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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 09:45:56 AM
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Nodoubt,
Words are always a challenging tool to use to explain what we feel/experience. Again, I don't want to speak for Kevin, but maybe I can help with what he is saying. You asked about the meaning of this section.
"Once the silence gets really deep, and gets all lodged in most nooks and crannies of the body being worn, the brain might record Awareness looking back at itself, away from all perception, energy and substance."
To help explain, let me ask a some questions. When you do your spinal breathing (or energy work), do you feel the energy or vibrations along the path? If you do, does it then sort of "automatically" spread to vibrations in every cell in your body? Or is it localized? |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 09:48:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"Truth & Knowledge are always helpful whatever the form."
This must be translated incorrectly or something. Think about that statement.
Here's some truth and knowledge:
"The phase of the voltage across a purely reactive device lags the current by pi/2 radians for a capacitive reactance"
How could that be "always helpful"
And if you start narrowing the definition of "truth and knowledge", then you have to get rid of "always" or "whatever the form".
 Some of us enjoy learning. It is fun. And some day I may need to help my kids build a circuit for their science class.
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Edited by - jeff on Jun 11 2011 10:12:34 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 10:21:32 AM
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Oh, I understand now - "always" is translated incorrectly. In the US, "always" means "at all times".
It's a strange word; it should be "altimes" or something. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jun 11 2011 10:26:45 AM |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 11:10:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
"Once the silence gets really deep, and gets all lodged in most nooks and crannies of the body being worn, the brain might record Awareness looking back at itself, away from all perception, energy and substance."
To help explain, let me ask a some questions. When you do your spinal breathing (or energy work), do you feel the energy or vibrations along the path? If you do, does it then sort of "automatically" spread to vibrations in every cell in your body? Or is it localized?
Our condition is we have a body, energy and mind as one unit. The energy is already automatically vibrating in every cell. This energy has three qualities, it's void (silent), aware and outer and inner are unified. We gather prana into the shushumna to see these qualities clearly. Then, once we see them, we see them more and more easily in daily life. Silence is not sinking in. We are just overcoming our distractions from our true nature. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 1:44:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
"Once the silence gets really deep, and gets all lodged in most nooks and crannies of the body being worn, the brain might record Awareness looking back at itself, away from all perception, energy and substance."
To help explain, let me ask a some questions. When you do your spinal breathing (or energy work), do you feel the energy or vibrations along the path? If you do, does it then sort of "automatically" spread to vibrations in every cell in your body? Or is it localized?
Our condition is we have a body, energy and mind as one unit. The energy is already automatically vibrating in every cell. This energy has three qualities, it's void (silent),
aware and outer and inner are unified. We gather prana into the shushumna to see these qualities clearly. Then, once we see them, we see them more and more easily in
daily life. Silence is not sinking in. We are just overcoming our distractions from our true nature.
I agree with what you are basically saying, but I am trying to define a common context of understanding. From what you said above, does that mean that you can "feel" the energy in every part of the body? Can you "feel" the prana in every part of your body? Or is it localized to the shushumna, or not at all? |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 4:56:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
"Once the silence gets really deep, and gets all lodged in most nooks and crannies of the body being worn, the brain might record Awareness looking back at itself, away from all perception, energy and substance."
To help explain, let me ask a some questions. When you do your spinal breathing (or energy work), do you feel the energy or vibrations along the path? If you do, does it then sort of "automatically" spread to vibrations in every cell in your body? Or is it localized?
Our condition is we have a body, energy and mind as one unit. The energy is already automatically vibrating in every cell. This energy has three qualities, it's void (silent),
aware and outer and inner are unified. We gather prana into the shushumna to see these qualities clearly. Then, once we see them, we see them more and more easily in
daily life. Silence is not sinking in. We are just overcoming our distractions from our true nature.
I agree with what you are basically saying, but I am trying to define a common context of understanding. From what you said above, does that mean that you can "feel" the energy in every part of the body? Can you "feel" the prana in every part of your body? Or is it localized to the shushumna, or not at all?
Energy is a general term to describe feeling. I have feeling everywhere in my body and beyond it. I have different feelings in different places. Root to brow pranayama with visualization of thread or light causes a concentration of energy in the shushumna. However, it is important to have that recognition of silence that has no location, and practice without boundaries or goals. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 7:51:59 PM
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I agree that we all may "feel" the energy differently, but it becomes much more than just a general sense or visualization. Full "ecstatic conductivity" or "Kundalini" has a significant "feel". For me, it has evolved to very refined micro vibrations.
