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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 07 2010 : 10:34:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Why try so hard to paint a turd gold? The good that came from it was that I survived a life-threatening illness.
Great line.
But I'm not trying to paint pooop 
As they say, there is always a silver lining. Everything has a positive aspect, no matter how small.
But I get your point, which is that some things are just not cool at all... for example, the many mass murders of the XXth Century.
I am grappling with this idea right now, in the karmic sense.
When is it time to feel that this (problem, complication, issue, burden) is not a result of my own shortcomings, but is instead something that has happened to me.
In a sense, it's about finding the balance between perpetrator and victim. We are both, but we are neither fully and never act from that identity.
This showed up this morning: I get an early morning call about a bank problem. I realized immediately two things with full confidence:
1) this is most certainly not the result of my own misjudgment, wrongdoing or a karmic lesson. As in: not my fault. and,
2) this is a reflection of a problem that has occurred a couple of times in the past. In those prior two cases, I felt at the time that it must be my fault... even though I realize now that it wasn't. I simply attributed anything going wrong like that to some shortcoming of my own, as if I was responsible for everything that happened in my life.
Now I know the real lesson isn't that I'm doing something wrong that i must fix.
The real lesson here is that not everything is the result of my own choices, and I should not burden myself with this belief!
Sorry to go off on a tangent. As so often happens, topics on this forum flow with our lives |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2010 : 12:48:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
In the last day here, I have just 'come back to life' from a violent stomach flu. My experience was that the suffering was real, and could not be transformed in any way. No good came from it in other words, no spiritual growth. Sometimes, suffering is just suffering. Other times, it is an illusion and will dissolve in self-inquiry.
Hi JDH, glad you are feeling better!!
I'm not sure if this is just squibbling over semantics, but the key distinction is between pain and suffering. Yes it is true that the physical pain or discomfort may not be possible to avoid. "Stuff" happens (particularly with a stomach bug  )
But while physical pain may be experienced by the body (as perceived through the senses), it is the judgements/attachments related to the experience that cause the "suffering". "Why does this always happen to me?" "I hate getting sick!" "I can't afford to be sick, I have too much to do" "I don't like this feeling am suffering" "It shouldn't be this way". I know I personally do it all the time. The pain is experienced by the body, but the suffering part happens in the mind. We have identified ourselves with the experience of what is happening in the body.
The freedom from suffering comes when we let go of our judgements about the pain, namely that it shouldn't be happening or that we would rather feel a different way. Which is very hard to do unless The Witness is present. Completely accepting whatever is happening without putting a lot of labels on it like good or bad, desireable or undesireable. It is just something happening to the body.
I had two recent situations where this became more clear to me. First was a sinus infection. My body felt bad, headaches, pressure, the body was tired, etc but it all felt like it was happening to the body and there wasn't any suffering related to it. The body felt it, but I didn't judge it. And then last night, I forgot my coat, its a long walk from the office to my car, and it had gotten really cold out. Immediately I felt the body contract and I thought wow its really cold, as I started to judge it "I hate the cold, I wish I dressed warmer," etc I decided to let the judgements go and just experience the sensations. Yes the body felt cold, but no judging. The body is shivering now, the hands are numb now, ears feel like they might fall off. It was reallly interesting to consciously separate the physical sensations from the judgements of the mind. Not surprisingly as I let go of the judgements there was no suffering because of the cold, only shivering and mild pain to which there was no emotional attachment.
So now I'm going to forget my coat every night and use it as a tool to practice this distinction. It will probably cause another sinus infection. Another great opportunity for spiritual practice. 
Who knows why things happen, but two things that I have found: (1) the suffering that comes with the inevitable ups and downs of life can cause us to look for an end to this type of cycle, namely spiritual liberation, and (2)with the Witness present, the moments of "suffering" can be very useful indicators as to where we still have attachments/judgements.
Sorry for the long windedness or if you already know all of this stuff, just thought I'd share my perspective.
Much Love
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2010 : 1:20:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
So now I'm going to forget my coat every night and use it as a tool to practice this distinction. It will probably cause another sinus infection. Another great opportunity for spiritual practice.
You are kidding right?
