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bewell
1275 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 10:56:19 AM
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Saaragam, a forum participant, passed on a practice that he thought might fit with AYP. I tried it and found it immediately resonant. Perhaps others will find it resonant too.
"...from the old tantra tradition of Hevajra. Not too many people have this knowledge so here it is. It is a nonduality tantra...
It's called the Four Moments.
...you are in sexual embrace... or your pranayama practice is tickling the hell out of your kunda. You are feeling super orgasmic or blissful in absorption... This is the first moment, the moment of contact.
The second moment is where in your heart (not your heart chakra, but deeply) you long for direct experience of the Self, and hand the bliss feeling over to it. Examine the feeling is like space, has no color or shape and arises as in dependence on method.
Third moment is when your bliss feeling melts into nothingness and thus melts into a passionlessness, which is the Self.
The fourth moment is within the third moment, the experience of the innate. Without conceptualizing anything just be in that indescribable innate state..."
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 11:10:05 AM
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In my experience, the question "who am I" may be released into the silence during such particular times of movement into the depths of "pure bliss consciousness."
Doing this practice of the Four Movements helped me to appreciate the "moving target" aspect of Self-inquiry practice as Yogani discusses it in lesson 349.
Yogani writes: "Self-inquiry is a practice that is entirely dependent on the degree of abiding inner silence (witness) we have available at any point in time....Self-inquiry, and it’s very nature at any point in time, is a continuum that weaves it way through the five stages of mind discussed in Lesson 327, from pre-witnessing, to witnessing, to discrimination, to dispassion, to unity. It is this "moving target" aspect of self-inquiry that makes it difficult to prescribe a particular style of practice that can be applied with equal effectiveness at all times." |
Edited by - bewell on Dec 14 2010 11:27:29 AM |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 3:40:53 PM
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quote:
1.
Pre-Witnessing – Information and intellectual assessments about truth provide inspiration, and a tendency to build mental castles in the air, ideas reacting with ideas, which is non-relational self-inquiry. So we do what is necessary to cultivate the witness.
2.
Witnessing – Perceiving the world, our thoughts and feelings as objects separate from Self. It is the beginning of relational self-inquiry, chosen or not.
3.
Discrimination – The reversal of identification by logical choices based on direct perception rooted in stillness. This is more advanced relational self-inquiry which is able to discern the real from the unreal.
4.
Dispassion – Rise of the condition of no judgment and no attachment. The process of self-inquiry becoming automatic to the point of all objects and self-inquiry itself being constantly dissolved in the witness.
5.
Unity – The merging of subject and object: "I am That. You are That. All this is That." Ongoing outpouring divine love and service to others as universal Self.
A clue: These are all of this world and correspond to the nature of the five elements (four elements plus space). The Fourth Moment is not in the five elements. It does not arise in dependence on method, etc, but in the method, one penetrates this Innate Ananda that is not passion or dispassion or unity or nonduality. |
Edited by - Saagaram on Dec 14 2010 3:55:12 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2010 : 8:54:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
quote:
1.
Pre-Witnessing – Information and intellectual assessments about truth provide inspiration, and a tendency to build mental castles in the air, ideas reacting with ideas, which is non-relational self-inquiry. So we do what is necessary to cultivate the witness.
2.
Witnessing – Perceiving the world, our thoughts and feelings as objects separate from Self. It is the beginning of relational self-inquiry, chosen or not.
3.
Discrimination – The reversal of identification by logical choices based on direct perception rooted in stillness. This is more advanced relational self-inquiry which is able to discern the real from the unreal.
4.
Dispassion – Rise of the condition of no judgment and no attachment. The process of self-inquiry becoming automatic to the point of all objects and self-inquiry itself being constantly dissolved in the witness.
5.
Unity – The merging of subject and object: "I am That. You are That. All this is That." Ongoing outpouring divine love and service to others as universal Self.
A clue: These are all of this world and correspond to the nature of the five elements (four elements plus space). The Fourth Moment is not in the five elements. It does not arise in dependence on method, etc, but in the method, one penetrates this Innate Ananda that is not passion or dispassion or unity or nonduality.
