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AlanCrawfordUK
United Kingdom
24 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 13 2010 : 5:46:17 PM
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I have come across a number of overlapping discussions about Buddhism and Buddhist practice, so sorry if this seems repetitive, however I don't feel any of the previous discussions directly address how to integrate Buddhist practice with AYP. So please forgive me some repetition for the sake of clarity!
My question is, coming from the position of wanting to practice the core AYP practices: Spinal Breathing (10 minutes), Deep Meditation (20 minutes), Samyama (5 minutes) and Rest (10 minutes), how might I incorporate Buddhist meditation practices such as Anapanasati (Mindfulness of Breathing), Metta Bhavana ( Cultivating Loving Kindness) and Contemplative Meditation (contemplating impermanence, emptiness etc).
As part of my overall practice, I would like to end meditation by making a heartfelt determination to bring the peace / stillness from meditation in to every day life so that it influences every thought, word and action. I would also like to dedicate the positive energy accumulated during meditation to my own peace and happiness and the peace and happiness of others.
I'm aware of the risk of overload / doubling up on meditation and welcome any constructive feedback on how I might incorporate some of these Buddhist practices in to my spiritual practice (just to complicate matters further, I am a Reiki practitioner, and my reiki practice requires me to do a short self-treatment every day, which I do before bed, as advised by some helpful people in another thread).
Thanks in advance for any wisdom / experience you can share!
Wishing you peace and happiness,
Alan |
Edited by - AlanCrawfordUK on Dec 13 2010 5:48:24 PM |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2010 : 6:30:50 PM
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Hi :)
It's good to build up the practice routine step by step. Which practices do you do now? In AYP we say that it's better to be digging for water in one place, than shallowly in many places at once.
From the point of view of AYP practices: metta would be simmilar to samyama. Mindfulness of breathing - we use mantra meditation instead, breath is used in case of oversenstitive practitioners. Contemplative meditation - simmilar to self-inquiry which in AYP we don't do at a predetermined time, but throughout the day, as it comes naturally. You're of course free to do it at a specific time, but it could be doubling up on samyama, as advanced self-inquiry is basically samyama. A practice that is used in this respect in AYP is also cosmis samyama, which is close to contemplating impermanence/emptiness as you say.
So whatever practices you settle on, add them one by one, watch for overload (self-pace), and keep to the practices you've chosen for long enough to be able to see the effects. Engage in life and, enjoy ;) |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2010 : 8:54:14 PM
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Hi Alan,
I would go out on a limb and say that AYP is not especially suited to Theravada, because AYP is a tantric tradition kind of practice. AYP does include breath yoga, but that is as far as it goes.
In a tantric practice context, unlike in Buddhist hiniyana and mahayana practice, extending loving-kindness and compassion is automatic result of practice. Whereas, in Buddhist mainstream practice, one "cultivates" these things with prayers and conscious thought.
Where you will find AYP practice can be taken to new levels of greatness is with how it can relate to Buddhist insights into impermanence, suffering and not-self. You should understand that all three of these notions are one notion of ignorance of emptiness, at least that's how tantric buddhists look at it.
The way AYP presents emptiness is unconditioned awareness, or when one looks into awareness one only sees a voidness. This in Buddhist tantric parlance is called the experience of non-distinction. It is not the realization of emptiness. Non-distinction, along with bliss and clarity are the three ingredients to a realization of emptiness. Bliss you understand is the sexual introversion energy, and clarity is your awareness bright and shiny like the sunlight.
Emptiness is just a word in Buddhism, what it refers to is hard to fathom intellectually. On an outer level it is related to the twelve links of interdependent origination, that is, the origination of birth, death and suffering. On an inner level it is the realization that everything is mind, stemming from the Buddha's statement, "from the arising of this, that arises...," meaning, the mind, like space, can manifest anything whatsoever without limitation so longs as the right causes and conditions appear. Then, on a secret level, emptiness is that the nature of mind is void; here, we are referring to the witness. Finally, on an ultimate level the voidness is non-arising, yet, it never ceases to be, and allows all possibilities to appear without fail. Once you have this realization, then there is nothing to practice and all manifestations of thoughts and outer phenomena arise as the buddha's body.
How AYP is more like the tantric buddhism relates to its use of the channels to generate an introversion of the ejaculation. The result of this is an intense bliss of body and profound quiet of mind. This practice is known in highest yoga tantra as the ultimate fast track to buddhahood in one life, by that we mean siddhis and omniscience.
If you want to have a Buddhist enlightnment, you can follow AYP all the way up to its use of Ramana's "Who am I?" self-inquiry of Advaita Vedanta practice. Up to this point, AYP and completion stage practice in Tantric Buddhism is almost the same. In Buddhist tantra, you stay with the bliss and the inquiry is with the four moments.
In simple terms the four moments are, the past moment is nowhere, the future moment is nowhere, the present moment is nowhere, and the fourth moment is your recognition of this within the feeling of bliss-silence. At this fourth moment, you come to recognize that everything has this same flavor; you gain an equanimity toward all phenomena including your body, and you are in nirvana. When you leave meditation, you additionally have the feeling that there is nothing to do, every thought, appearance and person or thing you meet is wisdom manifest where your compassion and love are inseparable from everything you meet. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2010 : 10:13:28 PM
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Hello Alan 
Sorry, I don't have anything to offer regarding combining AYP with Buddhist practice. However, there is something you said I'd like to respond to:
quote:
Originally posted by AlanCrawfordUK
As part of my overall practice, I would like to end meditation by making a heartfelt determination to bring the peace / stillness from meditation in to every day life so that it influences every thought, word and action. I would also like to dedicate the positive energy accumulated during meditation to my own peace and happiness and the peace and happiness of others.