So on an energy level, Kevin's phrase of "once everything has sunk in" and "all the nooks & crannies" would translate for you as... After the kundalini vibrations have spread from the shushumna to power up all of the chakras, and then expanded to every cell. To the point where you feel the vibrations on a cellular level.
The concept is similar with silence, but I thought energy would be easier to agree on a definition. A simple description of "every nook" in silence means having full silence in normal day to day stuff. No ego monologue
popping up.
Kevin's statements are actually very thoughtful and deep. Using Etherfish's electric circuit analogy... Kevin's post becomes something like... Think of growing silence like increasing capacitor capacity. Energy or Kundalini is the electricity going through the circuit. At a certain level, the capacity and voltage becomes so high, everything lights up and you get superconductivity. It is similar (with different descriptive words) to Yogani's "unity" level.
Hope this helps. We all (including the old masters) describe our experiences using words that try to convey meaning. Words make very poor substitutes for the actual experience.
Peace & Love. |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 02:02:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
I agree that we all may "feel" the energy differently, but it becomes much more than just a general sense or visualization. Full "ecstatic conductivity" or "Kundalini" has a significant "feel". For me, it has evolved to very refined micro vibrations.
So on an energy level, Kevin's phrase of "once everything has sunk in" and "all the nooks & crannies" would translate for you as... After the kundalini vibrations have spread from the shushumna to power up all of the chakras, and then expanded to every cell. To the point where you feel the vibrations on a cellular level.
The concept is similar with silence, but I thought energy would be easier to agree on a definition. A simple description of "every nook" in silence means having full silence in normal day to day stuff. No ego monologue
popping up.
Kevin's statements are actually very thoughtful and deep. Using Etherfish's electric circuit analogy... Kevin's post becomes something like... Think of growing silence like increasing capacitor capacity. Energy or Kundalini is the electricity going through the circuit. At a certain level, the capacity and voltage becomes so high, everything lights up and you get superconductivity. It is similar (with different descriptive words) to Yogani's "unity" level.
Hope this helps. We all (including the old masters) describe our experiences using words that try to convey meaning. Words make very poor substitutes for the actual experience.
Peace & Love.
In my book what you are describing is an errant path of self-delusion. For example, if you think your feeling is real, that it is "you," that it is "happening," that it is "good," "right," and "true," you have totally missed the meaning of silence and stillness. If you think you are supposed to become a superconductor, I feel you are in a superman fantasy. Focusing on vibrations and holding to some meaning in them, in my tradition, is samsara. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 09:30:50 AM
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I definitely agree that the "feelings" are not us. There is no interest in becoming a "superconductor". Words can not describe what we are. Words only become descriptors to steps or "feelings" to a path. An attempt to create "signposts" for others along the way. In reality, there is no path.
In the forums, many find it helpful for themselves and others to share from their "experiences". You may not. But consider why you feel the need to judge others. In your book, who is doing the judging?
My path is pretty simple, almost " feel the flow, be the flow" and if you follow the flow
of Kevin's posts in this thread and his other recent posts, he seems to be describing
something akin to a temporal Buddhism. Very interesting stuff, if you follow the flow of
the implications.
Peace & Love. |
Edited by - jeff on Jun 12 2011 2:07:30 PM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 5:46:17 PM
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Some people have been asking me about this in email.. so here it is for anyone who might be interested:
Who Becomes Enlightened?
Does the ego (the limited self, the little self, the conditioned mind) ever become enlightened? We hear so many people talk about the ego like it's an enemy; like it could possibly become other than what it is..a self-description that helps us know our place in society, as we are social animals. That function must always remain with us. That is the entire reason a sense of self like most of us know it evolved at all. The ego is not something to be attacked or transcended.
If we love "our" egos and the egos of others we come across, with undonditional love.. loving these egos just as they are.. then the egos won't hurt so much.. be so prone to grasping so much.. be so prone to trying to "sit on the throne of the body" and be a petty tyrant.
If we otherwise "ignore" our egos.. not harshly.. but rather like a child who pouts and screams for attention.. and just love that ego.. just as it is.. we will go far.
If we come down hard on our egos.. we are in fact using the ego to attack the ego..whew! what a silly game that is! Our Selves do not wish to attack egos.. egos perform necessary functions.. it is only when an ego tries to emulate the Self, that problems arise.
