are living in. Too good to disturb the silence.
Yeah, most probably it is my fault that everytime I compromise with my current life-style, again and again. What does the Bhagavad Gita say? =) No compromise, kill them all Arjuna?
So out of the experience of this body, both meditation types work, but so strongly, that you come out of balance very easily because of too much awareness grow and bliss too fast.
________
Yogani makes it more balanced: Every I (eye) is brought down with am. So yes, AYP meditation also starts with the point between the eyebrows. But is constantly grounded.
And best not to forget, that Yogananda, his masters and students all practiced the kriya breath - which is similiar to SBP - in great amounts too. On the other hand, it is true, that someone asked him:
"Is there any other scientific method except kriya yoga that leads to self-realization?" Yognanda's reply was "Yes, another fast and safe way is to keep your attention constantly between your eyebrows." The words are not exact, it is found in one of those small compilations "questions and answers".
So yes, the one or the other way, you will have something to do with that spot in your body. Even if you do Eckhart Tolle style meditation, when no mind gets longer, your focus gets pulled up to that height.
When it comes to your combination, hard to say what to do. In the end I dropped every kind of self experiment as I could not bring anyone to an end =P Always when it got too good to be true, I was in the middle of the battleground like Arjuna. I am sure you need some special grace to continue and that one often comes through other fully realized people that still live on this planet and that you have come across personally or like this.
Hope you do it better. Wish you a smooth going trough =) |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 11:46:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy
Hi Nathan,
I did the same type of meditations you do for half a year and both are some of those that work. Body awareness as described by Eckhart Tolle and Maitreya Ishwara is very effective and is one of many awareness-baed meditations that go fast into no mind and bliss together with lots of hefty kundalini actions, no breath and health problems as it was for me.
It develops the witness ultra fast, kills your sleep, but how could you manage that body wide bliss and immense tiredness? The no mind part within school times was the reason why I stopped that one, together with the immense physical sensibility to everything. If you can keep it stable and have no probs with daily life, go for it.
Hi Holy,
I did Tolle's "sensing the inner body" as a regular practice for a few months and you are the first person that I've seen here comment on the practice. :) Buddha calls it mindfulness of the body and S.N. Goenka in his book called "The Discourse Summaries" teaches a step by step method of sensing the inner body. It seems to be more popular and valid than I first imagined.
Do you mind, can I ask you a few questions and make some comments?
1) Yes, when sensing the inner body (stib), the ajna for me becomes a large magnetic hole that is very hard to ignore. Since doing that practice, whenever I go to bed at night, when I start to relax, the magnetic hole between the brows activates. I kind of like it and have grown kind of attached to the feeling. Did you experience the same thing? If so, did the sensation at the third eye go away after stopping the stib practice for a while?
2) It goes fast into no mind and bliss... Yes, I found it was/is very pleasureable to do the sensing the inner body practice. I liked it so much that it kind of scared me that time passed to quickly when I would do it. I would do it twice a day for around 25 minutes and every session seemed to fly by (felt like only 5 minutes). I thought that it was an effect like 'time flies when you are having fun' but after a while I started to feel like "this is ridiculous", it was like I was having black outs or missing minutes in my day by meditating like that. You sit, 1/2 an hour goes somewhere and you don't know where it went (but it sure felt good!), and then you stop and get up.. Did you find the same effect? Did time fly by during practice?
3) Sleepless nights: I had two nights where I did not sleep at all when I was performing stib regularily. I would just lie there, watch the lights in my head.. I may have had a quick dream or two but that was it. I was kind of surprised I didn't feel that wasted the days after..
4) Kundalini bonanza: Only a few days after doing the sensing the inner body practice, my root started getting very sensitive and would release ecstatic waves continually, sometimes up to 4 or five hours. It also became more intense during the evenings, as the day wore on. After a while I kind of got sick of all that stimulation. That was one of the reasons why I cooled the practice down and now do it once a week or so.. Was that your experience too?