In my experience, Samyama has this effect. After a while, the qualities cultivated in Samyama (love, peace, etc.) flow into your everyday life and all your actions. It becomes a way of living at some point. It also cultivates loving kindness, in a literal sense, although I am ignorant of how it compares to Metta Bhavana (not knowing what the practice entails).
There is definitely overlap, and I think it's just a matter of seeing how each practice (both AYP and Buddhist) affect you, then fine tuning your practice from there.
I wish you success in your endeavor. I know there are many people here who will benefit from your findings.
Love
cosmic |
Edited by - cosmic on Dec 13 2010 10:17:41 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2010 : 10:16:59 PM
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Hi Saagram & All,
Saagaram, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of AYP in relation to Buddhist paths.
You may know the Buddhist systems you mention well enough to comment, but I would guess it's fair to say that you don't understand AYP fully enough to compare it to the Buddhist systems you may understand more thoroughly.
Here are the specific issues I see:
1. Degrees of Enlightenment
You make it sound as though a greater or higher enlightenment is available via Buddhism than via AYP; this is inaccurate. The term enlightenment is used in various ways, but the most common definition of enlightenment is synonymous with liberation -- the highest attainable state by any practitioner, and ultimately, the only real one.
Liberation is equally available via any effective spiritual path, or combination of practices and techniques, including inquiry.
2. Awareness
You wrote:
quote:
The way AYP presents emptiness is unconditioned awareness, or when one looks into awareness one only sees a voidness
Do you have a reference to the AYP Lesson which contains this statement?
As I understand AYP's teachings on awareness, in combination with my own experience, I can say that unconditioned awareness and voidness are not at all equivalent.
Unconditioned awareness is simply another term for the pure subjectivity that is our original/true nature, behind and before all objects appearing to it and within it -- noting that objects are not separate from awareness, but rather, aspects of it.
quote:
on an ultimate level the voidness is non-arising, yet, it never ceases to be, and allows all possibilities to appear without fail. Once you have this realization, then there is nothing to practice and all manifestations of thoughts and outer phenomena arise as the buddha's body.
Please see above.
I wrote the segment above your quote based on actual experiencing.
It seems to fit with your quoted words above, yes?
Therefore, I'd say the differences you've been seeing between AYP and the Buddhist systems you seem to favor may not be as great as you've been thinking -- or even necessarily exist at all.
3. Tantra
When you refer to AYP as "tantric", it is in the general sense of the term - meaning: using the forms of life, all forms, as means to liberation, rather than means to further bondage .. and so, in that sense, to say that AYP is a tantric path in the broadest sense of the term is accurate enough.
When you imply that AYP has a major focus on ejaculatory retention, this isn't correct. Many AYP practitioners, male and female, don't practice sexual tantra at all.
I hope these clarifications are useful for anyone reading.
Question for Alan:
What would be the purpose of adding in the Buddhist practices? Your answer might help me construct some useful input (hopefully). Currently, all I can really provide as an answer is the standard AYP "party line" ... adding practices might result in overload and/or dilution of effects ... not being familiar with those other practices, I can't really say.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 13 2010 10:19:54 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 02:05:11 AM
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Shakyamuni was a yogi.
He entered into the jhanas and accessed the divya cakkhu, which I believe is the same thing as a vision screen.
I believe the jhanas are a trance state. The vision screen is something that is described by Robert Bruce in Astral Dynamics Revised Edition.
I also experienced the vision screen briefly, so I know it exists. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 14 2010 02:35:12 AM |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 02:23:53 AM
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Dear Kirtanman,
http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
http://www.aypsite.org/157.html
In Yogani's new book, he says that the mind can't see mind itself, and that inner silence is the Self. In one of these articles on this site, he talks about it being unconditioned awareness and in another nothingness that's aware. This is 99% right.
In the practice of vajrayana mind does see mind itself, and it sees by not seeing, experiences by not experiencing and so forth. It sees not seeing. It fully recognizes the nature of mind's voidness and thereby recognizes the voidness of everything else, which, believe me is not nihilistic. Maybe to a philosopher, but as a direct experience it is orgasmic.
When I say introversion of ejaculation I'm referring to natural vajroli and nectar cycle that happens from simply doing pranayama and mantras. Which by recognizing and resting in voidness, happens automatically too.
The main point is that within the experience of silence, ecstasy and nothingness there is something special going on. When mind does look into the void, the experiencer disappears and in so doing an unequaled ecstasy, unequaled I tell you, sir.
That's why I say bliss, clarity and nondistinction are the three ingredients to enlightenment. When you cook them all together every thought, object, and experience has these three elements, and one realizes buddhahood in one life.
If what I'm saying here is said equivalently in AYP, I submit. At least you get a real vajra perspective from someone with the knowledge, transmissions and practice to explain it correctly. Then, you can accurately say, O yea, Buddhists say such and such and be right.
I will tell you again to use this teaching of the four moments in your samadhi. Very few has this teaching from the Hevajra Tantra, because the lineage is so small now. I want to pass this on to you Kirtanman, because I know you are a Shaiva practitioner and this comes from that, except for this is very refined. Lakshan Joo's lineage does not have this elegance.
In the first moment of bliss or ecstasy or silence, observe this has no color, shape or any characteristic, right? Within that moment of observing nothing, the quality of it having the characteristic of bliss, ecstasy or silence drops off into a passionlessness, neither joy nor not. This is the nature of the fourth jhana in Theravada practice. Within this third moment you continue to observe until the whole possibility of observer and observed is gone, vanished, what do you call it? You can't call it anything; it is beyond description, but as long as you stay with it you will definitely suck the teat of the holy mother. You will not need food, water or air and siddhis will pour out.
