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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 08 2011 : 11:25:53 AM
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Namaste Friends 
Wasn't sure exactly where I should put this topic as it fits both in Jnana section as well as the Yamas section, but I figured here was best... if any of the mods feel it would be better in the Yamas area feel free to move as you see fit.
What I am inquiring into is fairly simple. As I continue down this path to deeper and deeper clarity of mySelf I have come to recognise the conditioning I have in regards to the love of instant gratification. I love to feel good in each and every moment. I often crave it in fact. For example, I love to have sex/orgasms, I love to drink beer, I love to smoke pot, I love to meditate and do yoga practices, etc etc etc... they all make me feel really good in those moments. But, because I have this belief that indulging in some of these things (mainly orgasm, beer and pot... not so much the yoga practices, although I feel a need to keep them to a minimum too, but that's more self pacing then supression of desire I think) will be a detriment to the amount of clarity and spiritual progress/purification received I often suppress this desire for instant gratification. And I am wondering whether the suppression causes as much (or perhaps even more) damage then the actual indulging does.
For example... I have tasted Amrita in my mouth once before and I feel it in my chest and head on occasion as well. I have believed that this was a sign of progress. But I have also noticed that I have had an unconscious belief (which is now consciously seen and being inquired into) that in order to taste/experience the nectar more regularly, I should not ever smoke pot, drink beer or go all the way to orgasm. But there is a "sticky-ness" to this that doesn't feel right either, so I know that there is something that is still unclear here. Can I actually *KNOW* that if I smoke pot (for example) that the regular flow of nectar will not be experienced? Or is it just the belief itself that is causing the withholding of regular nectar flow?
I'm just using nectar flow as an example here too, and perhaps it is not the best example. Perhaps I should go all the way here and say that there has been an unconscious belief (again that is now consciously seen and being inquired into) that in order to be "complete clarity" (I hesitated to use the word enlightenment here for some reason) I can never smoke pot, drink beer or go all the way to orgasm....that I need to overcome my love for instant gratification in order to have complete clarity. But then, as I drop this inquiry into Silence, I notice that I ALREADY have clarity about this... that seeing it IS clarity (even though I don't have any answers). But then my mind wants to jump back in, bringing with it all the beliefs about purification and how using pot and beer etc (obviously in complete moderation) are hindering the process of purification etc.
I don't know that anyone "out there" can give me the answers to my questions here, and I will continue to drop this inquiry into Silence and report any findings back here, but if any of you feel inclined to chime in with your perspectives it would be wonderful. Sometimes an "outside" perspective is just what it takes to "break the ice."
Namaste and thanks for being Here. 
Love!
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2011 : 11:43:57 AM
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Even in just the writing of this there is a shifting.
There is a knowing here that all is as it needs to be, and that there is nowhere to go... that the journey is from here to Here. I have clarity about the fact that I (the body/mind complex) truly enjoys having a beer after a hard days work. I have clarity about the fact that I (the body/mind complex) truly enjoys having a few tokes off of a joint when in the company of good friends or before doing an intensive asana practice. I have clarity about the fact that I (the body/mind complex) truly enjoys the release and physical/energetic pleasure of a full ejaculatory orgasm. There is clarity about this. I also have some clarity and an intuitive sense that the belief that these things are "wrong" and hindering the purification process is at least as detrimental as the actual enjoyment of these activities/substances. But there is also a feeling that if I was truly HERE, that if there was no longing to be "somewhere else," that I wouldn't feel the desire to engage/imbibe in these activities/substances. This, is what I do not have clarity about... yet.
Love!
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2011 : 12:18:39 PM
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Dear Carson,
I have seen a lot of my attachments dropped automatically just by being aware by observing and not intervening with what's going one. Just being with the good and the bad, with the joy and the tension and with the desire behind enjoying what I've made my happiness depended on (people, sex, money, beer...). So enjoy your joint your sex your... but do it with awareness. Gently wake up just watch what's going on and be careful not to mix between awareness and concentration.
IMH experience if it's for the good awareness will make it drop so naturally that you'd be surprised one day how that have dropped (life problems get solved automatically also)
Awareness releases reality to change you.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=9503#81686
Love,
Your brother Ananda |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2011 : 9:11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Ananda
quote:
Awareness releases reality to change you.
Yes.
Awareness is wholeness.
When we open past the illusions of personal will ... Wholeness Is.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2011 : 9:30:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
There is also a feeling that if I was truly HERE, that if there was no longing to be "somewhere else," that I wouldn't feel the desire to engage/imbibe in these activities/substances. This, is what I do not have clarity about... yet.
Hey - Nice PDI*, there, Brother Carson!
(*Public Display of Inquiry )
I have a suggestion that may be helpful in gaining clarity on this last point.
See if the experience of anything is your statement above is possible without thinking.
Just try it out. Let mind rest -- and see if any facet of what you describe above exists in reality -- or if it is all evaluation at the level of thought.
If it's evaluation at the level of thought, I would suggest that it's literally like that brief dream you had last Tuesday night:
Likely not ultra-important, really-now.
Yes?
Svap'no Vikalpah
Thinking is Dreaming.
~Shiva Sutras 1.9
"Do whatever you want, and meditate."
~Swami Lakshmanjoo
Amrita is a milestone, and like all else in form, some of us have more, and some of us have less; in terms of the experience of liberation, ultimately it matters no at all (the neurochemical changes occur for all of us - but the experience of amrita in the mouth, throat, etc. is "all over the map").
Awareness is Liberation; Awareness is Wholeness.
And so are we.
Only investing thinking with reality it doesn't have can make us dream otherwise.
