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weaver
832 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 12:26:09 PM
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There has been a lot of discussion in this forum about how to do AYP deep meditation correctly, and we know that simple is better. Simply favor the mantra instead of any thoughts, impressions or stimuli that you become aware of, or if you lose the mantra, and don't add any concepts or try to control the mantra in any way.
Now, there is another element that I have found, and the question is if it can be considered an aspect of "favoring" or an undesirable "addition": When I favor the mantra, rather than just repeating it, I feel drawn to also approach the mantra more, to be closer to it, or to be more intimate with it. (This is just a sense, no analysis or thinking involved).
When I favor the mantra by "being more with it", the stillness gets deeper and more profound and has a sense of holiness or purity to it, and the mantra often gets fainter, than if I would just be repeating it.
Any input on this is most welcome. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 12:30:43 PM
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I got a possible answer just after I posted the above.
A: If you get drawn to get closer to the mantra naturally, it's correct, but if you decide willingly to approach the mantra more it's not correct. (?)
Q: However, in both cases I get the same effect of more profound stillness.
A: But the end doesn't justify the means. (?) |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 12:36:20 PM
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Weaver wrote:
quote:
When I favor the mantra, rather than just repeating it, I feel drawn to also approach the mantra more, to be closer to it, or to be more intimate with it. (This is just a sense, no analysis or thinking involved).
Yes. This is how I experience the favoring of the mantra too. Repeating it is a mind thing, being with it is what makes the mantra "fuzzy". Then the mantra is in resonance with the stillness.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 12:40:32 PM
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We posted at the same time, Weaver
quote:
A: If you get drawn to get closer to the mantra naturally, it's correct, but if you decide willingly to approach the mantra more it's not correct. (?)
You can decide willingly to let the mantra approach you. This way you are in allowence, not activity.
May all your Nows be Here
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 11 2006 4:15:04 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 1:29:09 PM
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weaver/Katrine
I've been discovering something similar in a different context.
Being a predominantly visual person (as I think a lot of people are)I would also see the written word of the mantra in my mind as I repeated it.
When listening to music I would often go into an old habit of imagining myself on the stage playing the guitar or whatever, and would get a great kick out of this as I would feel the emotion and the adulation from the crowds.
The point about this is that I was listening to and hearing the music from the outside in.
The habit I am developing now is to listen to the music and feel the music in me, be the music and know that I am also the musician that is palying or singing. I find this an incredible difference.
After a recent music encounter like this I turned off the radio and began some meditation, feeling the sound of the mantra in me and leaving out the visualisation
To me the effect of this seems to fit the same description you give weaver.
I'm not suggesting you were also seing the word of the mantra, but maybe some other hyper-visual person out there is doing just that.
Louis
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 4:07:47 PM
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If drawing closer to the mantra happens, it's ok. Trying to draw closer to the mantra (or trying to do anything else), though, is not.
Lots of stuff happens. Let it happen, like a barber cutting your hair. Opt out of the process! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 11 2006 4:12:57 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 4:15:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
You can decide willingly to let the mantra approach you. This way you are in allowence, not activity.
Strongly disagree (sorry!). Don't decide or allow anything. Just let it all happen. No intervention.
[sorry your posting is marked as edited by me. it's not. Just a software misstep] |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 4:19:01 PM
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Louis - I'm a hyper-visual person as well, and I 'see' just about everything, including the mantra. I don't do this intentionally - I can't even prevent it from happening, and so 'seeing' is as inevitable to me as breathing or blinking. In some way seeing the mantra helps me to be with it more naturally. There is a significant presence in the deep silence; some kind of energy that is profoundly still and on the verge of being seen.
I had my first experience this week of hearing the mantra repeating itself. My mind had wandered off on some winding path, and when it came back, I was surprised to see and hear that the mantra had carried on without me! 