This is not a competition. I'm only trying to help with what I can bring to the table. What I have here is nothing to sneeze at. This knowledge is very rare. As long as you are sticking to one side as the subject being the ultimate, you are into a formlessness that is not ultimate. It is like flying to Mars. You might be 99% accurate, but that 1% off will land you into deep space going way off track. It doesn't take much to make the one percent adjustment.
Anyway, I'm sorry. That's all. So Sorry. You know better. I'm sure you are a great practitioner, and you are a teacher. I will listen to what you say. Thank you. |
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AlanCrawfordUK
United Kingdom
24 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 02:45:51 AM
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Thanks to you all for your considered and helpful responses
tadeas - right now I am doing Asanas, Spinal Breathing and Deep Meditation, followed by rest, twice daily. I am very attracted to Samyama as a practice but recognise that I need to build a consistent practice SBP and Deep Meditation for a number of months before advancing.
I recognise your point there is a lot of overlap between Metta and Samyama!
Saagaram - I take your point that, loving kindness and compassion will arise naturally as a result of AYP and Cosmic - I am re-assured that you have found by experience that the Love and Peace generated in Samyama flows over in to your every day life. The very purpose of Metta is cultivate a feeling of cherishing others and having loving kindness and compassion for all people you encounter, even those we may not "like" or may find "difficult".
The basic practice, as taught to me, is to relax in to meditation posture, bring to mind someone you deeply love and care about, someone you find it easy to feel unconditional love for. Allow a feeling of love, affection and warmth to develop. Then bring to mind a good friend, trying to maintain that feeling of loving kindness for them too. Next bring to mind a neutral person, someone you neither like or disklike and again, generate / feel loving kindness for them, a strong wish for them not to suffer and for them to be happy. Next (and most difficult) bring to mind a "difficult" person and try to feel loving kindness for them too. Finally bring to mind all of the above, and try to generate loving kindness equally for each and then move on to gradually offer loving kindness to the entire universe. Many people also include an initial stage in which they generate loving kindness for themselves before moving on to the sequence above.
Kirtanman - I agree 100% that there is just one enlightenment and that any spiritual practices (whether AYP or Buddhist in origin) are means of spiritual growth towards attaining this goal. Buddha advises that teachings / practices are like a boat we use to cross a river and get to the other side.
The reason I am interested in adding in some Buddhist practices are that, despite normally resisting labels, I identify as a Buddhist for the following reasons:
(a) I really resonate with Buddhist teachings - they offer a complete view of the mind, how to work with negative / unhelpful thoughts and emotions, how to cultivate loving kindness, patient acceptance, non-attachment and mindfulness and put these principles in to action in daily life. Whilst I understand that these may come almost as a by-produce of AYP, and Samyama in particular, they are not addressed directly whereas in Buddhism we deliberate / consciously cultivate them and discuss how to apply them to our daily lives. This is not a criticism, AYP seems take a very practice-based approach, and has already brought so much to my practice. However, I am drawn to directly cultivating the qualities mentioned.
(b) I am honest and self-aware enough to recognise that I have some intellectual and emotional attachment to the Buddhist practices that have brought me to this stage of my spiritual growth where I have found AYP. Whilst I feel AYP will take my practice to the next level (and I have already seen improvement / growth), it would be "nice" to be able to keep some continuity with the Buddhist practices. I understand that this isn't a brilliant reason to do such practices, but just being honest!
(c) given that I identify as Buddhist and would like to continue attending weekly Buddhist classes and the occasional short retreat when time and money allow, continuing some of these core Buddhist practices would allow me to keep a connection with Buddhist thought and practice.
I really do recognise, reading back, that the second two points I have made are quite weak and just seem to suggest attachment to practices / techniques. The first point stands though in that I get something from Buddhism that I don't get from AYP. Whilst I recognise the power and effectiveness of AYP techniques, I don't want to lose Buddhism all together if that makes any sense!
Wishing you peace and happiness,
Alan
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Edited by - AlanCrawfordUK on Dec 14 2010 03:08:06 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 02:55:15 AM
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Hi Alan,
Lots of great advice already. I just wanted to add some specifics.
If you want to integrate Buddhist practice with AYP, there are basically 2 ways you can do it. One is to do your AYP practice in the morning, and your Buddhist practice in the evening, before dinner. That's the easy way. The second would be to tie in the Buddhist practices with both sitting sessions.
If you went for the second method, your practice routine could look something like this:
Spinal breathing
Anapanasati
Deep Meditation
Metta Bhavana,
Samyama
Contemplative meditation (vipassana),
Rest (savasana)
I put them in that order based on a basic principle which is that you begin with the more gross (prana) and go progressively towards the more subtle, and then come back out again into rest. Deep meditation works on a more subtle level (manomayakosha) than anapanasati, so anapanasati would go first etc. The timings would be up to you to figure out depending on how much time you have available and on what your system can handle. Basically I would give equal time to each with a few minutes rest at the end.
The advantage with the second method is that you are going inward with the same practices twice a day, so the effect on the pranic body (subtle neurobiology) is more powerful.
You already know to be careful about doubling up on practices, but I have to mention it again, as it is easy to forget. Just start out gently and take it from there.