Wholeness Is,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2011 : 02:13:32 AM
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Here is a passage from this chapter in Autobiography of a Yogi, hope its helpful in someway:
Chapter 14: An Experience in Cosmic Consciousness
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Autob...i/Chapter_14
Suddenly the breath returned to my lungs. With a disappointment almost unbearable, I realized that my infinite immensity was lost. Once more I was limited to the humiliating cage of a body, not easily accommodative to the Spirit. Like a prodigal child, I had run away from my macrocosmic home and imprisoned myself in a narrow microcosm.
My guru was standing motionless before me; I started to drop at his holy feet in gratitude for the experience in cosmic consciousness which I had long passionately sought. He held me upright, and spoke calmly, unpretentiously.
"You must not get overdrunk with ecstasy. Much work yet remains for you in the world. Come; let us sweep the balcony floor; then we shall walk by the Ganges."
I fetched a broom; Master, I knew, was teaching me the secret of balanced living. The soul must stretch over the cosmogonic abysses, while the body performs its daily duties. When we set out later for a stroll, I was still entranced in unspeakable rapture.
Now how cool is that?
Having such great experience and then brooming right away with the master!
It just puts the oo in the cool.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2011 : 02:16:03 AM
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Carson..thx for sharing...
enjoy whatever you still want to enjoy but with awarness... you have already that awarness but it is not 100%....only with 100% awarness one will drop those "unwanted" things automatically
ps: i am not sure about your keeping the pot habit ..lol...not because it is "good" or "bad"...just because it creates more unreality...and we have enough unreality dont we?...do i sound like a preacher?...if so please excuse my bluntness... |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2011 : 10:59:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
Here is a passage from this chapter in Autobiography of a Yogi, hope its helpful in someway:
Chapter 14: An Experience in Cosmic Consciousness
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Autob...i/Chapter_14
Suddenly the breath returned to my lungs. With a disappointment almost unbearable, I realized that my infinite immensity was lost. Once more I was limited to the humiliating cage of a body, not easily accommodative to the Spirit. Like a prodigal child, I had run away from my macrocosmic home and imprisoned myself in a narrow microcosm.
My guru was standing motionless before me; I started to drop at his holy feet in gratitude for the experience in cosmic consciousness which I had long passionately sought. He held me upright, and spoke calmly, unpretentiously.
"You must not get overdrunk with ecstasy. Much work yet remains for you in the world. Come; let us sweep the balcony floor; then we shall walk by the Ganges."
I fetched a broom; Master, I knew, was teaching me the secret of balanced living. The soul must stretch over the cosmogonic abysses, while the body performs its daily duties. When we set out later for a stroll, I was still entranced in unspeakable rapture.
Now how cool is that?
Having such great experience and then brooming right away with the master!
It just puts the oo in the cool.
Thank you for sharing dear Manigma
Love,
Ananda |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 04:55:43 AM
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Hi Carson
Sensory experiences......
My tendency to drown in them has always been there. What you are talking about....orgasms, pot, beer......they are all sensory experiences. And the more conscious we become, the deeper the sensory enjoyment too. Simply because - as you say - there is clarity/presence, and this deepens the enjoyment.....
But.....waking up goes beyond sensory experiences. In my experience, the strongest desires I always have to "live through"...probably because I have a stubborn constitution. But luckily the "look" has such a gentleness to it, so it somehow comes out ok. I never could "wise away" these strong desires. It is as if they have to run their course. But - one day finding that the desire is gone....the joy of that is beyond words. That is not a sensory experience, it is just very very quiet. And when that peace started to settle, the sensory desires became ......faint ripples on the surface. Like the others here suggest - being aware while enjoying is so crucial, because as we sense with awareness...this itself is the exposing...the desire being touched by the potency of the look.
One more thing:
At some point along the way ...with all desires....there comes a point where one is fully aware of being in......indulgence. When that happens for me......the conscious choice can be made to not gratify the desire. If I still refuse to act on what the look reveals - it always ends up in suffering. So that is how I learned. And gradually I learned sooner, because I recognized the same dynamic hidden in all the drives.
To not gratify a desire once it is integrated to be an indulgence is not a suppression. It involves samyama.....a conscious release of the craving....to be present while it sinks into the silence.
Carson - enjoy and enjoy wisely, and thanks for posting so openly as always
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 10:34:28 AM
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I've noticed that when my perspective appreciates both the positive and negative that exist in every experience, it is easy to choose to partake or not. I have observed that with the strong desire for a particular experience there is a lack of acknowledgment of the downside of that same experience.
I used to crave an intimate relationship, believing it to be the "be all end all" of experiences. Obviously there is lots to enjoy in this particular experience, but there are things given up as well or other things that can't be experienced simultaneously. In the end, this experience of an intimate relationship is equal to any other experience one can choose to have. It is also equally enjoyable to not experiencing an intimate relationship as well.
I have seen people hold on with a vengeance to a concept of how good some said experience is for them. Everything is both positive and negative, everything is equal but unique. Fully acknowledging this sets us free. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 7:12:03 PM
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Namaste Everyone and thank you for all the great feedback. 
I been working through/processing/doing Samyama on all this over the weekend and would like to share where I am at in this moment, and respond to some of what you all have said.....bear with me as this is gonna be a long one. 
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
I have seen a lot of my attachments dropped automatically just by being aware by observing and not intervening with what's going one. Just being with the good and the bad, with the joy and the tension and with the desire behind enjoying what I've made my happiness depended on (people, sex, money, beer...). So enjoy your joint your sex your... but do it with awareness. Gently wake up just watch what's going on and be careful not to mix between awareness and concentration.
I too have had many attachments dropped/released/etc just by observing and being Present with them. I can totally appreciate the power of (what Katrine calls) "The Look." The Look brings the subconscious into the conscious realm and induces self honesty. Once something is seen, it is hard to deny it.