5) No breath: When super relaxing the body and sensing the inner body, at the bottom of the breaths there would be a big pause of breathlessness, due to 'letting go'. The pause was perhaps anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds. Is that what you mean? Were your pauses longer? What do you mean by "no breath"?
6) Health problems? Sorry, are you saying you had health problems or no health problems? And, if so, you attributing it to lack of sleep? I'm kind of surprised about that one, if that is the case, because Tolle talks about how moving your consciousness to the inner body is supposed to be very healing and beneficial.. So that wasn't the case with you?
7) I did not notice that there was a no-mind part that carried over into normal waking times, were you doing any other practices to accompany the 'sensing the inner body' practice? Do you mean that you had times when you were stuck in the Witness?
8) What do you mean by "the immense physical sensibility to everything"?
Holy, you seem to be saying that 'sensing the inner body' is a very potent technique and I'd have to agree. It is nice to hear about somebody who has practiced it regularily as it has verified and solidified my understanding of the process and confirmed some of the effects.
If you have any additional comments about the practice too, I'd love to hear them..
Thanks.
:)
TI
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Nathan
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 4:01:02 PM
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Hi Holy,
Thanks for sharing some of your experience with inner body awareness and ajna meditation.
Right now, my inner body awareness is not that advanced; I can feel the aliveness mostly in the arms and legs, and sometimes in the face and shoulders. Sometimes, parts of the body will start to feel formless. Sad to say, I actually had deeper experiences with this meditation years ago when I was just practicing for enjoyment (I learned it from a lucid dreaming tape at the time). I got to a point a few times when the whole body would become formless, and this came with a sense of freedom during the practice.
I'm glad to hear from you that there is potential in practicing putting attention at the ajna. Also, thanks for the quote you included from Yogananda.
Thanks again and best wishes. |
Edited by - Nathan on Jan 31 2010 12:46:03 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 6:27:04 PM
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@TI
yeah, I tried out many many stuff, am just lazy to report about everything as it did not work in the end for me. Okay, let's come to your questions :)
1) The third eye gets activated highly yes. My body started to gaze at that point with intense force automatically more and more. You can't do awareness-based practices without getting the relating chakra into more activity. It faded away after stopping the practice yes.
2) I had the same experience, the 20 minutes mantra DM doesn't work here. I sat for 1-2 hours per session. It was too good to get up. And it felt like 10-20 minutes at max. If I've had been already retarded, I would have never gotten up ever again, that's fore sure =P You rest in your own bliss-beingness that has nothing to do with time, what else do you want?
3) My body slept, but I was awake, watching the whole night for weeks and months. Nothing positive or negative, but was totally strange to live like that.
4) Yes, never ending kundalini play in the body, making it very tired all the day. So the nervous system was obviously at its limit.
5) The pauses of breath started like you say and increased up to 5 minutes and more. I could not say how long, as mind and breath and physical body awareness all melted away in pure bliss being. Many times going in and coming out per session. Like you start normally, body gets more and more energized, then solid like a statue, then feelings and thoughts move around. Over the minutes everything slowes down more and more, breaks of thought and breath happen more and more and so on. After some months when those thought and breath pauses were longer than 5 minute, the bliss became permanent 24h/day. University times were a complete wonder that I got though, just a miracle.
6) Until the impact on the bodily nervous system was so high, that I even had no power to get up from the bed. It was so overblissed, that it could not move. There was also no thought and with that no wish or will. Just bliss to death. The no breaths were all day long, whenever I sat down somewhere, the same happened like in the consciously started sessions at home automatically. I dove into that no-mind-no-breath-gaze-fixed-intensly-upwards so strongly, that normal live or functioning was impossible. I even could not understand what my friends were talking. Just sounds, no meaning. It was unstoppable, awareness could not be decreased or turned off. Oh and not to forget, I looked like a zomby. No mind, no breath, no blood, just bliss.
7) Yeah, I did alternate nostril breathing with breath retention beforehand, but just in the beginning. Later on that became totally meaningless as I slipped into deepest states just by sitting down and feeling the body consciously.