Good luck. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 03:12:28 AM
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Hi Alan
p.s. The points you made in your last post above are not weak at all. If you are already established in a practice (any practice) it is important to keep continuity, especially if you feel a strong resonance with that practice. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 03:43:09 AM
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Hi Sagaaram,
quote:
Bliss you understand is the sexual introversion energy, and clarity is your awareness bright and shiny like the sunlight.
quote:
In Yogani's new book, he says that the mind can't see mind itself, and that inner silence is the Self. In one of these articles on this site, he talks about it being unconditioned awareness and in another nothingness that's aware. This is 99% right.
In the practice of vajrayana mind does see mind itself, and it sees by not seeing, experiences by not experiencing and so forth. It sees not seeing. It fully recognizes the nature of mind's voidness and thereby recognizes the voidness of everything else, which, believe me is not nihilistic. Maybe to a philosopher, but as a direct experience it is orgasmic.
quote:
The main point is that within the experience of silence, ecstasy and nothingness there is something special going on. When mind does look into the void, the experiencer disappears and in so doing an unequaled ecstasy, unequaled I tell you, sir.
That's why I say bliss, clarity and nondistinction are the three ingredients to enlightenment. When you cook them all together every thought, object, and experience has these three elements, and one realizes buddhahood in one life.
If what I'm saying here is said equivalently in AYP, I submit.
I think this could simply be a semantic issue (as is often the case with Buddhist/ Yogic discussions).
Going from the top: in AYP the word ecstasy is used to refer to the sexual introversion energy, whereas bliss is reserved for the experience of inner silence and the experience of emptiness. The word "mind" is also used differently in Yoga. In Yoga "mind" refers to "mind-stuff", which in Buddhism would be "mental objects". In Buddhism "mind" in it's enlightened nature is Self-aware, whereas in Yoga, it is the Self (Atman) which possesses self-awareness.
quote:
That's why I say bliss, clarity and nondistinction are the three ingredients to enlightenment.
So in AYP, we would say ecstasy rather than bliss, bliss rather than clarity, and dispassion rather than non-distinction. If you read Yogani's book on Self-Inquiry, you can see that dispassion is the preliminary stage to enlightenment. So the three ingredients for Enlightenment are: Ecstasy, bliss and dispassion, or as you say: Bliss, clarity and non-distinction.
Let's not get lost in the words.
I'm very much enjoying your contributions to the forum, and your wisdom on Buddhist Vajrayana.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Dec 14 2010 03:56:41 AM |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 09:49:29 AM
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| Hi Alan, I think the AYP method is more high-tech improvement for divine outpouring of love than you are doing in the Buddhist method. Ecstatic bliss and silence do definitely embrace all beings in a natural and very moving way. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 10:23:35 AM
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Hi Christi, I think what you said is very helpful. I will ship you loads of cash to be my translator.
Maybe you can help me with this too. In Vajrayana pranayama a very important concept of is View, Action, Meditation, Fruit. Milarepa sang many songs about these four things. Vajrayana approach to pranayama is a little different because of have a different View, Action, Meditation and Fruit.
Our View is interdependent origination. So when we practice pranayama, we don't have a view that kundalini just happens. We happen to it. So our Action is to visualize the kundalini as fire element rising up the central channel (with the sound of syllable AH) and melting a visualized cream or butter lining inside of the crown (with sound of syllable HAHM). When you see the tantric practitioners drinking from the skull cup of a famous yogi, it is because that yogi actualized the blessings of this practice and so they made a skull cup out of his head to drink some of those blessings. Then we visualize the cream melting down the central channel and dripping to each of the chakras one by one. A strong bliss sensation spreads out from the chakra into the subsidiary nadis, permeating the whole area. Eventually, the whole body is in a powerful ecstasy. With this as the object of meditation we practice in the four moments I described before and Meditation is the second and third moments. The Fruit is the fourth moment.
Then we kick it up a notch. As the rise of ecstatic conductivity emerges and grows in intensity we visualize the cream dripping down onto the flame at the navel visualization and that visualization causes an intense blazing at the navel. Even though we are visualizing, the flame naturally blazes and the cream naturally drips more and more. It's funny cool. The ecstatic sensation is so intense it is beyond even intense. There's no word for it.
Because the bliss sensation is so intense the practice of the four moments go deeper and deeper and deeper and enlightenment. It's unavoidable.
Another crazy cool awesome practice is when doing sexual union with a partner, oh man, I'm telling you this is a mind blow. Doing natural hold back with small urethra and anal sqeeze causes an opening of the central channel just below the navel. By visualizing the flame there but especially a tiny sun and doing gentle pranayama, Whoa! Cosmic Samyama baby!
There is a lot written here about crown problems. Our practice is crown crown all the way. But we are very aware of this problem. There are various ways of dealing with it, usually having to do with gentle crown exercises like guru yoga and vajrasattva recitation. Those take a long time to finish and in the end you have an easy time with pranayama and crown.
But my secret I share with you is to visualize a tiny cool moon in the brow. You often see the drawing of tilak as a crescent moon? You often hear the ida pingala described as sun and moon. And there are many descriptions of yoga as union of sun and moon. I visualize a full silver moon sphere glowing from the light of the sun I visualize rising up and down while I do pranayama. A very powerful wonderful practice is to visualize this moon in the brow as cool. This brings balance to the crown and I will visualize the sun rising out of my crown over my head about one foot and illuminating the universe. I also visualize the sun reach the middle of head and sun and moon make full solar eclipse. This is very powerful cosmic samyama and is a practice at the heart of the ancient pre-buddhist pre-vedic methodology. I have no problem with this. It is very nice. Then I proceed to blazing and dripping visualization. It helps to visualize the body is an empty crystal decanter too. Okay now I go practice. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 10:39:57 AM
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So the main point I was making was interdependent origination. With the View, Action, Meditation and Fruit and Four Moments, we actively create the conditions of our meditation. It is a bliss that is actualized actively. So when we say, oh that yogi is realized, we don't mean something happened to her, we mean she made it happen.