This weekend was incredibly interesting and awareness inducing with regards to what we are discussing here. My 30th birthday is tomorrow and my wife threw me a surprise birthday party on Friday evening. (Basically) all my friends smoke weed, drink beer, and do other recreational drugs as well and so when we all get together to hang out on a Friday night (especially to celebrate a birthday), it pretty much goes without saying that there is going to be some pot smoking, some beer drinking, and for some, some cocaine use and perhaps more. On Friday after I finished work, I had a friend invite me over to his house to discuss his meditation practice (he's been practicing AYP for a couple of months now) and to smoke a joint with him. I never purchase marijuana anymore, but if offered it, I will weigh the "feeling" inside, and either partake or not. I don't go looking for it, I just allow it to come to me and then decide in the moment whether or not it feels like the right thing to do or not. Anyway, I went over to his house, we discussed his practice while sharing "the sacrament." At one point while smoking, I looked at the joint, and the awareness "centered itself" in the moment. I was "Here" as much as I have ever been "Here." In the moment, in my body, fully aware of "This." Soon after, I left his house as my wife had told me that she needed me to be home soon so we could go out for dinner to celebrate my birthday together. On my way home I found myself in a very interesting state..... I looked at myself in the rearview mirror and TOTALLY did not recognize myself. My awareness expanded well beyond the body and the vehicle and it was very hard for me to identify who I was. The awareness was not "centered" anywhere.... it was everywhere. It was quite funny (laughter inducing) actually. "I" (the awareness) was "unidentified" and I lost all sense of who I was. As I arrived home, I had a moment as I got out of the car in which I realized that "I" had legs. It was one of those total "WOW" moments. I had forgotten how awesome it was to have legs and to be able to walk around independently, and to have a human body. (Perhaps it should be said that none of these effects are "normal" for me after smoking pot. I am *cough cough* well versed in smoking and nothing like this has happened for me before) Anyway, I came in, and had about an hour before we were due to leave for "dinner" (aka my surprise b-day party). I decided I would have a short sit, shower and then we would go. The practice was intense to say the least. I started with SBP (which I only ever do for 5 minutes) and after about 2 minutes I started having some intense automatic yoga. I was having full yoga mudra happening automatically and it was timing itself with the breath. Folding forward on the inhale (touching my chin to the bed on the way down opening the throat chakra) and then raising the torso on the exhale (arms clasped behind the back and lifted quite high up) ending with a strong jalandhara bandha. The sushumna was vividly seen with the internal vision and I was right inside the body during all this. After a couple of minutes I forced myself to stop SBP as it was very obviously getting to be too much for my nervous system to handle. Then I began to drop the mantra inside. It quickly became WAY too intense for me to use the mantra (causing massive amounts of some pretty uncomfortable visions...mostly of the inside of the body) and I just sat in Silence for a couple of minutes before realizing I should just lay down and use the majority of my practice time to rest... which I did. After about 10-12 minutes of rest I went out to grab my daughter so that she could lay in the bed with me and help ground me (she is very good at keeping me grounded).... this seemed to help a lot. The babysitter soon arrived and half an hour later we got into a cab (my first indication that I was expected to get drunk that evening) and drove to an undisclosed location. We arrived at an indoor (virtual) golf place (a favorite place of mine to golf during the off-season) and went inside. There were close to a dozen close friends inside all ready to party. I was surprised to say the least.... I had no clue this was coming. This is where things really start to get interesting for me.
When I smoke pot I generally like to be alone. It is an introspective, inquiry inducing journey for me, and I find it very difficult to socialize or to even want to socialize. I generally want to go inwards when I have smoked pot. Being quite stoned at this point (in the party) and being surprised with having to be social would normally cause a great amount of anxiety and a complete loss of "presence." But I saw this tendency with such clarity in those moments directly after walking into a surprise party that I was able to choose to stay present with the moment and the people surrounding me in that moment. There was no anxiety (despite being completely surprised) and I was able to relax and stay open with my friends and the moment.
For the next few hours we all played 9 holes of virtual golf (hitting golf balls into a screen) and shared each others company, some beer, cake and plenty of laughter. The level of awareness I felt never dropped at all. After golfing we all left to go to a friend's house to continue drinking and socializing. Some of you may know what it is like to get drunk. It is easy to "lose awareness" of yourself, the moment, your inhibitions, etc.... "blackout's" happen and you often don't remember what happened (what you did) until the next day when someone more sober then you tells you what you did. I've had this happen countless times. Now, I don't get drunk anymore. Haven't been drunk since a few months after starting AYP almost 3 years ago now. I enjoy having a few beers on occasion, but I never get drunk anymore. But, this being my birthday party and all, the pressure was on (people buying me beers, shots, etc etc etc) to continue to party. And with the level of awareness I was still feeling, it didn't seem like "the wrong thing to do." So I continued drinking with all my friends, and even had another puff or two off of another joint. But during this whole party (probably close to 7 hours) I never lost any awareness at all. I was completely Present the entire time. Present with myself, present with my compadres. I could see that my physical body was getting slightly intoxicated after several hours of drinking, my coordination started to be less exact etc, but my awareness, my ability to be fully present with the moment was not hindered in anyway. It wasn't "enhanced" but it wasn't hindered either.
Eventually we got a ride back home, where my sister (the babysitter) was waiting. Generally, after a night of partying, I would come home, take a piss and pass right out....waking up with a good ol' headache and feeling like ****. But this time, still being entirely aware and present with what was happening in the moment, I ended up deep in conversation with my sister who is very religious. We talked for probably close to an hour on subjects ranging from parenting to partying to cultivating silence. And I was completely present the entire conversation, not getting lost in thought, not trying to prove any points, just being right there with her.... until my wife told us we had to call it a night so she could go to bed.
All of this is NOT a typical party night for me. I don't really "party" at all anymore, but when I do, I generally don't have more the 3 or 4 beer over the course of the entire night, and I am almost never as present as I was on this night, despite drinking much more then I have in several years.
Now...now lets discuss how I currently feel about "sensual indulgences" in light of this past weekend. (anyone still with me after all that? )
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
See if the experience of anything in your statement above is possible without thinking.