We notice so many spiritual seekser don't really know what to do with their egos.. they fight them.. they curse them.. and ultimately they torture themsleves so much, that their egos learn to "put on sheeps clothing" and pretend to be the Self. Or at the least pretend to be wise; pretend to be some scholar.
It is very easy in fact, to have kundalini coming out our ears... all our chakras "roaring" and in fact to have quite a bit of silence.. and to have a powerful ego.. that has learned to emulate what we think the Self should be...
Egos always want to put others down.. because others are "not the ego". The ego is a construct of the rational mind... the rational mind knows nothing about unity. So to emulate "unity" all the rational mind can do is attempt to force everyone else to think the way the rational mind does..
the form this violence takes is usually in the form of dogma/tradition.
So who becomes enlightneed, if it is not the ego?
The Self that most of us first become aware of, as the Witness in the silence, is in fact a fragment of Atman that has streamed into ths time and place --this Earth. I call this a temporally stranded bit of Atman; this is in fact what we feel as the Self for the longest time. It is this Self, limited a bit by time and space (though not as much as "us") that is the one who becomes enlightened, not our egos.
As the temporal Self becomes enlightened, the ego does tend to shrink.. but it never shrinks away.. it assumes it's proper role..
When the ego happens to be relaxed, and the Self is enlightened, or in the process of becoming enlightened, the ego often feels the "dissolving effect".. this is the ego falling into the Awareness of the Self.
At a later stage, the temporally stranded bit of Self becomes Aware of it's true nature, and starts getting folded up into the Atman, sitting 99% outside of what we would consider time and space.. At a later stage even Atman gets folded up into the One.. until the next cycle starts all over again.. and the sparks of God, the Atman are reborn as 99% outside of time and space.. sending streamers into time and space to become temporally "stranded" bits of Self, who eventually become enlightened again.. in a different time.. in a different way.. in a different world... it is for this reason that it is said, that we are ALWAYS a work in progress.
Eventually, the ego lives in the presence of the Self, which is no longer bound by this time and space..the Self sits on the throne of the body.. but the ego is not discarded.. both aspects remain..
It is like many traditions have said.. we start out as normal people.. we suffer.. we struggle.. we become transcendant.. we become otherworldy.. then we become normal people again.. living much like anyone else, except we know who we truly are.. supreme happiness and clarity become ours.
Love,
Kev
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 10:53:22 PM
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| Yoga and buddhism is very simple when understood rightly. Yoga is concerned with basics, because it doesn't need to know everything only just enough to be liberated. We are composed of experiences of neutrality, attraction and repulsion with regard to the physical states of solidity, fluidity, motility, heat and space (and all combinations). This is samsara. Because we don't know what our condition is really like we continue along in samsara. When the neutrality is recognized as vidya, we cut the root of samsara and birth is destroyed. Yoga practice is to get into vidya and then to remain there until all our karmic potentials are exhausted and the body literally evaporates. |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 10:55:33 PM
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| What we consider to be an individual is collection of consciousnesses: eye, ear, mind, etc. There is no "ego." |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 11:20:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
At a later stage, the temporally stranded bit of Self becomes Aware of it's true nature, and starts getting folded up into the Atman, sitting 99% outside of what we would consider time and space.. At a later stage even Atman gets folded up into the One.. until the next cycle starts all over again.. and the sparks of God, the Atman are reborn as 99% outside of time and space.. sending streamers into time and space to become temporally "stranded" bits of Self, who eventually become enlightened again.. in a different time.. in a different way.. in a different world... it is for this reason that it is said, that we are ALWAYS a work in progress
No. Enlightenment is the final destruction of birth. There is no further progress after enlightenment. There are no temporally stranded bits of Self. This is untrue. Self is beyond time by definition. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 01:13:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
At a later stage, the temporally stranded bit of Self becomes Aware of it's true nature, and starts getting folded up into the Atman, sitting 99% outside of what we would consider time and space.. At a later stage even Atman gets folded up into the One.. until the next cycle starts all over again.. and the sparks of God, the Atman are reborn as 99% outside of time and space.. sending streamers into time and space to become temporally "stranded" bits of Self, who eventually become enlightened again.. in a different time.. in a different way.. in a different world... it is for this reason that it is said, that we are ALWAYS a work in progress
No. Enlightenment is the final destruction of birth. There is no further progress after enlightenment. There are no temporally stranded bits of Self. This is untrue. Self is beyond time by definition.
Thank you for your continuing intent.
Love,
Kev |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 1:42:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
Focusing on vibrations and holding to some meaning in them, in my tradition, is samsara.