Christi, you did a good job explaining the three moments, ecstasy, bliss and dispassion. What about the fourth moment? We call the fourth moment Mahamudra. It is not subject, not object, non-arising, non-ceasing, etc. not anything but it is an indescribable joy, awakened and expanded, Buddha. Then, upon arising from samadhi, any thought, any experience whatsoever is exactly that, non-arising, non-ceasing, ecstatic dispassion etc. So there is no possibility of distraction and the fruit is meditation is no meditation, no action, no view... Liberation.
How does this translate please? Okay now I go practice. Thank you. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 12:48:12 PM
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Hi Christi, I gave this some thought. I think the correspondences we discussed are off. I think it goes like this:
You say, "ecstatic conductivity" we say "bliss." You say, "inner silence" we say "clarity." You say, "Unity" we say "nondistinction."
Then we say there is a fourth, beyond Unity and beyond nonduality, the indescribable innate state of the fourth moment, aka Mahamudra or Mahati sometimes called the co-emergent or sahaja samadhi.
When this is realized the wish-fulfilling gem analogy applies, because these four are like the four sides of a gem. Even in ordinary awareness, common sense basic everyday mind, there are these four moments at every moment, every thought, object everything is just this. This is meaning of liberation. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 1:32:31 PM
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Now I will give you an amalgamation practice based on AYP practice and Tantric Buddhism. I think you will appreciate this it is works because I gave it a try and it works great. This is the real sweet nectar so get ready.
Okay there is variation on your Spinal Breathing Pranayama; don't worry we will not engage crown, no need for that. So this is within bounds of your practice.
Visualize your body is hollow like a blown up balloon. Or better that it is insubstantial like a rainbow. Visualize the tube of central channel from brow to four finger widths below navel similar to how you do on AYP but not all the way to root chakra only to four finger widths below navel; this is very important.
Visualize the two ida and pingala going from nostrils parallel to shushumna and ending just below the central channel below navel.
Visualize a moon sphere, exactly the moon as you see on full moon night bright and detailed but tiny like a mustard seed, visualize this in your brow.
Visualize a tiny sun four finger lengths the navel, just below the central channel and between the ends of ida and pingala. Their ends are like the old 1700s rifles that have a trumpet nose.
Here you breath in slowly full yogic breathing, as you breath in five color lights representing the five elements, blue, green, white, red and yellow enter the nostrils, flow down the side channels and meet the rotating sun below the navel. There the lights also spin around and illuminate the central channel and the whole lower part of the body, legs and everything. You imagine that all your impurities are being sucked into the sun like iron filaments into a magnet and are totally incinerated and leaving only the steam of hot bliss.
Lightly contract the urethra and sphincter and exhale visualizing the blazing sun shoots up the central channel followed by all the swirling rainbow colors and bliss and meets the moon like a full solar eclipse with all its magical brilliance and the whole body and whole world is filled with your light. Here you do shambhavi and kechari also no problem.
Inhale and visualize the sun falls down the central channel like a metal ball in a plastic tube, while the rainbow lights fill the side channels, and begin again.
This is AYP + Buddhist Tantra Spinal Breathing Pranayama.
Here is AYP + Budhist Tantra Kumbhaka + uddiyana bandha, mula bandha, shambhavi etc.
Now the sun visualization becomes the sound and meaning of "I." You visualize this I to be a straight line like |, red in color and fiery hot like a photon laser beam. In the middle of your brow chakra, not be between the eyes, but at the bend in the middle of the head, you visualize "am" with meaning of am. Visualize the "a" over the "m" both white in color. Now the side channels are not very important.
When you inhale hold and protrude the abdomen out like a pot. Press down with uddiyana, and contract the urethra and/or sphincter. This must be done very gently and erotically. This is very important. Forcing is like self rape or self hate Fing. This is not porno. This is love dear. You are making love to the goddess within. You visualize the winds and all impurities blow gently on the super blazing hot "|" and ignite into fire.
As you exhale this fire shoots up the central channel and heats the white "am." The whole body is filled with blazing flames until flame shoots out of your pores and burns up the whole universe.
As you inhale the fire goes back down and do again and again.
This phase you carry on for days, weeks or months whatever until you genuinely feel the heat in your body. You don't have to do heroic legendary heat like the yogis of mountains, you don't need to heat up your dinner with this heat. You just need to feel blissful warmth everywhere. Then, the next phase can begin.
The next phase is very special. Now as you inhale and apply the pot bandhas the winds gather into the red hot "|" and it gets super duper duper duper hot and blazing.
As you exhale... SHAZAM! a Superman laser red hot lighting beam blasts off into the "am" and it starts oozing warm white cream from the bottom of the m like little faucets that drips down the central channel on the "|" causing sparks and blasts of fire to spout in all directions and blowing everything all to oblivion.
Then, as you inhale applying pot bandhas it drips and drips inexhaustibly down into the throat, heart and navel chakras. This part is not a visualization it is the effect of this practice. And your whole body will be orgasming super duper duper intensely within the channels and chakras.
Then you break and do I AM mantra practice like usual with no visualization. If you try this you may find it to be very delightful. It's more complicated, but it is worth the effort.
One way to simplify it is not to deal too much with visualizing flames spreading out. Just keep the flames in the central channel swirling up into the "am."