Hey K-man. Upon inquiry, none of what I stated before is possible without thinking. But what I REALLY found interesting was applying your sentence above to the feelings of desire to "imbibe." Is there any desire to imbibe when there is no thinking? .......... Nope! It appears, that the desire for sensual pleasures are directly linked to the thoughts of them. So when there are no thoughts of them, I have no desire for them. Interesting. But now comes (what is for me, still) the "sticky part." I know I am not my thoughts and I know that I have little to no control over what thoughts come into my head. They seem to come as they please. So, as thoughts arise about making the choice to indulge myself in some sensual pleasures, I can choose to let the go (samyama style) or I can choose to act on them. It's a choice. There is nothing subconscious about it, it is a "yes I want to" or a "no I don't." It then becomes a question (for me) of whether it is "right or wrong" to indulge myself in sensual pleasures. (I will touch on this a bit later when I respond to Katrine)
@Manigma: Thanks for that. Autobiography of a Yogi was the book that first got me interested in the "internal" aspects of yoga practice. Before reading that book I had no idea that there was more to "yoga" then some stretching exercises.
With regards to what is said in the passage you quoted.... Yes, I can see that it could be very easy to get attached to the amazing experiences that can come as a result of advanced yoga practices, partaking of drugs or being in the presence of a master, and not wanting to go back to "mundane existence".... this could easily create a "pining" for more experiences like what we have just had. But my question to you is this.... does partaking of these things which cause dramatic experiences automatically create "attachment?" To me, it doesn't seem like that is going to always be the case. After this past weekend, I feel that I could really care less if I have another beer, smoke another joint, or have another ejaculatory orgasm ever again. BUT, does the fact that this desire appears to have been dropped mean that I should never do these things again? I have a feeling that I will still enjoy these sensory indulgences just as much even though I am not pining for them. Is it the pining for these experiences that causes the obstructions or is it the experiences themselves that causes problems?
@Maheswari: Don't worry, you don't sound like a preacher and I appreciate your advice. I guess it all comes down to whether or not these things are actually "unwanted" or not. Who is doing the wanting?
@Katrine:
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
My tendency to drown in them has always been there. What you are talking about....orgasms, pot, beer......they are all sensory experiences. And the more conscious we become, the deeper the sensory enjoyment too. Simply because - as you say - there is clarity/presence, and this deepens the enjoyment.....
That is pretty much exactly how things felt this weekend. Having several drinks, smoking some pot, etc, all of this was enjoyed so much more then it ever has been before, simply because I was totally present throughout the entire experience. I haven't had the tendency (basically since I started AYP) to "drown" in these experiences though.... I have enjoyed all this sensory indulgence with moderation. But based on what you say after the quoted paragraph above, I almost wonder if I shouldn't go totally hog-wild, have a two week party-my-ass-off kind of thing, and see if that makes me never want to touch beer or weed again. Something doesn't feel right about entertaining that as an option though. I wonder if things won't take a different course for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
At some point along the way ...with all desires....there comes a point where one is fully aware of being in......indulgence. When that happens for me......the conscious choice can be made to not gratify the desire.
Yes...... as I mentioned to you on the day I was leaving Boston, I am aware that allowing myself to smoke pot and drink beer is pure indulgence. But what I am wondering now, is whether or not it is "wrong" to indulge in sense pleasures? I have enough awareness to choose to indulge or not to, but what are the benefits of not indulging? Are there actually negative consequences to indulging myself with a joint or is the only negative consequence my thoughts that indulging in this is negative? What if my "indulgence" was chocolate and not marijuana... would that be any different?
@Anthem:
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I've noticed that when my perspective appreciates both the positive and negative that exist in every experience, it is easy to choose to partake or not. I have observed that with the strong desire for a particular experience there is a lack of acknowledgment of the downside of that same experience.
This was really great advice for me and it really spawned some deep inquiry here. I'm really trying to look at what the positives and negatives are for each of the "indulgences" that I find myself attracted to. I don't find that there is much for negatives with indulging myself in a beer or two every so often. If I get carried away and have several drinks in an evening the negatives exponentially increase (although there was a surprising lack of any hangover this weekend after staying completely present during my party). With marijuana the main negative seems to be in regards to craving/desire. If I indulge myself, I seem to want to indulge again soon after. It becomes more difficult to use in moderation the more I allow myself to indulge. There is also the negative (2-day) "hangover" effect with pot as well, but again, surprisingly this didn't happen after this weekends party same as there was no alcohol hangover. I don't have enough experience with remaining totally present during intoxication to say whether or not this was the reason there was no hangover, but, I'd be interested in hearing other's experiences with regards to this (as I don't really want to continue to test this with enough regularity to be certain).
But, as you say, people that are incredibly attached to any given experience seem to have an "ax to grind" and will only acknowledge the positive aspects of the experience. Perhaps some more in depth inquiry into the negative effects of marijuana and beer is in order.
Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I'm truly sorry for responding with a novel. 
Love!
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 9:54:02 PM
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Sounds like a great time to me! ...but I try to dwell only on the positive ...
Congratulations on your 30th birthday CarsonZi! |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 11:26:23 PM
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| All things in moderation. And even without moderation, the opening process continues here. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2011 : 01:55:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Is it the pining for these experiences that causes the obstructions or is it the experiences themselves that causes problems?
"The yogi is greater than body-disciplining ascetics, greater even than the followers of the path of wisdom (Jnana Yoga), or of the path of action (Karma Yoga); be thou, O disciple Arjuna, a yogi!"
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Autob...i/Chapter_26
That said, what is your understanding of the word Yogi? How would you define a Yogi?
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WoodDragon
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2011 : 08:01:49 AM
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I may be a bit late to this party, this is my first time replying to a topic and I wanted to give it some thought before I said anything but i knew i really wanted to.
