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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 7:08:44 PM
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I agree with you David.. this forum is a wonderful place where we can share our experiences and ask for help if we need it. And yes.. Yogani has made this whole process so simple.. but he never said that "you have to follow my way or else.." or "you have to read only what I write"... He has always said "try it out for yourself and see if it works." That is what makes this place so unique. If in the process of trying something else it gets complicated, you will learn and come back to the simple and appreciate it even more. One year back if you had told me this system works, I would have had my doubts.. people meditate for hours and days.. you tell me to meditate for 20 min and expect me to get the same results.. you have to be out of your mind.. Thanks to time constraints, that 20 min was all I could put in then.. and it worked, I think it worked better than anything else I had tried earlier.
I think everybody will learn in their own way, and I am sure will be back to the "simple" sooner or later.... However I have to say it helps having the "Jim Patrol" around to make sure people don't stray too much ...
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 09:33:21 AM
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Oh yes, everything I didn't say about chewing-gum, I also didn't say about chocolate!  |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 3:21:14 PM
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I thought we were doing a very good job at walking around in circles David  |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 6:54:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
I agree, Jim - it's amusing, even endearing - like watching a baby learn to walk, or a pile of puppies learning to be dogs. You know they'll get it eventually, so you just watch and smile and wonder how could it possibly be so difficult. Another analogy: Some of us have achieved a high level of skill at our professions. It now comes so naturally that it's hard to remember how awkward it once felt. The encouragement from people like you, who've been meditating and asana-ing for 20+ years, is helpful for people like me, who have been at it for less than a year.
Look, I'm not talking from any sort of high level. I don't perceive there to BE a high level---just varying degrees of being totally-screwed-up-and-clouded. I don't think there's a ladder to climb or a skill to acquire or anything to get good at. I think that attitude is a trap. My point is: this work is like brushing your teeth. Everything more than brushing teeth is just mind games. And the mind oughtn't be involved. Just brush. Whether you're new or old to these practices.
Yogani is the one who taught me that. His writings brim with that simplicity. That's the central beauty. That's the most conducive attitude. Unlike our careers, etc, this isn't a realm where adding on knowledge and facts is the goal. The goal is to DROP stuff. Yoga is SUBTRACTIVE!
See also http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=851 |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 10:19:55 AM
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What I am trying to bring out is that we should see the 'complications' that people bring to the meditation practice as being part of the process for them. And helping to eliminate and smooth away the complications is part of the teaching process.
Just like with emotions that come up; the meditation will tend to 'throw up issues' according to the energies of the meditator.
We don't want to create a culture where we go 'Tsk, Tsk, would you look at that' at people who spontaneously tend to analyze their meditation and then seek to discuss it -- any more than we want to go 'Tsk tsk' at people who, say, have experiences of strong emotions or arousal during their meditation, and seek to discuss that. Now, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone for going 'tsk, tsk' here. No-one would say it has gone that far. This is just a gentle, friendly reminder about possible appearances, or a direction we don't want to go in.
Analysis of meditation is, for some people inevitable, and, in a qualified way, 'good'; not that it is to be recommended, but that its occurrence can be part of the appropriate process that they go through.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 15 2006 11:28:37 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 11:49:07 AM
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David, can I email you to get a few more details on the fine points?  |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 11:59:36 AM
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Jim wrote: And the mind oughtn't be involved.
I agree with you again. But it is, and therefore should be embraced, along with everything else. Without the mind, we never would have seen the windshield to begin with, or the caked-on mud. In the beginning, meditation is a process of wearing out old behavioral patterns, which for some is a long and arduous process. It's ALL part of the process. "Varying degrees of being screwed up and clouded" implies some kind of ladder, perhaps a horizontal one, so that one's position on that ladder is irrelevant. Let's face it - if you've been doing this for decades, you're going to be "better" at it than someone who's just starting out. And whatever it is that someone brings to their practice - mind, mud, more mud - is exactly the right thing.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 12:09:17 PM
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David, I'm not suggesting we pack up the forum and forget about discussing things, analyzing things, or swapping intellectual tidbits.
