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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 1:07:16 PM
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Wanted to share some observations on an aspect of the root of suffering and happiness in case others find it of interest too.
Have been observing the reasons that people give when discussing their emotional state, specifically about whether or not they are happy or unhappy with a given situation or about their lives in general.
It seems that suffering or happiness can be traced back to a person's perception about what they think that they are getting or not getting from each experience/ situation they have in their lives.
In other words, a person who looks for all the things that he or she is getting out of a particular situation, no matter how seemingly bleak at first, will find gratitude and happiness in life. Repeat this several millions of times over countless life experiences and you will find love for all that is and perhaps "enlightenment" too depending on your definition of it.
A person who thinks about all that they are missing out on, all the things that he or she is not getting or not going to be able to do from a particular situation, will find suffering and general unhappiness. Repeat this several million times as you go through life and find depression, anger, stress, anxiety and a whole host of compounded difficulties.
This appears to be the first consideration that we humans instinctively make about what is presenting to us in our lives. "What does this circumstance mean? Is this a "good" thing or a "bad" thing? What am I going to be able to do or not do because of this?" etc.
Open for general discussion if anyone is interested? |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 10:37:59 PM
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An Attitude of Gratitude for a good mood.
This is how 'relational self inquiry' happens as I understand it. One by one these negative/limiting ideas dissolve in silence without me hardly noticing them - until some day I will find myself feeling good about everything that's happening all day long. So far I still spend a lot of time in the 'what am I getting' attitude. Here's to shifting toward 'what have I got' - thanks Anthem. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 10:34:53 AM
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Wow, I must admit it to you dear Anthem: I really like your topics and posts, and consider them to be very deep and relational...
I was sort of having the same conversation today with a friend. She was saying how her day was wasted (a day of her life) and she didn't benefit anything from it or enjoy it... While I was saying: consider it as a day of rest.
All in all my attitude toward all this, is trying to look toward the positive result out of everything and learning from everything as well. For example a couple of weeks back, I was shouted at from my boss at work and somehow the idea that sprout was hey the guy is behaving my ego and speaking for my own good...
So yes I feel I am getting something from each and every experience, bad or good may it be... And sometimes getting more from the bad than the good.
Namaste
Love,
Ananda |
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Still
Ireland
19 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2010 : 06:31:11 AM
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Hi Anthem,
Thank you for your post. I agree that a great deal of suffering occurs as a result of the way we label an experience, which then leads us to an emotional response. I have seen this again and again in my work with people and experienced it myself. I feel the challenge lies eventually in the letting go of the labels, being at peace with whatever occurs in our life.... not grasping and not rejecting... while maintaining a deep trust and 'okay-ness' about it.
This continues to remain difficult with big issues in my own life, in particular a relationship issue with my father, but I continue to work on it...noticing the labels, and the emotional response and practising letting go, and I feel that it helps for me to be thankful for all that I do have too.
Love and Light,
Still |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2010 : 11:23:01 AM
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Thanks for the kind words Ananda
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
So yes I feel I am getting something from each and every experience, bad or good may it be... And sometimes getting more from the bad than the good.
Namaste
Love,
Ananda
I agree, every situation offers both, benefit and loss, and recognizing what we get feels good and seems to become a habit with daily practices. Loving what is, as they say. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2010 : 11:58:51 AM
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Hi Still,
Welcome to the AYP forums. Nicely said, not grasping and not rejecting, the third way or the balanced way: accepting.
I have noticed that as we see both sides of the situation, the "positive" and the "negative", we no longer attach. It is like the magnetic attraction is nullified, we see the whole and are made whole by seeing it this way. If we see just positive or just negative, suffering is speeding towards us, it is just a matter of how much and when. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2010 : 2:25:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Loving what is, as they say.
namaste |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2010 : 9:50:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Wanted to share some observations on an aspect of the root of suffering and happiness in case others find it of interest too.
Have been observing the reasons that people give when discussing their emotional state, specifically about whether or not they are happy or unhappy with a given situation or about their lives in general.
It seems that suffering or happiness can be traced back to a person's perception about what they think that they are getting or not getting from each experience/ situation they have in their lives.
In other words, a person who looks for all the things that he or she is getting out of a particular situation, no matter how seemingly bleak at first, will find gratitude and happiness in life. Repeat this several millions of times over countless life experiences and you will find love for all that is and perhaps "enlightenment" too depending on your definition of it.