8) Feeling the body brought such in depth awareness of the functioning and life of body that whatever happened, I could watch the effects within my body. For example seeing a person, I instantly felt in me so much about that person. Eating was very problematic, as the cause and effect of every particle of the food was felt. And together with it that many things are not "good" for the body which I ate in immense amounts my whole life. You can ignore it for some time, but the more the awareness increases the less you can run from it, so you change everything of your life in accordance to the reaction of your inner body. Especially strong and stimulating music was too much for the body. It felt not as good as silence or very harmonious melodic tones.
Also my body got very very sensitive to heat and cold. Below 30 degrees in my room was felt like cold. The hottest sun felt like never ending bliss in the body.
Not much to say from my side, if there are more questions or things you would like to clarify, you are welcome. My body was not strong enough to keep up with the effects of that technique. Otherwise I would have sticked with it. It was THE entry to paradise.
I started with the practice after a satsang meeting with Maitreya Ishwara and the outcome was immense beyond anything I imagined. Maitreya himself meditated like that for 20 years till full realization which he describes in his book unity in more detail. Before that I knew the technique from Eckhart Tolle as well, but had not started to systematically practice. Maitreya's recommendation was two times per day, exactly like Yogani. Eckhart makes a whole day practice out of it. My experience was, that the 2 times per day become beyond your choice into a full time full body awareness experience. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 6:46:58 PM
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@ Nathan
the book was very old, I found it on ebay and lent it to my dad. So it is not here right now. The title was something like: Questions to the master. If I get more information, I add to this reply =)
When it comes to names of practices, there are many for the same ones. In the end, if you know the technique, you have what you need. The rest is up to practicing daily for as long as it takes.
A balancing pranayama technique like SBP helps greatly and makes your meditation part much more potent. Otherwise you can wait months to see tiniest results. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 11:32:54 PM
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Hi Holy :)
Wow! That is so interesting! It seems like we are/were having the same symptoms from the practice. I think this revelation is something that might help others who may be doing this practice. Thank you so much for responding. I really appreciate it!
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
@TI
...
3) My body slept, but I was awake, watching the whole night for weeks and months. Nothing positive or negative, but was totally strange to live like that.
Did you notice any light when you were watching yourself sleep?
What happened to me is that my whole head became filled with bright colorful light as I watched myself sleep. Watching myself sleep and seeing all that light really had an impact on me. It's a hard one to get over. I kind of like falling asleep and then waking up from the blackout part of deep sleep, refreshed and ready for the day. I guess that's what I'm used to. My mind would have to get used to the idea that awareness never shuts off and that it is not detrimental to health to do so. I think this was the biggest obstacle for me, one that made me cut that practice way back.. That, and the fact that the mind kept saying "you should be doing more concentrative training rather than just letting go and being blissful".
quote:
I started with the practice after a satsang meeting with Maitreya Ishwara and the outcome was immense beyond anything I imagined.
Maitreya himself meditated like that for 20 years till full realization which he describes in his book unity in more detail. Before that I knew the technique from Eckhart Tolle as well, but had not started to systematically practice. Maitreya's recommendation was two times per day, exactly like Yogani. Eckhart makes a whole day practice out of it. My experience was, that the 2 times per day become beyond your choice into a full time full body awareness experience.
That's what I was doing, twice a day as a regular practice. I was treating it like an AYP regular practice routine. But it was getting hard to pull out and sometimes I'd just remain in the bliss for over an hour easily..
That is the first time I've ever heard of Maitreya. I checked out a Youtube video on him and found that his definition of enlightenment is that the divine light merges with the human mind.
Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBsj1wePZXI
Again, thank you so much for your responses. It means a lot to me to speak to someone with similar experiences.. 