We just held a retreat last weekend, with these five stages as the theme. This model (above) is not missing anything; it's just a different articulation, is all. Subject and object dissolve, and then arise anew, non-separate; whole - this is the final stage; this is liberation. Anything "beyond" precedes it, and is part of it (wholeness) as described below.
What you call the fourth moment seems analogous to the Turiya (literally "the fourth") state, beyond waking, dreaming and deep sleep; the original unidentified awareness in which these other states arise, display and dissolve.
That's why you say that the fourth moment as you call it appears within the third moment ... the third moment is the experience of the innate; the fourth moment is the experiencer of the innate.
There is a fifth "moment", too, called Turiyatita ("beyond the fourth") in Sanskrit - which is wholeness; awareness and all its content, living unbound as original division-free reality.
Spiritual maps and models don't use identical language; it doesn't mean there's anything missing from any particular model.
If I felt there was some aspect of the fullness of being that AYP is somehow missing, or that those of us who've reaped its benefits are missing, I'd be interested, and open to knowing it.
However, there's nothing missing in the AYP model, or the experiences/living of those of us who've been at this a while -- hence my ability to say this, truthfully.
One of the key benefits of realizing wholeness is the realization that reality is wholeness -- beyond any shadow of a doubt, and beyond anything else, yet utterly non-separate as well.
There are five basic stages to reality, which correspond with Yogani's five stages of mind:
Physical Form - manifestation; "the result".
Mental Form - Where the specifics of manifestation are formed.
Consciousness - Where the building-blocks of potential (and, in liberation, pure potential itself) rest as latent consciousness.
Awareness - the ground of being, in which all else arises; the pure light itself.
Wholeness - the non-separation of the other four; living, unbound.
... and while that's loosely analogous to models in other systems, including my own, it's also "off the top of my head", so to speak ... because, experiencing it, it's easy enough to note, and describe.
Much like swimming, or sex, or any other full-immersion kind of activity, some things can only be understood by living them; mental understanding alone gives a very partial picture at best.
Especially where wholeness is concerned ... partial pictures are sorely lacking.
Your post seems to intimate that we're missing "wholeness"; we're not.
Wholeness is reality, without any artificial divisions mistaken for reality.
And your overall map may articulate wholeness just fine; I'm just pointing out that AYP's does, too.
You may be able to convey your views more clearly by sticking to them, rather than pointing to perceived lack in the AYP system.
It's possible that there may be some ... but spiritual systems in general, I'm fairly familiar with -- and if there is any lack in the AYP map/model of consciousness-being, it's very, very minor; so much so, that I don't know what it would be.
I'm not trying to say AYP is flawless; I have no interest at all in doing that; it's just that, on a few occasions now, you've pointed out things that you feel are lacking in the AYP model (primarily with respect to what you feel is our lack of complete understanding of the full range of consciousness-being) which, once clarified, are shown to be equivalent to the teachings of the Buddhist systems you're promoting.
And so, I might suggest moving forward with the safe presumption the the models, and therefore the experience and awareness of consciousness, are complete in AYP as well as in other systems, specifically the Buddhist systems you favor.
That way, you don't waste anytime by pointing out areas of error in AYP you feel that you see, but which actually don't exist.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2010 : 10:22:23 PM
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| Okay hang on. I'm just giving a clue, a conundrum. I'm not criticizing AYP's map. The Four Moments are not stages of realization so much as they are a method that one does at the moment of an experience like bliss or any thought an so on. Let's forget the whole what corresponds to what; I'm convinced this is a big nowhere. In my tradition, it is very important for confusion to dawn as wisdom. Conundrums are very helpful. Thinking I figured this out is being lost. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2010 : 10:41:47 PM
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| I have a new name for Four Moments: The Hallway with Three Doors. |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2010 : 06:41:46 AM
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Hi everybody,
A small mystery (pun intended :-) -resolving prob.
I wonder what HT means by finding the sukha nerve (or spot) in the Lotus (lotus = yoni). A physical spot (G, P, Cervix), or a key state of mind, sukha (more symbolic, then), or both ?
Thanx!
Hatha |
Edited by - HathaTeacher on Dec 17 2010 07:14:08 AM |
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"Four Moments" (Hevajra tantra)