Thanks for your post, Weaver. "Being more with the mantra" is how you have expressed it; my way of expressing would be "releasing the mantra" or "allowing the mantra to repeat itself". It IS kind of like a pleasant date, Melissa. :) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 6:51:46 PM
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Could somebody tell me, how important is it to be able to visualize in order to progress in the spiritual field? Are all of you really good a visualizing? I am so bad at it , its not even funny.. it has taken me almost a year to visualize my spinal nerve... and I still don't see it right... I can follow my breath up my back, through my head to the center of my forehead and back down.. but never through a silver thread.. So all of you who are progressing so fast in this area... are you all good visualizers and am I at a disadvantage for not being able to visualize? |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 9:01:10 PM
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Hi Shanti,
You are not at all alone in being poor at visualizing, I think most are. I have also done spinal breathing for about a year, and I can not visualize the spinal thread hardly at all, but I can trace the general path from the root to the third eye by feeling fairly well, much better than in the beginning, and I think that works for the practice. The inner seeing will come alive by itself when ecstatic conductivity opens in the nervous system, and spinal breathing is the main practice for working toward this. It will happen when enough purification has been done. |
Edited by - weaver on Mar 11 2006 10:10:19 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 10:53:13 PM
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| I agree with what the others have said - the ability to visualize is just one of many tools, and not necessarily the right one for the job. I can clearly visualize my spinal nerve, the silver thread, and just about anything else that's suggested as a metaphor, but am still in the ozone when it comes to the ecstatic experience associated with spinal breathing . . . it's just not happening yet. Don't lose heart - it happens differently for everyone, and in the way that's right for you. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 02:48:46 AM
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Jim wrote:
quote:
Don't decide or allow anything. Just let it all happen
Yes; I see your point. I should not "look out for anything". That is still activity. At first I said to myself (my mind talking, ya know  ) I still think I could use the wording "decide willingly" if the rest of the sentence ends with "to let it all happen". This is, after all, both a decision and an allowence. But then....it dawned on me that it takes someone to decide; to allow: The mind. And the point is to transcend the mind, not endorse it. So - I agree, Jim. Thanks
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 02:59:51 AM
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Shanti wrote:
quote:
it has taken me almost a year to visualize my spinal nerve... and I still don't see it right... I can follow my breath up my back, through my head to the center of my forehead and back down.. but never through a silver thread.. So all of you who are progressing so fast in this area... are you all good visualizers and am I at a disadvantage for not being able to visualize?
I feel my spinal nerve, it is one strong ecstatic column almost all the time. And wherever I place my attention on it; it responds with sensations. But I don't see any silver thread at all - at most I perceive it as....a greyish mass. But this is VERY close to not seing anything at all. So take heart, Shanti. Don't TRY to visualize anything. As Jim said: "Let it all happen". For me, ecstacy preceeded inner vision. And I feel fine about it.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 03:11:02 AM
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Sparkle wrote:
quote:
I'm not suggesting you were also seing the word of the mantra, but maybe some other hyper-visual person out there is doing just that.
I see the word. For as long as I can remember, all letters, words, sentences have colors. The days of the week, f.ex., each have their own color (this does not change).
It used to bother me that I kept seeing the mantra...it kept it on the surface. What helped me was following Yoganis suggestion here:
http://www.aypsite.org/115.html
I went from I AM to AYAM. The color of the mantra immediately changed, and the focus went from vision to sound. I can dive with the sound - it is whole.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 08:03:52 AM
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Thanks for the comments Meg and Katrine.
Katrine wrote:
But then....it dawned on me that it takes someone to decide; to allow: The mind. And the point is to transcend the mind, not endorse it. So - I agree, Jim. Thanks
On reading down the posts what comes to mind is "the witness" or "the observer".
Where is the witness in all of this?
In order to know that we are in bliss or deep silence we must be observing or witnessing this, otherwise we would not remember it, but clearly this is not the case.
In initially deciding to use the mantra it is a doing action. After a while it seems to have a life of its own within me. If I favour the vibrational sound of the mantra in me and do not favour the visual of the word, it is still "favouring" one way or the other. Once it is set up at the beginning of the meditation it continues with its own momentum and "I" am "observing" it all happening.
So it appears to me that some action of doing is necessary at the start of the meditation or during the meditation when we drift off, and then once we go deeper the meditation can take on its own life and we simply observe.
The actions of "favouring" or "allowing" seem softer and gentler than say "deciding" or "willing" and would seem to me to be good transitionary actions that allow us to slide gently into the deep.
Thats my take on it for now.
Louis
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 09:04:20 AM
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quote:
So it appears to me that some action of doing is necessary at the start of the meditation or during the meditation when we drift off
Sparkle,
Exactly. Deep meditation itself in AYP is a decisive action that we do willingly, at least as long as the mantra isn't active by itself. What Jim disagreed on was adding other features to the procedure like "decide willingly to let the mantra approach you". |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 11:54:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
In initially deciding to use the mantra it is a doing action. After a while it seems to have a life of its own within me.
So it appears to me that some action of doing is necessary at the start of the meditation or during the meditation when we drift off, and then once we go deeper the meditation can take on its own life and we simply observe.