:)
TI
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 9:07:28 PM
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Hi TI =)
3) continue: the first time it happened with that technique (happened many times with many other techniques before) was the night after the first satsang day with Maitreya where we meditated together 3 times per day for about an hour each. Even those sittings were totally intensive, but that night awareness was like switched on out of choice. That night was a night where the mind wished to die. It was hell and nightmare, never ending, no bliss, just endless dreams and thoughts and the unbroken continuous wakingness.
That intensitiy went away after the three satsang days and for many weeks to 1-2 months sleep was as normal as ever, just much more aware-full, but not that painful. After that initial time where I started to reach the same intensities on my own, the same thing happened every night. After about 3 months it was continuous 24h a day. Like me watching the movie happening. Nothing changes, just me completely detached up to the level of thoughts. All moves by itself, me watching. No special or spectacular thing. The nights this body slept, dreams happened, thoughts interacted with dreams an I just was. In everything but untouched.
While this, there was no special bliss or anything else. Peace and bliss always started when thoughts became quiet and remained. The longer they remained quiet, the more bliss arose and the more energy moved in the spine. The second thoughts started, bliss was overshadowed, breath started, dreams started and so on.
So you can say, 99% of the night was as ever, only with choiceless being aware. And sometimes, mostly towards the end of the night gaps of silence in thoughts happened more and with that bliss and bliss..
I am sure if I had continued with the pratice, earlier or later the nights would have become a complete paradise in them own =) But as I said, my body somehow could not handle it.
When it comes to your vid, the second part gets more detailed. But yeah, I first watched his vids, then read his book and intuitively knew, I have to meet him. Some moments he was like the devil in person, the next moments he was like god. I never could comprehend, but just was so intensly attracted. I asked him if he could tell me more about the 3 stages of enlightenement he went through. He just said: "The next day.." The day after, same answer: "The next day.." and he just smiled. The third day he said the same that you also find in the book, most probably just to make me happy. And added: "the first stage is more than enough". His primary aim for satsang and teaching meditation was "to enjoy life more". What he said came true, but I obviously was not as tough as Arjuna and started to compromise with studying and friends (mostly girls). They liked me more with a blood-flooded face. Yeah it was a poor trade off, very poor =)
SBP + DM is much more indirect and for that reason much more "dosable". And this control somehow makes "it more handleable". I know I am wrong with this, so as said earlier. It feels like you need a special grace to continue without compromisation. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 7:05:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy
Hi TI =)
...
When it comes to your vid, the second part gets more detailed. But yeah, I first watched his vids, then read his book and intuitively knew, I have to meet him. Some moments he was like the devil in person, the next moments he was like god. I never could comprehend, but just was so intensly attracted. I asked him if he could tell me more about the 3 stages of enlightenement he went through. He just said: "The next day.." The day after, same answer: "The next day.." and he just smiled. The third day he said the same that you also find in the book, most probably just to make me happy. And added: "the first stage is more than enough". His primary aim for satsang and teaching meditation was "to enjoy life more". What he said came true, but I obviously was not as tough as Arjuna and started to compromise with studying and friends (mostly girls). They liked me more with a blood-flooded face. Yeah it was a poor trade off, very poor =)
...
Hi Holy :)
Thank you so much for relaying these experiences. You've had quite the experiences, haven't you?
I've been reading Meitreya's Unity2010 book and he seems to say that Tibetan Dzogchen is the ultimate form of meditation, yet his lineage and guru is "Osho". Osho says that women should not meditate using the mind, but rather should focus on their hearts in order to realize. (Actually, Osho, in the Book of Secrets says that women should focus their attention on their nipples until their breasts melt..) Did Meitreya instruct you on how to meditate? Were there different techniques of meditation for men and women?
The other thing I was going to ask you is this. I've gone back to "sensing the inner body" style meditation today just to see what happens.
After the afternoon meditation I found myself once again immersed in a cloud of bliss. I'm curious as to whether or not the effects for you are the same. I would describe the sensations like this: It feels like my body is now a magnetic field the feels really good, like I've become an etheric being. My hands feel like they are a foot wide and have a kind of light tingle cloud around them. The cloud of very fine tingles extends from my arms down the trunk of the body all the way into my legs and feet. It feels so good, what I would describe as a 'body stone'.