CarsonZi, living on the roller-coaster of the pleasures of life can indeed be perilous for us all and yet those pleasures are here for a reason in my mind. Nothing exists which should not be, what is most important is the manner in which we participate in all that life brings to us. I think you know this already but it does bear stating nonetheless.
The largest factor in my own mind on the issues you have brought up is the Purity of Intent. When we seek out with grasping need for things in the outside world to fill any void within ourselves then we fall into the trap of attachment. When life approaches us with gifts of bliss and we partake of them with an open heart and an understanding of what we are doing then we may enjoy the pleasures of this world without concern that we are grasping for meaning form outside influences.
Moderation has been brought up, yes, that is important and with moderation there should be the detachment from the need for desires and so these pleasures which we find in life cannot do us harm for our own Inner Bliss and Divine Love have filled any voids we may have had within us. In my own experiences I have found that the wondrous Bliss and Joy from within maintains our perspective on pleasure from the outer world, thus "pining" and excess are not needed nor desired.
I say enjoy the the pleasures of life without fear so long as your perspective is one where your Inner Self is filled with the Bliss and Love that can only arise from within.
Think of it this way if you are of a mind to: the pleasures in life can be appetizers for our meal of life, Inner Silence, Bliss and Divine Love are our main entree! Dessert is the sharing and service to others.
Namaste
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vijikr
United Arab Emirates
413 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2011 : 08:44:22 AM
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Namaste Carsonzi,
I feel there is nothing wrong as long as YOU ARE AWARE of it and most importantly LET GO of it...
Hope you and everyone expereince the Eternal Bliss/Silence!
Love n Light
Viji |
Edited by - vijikr on Apr 11 2011 08:46:46 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2011 : 10:55:29 AM
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Happy Birthday dear Carson and you lost me somewhere while reading you long post
Wish you all the best bro |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2011 : 12:56:22 PM
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Happy Birthday Carson
quote:
But based on what you say after the quoted paragraph above, I almost wonder if I shouldn't go totally hog-wild, have a two week party-my-ass-off kind of thing, and see if that makes me never want to touch beer or weed again. Something doesn't feel right about entertaining that as an option though. I wonder if things won't take a different course for me.
No I do not mean that. When I say the strongest desires is something i have to "live through" I do not mean that I consciously initiate this unfolding. But it is indeed manifesting out of this very constallation. It is a spontaneous happening, life will place me in situations where I can not avoid myself. It is however only in hindsight - when all is seen through and through and the letting go has happened - that I understand the complete workings of it.
quote:
Yes...... as I mentioned to you on the day I was leaving Boston, I am aware that allowing myself to smoke pot and drink beer is pure indulgence. But what I am wondering now, is whether or not it is "wrong" to indulge in sense pleasures? I have enough awareness to choose to indulge or not to, but what are the benefits of not indulging? Are there actually negative consequences to indulging myself with a joint or is the only negative consequence my thoughts that indulging in this is negative? What if my "indulgence" was chocolate and not marijuana... would that be any different?
Well - the way I read your statement ....it is contradictory. Being aware....is not a constant....there is a dynamic aspect in it and the level of depth in the seeing is also always maturing along the way. So when you say that you are "aware of indulging" and then at the same time ask "what are the benefits of not indulging" - then maybe gently inquire into this.
Nothing is ever a constant when it comes to the scenery - this much we know. Things keep changing. At the same time things are also always inter-related. This we also know.
I ask myself....if I wonder and pose questions....what is my deepest intention with this question?
Am I totally open?
Am I trying to verify a stand i have already taken?
If so, why is this unconscious?
Is there a resistance to letting go?
Do I want to get rid of a habit more than letting go of it?
If so, why?
If the answer is not what I want, am I willing to stay with things as they are so that an unfolding can come about organically?
etc etc.
Big hug brother
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2011 : 1:34:59 PM
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Hi Carson, And Happy Birthday!.
Your experiences, observations, and questions are always an interesting read. I loved your party story, and it is pretty much how I experience parties as well. I have not yet found a substance that causes me to lose my awareness, which takes a bit of the fun out of parties, given that everyone else is in a different space.
It sounds like your ongoing question is "should I indulge, or not?"
Whenever I see "should", I realise that the question is being measured against some (hidden) belief, and it's the belief that "should" be examined.
My experience and perspective suggest to me that there is nothing particularly right or wrong about sensory experience. It is just a natural part of who we are, and how we are built; although I shy away from creating habitual loops of blind indulgence - To me, that's a little too much like undoing years of hard work.
My understanding of how we, humans, are built is based on personal observation and is informed by psychology, and the major spiritual cosmologies (esp Hindu, Buddhist, Judaic). I mention this because you have noted that sensory experience cannot exist without thoughts - well - I have found that there appear to be causal links between the body and the feelings and emotions, which in turn link to the Mind. The Mind mediates inputs from the body, feelings, emotions, and "Spirit", and generates more actions, thoughts, feelings, emotions, consciousness and experience.
The point of all of this is that "being alive" REQUIRES an alive body, feelings, emotions, thoughts, experiences, and awareness. You simply cannot exist without these, so attempting to remove something like sensory experience will simply leave you crippled.
I realise I'm being a little obvious here, but I've seen too many people suppress natural functions just because they thought that's what they "should" do.
I hope that you can see from the party experience, that you can enjoy sensory pleasures and retain clarity at the same time. Clarity is not exclusive - to be reserved just for peaceful pursuits. I would paraphrase Sw Lakshmanjoo and say "Do whatever you want, and be meditative". After all, the three main aspects of Being (Sat, Chit, Anand) are also three paths, and becoming whole is experiencing all three: Emptiness, Awareness, and Joy. I think that Equanimity/Emptiness, Awareness/Consciousness, and Joy/Bliss are intrinsic to us, so that in any context, a flow of enjoyment and/or awareness is natural and to be expected.
quote:
But there is also a feeling that if I was truly HERE, that if there was no longing to be "somewhere else," that I wouldn't feel the desire to engage/imbibe in these activities/substances.