The actions of "favouring" or "allowing" seem softer and gentler than say "deciding" or "willing" and would seem to me to be good transitionary actions that allow us to slide gently into the deep
This sums up my experience with all of the practices. There is the initial, and sometimes prolonged, stage where it feels awkward, impossible, hopeless. The clunky stage, as Yogani calls it. But with perseverance, it becomes less awkward and more settled. And then one day, ker-plunk! It simply falls into place, because you've finally let go and let it happen.
I strongly agree with Jim that we should not intervene - just let it all happen - but in the beginning that's a tall order. Like Krishnamurti instructing us to just 'enlighten up'; I'm way too complicated for that. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 5:51:08 PM
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Hi Weaver,
To respond to your first post, some days the mantra is more on the surface for me and I am very ware of the process of coming back to it. On these days the mantra seems to come more quickly and I repeat it more often throughout the meditation.
Other days I feel like I go into the mantra and float with it and that it takes me on this elongated blissful/ ecstatic trip. I then repeat it again and it spreads out slowly and it goes on like this for the duration of the meditation. It is very pleasant and it does feel very intimate and I end up going through the mantra much more slowly and fewer times over the course of the meditation.
Of course I prefer the latter situation, but I can't force it one way or another, I simply just accept the mantra for whatever it is on the given day of practice.
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Edited by - Anthem on Mar 12 2006 5:58:41 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 7:11:25 PM
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Hi Anthem,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, this is similar to how I experience my meditations. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 7:47:42 PM
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Hi shanti,
I think lot of ppl here are on the same boat as not being able to visualize the spinal nerve. It might take few years to be able to do that not just one year.
The ability to see a light at the 3rd eye is also a related thing and can take some time. Also I feel these two come after adding additional practices like mulabandha, sambhavi, yoni mudra kumbhaka etc...
Right now the goal in spinal breathing for me is restriction of air more than visualizing. First I make sure I am breathing and holding air correctly and then next step I make sure I visualize.
-Near
Genes are a result of karma RATHER THAN A CAUSE OF IT - Yogani |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 9:10:51 PM
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Hi Near,
We're kind of doing two topics here but in regards to pranayama, Yogani writes in the below referenced lesson, that in the beginning we use our imagination more to trace the spinal nerve up and down between the perineum and third eye and that eventually it evolves to feeling it and then seeing it:
http://www.aypsite.com/44.html
For me over the last 14 months, the evolution has been a lot like this. At first I remember having trouble feeling certain parts of my spine where I imagined the spinal nerve to be. Then over time this awareness increased and I could feel my whole spine as I traced it, then eventually I could feel the spinal nerve itself which I feel on the inside edge of my spinal column more towards my center.
The last place where I have developed sensation most recently is between the back of the head and the third eye which initially was less defined for me. These days the feeling of the spinal nerve now includes seeing an undefined diffused light emanating when I do pranayama. It's not overly bright but just there, kind of like a blurry column of white.
I am aware of energy in my spinal nerve most days and some days I have a nice soft feeling of ecstasy in the nerve after practices but not on days where I do too much then I can't feel it as well because the energy is outside of the nerve and more in my body.
Strange but this has been the way it has been developing for me
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 10:10:31 PM
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quote:
I strongly agree with Jim that we should not intervene - just let it all happen - but in the beginning that's a tall order. Like Krishnamurti instructing us to just 'enlighten up'; I'm way too complicated for that.
Then get more complicated. Get so complicated that you're absolutely strangled in your own complication. Then, in a pique of aggravation, chuck it all.
Or just do the practices, as I've said eslewhere, like having your hair cut.
It's a litle amusing to watch these forums. Yogani created a beautifully simple practice, which he's explained with beautiful simplicity. And everyone's here busily trying to FILL IN EVERYTHING, as if Yogani provided just an outline requiring massive decoration, explication, and detail. Like we're somehow making it better or fuller or clearer. If we get just a few more details filled in - if we just understand things or get the right concept - we'll get it just right.
No. Yogani's elegant, simple approach is all you need, and everything else is distraction. Reread his lessons on meditation (even if you've been doing this for sometime). Groove on the leanness. Let his simplicity and elegance wash over you, chilling out your inquiring niggling brain. I need to do that, too sometimes. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 13 2006 10:21:07 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 11:52:44 AM
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weaver said:
I feel drawn to also approach the mantra more, to be closer to it, or to be more intimate with it. (This is just a sense, no analysis or thinking involved).