I guess you & I will just have to disagree on the "energy" or "vibration" component. While I agree that I am not the "feelings", my experiences have been similar to what Yogani has documented in the AYP lessons. I find the information & milestones helpful.
Finally, one last energy blending description. Filling in some "nooks & crannies". From Abhinavagupta in his Para-triska-Vivarana...
"When there is dissolution of prana and apana (marudadi), in susumna which, as the central channel, is full of the storage of the energy of all the senses, then one's consciousness gets entry into that stage of the great central susumna channel where it acquires union with the pulsation [or vibrations for me] of one's Sakti, then all sense of duality dissolves, and there is the perfect I-consciousness generated by the abundance of the perfection of one's own inherent Sakti."
Peace & Love. |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 2:49:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
Focusing on vibrations and holding to some meaning in them, in my tradition, is samsara.
I guess you & I will just have to disagree on the "energy" or "vibration" component. While I agree that I am not the "feelings", my experiences have been similar to what Yogani has documented in the AYP lessons. I find the information & milestones helpful.
Finally, one last energy blending description. Filling in some "nooks & crannies". From Abhinavagupta in his Para-triska-Vivarana...
"When there is dissolution of prana and apana (marudadi), in susumna which, as the central channel, is full of the storage of the energy of all the senses, then one's consciousness gets entry into that stage of the great central susumna channel where it acquires union with the pulsation [or vibrations for me] of one's Sakti, then all sense of duality dissolves, and there is the perfect I-consciousness generated by the abundance of the perfection of one's own inherent Sakti."
Peace & Love.
This is one stage. The further stage is when the union of shakti and shiva is perfect stillness. A vibration is transitory. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 4:59:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
This is one stage. The further stage is when the union of shakti and shiva is perfect stillness. A vibration is transitory.
Describing common "experiences" that help understand the "stage" has been my point (and what Kevin meant in laying the ground work with those original words around "settling in"). Instead of believing that energy or vibration is only "transitory", consider instead "integrated in".
In lesson 85, Yogani describes it as...
"The third stage is the rise of the experience of unity, where we see all as an expression of the One that we have become. This is the joining of the individual ego, pure bliss consciousness, divine ecstasy, and all that exists in temporal existence. It is brought about as our center in pure bliss consciousness is systematically encouraged to move beyond the body. It is enlightenment, realization, the fruit of yoga. "
Or my friend, Abinavagupta...
"Then by one's entry into the union of Siva and Sakti which consists in the bliss of their essential nature of manifestation and by one's complete integration (vislesana) with the expansive flow of the energy of the great mantra of perfert I-consciousness, there is the manifestation of the akula or anuttara (absolute) Bhairavanature which is beyond all differentiation (nistaranga), unalterable and eternal."
In the end... Everything and nothing are two sides of the same coin. 
Peace & Love. |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 5:14:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
This is one stage. The further stage is when the union of shakti and shiva is perfect stillness. A vibration is transitory.
Describing common "experiences" that help understand the "stage" has been my point (and what Kevin meant in laying the ground work with those original words around "settling in"). Instead of believing that energy or vibration is only "transitory", consider instead "integrated in".
In lesson 85, Yogani describes it as...
"The third stage is the rise of the experience of unity, where we see all as an expression of the One that we have become. This is the joining of the individual ego, pure bliss consciousness, divine ecstasy, and all that exists in temporal existence. It is brought about as our center in pure bliss consciousness is systematically encouraged to move beyond the body. It is enlightenment, realization, the fruit of yoga. "
Or my friend, Abinavagupta...
"Then by one's entry into the union of Siva and Sakti which consists in the bliss of their essential nature of manifestation and by one's complete integration (vislesana) with the expansive flow of the energy of the great mantra of perfert I-consciousness, there is the manifestation of the akula or anuttara (absolute) Bhairavanature which is beyond all differentiation (nistaranga), unalterable and eternal."
In the end... Everything and nothing are two sides of the same coin.
Peace & Love.
Simply put, outer and inner nondual. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 6:01:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
This is one stage. The further stage is when the union of shakti and shiva is perfect stillness. A vibration is transitory.
Describing common "experiences" that help understand the "stage" has been my point (and what Kevin meant in laying the ground work with those original words around "settling in"). Instead of believing that energy or vibration is only "transitory", consider instead "integrated in".
In lesson 85, Yogani describes it as...