NB:"Should", has a partner called "If".
Rephrasing your quote says, "Because I'm longing to be somewhere else, I feel the desire to engage/imbibe"
Duh, Yeah. Isn't that the main reason why we experiment with creating alternate mental states?
I think it's natural to keep doing this until the longing is satisfied by our arrival at home in Awareness/Enlightenment. After all, our major source of information is the Mind, and the Mind will always offer new mind-states because that's all it can offer. It can't offer whatever is beyond Mind.
I've yet to meet someone without the deep inner longing, and I'm confident that it's an existential part of being human - ie: We can dimly feel the joy and bliss of our true being, and we just want to be there.
Putting your "Should" together with your "If", leads me to: "Being HERE satisfies all my longing and desires"
Now, that's a statement straight from Buddha, but it's also a tiny truth that exists in all of us all of the time.
I began to wonder .. What are the roots to this idea that what you are doing may be wrong?
A simple answer would be that any activity/experience that does not bring you HERE, is in conflict with Being HERE, and thus feels wrong.
I would also guess that sometimes you intuit that your indulgence has gone past what is optimum for getting to your HERE, and that feels wrong, however, this wrongness is simply your own inner steering implementing a course correction.
Of course, feeling the sense of longing, means you are not HERE, you are elsewhere.
If you know that, and you attempt to get HERE, but you don't know how, you try whatever occurs to you, and that usually means trying for new mind states. I guess that mental solutions worked for us before, so they are the first thing we try, but after a while we see that they don't really work, so they feel a bit wrong, even if we still derive some enjoyment from them.
Then again, some get depressed if after much effort, they don't get any HERE, and then indulgence is for comfort, which is often just what we need, but it can be interpreted as "wrong".
To me, these are a few of the normal ways we humans progress to a target (and a non-target). It's a bit of a ramble, and I don't think there's anything new in what I've said, but it seemed an appropriate answer. I only hope there's something useful for you in it.
Namaste |
Edited by - BuddhiHermit on Apr 12 2011 2:04:05 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2011 : 3:51:27 PM
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Hi Everyone! Thanks for all the great feedback! Sorry I haven't been more "attentive" to all the comments in a more timely fashion but things have been rather nuts over here lately and there just hasn't been time to be on the forum much these days. I have a few minutes right now though so I'd like to address what's been said and indicate the progression this inquiry is taking here.
@Manigma: quote:
That said, what is your understanding of the word Yogi? How would you define a Yogi?
I can't define Yogi (and have never had a desire to either). To me, everything is Yoga in one form or another, and that technically makes everyone a Yogi.
@WoodDragon: First, welcome to the forum! Super happy to have you here and to have you contribute to this thread. Cheers!
Secondly, I'm on the same page as you with the "purity of intent" thing. Everything I do, from work, to being a dad, to smoking pot to teaching AYP, all of it is done with the intent of "waking up," of having complete clarity (irradicating all confusion), of being truly present in the here and now. Everything is spiritual practice for me. When I smoke pot, I use it as a sacrament, I use it as an offering, a celebration of Life. I believe it is used with pure intentions. It is the same with sex, beer, entheogens etc. It is all partaken of with awareness and intent. I guess the only mental issue I have with it all is the reality that I know I don't need any of it.... my use of these things is purely indulgent. But so is eating chocolate or cake or watching a movie or any of the other indulgences that don't hold the stigma of drug/alcohol/sex. I find it hard to draw the line sometimes between chocolate and marijuana if you get what I am saying.
quote:
....the pleasures in life can be appetizers for our meal of life, Inner Silence, Bliss and Divine Love are our main entree! Dessert is the sharing and service to others.
This has got to be one of the best two sentences I have read in a LONG time. I am so so glad you have joined the forum and I truly hope you will continue to contribute your perspective and wisdom with us all. Thank you.
@Katrine: quote:
So when you say that you are "aware of indulging" and then at the same time ask "what are the benefits of not indulging" - then maybe gently inquire into this.
What I meant by this was that I am aware that partaking in sense pleasures is simply indulgent. But what I don't understand is why I feel the draw NOT to indulge. Why do I have this idea that there is something wrong with enjoying sense pleasures? This is where the confusion is. In my heart I feel that there is nothing wrong with indulging myself in the sensual pleasures of life, but in my head, my mind says that this can't be right.
What is my deepest intention with this question?
My deepest intention is to irradicate any and all confusion.
Am I totally open?
Not always... the level of openness is never constant.
Am I trying to verify a stand i have already taken?
Perhaps. I am uncertain about this. I know that I have tried to hold fast to the belief that there is benefit to substance use in particular, but I feel pretty detached from this at this point... but perhaps there is something unconscious here still.
If so, why is this unconscious?
Because it is..... and it is not for a lack of trying to bring it into the conscious realm... it just is.... or it isn't. 
Again, I don't have clarity around whether or not there is something unconscious creating the confusion around whether or not indulgent sense pleasures can still be enjoyed while continuing the spiritual unfolding. If I knew, then it wouldn't be unconscious.
Is there a resistance to letting go?
Yes.
Do I want to get rid of a habit more than letting go of it?
If so, why?
There is no "habit" with these things (weed, beer, orgasm). But I still have resistance to letting go of them. And I guess the reason why is because I enjoy them and I'm not sure that there is more benefit in letting go of them or using them wisely. But in saying that I already have my answer. I obviously need to let go of them in order to use them wisely.
If the answer is not what I want, am I willing to stay with things as they are so that an unfolding can come about organically?
I am willing to do whatever it takes to "wake up"..... no matter how difficult. This is why I am inquiring into this. I guess I've been hoping that I can hold onto *something* while waking up, but I am realizing now that this is not possible. Everything has to be let go of.