The real fruit of this practice to recognize the interdependence of body, speech and mind, and within the four moments practice you gain the supreme. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 3:34:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Some of you are mentioning high teachings such as Mahamudra, but not mentioning the highest teaching Dzogchen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
Highest is a relative term. I have been teaching Dzogchen. If you look at my Paarayana thread, it's Trekcho. If you look in there at the "Two Eyes" it's Thogal. My discussion about emanation of cosmic buddha is the ja lus. This practice of bliss is Mahamudra. The realization of the Fourth Moment is Mahamudra Trecho same thing. If you look at the realization that all possible phenomena are exhausted in the post-meditation of non-practice it is the fruition of Thogal. My teaching on the two eyes is "higher than the highest." Even the Ati Yoga teachers know nothing about it, because they don't know how to reach exhaustion of dharmas in all practical reality. So don't think you are missing anything. I gave you the best of the best. |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 3:42:42 PM
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| Hi Saragaram, thank you for all the fascinating insights into your tradition. I follow you on the 4 moments, I think; but what is it when there is spontaneous death like khumbaka, with no awareness of any kind whatsoever; no bliss, no mind, no nothing, no void, no moment: such that you don't even know it occurred until afterward. With thanks, to you, or any other who can comment on this. All the best, dfb |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 4:06:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by divinefurball
Hi Saragaram, thank you for all the fascinating insights into your tradition. I follow you on the 4 moments, I think; but what is it when there is spontaneous death like khumbaka, with no awareness of any kind whatsoever; no bliss, no mind, no nothing, no void, no moment: such that you don't even know it occurred until afterward. With thanks, to you, or any other who can comment on this. All the best, dfb
This is the a formless concentration. It's too far to one extreme. You have to come back from it a bit. It's not a harm or problem. Of course you can enjoy it. But the four moments are not accessible here. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 4:11:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Some of you are mentioning high teachings such as Mahamudra, but not mentioning the highest teaching Dzogchen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
By the way do you know where Ati Yoga comes from? It doesn't have a Buddhist origin.
http://shivadarshana.blogspot.com/2...edingly.html
The tantras of the Shaiva and Buddhist tradition are closely interlinked. But the realization of Indra's Pearls in the heart chakra is uniquely Buddhist. Without this knowledge liberation is just an idea rather than a lived through experience. The Mahamudra people have it too, they realize it through penetrating insight into the dharmakaya as the manifestation of all possibilities. |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 4:37:04 PM
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| Hi Saaagaram, thanks for your reply, but no, it is not formless concentration. There is no concentration, and it is not something that can be practiced, or not practiced; nor can you "come back from it a bit", or enjoy it. It is unavoidable and incohate like lightning - It is something else entirely. However, it is true that the four moments are not accessible then: they are given, with other things, afterward. All the best, dfb |
Edited by - divinefurball on Dec 14 2010 5:54:15 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 6:08:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Some of you are mentioning high teachings such as Mahamudra, but not mentioning the highest teaching Dzogchen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
By the way do you know where Ati Yoga comes from? It doesn't have a Buddhist origin.
http://shivadarshana.blogspot.com/2...edingly.html
The tantras of the Shaiva and Buddhist tradition are closely interlinked. But the realization of Indra's Pearls in the heart chakra is uniquely Buddhist. Without this knowledge liberation is just an idea rather than a lived through experience. The Mahamudra people have it too, they realize it through penetrating insight into the dharmakaya as the manifestation of all possibilities.
Dzogchen is completely Indian Buddhism
http://www.atikosha.org/2010/11/kin...tml#comments |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 14 2010 6:12:02 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 7:50:38 PM
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Hi Saagram,
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Dear Kirtanman,
http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
http://www.aypsite.org/157.html
In Yogani's new book, he says that the mind can't see mind itself, and that inner silence is the Self. In one of these articles on this site, he talks about it being unconditioned awareness and in another nothingness that's aware. This is 99% right.
Thanks for the links; they were helpful in understanding where you're coming from; as Christi wrote, a lot of this boils down to semantics - and possibly a bit of mutual confusion (between any two or more people posting here) at times about terms and definitions.
My point was simply that once we get the semantics / terms / definitions cleared up, we (those posting in this thread), as well as AYP / the Buddhist views and techniques that you're promoting .... are actually not as far apart as it may seem to you, now.
Maybe I'm wrong on that; cool if so; maybe we'll find out, via the discussion.
quote:
In the practice of vajrayana mind does see mind itself, and it sees by not seeing, experiences by not experiencing and so forth. It sees not seeing. It fully recognizes the nature of mind's voidness and thereby recognizes the voidness of everything else, which, believe me is not nihilistic. Maybe to a philosopher, but as a direct experience it is orgasmic.
I understand, and am quite familiar with it. If I understand correctly, you're talking about the literal natural state - pure awareness, yes?
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When I say introversion of ejaculation I'm referring to natural vajroli and nectar cycle that happens from simply doing pranayama and mantras.
Cool; I didn't realize that's what you were saying; thanks for the clarification.
quote:
Which by recognizing and resting in voidness, happens automatically too.
Sure; agreed. As you may know, AYP is set up for anyone to "walk in off the street", so to speak ... and since most can't simply rest in voidness, as you say, AYP practices help those without inner silence to develop the ability to do this.
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The main point is that within the experience of silence, ecstasy and nothingness there is something special going on. When mind does look into the void, the experiencer disappears and in so doing an unequaled ecstasy, unequaled I tell you, sir.
Well, yes - and I don't know if your use of the word ecstasy refers to this, as well - but living from this awareness-beingness is Satchidananda - being-consciousness-bliss.
quote:
That's why I say bliss, clarity and nondistinction are the three ingredients to enlightenment. When you cook them all together every thought, object, and experience has these three elements, and one realizes buddhahood in one life.