I'm just offering perspective and balance. We all (me especially) tend to forget that this is a simple, non-intellectual practice, and that, in the end, getting bogged down in detail and intellectualization is harmful. It's super important for everyone reading along to know s/he needn't understand a word being written in these forums, or learn any particular facts or really DO anything but sit down and say "I Am" over and over and over. We're not filling in YOgani's painting with essential details. Unlike learning to play bridge or climb mountains or play violin or design web sites, this isn't about accruing knowledge and skills to progress to the top of a ladder. This is a lot more like brushing your teeth twice per day. And we have all the instruction we need, courtesy of AYP.
It bears repeating, and I intend to repeat it from time to time. Not to halt discussion, but to lend perspective. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 15 2006 12:12:01 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 12:10:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg And whatever it is that someone brings to their practice - mind, mud, more mud - is exactly the right thing.
The practice is about dropping every single darned thing you bring to the practice. Even drop the dropper. It must all be surrendered. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 15 2006 12:12:32 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 12:55:35 PM
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Jim, oh dear, I went carefully through your post and I have to say I agree with everything you just said.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 4:23:25 PM
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Maybe I should just DROP the subject. But this is helping, so I selfishly persist, giving you-all an opportunity to practice long-suffering and kindness. I was instructed for many years to "lose the ego". Sure, right; I'll just misplace it somewhere, along with my 700 pound gorilla friend here. It wasn't helpful to hear over and over that I should just lose it; it made me feel like a loser. Where do I hide such a beast? What I came to, in my own time, was that the ego wasn't going anywhere, but had to be put in its proper place in relation to the Self. It happened on its own and it's still there, but is kept in check by an attitude of devotion (read: subservience) to God. (The energy behind the ego actually changes into bhakti, but that's another post).
Is this possibly a similar situation with Mind? I don't think of it as something to DROP, because how can I drop such a thing? Instead I "think" of it as something to be got around, quite literally. I'll be scolded for it, but I have had spontaneous visions during meditation of my thoughts being a wall that is preventing me from going deeper. There's no way that I can penetrate the wall of mind, and so I need to leave it be, and in so doing, get on the other side of it (around it). And I have done, from time to time.
What do you THINK? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 5:48:32 PM
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The thing trying to lose the ego is....the ego. The thing trying to get all these ducks in a row is....the ego. The thing asking these questions is the ego. The thing offering and soliciting advice is the ego. The thing trying to make progress is the ego. The information you seek will feed the ego. The "better" you get at yoga, and the more you "advance", the more strengthened will be the ego.
What's not the ego is the impulse drawing you. And the magnification of this impulse that comes from meditation.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 15 2006 5:49:28 PM |
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frank
Netherlands
4 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 5:59:05 PM
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Meg,
This is what I came up with because of your good question.
Divide your wall in bricks; 1 mental capability of understanding or imagine
2 capability of reasoning or intellect
3 ego
4 memories
if the wall is there again, recognize the bricks, it will give you discrimination and there fore control.
I was struggling myself to find a way to understand the relation between Manas (1), Buddhi (2), Ahamkara (3) and Citta (4) . It is called together Antahkarana.
What I came up with will work for me, so thanks for your good question.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 8:38:57 PM
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Jim wrote: "What's not the ego is the impulse drawing you. And the magnification of this impulse that comes from meditation."
Wow - very good. Thanks for that - I feel it to be true.
I appreciate your responses. Frank - if I tried to divide my wall/mind into bricks as you've suggested, I think the thought process behind it would defeat my purpose. Or maybe you need to clarify for me.
The ego doesn't just evaporate; it is transformed. I know this. And it doesn't transform itself; it is transformed by the Self. The terrific energy behind it is put to a better, higher use. The energy behind the transformation is THAT which we are all seeking; which we all ARE. Likewise, the mind is a . . . what . . . energy? trap? . . . which keeps us ego-bound and separate from our true nature. Is it reasonable to try to use the mind to drop the mind? Or to lose the ego through an ego maneuver? I don't think so. At some point there needs to be an act of grace; a surrender of mind/ego which generally is precipitated by a coming-to-the-end-of. I come to the end of my ego; it is spent, and then there is surrender, and then there is grace.