@BuddhiHermit: Thank you for the wise and well worded post. It is always great to get your perspective on things here. Thank you.
quote:
It sounds like your ongoing question is "should I indulge, or not?"
Close. I think it is more of a "Why do I feel that there is something wrong with indulging myself" but yeah, you're basically right.
quote:
I shy away from creating habitual loops of blind indulgence - To me, that's a little too much like undoing years of hard work.
Yes, I am the same here. There is no habit in my partaking of sense pleasures. I partake when the opportunity comes of itself and it feels right, but I have no desire to go back to the way I was back in my "addicted" phase. I am free from drug addiction etc now so I stay well away from creating any habits around my indulgences... I know where that road goes and I have no desire to continue down that path. At. All.
quote:
I mention this because you have noted that sensory experience cannot exist without thoughts
If I said that it was a typo. What I was MEANING to say was that the DESIRE for any specific sensory experience does not exist without thought. You are right when you say there is no escaping sensory experience. No argument there!
Also, I should clarify. I have no (conscious) desire to "be somewhere else." What I was meaning in my earlier post is that there is this thought that if I didn't have an *unconscious* desire to be somewhere else, then I would never feel the inclination to partake in a joint or a beer or have an orgasm. But this doesn't feel right to me. I am more then happy to never smoke a joint, drink a beer or have another orgasm. But when the opportunities present themselves for these things, I find it really hard to locate a desire NOT to partake.
The only real "longing" that I feel at this point is to irradicate all confusion... to have complete clarity 24/7. I loathe confusion. But I can also see that I need to embrace confusion. I need to be okay with not having total clarity 24/7 simply because that's how it is sometimes. I am NOT always clear. And that needs to be accepted and embraced.
I have more to say on all this but I have run out of time for today. Thanks to all for reading and being such excellent mirrors for me. I am truly blessed.
Love!
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2011 : 6:51:35 PM
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Hey Brother Carson & All,
Evaluation is the source-code for the dream.
Doubt and Doubter create each other.
Thinking is partiality.
Awareness is wholeness.
Wholeness is.
Kirtanman
PS - And Happy Birthday, Brother Carson! (Between here and Facebook, I'm pretty sure I've offered BDay wishes each of the last three days -- hopefully, one of them was the correct day! <- Yesterday, right?).
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 12 2011 6:53:42 PM |
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WoodDragon
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2011 : 7:16:58 PM
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This particular quote jumped out at me and I felt an urge to respond to it as I hear it often enough that the topic itself brings concern in me for others:
"Why do I feel that there is something wrong with indulging myself"
Guilt is one of the toughest mental activities to let go of. We are taught from a very early age that indulgence is "wrong", mainly as it can lead to serious spiritual and emotional difficulties. It can interfere with Purity of Intent, as an example. This does not mean indulgence necessarily does lead to debilitating excesses but it can if left unchecked.
Awareness of our intentions in this case is similar to driving your car while wearing a seat-belt. Leaving for a moment the benefits of wearing one or not (there can be very heated discussions about this)the purpose of a seat-belt is to protect you just in case something goes wrong. It does not mean anything will go wrong, but it is there as a precaution. Self awareness is our seat-belt in the case of indulgence. No guilt needs to be applied. As long as you can look in a mirror and say with total honesty that you are simply enjoying the gifts of life for what they are and that you are not attempting to fulfill your sense of happiness and Bliss with outside attractions and attachments, then you are Golden and you can move on.
Even if you are indulging without Purity of Intention and seeking happiness outside yourself (for it is a truth that happiness only can emerge from within us) I see no benefit to feeling a sense of guilt or worry about how "wrong" you might be.
Guilt is a chain which shackles us and prevents us from finding true Liberation. Awareness of our actions and practicing Purity of Intent do help us to Liberate ourselves and find Bliss and Divine Love through a finding of Truth.
Look within. See your actions from a detached point of view and then make a decision as to how attached you really are to gaining happiness through that which comes from outside of you.
Remember, you are in charge of your own emotions, you can choose how you feel just as you can choose your own actions. All emotions come from within us as a consequence of how we decide to respond to the world and to ourselves. Instead of guilt, choose Compassion for yourself. If you are capable of being Compassionate with yourself, then you are well on the way to having true Compassion for others.
Guilt wounds, Compassion heals. Guilt is a learned response to attachments and has no place in Divine Love. Compassion is the consequence of Divine Love and the cure for guilt.
It is my true hope that this was helpful for you.
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2011 : 10:14:52 PM
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Hi Carson,
I hope I'm not flogging this, but my attention was drawn to some things, and then some thoughts followed:
quote:
The only real "longing" that I feel at this point is to eradicate all confusion... to have complete clarity 24/7
Understood. - For me, sometimes it's Clarity, and sometimes it's Joy, and sometimes it's both. Until it arrives 24/7 I live in a natural state of cycling through many mind-states, looking forward to the next Clear time - some call this confusion.
quote:
But when the opportunities present themselves for these things, I find it really hard to locate a desire NOT to partake.
Does this mean that you feel you should be finding a reason not to partake?
I say reason, because desire tends to have a single focus at a time, and while you are desiring indulgence, you can't also desire something else, ... and desire NOT to, is not a desire.
quote:
I guess the only mental issue I have with it all is the reality that I know I don't need any of it.... my use of these things is purely indulgent.
Does this mean that you have a belief that there is is something wrong in experiencing anything more than a need, on the path?
(I was quite surprised when I saw some of the puritanical beliefs I'd bought in to - so cliche'd)
quote:
But I have also noticed that I have had an unconscious belief ... that in order to taste/experience the nectar more regularly, I should not ever ...
Clarity works independently, without reference to mind states - whereas nectar is linked to mind states, so this belief works for psychic phenomena but not for Clarity.
Through both positive uplifting, and negative suppression, the mind blocks Clarity. Direct perception, and direct enjoyment of sensory experience without interpretation or preference co-exists happily with Clarity.