Hello Weaver,
regarding your first question, I think you answered the question correctly yourself:
Weaver said:
A: If you get drawn to get closer to the mantra naturally, it's correct, but if you decide willingly to approach the mantra more it's not correct. (?)
The spontaneous adaptations in your approach to the mantra are fine. You should neither (i) resist the spontaneous adaptations, nor (ii) seek them again in later sessions.
I made both mistakes in my early days. For example, sometimes I spontaneously tended to bring/let the mantra come in fast. I say bring/let, because it was at the border of will and letting happen. But there wasn't thought behind it, it was spontaneous. And then I was saying to myself, 'No, this is really, really rapid mantra, like a machine-gun, this shouldn't be happening, this is wrong', and I willfully slowed it down. I was wrong to slow it down, I was wrong to say that this fast mantra was wrong. This is mistake (i).
Often when the spontaneous adaptations happen, there is an increase in depth, as you mention. Later, we can try to search for that depth again by bringing on the adaptation on purpose. That's mistake (ii). For example, in a later meditation session, after the rapid machine-gun mantra was no longer happening spontaneously, I might have thought 'Gee, I'm not as deep now as I was when I was doing rapid mantra', and then I'd try doing the mantra rapidly on purpose. Another mistake, mistake (ii).
What was happening for you is that some natural instinctual tendency to approach the mantra in an 'intimate' way occurred. This was fine. It doesn't need to be analyzed. Did it make you go deeper? Don't analyze that. Some time soon, you may find yourself spontaneously dropping this spontaneous 'intimate' approach to the mantra and you may spontaneously approach it in a more detached, matter-of-fact, rather than intimate way. Or you may not. Don't analyze it, let it happen. And if this more detached mode happens spontaneously, don't try to shift back to the 'intimate' mode again.
Spontaneity is the key. This is all fine because it is spontaneous. If it is willed or decided, it is a mistake.
Weaver said:
Q: However, in both cases (whether I will it or not) I get the same effect of more profound stillness.
A: But the end doesn't justify the means. (?)
The implicit question is, I think, 'This willful change seems to help my meditation so why shouldn't I do it willfully in general?'
The answer I would give here is not that the end doesn't justify the means but rather this: this happens to work better for you now because it is spontaneous now. Maybe a common experience would be that, under the circumstances when an adaptation is spontaneous, the very same adaptation also works when willed. But this doesn't mean that the instructions should be modified, or that you should willfully carry a new instruction. Because it wouldn't be a spontaneous thing for other people (or even for you in other or later circumstances) and would not tend to help, and the additional complexity could get in the way of your meditation.
I hope that helps,
Cheers,
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 13 2006 3:43:55 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 3:32:53 PM
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Hi David,
Thank you for your reply and analysis of the issue. Especially the last part: "Maybe often under the circumstances when an adaptation is spontaneous, the same adaptation also works when willed. But this doesn't mean that the instructions should be modified". It was very helpful. |
Edited by - weaver on Mar 13 2006 3:46:29 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 3:49:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
It's a litle amusing to watch these forums. Yogani created a beautifully simple practice, which he's explained with beautiful simplicity. And everyone's here busily trying to FILL IN EVERYTHING, as if Yogani provided just an outline requiring massive decoration, explication, and detail. Like we're somehow making it better or fuller or clearer. If we get just a few more details filled in - if we just understand things or get the right concept - we'll get it just right.
I agree, Jim - it's amusing, even endearing - like watching a baby learn to walk, or a pile of puppies learning to be dogs. You know they'll get it eventually, so you just watch and smile and wonder how could it possibly be so difficult. Another analogy: Some of us have achieved a high level of skill at our professions. It now comes so naturally that it's hard to remember how awkward it once felt. The encouragement from people like you, who've been meditating and asana-ing for 20+ years, is helpful for people like me, who have been at it for less than a year. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 4:43:35 PM
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Glad that helped, Weaver.
Some people do benefit from analysis and discussion to get them out of mistaken habits in meditation.
As if a teacher said: 'just walk around in a circle' --- and this works fine for the student for a few weeks, then the student reports, ' It was all going fine, but then my right leg started to hurt whenever I make that leap to mark the end of the circle'.
Then the student gets told, 'Don't leap to mark the end of the circle, that's not part of the practice'. Was this extra instruction necessary? "No" in theory; in practice, yes it helped. Eventually the student would probably have figured it out from just practice itself that something unnecessary was being done. Or inherent laziness and labor-minimization would have elimated the hop over time. But the little bit of help can speed up the process of letting go of that useless add-on.