There is also a noticeably intense sensation in the perineum area that seems to pulse and release a kind of a sexually tinged energy although there is no physical arousal. The overall effect is that it feels so good I just want to sit and enjoy. Also, there is definately a deeper peaceful quiet state of mind with little or no thought that pervades. Now, as I type this, the sensation at my perinieum is becoming so intense I think I might be crawling the walls again in a short while.
Is that bliss? Was that effect the same for you? (I hope I am not embarrasing you or bringing up a subject that you don't wish to discuss in public. If you'd like to respond privately that would be ok too. I'm amazed at the potency of the 'sensing the inner body' practice and I'm really interested in knowing that these same effects are experienced by other practitioners.)
Thanks.
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Feb 01 2010 10:38:29 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 12:07:47 AM
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Hi TI ;)
To make it more clear perhaps, the bodily "bliss" is extacy, more extatic. That kind of extacy goes away after some days to weeks and changes into a very smooth feeling. The bliss I was talking about is much more subtle and starts with prolonged nomind phases. But later on the distinguishment gets hard, because extacy, bliss, peace and love melt into a play of happiness covering the totality of what is in the moment. Just out of laziness I used bliss to make the direction clear =P.
But to say it in other words, yes, that was most probably the good part of that meditation technique that it works right from the first sitting and goes deep very fast, so the response is very good.
What you describe matches my experiences exactly. But this is really just the very very surface. As said, it gets deep very fast. So at the beginning there is much friction physically. So you feel a lot of grossly stuff. Later on all this smooths out and gets deeper to emotions. All the stuff thats in you comes up. You just feel exactly as it is, no doing or changing, just sensing what is. Staying with that sensing/feeling is the concentration part you could say. What happens happens. Later on thoughts are included automatically in your "sensing" or perceiving or watching or being aware of. You see, so many words, all the same exact thing. Then the whole is sensed by you. Means, the whole moment with all its elements within and outside the body including all senses, in other words everything in that moment is sensed/perceived simultaneously automatically. More and more out of itself.
This is how it happened for me at least. And being for some seconds or minutes like this can make the switch to complete stillness/bliss happen. Its like everything melts to bliss-being and this is you. Even some seconds of this opening influences the "bliss-level" of the rest of the whole day. And you also know that this is the entry to the direct experience of oneness, superconsciousness etc.
To come back to the original post, I also "reached" the exact same opening with the third eye meditation. It was not so direct and hit in totally unexpected moments in daily life, but was the exact same total-bliss-me-is-all to the fines of finest level.
The point is, "things" like that come and go. So they still belong to the relative. But it shows the potential of how live in this human body is possible. And its more than worth to use this opportunity to adapt the brain and nervous system to this kind of higher functioning. The bliss feels otherwordly and at the same totally familiar. Makes you remember your baby days :)
I think we should stop spoiling the thread of Nathan. You can open a new thread if you wish and copy the essential parts or just leave it like this. I think there is not much more to say about this kind of meditation anyway.
Edit: Just forgot, he instructed us like this (all men and women): "Feeling is the same as being aware of. Feel the energy of your body and it will make you more aware. Then you are even more aware of the energy of your body which again makes you even more aware. This goes on and on, there is nothing more to it." He said it differently and clearer (1,5 years passed since). But thats the technique.
He also said that awareness is more "male" and love more "female" and gave a hint for the ladies "to be open to be more aware" as an alternative. Later on awareness increases out of choice. Either being more aware, nor being open for it, it just is more awareness/presence happening. Those flashes of baam 10x more awareness and silence also happens with the third eye meditation.
The problem is to make this a stable ongoing opening. Trying here and there doesn't work in the longterm. Wish you a smooth ride aswell :D |
Edited by - Holy on Feb 02 2010 01:05:33 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 11:26:32 PM
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Hi Holy (Nathan and everyone),
Holy, thank you so much for sharing and shedding some light and understanding on this topic.. I really appreciate it. :)
I hope Nathan does not mind, but I believe it is valuable to know some background about the "sensing the inner body" practice because it does open the third eye and a whole lot more quite rapidly too.
