| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Indian_Mumbai
India
4 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 15 2011 : 06:22:53 AM
|
Hindus and Buddhists both believe that Tantra (Vajrayana for Buddhists) is the most powerful way to advance spiritually. But most are reluctant to follow it as it involves walking on the razor's edge.
What is it that makes Tantra, the most powerful path for spirituality?
|
Edited by - Indian_Mumbai on Apr 15 2011 9:37:12 PM |
|
|
HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2011 : 12:35:17 PM
|
Hi IM and Welcome to the forums.
There might be as many answers as there are practitioners.
By coincidence, I was thinking of it as I woke up this morning... I've always thought this path ("Left Hand" Tantra, "Vama Marga") seemed both more difficult and more rewarding for an ejac-prone man than the "Right Hand" path of celibacy ("Dakshina Marga"), and I still do. If I hadn't learned the Left-Hand mindset and technique, and hadn't have the force of nature (Shakti) test me hard , for real, and hadn't gradually learnt to pass her tests, then I'd probably get away with just the change in environment/setting (to "right-handed", never mentioning sex) without changing my mindset. To be sure I learn to handle fire, I need fire rather than a chilly cave in the forest.
Suppose we had a friend who were an alcoholic. If I simply arranged a relocation for him to a country where they never ever offer alcohol, nor even mention alcohol, then he would very likely stay sober. But, would it make an equally in-depth change in his mind as a decision by himself, and going for it himself, would? IMO, celibacy is a noble path, but for me it would probably be a quick fix, and the changes quite temporary.
My 2 cents
|
 |
|
|
Indian_Mumbai
India
4 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2011 : 9:52:22 PM
|
Thanks HathaTeacher for your valuable input. I totally agree with you, since the left hand path (Vama Marga) is the more natural path, it is the more powerful path.
I really liked the example you gave of an alcoholic. Yes, I agree the change has to come naturally in the mindset and not forced due to circumstances. |
|
|
|
HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2011 : 08:29:27 AM
|
Thanks for the feedback, IM. Yes, it feels natural to me.
Similar to taking some of the yoga mind with me off the mat, into everyday life. In some traditions, I would probably struggle hard with it, being told by a leader it's important. Tantra is about the how, rather than about pushing oneself. |
|
|
|
Indian_Mumbai
India
4 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2011 : 09:29:34 AM
|
| Left hand Tantra is about how to naturally move on the path of spirituality. |
Edited by - Indian_Mumbai on Apr 16 2011 10:08:16 AM |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2011 : 11:02:18 AM
|
| Thanks for defining that IM. I'm afraid otherwise people would be making all kinds of jokes about the meaning of "left hand tantra"! |
|
|
|
Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2011 : 03:27:38 AM
|
| LOL |
|
|
|
Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2011 : 10:22:25 AM
|
Hi Mumbai & Welcome ,
Here are some of my own thoughts & feelings on the subject, in response to your query:-
....Because it's the most natural.To be celibate could also take a lot of discipline but it does'nt sound very celebratory.I'm pretty sure any "orthodox" or classical schools(that just claim allegiance to patanjali say because i've heard that's when a historical divide may have appeared when tantra got a bad name so "yoga" as we know it was re-marketed) that preach even or advocate celibacy must have it wrong or they merely just hint at full-scope Tantra just so you can find out for yourself.There's so much mileage that you would have to be missing something surely??.Which is not to say celibacy is wrong somehow;I'm not saying that. Also brhamacarya to me is surely not dependent on celibacy or not.In fact whether you are celibate or not should'nt even come into it...i.e they're not related. How you conserve say sexual energies or the life-force is your choice.I don't know if there seems to be some or alot of confusion or not as to whether they are related or not but as HathaTeacher says it is the mindset that matters or should be and not any lifestyle choices you may or not make.
I just hear them talked about alot as if they are connected or related.It might serve some use to begin with like to discipline yourself, like training wheels, if you found it difficult to avoid relating to people on that level but otherwise the choice is still there.