A person who thinks about all that they are missing out on, all the things that he or she is not getting or not going to be able to do from a particular situation, will find suffering and general unhappiness. Repeat this several million times as you go through life and find depression, anger, stress, anxiety and a whole host of compounded difficulties.
This appears to be the first consideration that we humans instinctively make about what is presenting to us in our lives. "What does this circumstance mean? Is this a "good" thing or a "bad" thing? What am I going to be able to do or not do because of this?" etc.
Open for general discussion if anyone is interested?
Hi Anthem,
I think you have a great point.
But I don't think that is all there is to it.
Suffering comes in a variety of guises. And while bliss is available at all times, some suffering is very real, and cannot be avoided.
That is because one can feel bliss, even in the midst of intense suffering. Suffering does not disappear when one has attained bliss consciousness. You could say it is transformed, but it does not cease to exist.
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2010 : 9:12:46 PM
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The Buddha said that life is suffering, it must be a continuing experience of human life. Without suffering to learn from, we stand no chance of facing REALITY face to face. Suffering is our most cherished teacher. The REAL suffering comes when you go through this experience and fail to learn the lessons and accept change. What a wasted opportunity--you paid the price of admission, but failed to enter! Such a shame...
Michael |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2010 : 11:34:00 PM
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Hi,
Here are some of Nisargadatta's views on suffering from "I AM THAT":
"To understand suffering, you must go beyond pain and pleasure. Your own desires and fears prevent you from understanding and thereby helping others. In reality there are no others, and by helping yourself you help everybody else. If you are serious about the sufferings of mankind, you must perfect the only means of help you have -- Yourself."
"Q: What is the real cause of suffering?
M: Self-identification with the limited (vyaktitva). Sensations as such, however strong, do not cause suffering. It is the mind bewildered by wrong ideas, addicted to thinking: 'I am this' 'I am that', that fears loss and craves gain and suffers when frustrated."
"Q: Must we not suffer to grow?
M: It is enough to know that there is suffering, that the world suffers. By themselves neither pleasure nor pain enlighten. Only understanding does. Once you have grasped the truth that the world is full of suffering, that to be born is a calamity, you will find the urge and the energy to go beyond it. Pleasure puts you to sleep and pain wakes you up. If you do not want to suffer, don't go to sleep. You cannot know yourself through bliss alone, for bliss is your very nature. You must face the opposite, what you are not, to find enlightenment"
:)
TI |
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sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Dec 25 2010 : 5:17:03 PM
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Happy holidays to the forum readers and thanks to the forum providers.... thanks for being here.
I wanted to say that so much of what I read looks like it is text book. Needless to say, it would not hurt if I, took the opportunity to read more of anything...even this very forum here. But from this angle everything seems to have a 'general' statement....
so I would say something like....so and so could be suffering from a box not showing up from William Sonoma on-time and is suffering from the incompetance of the order takers...meanwhile someone else is soon to be scheduled to have their toes amputated from diabetes....
and how I think I am suffering looks like that I don't take much effort in my life to take care of myself and to work harder...I slowly stop making effort to brush my teeth, gain weight continually(which is real suffering), and don't force myself to LEARN more. I feel this on the inside and out...and am really checking it out and want to get a grip.....
yes....2x daily meditation.....I see that this looked like an avenue and then shortly after starting see that I am obediant to the blockage...
I feel happiness is in the now and small joys like seeing the cardinals eat seeds and my son pass football mean more to me than I allow...he is waiting now in the dusk, for me to engage.
nothing else is satisfying. maybe other stuff is to, but I have to play.
thanks-for the invite. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 11:42:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Hi Anthem,
I think you have a great point.
But I don't think that is all there is to it.
Suffering comes in a variety of guises. And while bliss is available at all times, some suffering is very real, and cannot be avoided.
That is because one can feel bliss, even in the midst of intense suffering. Suffering does not disappear when one has attained bliss consciousness. You could say it is transformed, but it does not cease to exist.
Hi tonightsthenight,
For this conversation to progress, I think we need to all be on the same page in regards to terminology.
From my perspective, we can make a distinction between pain and suffering for the sake of clarity. If we keep it on an emotional/ psychological level for now, pain can be defined as something that happens in the moment. We can look at suffering as the pain continuing beyond the incident which caused the pain.