The meditating mind is like that too. We may be doing useless hops and twists and turns, and we don't know we are doing them. Eventually they get dropped, sometimes quickly and consciously by having them pointed out as a result of questions, or even direct insight; and sometimes silently and unconsciously over time, as a result of practice itself.
This is one of the reasons a forum like this can be helpful for people learning to meditate. Experienced people can help to elimate the unconscious add-ons.
The 'help' that comes from people with less experience in meditation, or in teaching it, may be in the form of making extra add-ons. A more experienced teacher is eliminating the unconscious add-ons of the student.
Teaching meditation (an analogy)
Teacher says:
Just walk around in a circle, that's all.
Then later, the following 'instructions' are given in answer to the student's questions:
No, why would you hop to mark the end of the circle?
No, who told you you had to do that power-walk thing with your arms?
No, I didn't say you couldn't power-walk with you arms.
No, it does not have to be a totally perfect circle. It I wanted that I would have told you.
No, you don't have to go fast. I didn't say that.
No, you don't have to go slow. I didn't say that.
No, I did not say that you couldn't walk sexily.
No, don't worry, I did not say that your walk has to be sexy.
No, if I wanted you to walk like a soldier, I would have told you to walk like a soldier.
No, I did not say not to walk like a soldier. If I wanted you not to walk like a soldier, I would have told you not to walk like a soldier.
No, I didn't say to walk in a relaxed way. What makes you think I said that? I said 'I did not tell you to walk like a soldier'. That doesn't mean that I told you to walk in a relaxed way.
No, if I required you to be chewing chewing-gum, I would have told you to be chewing chewing-gum.
No, I didn't say anything about chewing-gum. If I required you not to be chewing chewing-gum, I would have told you not to be chewing chewing-gum.
No, you are to walk around in a circle, not to walk towards the store to buy chewing-gum!
No, I'm telling you, I still didn't tell you not to be chewing chewing-gum while you are walking. I told you to walk around in a circle. And if you are walking around in a circle, you won't be walking to the store to buy chewing-gum, will you? And that doesn't mean not to chew chewing-gum while you are walking, does it?
No, again, I did not tell you that you must chew chewing-gum while you are walking.
No, I did not give you any special instructions about chewing-gum. I told you to walk around in a circle, that's all. If you do what I said, you won't be walking towards the store to buy chewing-gum. That is not a special instruction about chewing-gum, it's an instruction to walk around in a circle, not to the store, for anything, chewing-gum or otherwise. You don't have to remember anything about chewing-gum. Trust me on this. I know it's hard -- chewing-gum seems to be a sticky issue for you. So you can forget about the chewing gum. No, don't worry, 'forgetting about the chewing gum' is not a required part of the practice. I don't care if you can't forget about the chewing-gum. I didn't say that you had to forget about the chewing-gum for the meditation to work. I said you had to walk around in a circle, that's all. Could it be simpler?
No, I did not give you fifty instructions that you have to remember. I only gave you one instruction that you have to remember. That instruction is 'Walk around in a circle'. The other ones aren't instructions. I was just telling you what I did not instruct you to do!!
That's what teaching meditation is like!
I've been on the 'student' side and on the teacher side of that kind of dialog. And sometimes I didn't have a teacher who could point it out to me and and I had to figure out myself how I was getting in my own way.
Eventually the student gets it either way, provided that the essential ingredient of actually doing the practice is maintained!
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
quote:
I strongly agree with Jim that we should not intervene - just let it all happen - but in the beginning that's a tall order. Like Krishnamurti instructing us to just 'enlighten up'; I'm way too complicated for that.
Then get more complicated. Get so complicated that you're absolutely strangled in your own complication. Then, in a pique of aggravation, chuck it all.
Or just do the practices, as I've said eslewhere, like having your hair cut.
It's a litle amusing to watch these forums. Yogani created a beautifully simple practice, which he's explained with beautiful simplicity. And everyone's here busily trying to FILL IN EVERYTHING, as if Yogani provided just an outline requiring massive decoration, explication, and detail. Like we're somehow making it better or fuller or clearer. If we get just a few more details filled in - if we just understand things or get the right concept - we'll get it just right.
No. Yogani's elegant, simple approach is all you need, and everything else is distraction. Reread his lessons on meditation (even if you've been doing this for sometime). Groove on the leanness. Let his simplicity and elegance wash over you, chilling out your inquiring niggling brain. I need to do that, too sometimes.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 15 2006 11:28:22 AM |
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Getting closer to the mantra