"The third stage is the rise of the experience of unity, where we see all as an expression of the One that we have become. This is the joining of the individual ego, pure bliss consciousness, divine ecstasy, and all that exists in temporal existence. It is brought about as our center in pure bliss consciousness is systematically encouraged to move beyond the body. It is enlightenment, realization, the fruit of yoga. "
Or my friend, Abinavagupta...
"Then by one's entry into the union of Siva and Sakti which consists in the bliss of their essential nature of manifestation and by one's complete integration (vislesana) with the expansive flow of the energy of the great mantra of perfert I-consciousness, there is the manifestation of the akula or anuttara (absolute) Bhairavanature which is beyond all differentiation (nistaranga), unalterable and eternal."
In the end... Everything and nothing are two sides of the same coin.
Peace & Love.
Jeff,
I really respect your ability to verify experiental truths.
There can be no doubt, the silence that develops due to practices such as AYP, is fully up to the task of revealing the same things, that highly obscure, but higly respected ancient writings first revealed. Honestly, I've never even heard of 90% of the texts quoted by scholars such as yourself and others. I've never even read the Bhagavad Gita.
Fortunately one can become fully alive, fully aware of most everything, by doing practices such as AYP. It really saves on the book buying budget too.
But verification by scholars and others who know, who came before us, is truly valuable and not to be scorned.
Thank you for the time you put in, for the sake of others.
Love,
Kev |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 6:04:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
Simply put, outer and inner nondual.
Umm... I don't want to get in the middle of this titillating discussion but isn't "outer and inner non-dual" a complete oxymoron?
Love!
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 6:13:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
Simply put, outer and inner nondual.
Umm... I don't want to get in the middle of this titillating discussion but isn't "outer and inner non-dual" a complete oxymoron?
Love!
If it's not paradox, it's not true. |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 6:29:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
This is one stage. The further stage is when the union of shakti and shiva is perfect stillness. A vibration is transitory.
Describing common "experiences" that help understand the "stage" has been my point (and what Kevin meant in laying the ground work with those original words around "settling in"). Instead of believing that energy or vibration is only "transitory", consider instead "integrated in".
In lesson 85, Yogani describes it as...
"The third stage is the rise of the experience of unity, where we see all as an expression of the One that we have become. This is the joining of the individual ego, pure bliss consciousness, divine ecstasy, and all that exists in temporal existence. It is brought about as our center in pure bliss consciousness is systematically encouraged to move beyond the body. It is enlightenment, realization, the fruit of yoga. "
Or my friend, Abinavagupta...
"Then by one's entry into the union of Siva and Sakti which consists in the bliss of their essential nature of manifestation and by one's complete integration (vislesana) with the expansive flow of the energy of the great mantra of perfert I-consciousness, there is the manifestation of the akula or anuttara (absolute) Bhairavanature which is beyond all differentiation (nistaranga), unalterable and eternal."
In the end... Everything and nothing are two sides of the same coin.
Peace & Love.
Jeff,
I really respect your ability to verify experiental truths.
There can be no doubt, the silence that develops due to practices such as AYP, is fully up to the task of revealing the same things, that highly obscure, but higly respected ancient writings first revealed. Honestly, I've never even heard of 90% of the texts quoted by scholars such as yourself and others. I've never even read the Bhagavad Gita.
Fortunately one can become fully alive, fully aware of most everything, by doing practices such as AYP. It really saves on the book buying budget too.
But verification by scholars and others who know, who came before us, is truly valuable and not to be scorned.
Thank you for the time you put in, for the sake of others.
Love,
Kev
The writings on AYP practices and all these old texts have the same purpose, to introduce methods and to explain why it works. It's not like you can learn AYP in a dream. You have to read. There is a delicate balance between just laying out methods and giving background about how and why they work. If you look at the buddhist tradition, you could spend many lives just reading. But there are many buddhist yogis achieve enlightenment. If a good teacher can give you the gist and just enough but not too much backround you can go off and never speak to them again. In old times, the really good clear instructions for achieving like ascension could fit on one or two banana leaves. But no one wrote them down. They were easy to commit to memory. Students don't accept very simple ways, so more and more texts come out. The hallmark of mastery is simple clear exposition of the path and realizations. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 6:40:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
Simply put, outer and inner nondual.
Umm... I don't want to get in the middle of this titillating discussion but isn't "outer and inner non-dual" a complete oxymoron?
Love!
If it's not paradox, it's not true.
APPARENT paradox dissolves away at a certain point, for a great many things. It is not necessary to invoke paradox. Does mystery remain? Sure. Until the last unification, outside of all space and time, after the end of the current cycle of existence for all temporary beings.