From my perspective suffering is the mental process of carrying pain or keeping it alive in the present by thinking about past memories or an imagined future. Without doing this, pain is over pretty quickly.
So I agree, pain at times can not be avoided, but suffering can be minimized to virtually nothing from my experience. Pain can be transcended, the greater the degree of acceptance the more quickly it dissipates from my perspective.
Bliss/ joy, our natural state is evident when the mind isn't fixated on elements of suffering. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 11:51:19 AM
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Hi Mikkiji,
Your post reminds me of one of my favourite poems by Kahlil Gibran.
“Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain. And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life, your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy; And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields. And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief.
Much of your pain is self-chosen. It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self. Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquility: For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen,
And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears.” |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 1:29:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Hi Anthem,
I think you have a great point.
But I don't think that is all there is to it.
Suffering comes in a variety of guises. And while bliss is available at all times, some suffering is very real, and cannot be avoided.
That is because one can feel bliss, even in the midst of intense suffering. Suffering does not disappear when one has attained bliss consciousness. You could say it is transformed, but it does not cease to exist.
Hi tonightsthenight,
For this conversation to progress, I think we need to all be on the same page in regards to terminology.
From my perspective, we can make a distinction between pain and suffering for the sake of clarity. If we keep it on an emotional/ psychological level for now, pain can be defined as something that happens in the moment. We can look at suffering as the pain continuing beyond the incident which caused the pain.
From my perspective suffering is the mental process of carrying pain or keeping it alive in the present by thinking about past memories or an imagined future. Without doing this, pain is over pretty quickly.
So I agree, pain at times can not be avoided, but suffering can be minimized to virtually nothing from my experience. Pain can be transcended, the greater the degree of acceptance the more quickly it dissipates from my perspective.
Bliss/ joy, our natural state is evident when the mind isn't fixated on elements of suffering.
I see your point, and again it's insightful. And I agree that there is a distinction between the two concepts.
But you should consider that pain and suffering are not so easily separated! A moment isn't always just a couple of seconds.
So pain vs. suffering cannot be determined by it's temporality.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 5:16:13 PM
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Hi Anthem
Thank you for this topic
quote:
In other words, a person who looks for all the things that he or she is getting out of a particular situation, no matter how seemingly bleak at first, will find gratitude and happiness in life. Repeat this several millions of times over countless life experiences and you will find love for all that is and perhaps "enlightenment" too depending on your definition of it.
A person who thinks about all that they are missing out on, all the things that he or she is not getting or not going to be able to do from a particular situation, will find suffering and general unhappiness. Repeat this several million times as you go through life and find depression, anger, stress, anxiety and a whole host of compounded difficulties.
To say yes to everything that life is already presenting is always enabling greater relaxation here (but not necessarily less pain as you also point out). But certainly, not resisting is absolutely less painful both in the short and the long run (albeit maybe not in the very short run :) And once relaxation is here....the alignment with consciousness as it is (and all the real aspects that come with it) is much closer.
It is also possible to say yes to all that life presents without speaking about it inside...without looking for a good reason to be happy or unhappy. To say yes in this way....is in a way also a means to a deeper end. It is paradoxical that "saying yes to everything" actually enables "letting go of everything".
In my experience there are layers of suffering.
I love your Kalil Gibran quote. It encompasses these layers. First, in waking up, I experience the pain of identification with pain and resistance. And then the delayed pain of the identification with pleasure, excitement, exhilaration, enthrallment, enchantedness and ecstacy (and whatever else of added beauty there is :)
So for me.....the deepest suffering turns out to simply be the fact of being caught in any idea of "what the world is". When quietly witnessing.....the "eye" is turned inwards and outwards at the same time.....knowingseeing the same "no-thing" everywhere....
And still - the stubborness operates. As well as the talents.
But when not caught in it.....there is peace. While all is as it always was - it is just that the perspective is so different when the "no-thing" is known to be the real world.
It makes everything real. Even the suffering is real then.
And that is the "absence of suffering" for me.
Everything knows itself everywhere - and loves itself only. All the time, all over the place.
That knowing.... and that loving...... is completely fathomless to me.
It is felt to be real - that's all.
Much love Anthem.
And thanks again for the chance to inquire.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
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Suffering = What you get v. don't get?