True - Buddhahood, aka Liberation, aka Enlightenment, aka a Lot Of Things, including simply "no longer dreaming" - i.e. "awake", as the Buddha famously said.
quote:
If what I'm saying here is said equivalently in AYP, I submit.
No need to submit - I'm just trying to clarify, because I do think (as Christi pointed out) that much of the lack of communication regarding your introduction of Buddhist techniques and information has been due to semantic issues.
All valid approaches, especially the efficient and effective ones, say the same things, because they're maps to the same place (maps from the experience of unreality, to being reality).
quote:
At least you get a real vajra perspective from someone with the knowledge, transmissions and practice to explain it correctly.
That's awesome; I, at least am 100% in favor of that. Vajrayana is one path I find interesting, that we don't have a lot of information on here at the AYP Forum.
quote:
Then, you can accurately say, O yea, Buddhists say such and such and be right.
Sounds good.
quote:
I will tell you again to use this teaching of the four moments in your samadhi. Very few has this teaching from the Hevajra Tantra, because the lineage is so small now. I want to pass this on to you Kirtanman, because I know you are a Shaiva practitioner and this comes from that, except for this is very refined. Lakshan Joo's lineage does not have this elegance.
I'm not really a Shaiva practitioner, but still work with the model to describe things (so your comment is pertinent).
And if there's something elegant that Lakshmanjoo's lineage, or AYP, doesn't have ... I'm interested in knowing of it (a big part of what I'm "about", long-term, is to be able to say "here's another great technique for people at X or Y level" .... it's all about what works for any given person, at any given time).
quote:
In the first moment of bliss or ecstasy or silence, observe this has no color, shape or any characteristic, right? Within that moment of observing nothing, the quality of it having the characteristic of bliss, ecstasy or silence drops off into a passionlessness, neither joy nor not. This is the nature of the fourth jhana in Theravada practice. Within this third moment you continue to observe until the whole possibility of observer and observed is gone, vanished, what do you call it? You can't call it anything; it is beyond description, but as long as you stay with it you will definitely suck the teat of the holy mother. You will not need food, water or air and siddhis will pour out.
Okay. Not really interested in that, but maybe some here are.
Also - I'm not really clear on how what you're describing differs from Nirvikalpa Samadhi (Samadhi without thought-constructs; i.e. beyond subject-object duality).
Initially, Nirvikalpa is free of duality, but not necessarily free of the possibility (as you wrote above) of subject-object (observer-observed) duality. As Nirvikalpa deepens, not only does the possibility of duality cease in samadhi .. it ultimately ceases, period.
Then, there's freedom - including the freedom to be infinite, focused, or experience any point in-between ... which usually consists of simply living as a happy, liberated human.
If you haven't read it, you may want to check out Yogani's most recent lesson - Freedom:
http://www.aypsite.org/430.html
quote:
This is not a competition.
I don't see this as a competition either; solely as a conversation.
I've just seen, a time or two, where you seem to be (at least somewhat) jumping to conclusions about AYP, and so I'm just trying to clarify what I see as your misunderstanding, there -- in the exact same way that I'm confident you would do --- and hope you would do --- if I said, or say, things that seem incorrect about the Buddhist views and techniques you're introducing here.
quote:
I'm only trying to help with what I can bring to the table. What I have here is nothing to sneeze at. This knowledge is very rare.
Great - let's continue the discussion, then.
quote:
As long as you are sticking to one side as the subject being the ultimate, you are into a formlessness that is not ultimate. It is like flying to Mars. You might be 99% accurate, but that 1% off will land you into deep space going way off track. It doesn't take much to make the one percent adjustment.
I'm not sure what the "one side" you're referring to, is? Please clarify, if you don't mind.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 8:04:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanCrawfordUK
Thanks to you all for your considered and helpful responses
tadeas - right now I am doing Asanas, Spinal Breathing and Deep Meditation, followed by rest, twice daily. I am very attracted to Samyama as a practice but recognise that I need to build a consistent practice SBP and Deep Meditation for a number of months before advancing.
I recognise your point there is a lot of overlap between Metta and Samyama!
Saagaram - I take your point that, loving kindness and compassion will arise naturally as a result of AYP and Cosmic - I am re-assured that you have found by experience that the Love and Peace generated in Samyama flows over in to your every day life. The very purpose of Metta is cultivate a feeling of cherishing others and having loving kindness and compassion for all people you encounter, even those we may not "like" or may find "difficult".
The basic practice, as taught to me, is to relax in to meditation posture, bring to mind someone you deeply love and care about, someone you find it easy to feel unconditional love for. Allow a feeling of love, affection and warmth to develop. Then bring to mind a good friend, trying to maintain that feeling of loving kindness for them too. Next bring to mind a neutral person, someone you neither like or disklike and again, generate / feel loving kindness for them, a strong wish for them not to suffer and for them to be happy. Next (and most difficult) bring to mind a "difficult" person and try to feel loving kindness for them too. Finally bring to mind all of the above, and try to generate loving kindness equally for each and then move on to gradually offer loving kindness to the entire universe. Many people also include an initial stage in which they generate loving kindness for themselves before moving on to the sequence above.
Kirtanman - I agree 100% that there is just one enlightenment and that any spiritual practices (whether AYP or Buddhist in origin) are means of spiritual growth towards attaining this goal. Buddha advises that teachings / practices are like a boat we use to cross a river and get to the other side.