My point? I forget.  Oh - that the losing, the dropping, the EFFORT is not what brings us closer to our true selves. It's what happens after the effort - namely, the surrender. And then grace.
This subject has veered from Weaver's original post - I'll let someone else split it if necessary. I do appreciate any responses, as this subject is very dear to me at the moment. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 10:08:50 PM
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quote:
Is it reasonable to try to use the mind to drop the mind? Or to lose the ego through an ego maneuver? I don't think so. At some point there needs to be an act of grace; a surrender of mind/ego which generally is precipitated by a coming-to-the-end-of. I come to the end of my ego; it is spent, and then there is surrender, and then there is grace.
My point? I forget. Oh - that the losing, the dropping, the EFFORT is not what brings us closer to our true selves. It's what happens after the effort - namely, the surrender. And then grace.
Hi Meg,
This is an interesting topic.
To me thoughts are energy and ego is our identification with these thoughts. I'm a good worker/ lover/ role-model etc. therefore I am somebody. Awareness helps us transcend the ego and our identification with thoughts as we become conscious of them not being our true Self. We witness our ego and these thoughts in action and realize that a lot of them just do not add up. For example, I'm afraid to fail here because I think if I fail I am somehow less. The realization that we are immutable, infinite, being helps us let go of our self fabricated thought constructions that we use to define ourselves.
In myself I have noticed that if I bring my awareness to witness my emotional reactions, thoughts and ego and to be with these even if I perceive them to be "good" or "bad" it helps to create a distance. It enables me to recognize them for what they are and in the cases where they just don't add up they seemingly dissolve or fall away.
Reading both Eckhart Tolle and Sailor Bob Adamson (Jim's recommendation) really helped me with this.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 10:49:43 AM
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Well Anthem, second time today I have something in common with you... What you say about the ego... are my thoughts exact.
quote:
In myself I have noticed that if I bring my awareness to witness my emotional reactions, thoughts and ego and to be with these even if I perceive them to be "good" or "bad" it helps to create a distance. It enables me to recognize them for what they are and in the cases where they just don't add up they seemingly dissolve or fall away
OK.. now how did you learn to do this. This is exactly what I want to learn to do... not get all bent out of shape by entangling myself unnecessarily into the drama of life.. What books of Eckhart Tolle and Sailor Bob Adamson did you read ? Any book in particular you'd recommend. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 11:20:33 AM
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Anthem said- Awareness helps us transcend the ego and our identification with thoughts as we become conscious of them not being our true Self.
I see this. Until a certain level of awareness has manifested, the ego and mind are woven together and seemingly inseparable. They feed each other and may well be considered a single entity. But at some point, as consciousness rises, the mind becomes aware that the ego is NOT the true Self; that it is in fact acting in defiance of the Self. This tells me that the mind and ego are not one in the same, since the mind sees the separation and acts upon it. In my case, the mind actually had to trick my ego into submission.
So the mind has the capacity to undermine the ego, but what's to be done about the mind? The ego is of no use here. That's where meditation and mantra come in. Drop all striving and sniv'ling and questioning; just do the AYP practices twice daily, and allow the mantra pull you inward, past mind. From where I stand, to get from here to there is a miracle waiting to happen. I believe that it will, but not before I've come to the end of something. I think I'm getting very close. This seems to be what is necessary for some people - we need to exhaust all other (ego-based) possibilities before we can drop, surrender . . . grace.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 11:35:11 AM
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Hmmmm.... interesting.. I am glad you are getting closer to..
quote:
From where I stand, to get from here to there is a miracle waiting to happen. I believe that it will, but not before I've come to the end of something. I think I'm getting very close.
My mind and ego are still all happily tied up together. So when someone tells me give up the ego.. let the mind go.. surrender.. I am like HUH??? How do you do that? I am sure AYP is helping. That is why I am so drawn to it. I am not expecting miracles... it will happen when it will happen. I guess this is something you cannot hurry up, it will take its time.. |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 16 2006 11:40:44 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 11:48:38 AM
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quote:
[
My mind and ego are still all happily tied up together. So when someone tells me give up the ego.. let the mind go.. surrender.. I am like HUH??? How do you do that?