I think those schools or yogi people that say you must be celibate must have it wrong surely..or be missing something OR theydon't wish to sound controversial and fear they might get a bad name or reputation if they say such a thing.. and this stemming largely from (wide-spread)ignorance and misunderstanding....especially from people that have'nt practiced the (yogic) techniques themselves and therefore bothered to find out what may be true or not themselves, via, you got it, direct experience.....
'Full-scope tantra',which is a tautology or tautological statement in itself, is just about leaving no stone unturned and using every means available and at your disposal for awakening, "spiritual" development,enlightenement and so on...or whatever you want to call it.
 |
Edited by - Akasha on Apr 21 2011 12:02:02 PM |
|
|
|
nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2011 : 12:07:00 PM
|
| You might have your facts wrong. Tantra involves action. There is a path of direct perception that is perhaps more immediate than tantra that involves no action. What is required is for the master to show it two you. Also tantra assumes an impurity that is to be purified, and a decontamination process. The path of direct perception immediately sees through everything as maya. It is Maya Yoga if you like. Tantra of course is very profound and powerful. In the yoga of maya, all categories are gone. There's no high or low. There is imminent sahaja. |
|
|
|
Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2011 : 2:06:38 PM
|
Hello nodoubt,
quote:
Originally posted by nodoubt
Tantra involves action.
Very true.
quote:
There is a path of direct perception that is perhaps more immediate than tantra that involves no action.
Maybe.
I know that most people need a method or approach otherwise they may end up just stumbling in the dark.
quote:
What is required is for the master to show it two you.
The guru is in you
quote:
Also tantra assumes an impurity that is to be purified, and a decontamination process. The path of direct perception immediately sees through everything as maya. It is Maya Yoga if you like. Tantra of course is very profound and powerful. In the yoga of maya, all categories are gone. There's no high or low. There is imminent sahaja.
I agree with you ;doing nothing usually has more effect than doing something.But many need a method to get there or reach that point although there is nowhere to get to really.
Tantra to me is the grandaddy or Grandmother of yoga and includes jnana yoga perhaps the path you refer to and karma yoga(closely intertwined with the concept of bhakti or devotion....or "spiritual desire" as I believe it's referred to in the first AYP lesson here) the primal seed of all yogas.It covers all methods,all approaches.It basically posits that the microcosm, the self, is the macrocosm, it's reflection and that both are one and the same.The end-point if there such a thing is when the two unite in this realisation.It also works on the premise that energy is the basis of all things and shows how the universe operates along such lines but these are just concepts, or maya like you say and at least for alot of people it may not take them anywhere. Direct perception with the help of the master does'nt sound practical or possible for many people.Depending on what you mean by what you say ,perhaps you are suggesting that just being in the presence of the master this can precipitate spontaneous realisation with his/her grace. I would'nt disupte this or much else for that matter but this is outside my own experience.
If i was really blunt with you and I don't like being blunt with people for risk of offending them & i'm not disputing what you say but what you have said sounds to me like what they call here "building sand-castles in the sky" at least for most people.
Show me The Master then that path sounds more practical at least..I don't believe there are short-cuts to "self-realisation"( though perhaps quicker or more powerful routes) and i have a certain take on the concept of shaktipat; i think one puts in the work with or without a master and all is revealed.I think there is an inherent danger of believing in some kind of salvation figure or divine authority who can save you or it could be misleading at best..and liable to lead to tail-chasing.I think if you look at it this way you forget to rely on & trust the authority of your own experience. Like the difference between seeing the moon with your own eyes and have someone point at it you believe to be the Master in order that you can see it more clearly by having(perhaps more) Light shone on it...
From what i can understand "The Master" you have referred to may hold up a mirror but it's well-polished . |
Edited by - Akasha on Apr 21 2011 2:57:10 PM |
|
|
|
Rajeev Sethi
India
50 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2011 : 01:38:05 AM
|
Akasha, I TOTALLY agree with both your statements, "It is the mindset that matters or should be and not any lifestyle choices you may or not make."
It is the mindset which matters most. The lifestyle should be chosen keeping one's nature in mind.
"I don't believe there are short-cuts to "self-realisation"( though perhaps quicker or more powerful routes) and i have a certain take on the concept of shaktipat; i think one puts in the work with or without a master and all is revealed."