The reason I am interested in adding in some Buddhist practices are that, despite normally resisting labels, I identify as a Buddhist for the following reasons:
(a) I really resonate with Buddhist teachings - they offer a complete view of the mind, how to work with negative / unhelpful thoughts and emotions, how to cultivate loving kindness, patient acceptance, non-attachment and mindfulness and put these principles in to action in daily life. Whilst I understand that these may come almost as a by-produce of AYP, and Samyama in particular, they are not addressed directly whereas in Buddhism we deliberate / consciously cultivate them and discuss how to apply them to our daily lives. This is not a criticism, AYP seems take a very practice-based approach, and has already brought so much to my practice. However, I am drawn to directly cultivating the qualities mentioned.
(b) I am honest and self-aware enough to recognise that I have some intellectual and emotional attachment to the Buddhist practices that have brought me to this stage of my spiritual growth where I have found AYP. Whilst I feel AYP will take my practice to the next level (and I have already seen improvement / growth), it would be "nice" to be able to keep some continuity with the Buddhist practices. I understand that this isn't a brilliant reason to do such practices, but just being honest!
(c) given that I identify as Buddhist and would like to continue attending weekly Buddhist classes and the occasional short retreat when time and money allow, continuing some of these core Buddhist practices would allow me to keep a connection with Buddhist thought and practice.
I really do recognise, reading back, that the second two points I have made are quite weak and just seem to suggest attachment to practices / techniques. The first point stands though in that I get something from Buddhism that I don't get from AYP. Whilst I recognise the power and effectiveness of AYP techniques, I don't want to lose Buddhism all together if that makes any sense!
Wishing you peace and happiness,
Alan
Hi Alan,
This post helped clarify a lot; thank you!
My own view, and I believe Yogani has said/emphasized this as well, is that AYP is 100% suitable for anyone following any spiritual path (i.e. equally suitable for Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Atheists; the spiritual but non-religious, and so on).
Obviously, certain members and teachers within those systems may not agree, but as far as AYP is concerned - it works just fine for anyone with a human body-mind.
And so, I would say, and it seems you feel this way already, that AYP is 100% compatible with your Buddhist path.
The only concern is simply whether or not adding a given practice (i.e. watching the breath meditation) would be equivalent to adding a session of Deep Meditation (i.e. does breath observation meditation have similar effects to mantra meditation? I don't know if it does or not ... and maybe this has been commented upon further; I'm answering this post prior to reading through the entire thread. )
Sometimes, it may seem as though we're almost too conservative regarding adding non-AYP practices. This isn't due to any attitudes against them -- but rather that those of us who've been at this a while have seen some strange things throw people into overload ... including additional practices which would seem to contain no energy-dynamics at all.
And so, ultimately, you can see for yourself ... it's probably just wise to proceed very incrementally ... as in: if you really want to add a lovingkindness meditation, maybe try literally a minute or two of it, at most, to start - and then gauge the results, and add as you go, etc.
I've done some lovingkindness types of practice myself, but never in direct conjunction with AYP sitting practices, and have never had a problem.
I feel that lovingkindness is much like pure awareness -- so intimately close to/as the source of this that we each and all ever are now, that it's equivalent to a cat practicing felineness ... and therefore rather unlikely to cause any issues.
Purely from a sitting-practice standpoint, though, it just makes sense to add anything you add carefully ... and note the results.
I literally can't imagine it being a problem --- but that doesn't mean it might not be; my recommendation is just about recommended procedure, when adding any other practices to an AYP routine.
I hope that's useful!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 8:28:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Hi Christi, I gave this some thought. I think the correspondences we discussed are off. I think it goes like this:
You say, "ecstatic conductivity" we say "bliss." You say, "inner silence" we say "clarity." You say, "Unity" we say "nondistinction."
Then we say there is a fourth, beyond Unity and beyond nonduality, the indescribable innate state of the fourth moment, aka Mahamudra or Mahati sometimes called the co-emergent or sahaja samadhi.
When this is realized the wish-fulfilling gem analogy applies, because these four are like the four sides of a gem. Even in ordinary awareness, common sense basic everyday mind, there are these four moments at every moment, every thought, object everything is just this. This is meaning of liberation.
Yogani describes this liberated state as follows, in Lesson 390:
quote:
unidentified awareness in non-duality. This is the place where nothing need be proclaimed, and where the most joyful participation in life is found. It is our natural condition.
http://www.aypsite.org/390.html
At Living Unbound (my website) we say "awareness is wholeness" -- meaning: awareness is not separate from its objects.
At a recent retreat, someone asked me if my experience of walking and talking was of "one", or "two" (people).
I replied, "It just doesn't come up; there's no evaluation; it just is."
Evaluation of non-duality is duality, ditto evaluation of enlightenment; ditto evaluation, period.
The illusion of artificial distinctions being the whole of reality falls away, and then suchness, isness, whatever-you-want-to-call-it-ness just flows .... and it's equally available to us all, because it's what we are.
And it's not anywhere else; it's what's living every life.
The experience of bondage happens within the actuality of liberation.
Enlightenment isn't gained - the chokehold of the dream of unenlightenment falls away.
However, that chokehold is strong ... it's experienced as quite real, down to the deepest levels of our neurobiology, until it's not any longer.
When it falls away, though -- the power of memory, imagination and ego to display the joy of this living moment as a bad dream is beautifully gone.
And it's utterly, sweetly, deliciously real --- and utterly available; again - it's what we are.
I know many reading know this --- but if you still have suffering, know that an end to it is not only possible -- but really available.
And available here, and/or via any effective path.
The main ingredient is simple willingness, sincerity and dedication; life will give us the rest, we just have to be willing, is all.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Combining AYP with Buddhist Practice?