When I practice stib, my whole forehead becomes a magnetic funnel that feels like a hole has opened. Then the dreams and visions go by, even though I don't put any effort or real desire to keep the attention up there..
I still maintain, however, that the third eye is just a reflector, the real show is more inside the head, towards the back center. As a matter of fact, I found this in a Kriya Yoga book by Ennio Nimis which confirms this.
link: http://www.kriyayogainfo.net/Eng_Home.html (thanks ananda..)
quote:
Ajna (medulla oblongata, Bhrumadhya, Kutastha)
According to tradition, the location of the sixth Chakra Ajna is in the central part of the head. Some identify it with the hypophysis, others with the pineal gland, others with the third ventricle of the brain. It is preferable to abide by the following two-step procedure.
(a) First detect the seat of the medulla oblongata (on top of the spinal cord). Raise your chin tensing the muscles of the neck at the base of the occipital bone; concentrate on the small hollow under the back of the head and come ideally inside a couple of centimeters; maintaining the contraction of the muscles of the neck swing your head sideways (sweetly of few millimeters!); relax the muscles of the neck and keep your concentration on medulla oblongata for one minute: you will notice how any restlessness disappears. (It might be interesting to add that the tradition recommends to visualize medulla oblongata as shaped like the back of a little turtle.)
(b) Remaining centered in medulla oblongata, converge your inner gaze at Bhrumadhya, the point between the eyebrows, and observe the internal light in that region. Your perception can be vague but if you go on looking internally being satisfied with whatever luminous perception comes, such light will intensify. If you come backwards of eight centimeters from the place where the light appears, you have found the seat of the sixth Chakra Ajna. Meditating with your awareness focused on it will prepare you for the experience of Kutastha (also as "third eye" or "spiritual eye"): a luminous point in the middle of an infinite spherical radiance. In such region, one day, you will experience the radiance of a million of suns, having the coolness of a million of moons.
Ajna Chakra is the royal door to experience that part of the Divine Consciousness which is immanent in our physical universe. You will feel the entire universe as your own body. Such experience is also called Kutastha Chaitanya, "Christ consciousness" "Krishna consciousness".
The part I have bolded about coming back 8 centimetres is of significance because that is more than 3 inches behind the center of the brows! That puts you in the center back part of the head. The author is saying that this is the region to meditate on. And, another comment I have is that "sensing the inner body" did not make that discovery for me. The discovery was made by spending many meditations and sitting times focusing my attention inside my head.
According to Norman Paulsen, who was a disciple of Yogananda, you focus the gaze about 6 inches outwards from the brows, but then you bring your attention back to the pineal gland area at the center of the head. Also, according to Ennio Nimis, stage two sambhavi is to point the eyes up and inwards as far as they will go without undue strain. I've read that this eye position causes the brain to produce theta waves.. In the "Merging with Siva" book by Gurudeva, it says that one not focus attention on the brow, but a few inches behind it at the light that appears there.
Lately I've also discovered that there is a swirling void closer to the front brow (about 1 inch behind) and that if I intend it to rotate clockwise, it does so quite easily. By intention, I can also make it rotate counter-clockwise but it seems to be easier the other way. I haven't really pursued it but it seems to produce a swirling tunnel.. Hmmm..
So, the conventional third eye meditation, of fixing the gaze as though one is looking through the forehead is only half of the story. The other half is moving your attention into the center of your head where it all happens.
Nathan/Holy, what are your techniques for third eye meditation? When you fix your gaze, where do you put your attention? It would be nice to define what 'third eye meditation' practice is so that there are no assumptions and misinterpretations.