After all, The Guru is in you.
|
Edited by - Rajeev Sethi on Apr 22 2011 03:16:31 AM |
|
|
|
nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2011 : 02:08:44 AM
|
| Akash when talking about the most powerful path, we are already beyond what most people can do. Practically speaking, the highest level is a professional level and is difficult for laymen to pursue. It is most certainly not possible to put in work and discover this on your own. It is the extreme limit at the juncture of ignorance and enlightenment. |
|
|
|
Rajeev Sethi
India
50 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2011 : 04:52:35 AM
|
Nodoubt, can you please tell us more about the 'Highest level.' Any net links to the highest level?
I shall be obliged for the information. |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2011 : 11:20:31 AM
|
Fortunately, Yogani's discovery is that enlightenment is accessible to everyone, and the path is quite easy.
Read the main lessons link above, or any of his books.
It could be confusing to a beginner who is trying to choose a path, if he reads the "most powerful path", and then reads it is not accessible to the layman. That reminds me of TV ads telling poor people they can have everything their heart desires, all they have to do is get rich. . . |
|
|
|
nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2011 : 11:49:54 AM
|
| Rajeev you could read up on it may not do you any good. There are obscure texts that you may not be able to find. Sometimes they are very expensive. Chasing the knowledge can bankrupt you. Then the translations will be misleading. Even those groups of people who claim to have the teachings and teach them openly are not doing well at all. You can knit and patch but the picture will be unclear. The situation is rather gloomy in terms of getting the right understanding by research. Most people resort to praying. Which actually can cause the teacher to appear out of no where. That teacher can come in some pretty unusual guises. One teacher who I find pretty good is Keith Dowman. He gets close. He may be the best person talking and writing books. He has a couple of books on "Radical Dzogchen" where he presents things well in his introductions. Tibetan lamas have a habit of writing long winded things and being religious. But they come close. Their western students tend to get stuck in a rut of their lineage. No one really breaks out of these mandalas. Dowman's translations of Vairochana's short Udiyan works are very close. At the highest level there is simply a "show me" with few words. You run into a teacher and as things pan out you end up on the path. It is just like a moth to the flame. One minute you see it then pfft your world is gone. You can spend a billion lives "chasing your tail" as my friend put it, but when you see maya, the past never existed for even a moment. There is nothing like a description, a story or pattern. It is totally free form play. Eternal maya lila. |
|
|
|
riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
|
|
nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2011 : 12:26:50 PM
|
| Etherfish I realize I am not making myself perfectly clear. I am just floating some hints. I do not agree that there are any discoveries. I agree that enlightenment is accessible to everyone in the sense that everyone can do it and the path is quite easy. It is just not easy to find, unfortunately. Maybe in time it will be easier. When it is found it is ineluctable and involuntary. If I were an aspiring sadhaka I would pray for the final truth until my heart burst. In the meantime I would practice what is fitting as it comes. Just know that if you come to some final "understanding" you had better keep praying. Not understanding is understanding in this realm. It is like you can have everything that your heart desires, because you are already so rich. The story told is of the poor orphan who after years of struggle to adulthood is discovered be royal blood. The king is on his death bed and the orphan is crowned. It is also like the movie "Due Date," where you think you lost your wallet and go through all these misadventures, but your wallet was there the whole time. You do not celebrate when you find it. Probably you feel a little bruised about it, then you just go home. |
|
|
|
Rajeev Sethi
India
50 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2011 : 1:01:12 PM
|
THANKS nodoubt for both your informative replies.
I am keeping in mind your words, "You could read up on it, may not do you any good."
So, I would follow yor advice, Pray for the Final Truth ... and I am sure it would be revealed.
THANKS Riptiz for the link to your guru's ashram. |
Edited by - Rajeev Sethi on Apr 23 2011 1:31:05 PM |
|
|
|
nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2011 : 3:42:39 PM
|
| Rajeev reading Keith Dowman's books won't hurt either. There is within the texts the possibility of awakening from reading. Even if it doesn't happen it could happen later on with the praying. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
What makesTantra the most powerful spiritual path?