Nodoubt, perhaps if you disagree with this reply, you might wish to say something like "I respectfully disagree" or "Thank you for your continuing intent". I have had good luck with those two phrases.
Just a suggestion for someone I love and respect. Feel free to disregard this suggestion completely; I will think no less of you.
Kev |
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 6:47:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
Simply put, outer and inner nondual.
Umm... I don't want to get in the middle of this titillating discussion but isn't "outer and inner non-dual" a complete oxymoron?
Love!
If it's not paradox, it's not true.
APPARENT paradox dissolves away at a certain point, for a great many things. It is not necessary to invoke paradox. Does mystery remain? Sure. Until the last unification, outside of all space and time, after the end of the current cycle of existence for all temporary beings.
Nodoubt, perhaps if you disagree with this reply, you might wish to say something like "I respectfully disagree" or "Thank you for your continuing intent". I have had good luck with those two phrases.
Just a suggestion for someone I love and respect. Feel free to disregard this suggestion completely; I will think no less of you.
Kev
What do you mean by apparent in this context? |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2011 : 6:55:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
This is one stage. The further stage is when the union of shakti and shiva is perfect stillness. A vibration is transitory.
Describing common "experiences" that help understand the "stage" has been my point (and what Kevin meant in laying the ground work with those original words around "settling in"). Instead of believing that energy or vibration is only "transitory", consider instead "integrated in".
In lesson 85, Yogani describes it as...
"The third stage is the rise of the experience of unity, where we see all as an expression of the One that we have become. This is the joining of the individual ego, pure bliss consciousness, divine ecstasy, and all that exists in temporal existence. It is brought about as our center in pure bliss consciousness is systematically encouraged to move beyond the body. It is enlightenment, realization, the fruit of yoga. "
Or my friend, Abinavagupta...
"Then by one's entry into the union of Siva and Sakti which consists in the bliss of their essential nature of manifestation and by one's complete integration (vislesana) with the expansive flow of the energy of the great mantra of perfert I-consciousness, there is the manifestation of the akula or anuttara (absolute) Bhairavanature which is beyond all differentiation (nistaranga), unalterable and eternal."
In the end... Everything and nothing are two sides of the same coin.
Peace & Love.
Jeff,
I really respect your ability to verify experiental truths.
There can be no doubt, the silence that develops due to practices such as AYP, is fully up to the task of revealing the same things, that highly obscure, but higly respected ancient writings first revealed. Honestly, I've never even heard of 90% of the texts quoted by scholars such as yourself and others. I've never even read the Bhagavad Gita.
Fortunately one can become fully alive, fully aware of most everything, by doing practices such as AYP. It really saves on the book buying budget too.
But verification by scholars and others who know, who came before us, is truly valuable and not to be scorned.
Thank you for the time you put in, for the sake of others.
Love,
Kev
The writings on AYP practices and all these old texts have the same purpose, to introduce methods and to explain why it works. It's not like you can learn AYP in a dream. You have to read. There is a delicate balance between just laying out methods and giving background about how and why they work. If you look at the buddhist tradition, you could spend many lives just reading. But there are many buddhist yogis achieve enlightenment. If a good teacher can give you the gist and just enough but not too much backround you can go off and never speak to them again. In old times, the really good clear instructions for achieving like ascension could fit on one or two banana leaves. But no one wrote them down. They were easy to commit to memory. Students don't accept very simple ways, so more and more texts come out. The hallmark of mastery is simple clear exposition of the path and realizations.
Nodoubt,
None of us, not me, not you, not Yogani, are the enlightenment police. Especially in this folder, we are all free to share what is meaningful to us on the path.
There is no need to take any of this "personally".
The One does not care what "you" and "I" and "others" say.. oh sure we all hopefully act with the highest possible intent, the purest motives, but we all fall short.
If you don't like what someone has written, might you not just ignore it? I ignore a great deal of what is perceived to be "twaddle". What's the most important of all, is that we be supportive of our brothers and sisters, genuinely and sincerely loving them, just the way that they are.
If someone wants to believe that cats are dogs.. or dogs are cats.. it's none of my business, unless they ask for help.. then all I can do is offer gentle suggestions, which 9 times out of 10 they will ignore. When this happens, I'm blessed when there is no grasping as to result, or a concern that anyone needs to be 'saved'.
NONE of us need to be saved.
This is my input.
Love you,
Kev |
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