:)
TI |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 7:34:42 PM
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The point in the center of your head is the inner equivalent of the one going out of your head from the front side. By going out merging with inner and outer on the vibratory level happens. By staying in, you remain in pure bliss awareness. By going up, awareness itself is transcended to the unspeakable of.
Sensing the inner body first lead me to the inner center, then the eyes moved forecfully out of their selves to the point between the eyebrows. Later on the eyes even looked further up to the crown. It doesn't matter which technnique you do, every one leads to the same. Step by step the consciousness ladder is travelled. Your eyes give the hint where to put your attention next. There is also another point on your nose which redirects the energy downwards. All this happened automtically as needed.
The point you mention within the head is highly known to the kriya lineage as the kutashta or cave of brahma. The original techniques of kriya yoga put their attention first on that point, later on the eyes show you where to put your attention next.
Yogananda liked to go directly to the point between the eyebrows. And he also said that both + the medulla are connected. Concentrate on one, open all.
Lahiri Mahasay and Gurunath give also the same hint, as " Savikalpa happens within the head, nirvikalpa between the eyebrows, the point between innerbody and outerbody. Savikalpa over time leads to nirvikalpa.
But at first it starts way more down the road. When I started with the inner sensing meditation, the main areas at the beginning where sexually extatic, lot of pulsing of the perineum, immense energy flow in the belly etc. Later on this smoothed out with an automatical more pronounced heart-love energy flow. Later on as the awarness increased more to the whole space and was all-including enourmes bliss and peace at the throat spread out and penetrated everything.
Later on this everything started to melt into the brain-center. No space, no time, just pure bliss being.
In the meantime during the days, the eyes as said did their play of looking up more and more. So the realization came, pure bliss being is not the final, it goes even "upper". The melting of inner and outer. And as the last and the first, the all transcending mystery awaits at the crown. Then the coming back, pouring out, etc. I think Yogani gave some good hints how the process goes on :) You can see it through his expression of this AYP-creation.
The kind of third eye practice Yogananda or Nathan was talking about and to which I gave some experience-output is related to the point between the eyebrows. I did the brain-center/kutashta meditation too but not as long and continueous as the other two. And just can say, it is more like the frontal third eye meditation than the whole body sensing one in its effects.
I think I know what you are seeking, the very same I did over the years. The best technique =) The funny thing is, all are too good if practiced daily. The trying out here and there is the only delaying thing. Do one, go till the end. Meeting point is the same.
SBP or an equivalent breathing technique has become a must for me to keep balance, especially on the health level. So what works for my body is more amounts SBP, less focused meditation + a big pause of 20 mins at least. Mostly it is much more. What works for you, I hope you find it without so many years of trial and error, as it was for me :) |
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Nathan
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2010 : 3:58:58 PM
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Yes, for me attention is placed at the brow center. In time other centers are opened as a result, especially other centers in the head. If I'm practicing formally, I may turn the eyes upward.
Here are some related quotes:
Swami Satyananda Saraswati:
"Direct concentration on ajna chakra is very difficult, and for this reason, in tantra and yoga the mid-eyebrow center (which in fact is the kshetram of ajna), is used to awaken this chakra. This point is called bhrumadhya ('bhru' means eyebrow and 'madhya' means center), and it lies between the two eyebrows in the place where Indian ladies put a red dot and pandits and Brahmins put a mark of sandal paste. This eyebrow center can be contacted by various techniques."
The center between the eyebrows is usually what is being referred to when speaking about the ajna chakra.
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Edited by - Nathan on Feb 04 2010 4:04:00 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2010 : 7:02:40 PM
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Hi Nathan and Holy :)
I find this all very interesting for several reasons.
For one, I've come to understand that there is a hierarchy of states of consciousness which consists of layers. The first layer is consciousness, that which we are aware of external objects/phenomenon through the five senses. Then there is the sub-conscious layer. Most of the time the mind (or some brain mechanism) has hidden or cloaked the sub-conscious layer so that the conscious layer is not aware of this layer. Only now and then does the consciousness become aware of the sub-conscious layer, for example when hidden fears, phobias or attractions arise seemingly from out of the blue.