By sitting on the floor and saying "I am" over and over again and not asking a ton of questions and not trying to "fill in" all the information and details you falsely fear to be missing (from Yogani's writing and from your life).
You're using your mind to try to find a way to use your mind to bypass your mind. It's a useless loop, which is why you are understandably confused (though some people luck into insight from such a position...we're all wired differently). Just drop it and do AYP. It's enough. It'll all come together.....so long as you stop trying to puzzle it all out (which will be a huge hindrance, not a help). |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 11:53:32 AM
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Yep...
quote:
You're using your mind to try to find a way to use your mind to bypass your mind.
That is exactly what I think I am doing.. Good analysis Jim. Thanks |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 12:49:59 PM
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Glad that helped. Hey, I think I can express it better this way:
If you pick up a dab of inspiration from some of the chitchat and advice in this forum, great. But if anything you read here (or anywhere else) re: the spiritual path confuses you, just move on. Shrug, relax, and practice AYP. Yogani's writing is just about complete. It's all you need. In fact, nothing you read in a forum like this is critical. It's just little pointers and breadcrumbs which may help some but won't help all.
If you read something here that doesn't speak to you, it's just not at ALL worth spending time on it - that would make about as much sense as belaboring over a joke you didn't get. Not everyone laughs at the same thing, and not everyone derives inspiration from the same pointers. But everyone WILL benefit from actual practices.
And, frankly? Inspiration isn't worth all that much. You're here....which means you have all the bhakti you need to walk this path. We all need to just keep walking it, and not get overly bound up in intellectualization and detail. There's nothing wrong with chatting about stuff and comparing notes. Just like there's nothing wrong with watching TV. But it'd be a mistake to think you have to understand everything you read here or know what everyone knows here or otherwise try to fill in lots and lots of details in Yogani's spare framework. All you have to do is sit on the floor and say "I am" a lot. It IS spare, and it's best done spare. |
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frank
Netherlands
4 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 3:07:23 PM
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Meg,
process behind it would defeat my purpose. Or maybe you need to clarify for me.
If I bring my awareness to witness (anthem11) there is less atachment.
By "looking" at my thoughts I am not drown by them. That’s what I mean by looking at your wall.
And then when I already am looking, it is a small effort to be aware of the quality of this thought;
frank
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 4:59:46 PM
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Hi Shanti,
I believe never missing the twice daily AYP sessions and reading all of Yogani's books in addition to reading works by Tolle and Adamson really helped that process of witnessing along tremendously for me.
If you haven't read all of Yogani's lessons and Deep Meditation book I would start there. I also found "The Power of Now" and "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle, and "What's Wrong With Right Now, unless you think about it" by Sailor Bob Adamson in that order were extremely helpful too. They can be ordered from Amazon.
Pretty powerful and life changing stuff .
Anthem
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 5:14:10 PM
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| Frank - I re-read your first post and I think I may understand it better now. Thank you. :) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 7:27:14 PM
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Thanks Anthem. I could not start my day without doing my practice... I have missed it just once during the year I have been practicing..on Christmas morning.. the kids were too excited and could not wait.. the evening ones are not as regular as I would like them to be.. I have read all the books Yogani has out already.. haven't finished with the Advanced Yoga Practice book yet.. taking that one slow.. I get tempted to try stuff I am not ready for... I have got yelled at by a couple of forumites(if that is a word) for that ... waiting for the rest that are to come this year..(if I ever let him finish the books that is). I will get the "The Power of Now" and "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle, and "What's Wrong With Right Now, unless you think about it" by Sailor Bob Adamson. I hope they are not very heavy reading stuff. I don't do too well with them. I can handle Yogani's style of writing any day. A little bit harder than that is fine, but if it is too complicated, please let me know. Thanks...
-Shanti |
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Getting closer to the mantra