After performing sadhana with results for a while, we begin to form a view that we are influencing or controlling the process to some extent. The rational thought then is that we can do it better/faster by doing more of what seems to work, and less of what we did in the past. Past indulgences can then seem wrong too.
I enjoy flogging interesting points to myself - with, or without results. After a while, my fickle nature reasserts itself, as I lose all interest in the issue, and it's result, and I return to my practice.
Namaste |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2011 : 12:06:11 AM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
In my heart I feel that there is nothing wrong with indulging myself in the sensual pleasures of life, but in my head, my mind says that this can't be right.
I would just follow your heart and go along with it. As you hit the right time, this stuff will naturally drop out and as long as they don't I would enjoy them. ^^
In my opinion, the resistance in your mind comes from an idea that you have. You might think that you should not indulge because it will hinder your spiritual progress(?). You know, just having an expectation of how one should be when one is developing towards enlightement, will already set the mind off to search for things that are not the way you are supposed to be. Just an idea, maybe I'm totally wrong. ^^
So the remaining question is, how do you get rid off the resistance in your mind? Hope you'll find the answer ^^
Hope I could give a usefull input.
Yaming |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2011 : 02:57:01 AM
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quote:
@Katrine:
quote:
"So when you say that you are "aware of indulging" and then at the same time ask "what are the benefits of not indulging" - then maybe gently inquire into this."
What I meant by this was that I am aware that partaking in sense pleasures is simply indulgent. But what I don't understand is why I feel the draw NOT to indulge. Why do I have this idea that there is something wrong with enjoying sense pleasures? This is where the confusion is. In my heart I feel that there is nothing wrong with indulging myself in the sensual pleasures of life, but in my head, my mind says that this can't be right.
Sometimes I contribute to confusion....sorry
Nothing wrong, exactly. All is well. But in proportion to what? We do after all engage in a relative world.
So.....when you know your objective is to wake up.....what is the intelligent thing to do? This takes more than clarity. It takes wisdom. Wisdom is a result of a dynamic, organic integration of many aspects.
Forget about my questions in the previous post. There is inquiry.....and then there is direct inquiry. Here is another way of looking at it:
Mind will always ask "why". "Why do I have this idea that there is something wrong with enjoying sense pleasures?" But in my experience...the "why" is always out of the scope of direct inquiry. So here I am not interested in why....to have the answer to "why" as a way of eradicating confusion will always rob me of the direct experience. I am interested in the dynamics of the fact that there is ....a draw not to indulge. I am also interested in the fact that there is confusion. Staying (looking at/witnessing) with these facts for as long as it takes will reveal....myself to myself. Not in words and linear explanations....but in direct experience.
Mind and heart......can be in clarity and attachment respectively. Clarity of mind doesn't always imply a non-attached heart. And vice versa. So - as long as there is confusion, stay with the fact that you don't know what's what. This is actual clarity.
quote:
But what I don't understand is why I feel the draw NOT to indulge
When the draw to not indulge is here (experiencially...not intellectually) - stay with the draw instead of indulging. See what surfaces.
Also - just a comment on the chocolate thing
We have to look at the result of our indulgences. What are the residues in our nervous system....of chocolate.....of alcohol...of pot? And where is the edge where the indulgence cross over into the land of addiction, which is always a burden in my experience.....
And:
To be hooked on clarity....is also an attachment. When enjoying mind altering substances....where the consciousness expands....where greater clarity is felt.....new perspectives seen....(what do I know I never smoked anything - but I am reading your description so correct me if I am wrong)....in my ears it sounds very easy to fall into greater and greater attachment to the power of clarity and expansion. So even if pot for you is not a habit......this attachment to greater clarity is a fact.
Clarity is a station too. I do not want to land there. No more than I want to land in the land of ecstacy.
The seeds spread from all blossoms...usually when/right before they shrivel and graciously fall to the ground. The ability to naturally discern....is for everyone and everything else. So that starters, main course and deserts can be enjoyed everywhere.
Let me fall. And fall again......for as long as it is needed.
Much love Carson
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2011 : 03:19:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
To me, everything is Yoga in one form or another, and that technically makes everyone a Yogi.
If that were the case then there would be no need for Yoga.
Its only because we have lost our true nature that Yoga came into existence.
I know you have read the book but it seems you have forgotten its essence.
"CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA" - Patanjali's YOGA SUTRA I:2
"Cessation of the modification of the mind stuff". Chitta is a comprehensive term for the thinking principle, which includes the pranic life forces, manas (mind or sense consciousness), ahankara (egoity) and buddhi (intuitive intelligence). Vritti (literally 'whirlpool' refers to the waves of thought and emotions that ceaselessly arise and subside in man's consciousness. Nirodha means neutralization, cessation, control.
~Autobiography of a Yogi
Thoughts create -> Desire activates -> Pranic Energy gives power to -> Impulse leads to -> Indulgence which may or may not cause -> Energy Leak/Waste which makes the man -> Dumbfound/Stupid or Fall/Asleep
Yoga is swimming against the current of Maya, acting against the nature of the mind, against the formal law of the earth, against Pravritti and against everything that is pleasant to the being of the earth.~Sivananda
That said, if you really remain TOTALLY AWARE during Sex (which is basically an act of two bodies becoming instruments to produce children), you will never reach orgasm or wish for it. NEVER!
And if you are TOTALLY AWARE of your body (its inner feelings/energy pattern) before smoking pot, you will never smoke or drink beer.
Its only when you are not in your true Natural state that you indulge yourself in such puny/false earthly gratifications. Which, as you very well know can NEVER gratify.
A yogi possesses limitless energy. Because only the limitless can meet the limitless.
Yogi = The true image of God. A real Human.
Be thou, O disciple Arjuna, a yogi!
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Instant gratification vs belief about purification