I believe there is a principle that "when we focus our attention or consciousness on an internal part of the body we gradually wear down the veil or cloak that exists there and we penetrate deeper into the subconscious connection that exists between the sub-conscious and that body part."
I believe that that is what 'sensing the inner body' is all about. If you think about it, when you focus your attention for long periods of time at certain body locations, such as chakras or locations on the body where there are massive nerve conglomerates, one eventually becomes aware of the underlying energy flows and finer pathways that exist there through the sub-conscious mind-body connection. This is why breath is often used as an object of meditation. There is both a conscious and sub-conscious aspect to breathing.
So, focusing one's attention on the brow, or inside the head somewhere is like performing 'sensing the inner body' on a specific location. And the result is that whatever was hidden to the conscious mind eventually becomes realized through the sub-conscious connection.
There are some interesting lessons to be learned from this perpective. Focusing attention is a way of breaking down the cloak or veil. Breathing into an area should also be an effective way to use the prana and intention to break through the veils. But the interesting thing is that if you can use these methods to break through the veil between consciousness and subconsciousness, you should be able to also use the same method to break through the veils between sub-consciousness and super-subconsciousness.
I started to realize all this after reading the S.N. Goenka book called "The Discourse Summaries" wherein Goenka describes Buddha's technique of sweeping the physical body with equanimous awareness (Vispassana). I kept wondering about 'sensing the inner brain'. Then I started to realize that third eye meditation is really 'sensing the inner brain' at a specific location. Goenka says that methodically moving the awareness through each part of the body in a logical order is the best technique for realizing what the true nature of ourselves is because we are focusing on the body (a natural object, our true self) and not a mind-created construct such as a mantra or a visualization. As we watch and percieve the resultant sensation with indifference or equanimity a purification or clearing of the sensation occurs and eventually we can get to deeper layers.
A great thing to do, perhaps more powerful than third eye meditation is heart meditation. The heart supposedly has the largest magnetic field out of all the organs in the body. It is also said to be the true center of the atman (although I know it's debatable). Yup. "Sensing the inner heart".. :)
Probably the best thing to do is to clear the whole body, brain, spine, limbs, everything and not just focus on one location. Right?
This also sheds some light on the practice of spinal breathing. Eventually, passing attention and prana up and down the spine wears down the veil that conceals the conscious, sub-conscious and super-sub-conscious connections in the spine. You are training your attention to remain internal, inside the body, where the sub-conscious and super-subconscious pathways exist. Gradually, as you wear down the veil, you become conscious of the unconscious.
Intuitively, I don't see how paying equanimous attention to our natural self or any specific location of the natural self (body) could be harmful. So yes, I tend to believe that ajna meditation is beneficial and safe as a stand alone practice.
:)
TI
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2010 : 3:05:07 PM
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Dear Nathan,
I know you had a wish. Thank you for your wise action to take it back. I still don't have access to the book where the quote of Yogananda's words are. But I could get the german title of the book from my dad, which is:
"Worte des Meisters" meaning "Words of the Master". I checked up the english titles and there is only one correspondending book called: "Sayings of Paramahansa Yogananda". Most probably it is that book.
http://www.amazon.com/Sayings-Param...p/0876121156
Have a nice day :) |
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Nathan
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2010 : 9:53:27 PM
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Hi Holy,
Thanks for looking into that; I hope it wasn't too much trouble. :) I deleted the request because I trusted that you gave the meaning of the quote.
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Nathan
47 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2011 : 1:54:41 PM
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Hi again,
I wanted to ask my original question again from a different angle. I now do DM as my regular meditation practice, and have been regular with it for a few months. I was wondering if keeping attention on Ajna outside of formal practice -attention during normal activities- would interfere with the results of DM in any way. I have found in the past that holding attention on Ajna is good for relieving depression and stress. So, besides considerations of overdoing, is there any known reason not to do this?
Thanks,
Nathan
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Meditation on ajna chakra.