Just because you are not suffering, please don't put your poor body through unnecessary pain. We don't want an unsuffering Parallax in the hospital with pneumonia. We rather have a healthy unsuffering Parallax here helping us out.
PS: Awesome post BTW. You stole the words right out of me. Loving what is accepting what is happening and not evaluating it with the mind. When we can do this, pain stays pain, while suffering is gone. This will come naturally to all of us. No use wanting to be somewhere we are not, but know it is a possibility.
Thanks Parallax. Very beautiful post. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2010 : 2:42:07 PM
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Thank you, I am glad to be feeling better too.
By evolutionary design, pain is a direct signal to our awareness of a problem - a danger, or potential danger to the life systems. It's instantaneous, doesn't have anything to do with thoughts, judgments, or mental constructs. If the pain or problem is severe enough, it will over-ride the system, and block out the ability to even think. It's a stretch of semantics not to call such an experience suffering.
That's mostly what I was getting it. Self inquiry will reveal that there was nothing behind certain sufferings. Other sufferings will have very real sources. Some of those sources are so intense that all of the releasing, accepting, and embracing in the world will not change the basic flavor of the experience. That kind of intensity of experience can be spiritual in itself - but more in an 'about to die/fight for survival' kind of way than a spiritual growth kind of way. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2010 : 9:31:39 PM
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Hey JDH!
quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Thank you, I am glad to be feeling better too.
By evolutionary design, pain is a direct signal to our awareness of a problem - a danger, or potential danger to the life systems. It's instantaneous, doesn't have anything to do with thoughts, judgments, or mental constructs. If the pain or problem is severe enough, it will over-ride the system, and block out the ability to even think. It's a stretch of semantics not to call such an experience suffering.
That's mostly what I was getting it. Self inquiry will reveal that there was nothing behind certain sufferings. Other sufferings will have very real sources. Some of those sources are so intense that all of the releasing, accepting, and embracing in the world will not change the basic flavor of the experience. That kind of intensity of experience can be spiritual in itself - but more in an 'about to die/fight for survival' kind of way than a spiritual growth kind of way.
No question pain serves a useful purpose, and the experience of pain can't necessarily be avoided in life. If using the term "suffering" is simply to convey an intense or extreme experience of pain then I agree.
The suffering that I was referring to was the coloring or labeling of the experience of pain, as being bad, horrible, terrible, unfair, unjust, etc...this is adding mental pain on top of the physical pain. Is it possible to separate the two in extreme circumstances so we can experience extreme pain without the mental suffering aspect? I can't say for sure as I'm just learning how not to suffer when I have a runny nose or forgot my coat.
But I suspect that it is possible. What immediately came to mind was the pictures of the Buddhist monks during the Vietnam war calmly sitting down, dousing themselves with gas and setting themselves on fire. I'm sure it hurt...a lot. Did they suffer? I can't say for sure because I wasn't in their mind, but the fact that they approached it so calmly and didn't visibly react to the fact that they were burning alive suggests they weren't. In fact, I had read stories that a few monks were hoping to be the one chosen to do the act as it was considered such a high spiritual honor. The pain may even have been experienced as a positive thing given the spiritual value attached to it. How we interpret the experience can very much affect its basic flavor.
On the other hand, even people experiencing little to no physical pain can be in great suffering due to the workings of the mind. Think of all of the celebrities who appear to have it all, money, fame etc who commit suicide or turn to drugs because they are still suffering on the inside despite having every material convenience.
Personally I have a long way to go, but every circumstance in life is an opportunity to open to the experience of our underlying, unchanging divine essence.
FWIW
Peace & Love |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2010 : 9:46:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
So now I'm going to forget my coat every night and use it as a tool to practice this distinction. It will probably cause another sinus infection. Another great opportunity for spiritual practice.
You are kidding right?
Just because you are not suffering, please don't put your poor body through unnecessary pain. We don't want an unsuffering Parallax in the hospital with pneumonia. We rather have a healthy unsuffering Parallax here helping us out.
PS: Awesome post BTW. You stole the words right out of me. Loving what is accepting what is happening and not evaluating it with the mind. When we can do this, pain stays pain, while suffering is gone. This will come naturally to all of us. No use wanting to be somewhere we are not, but know it is a possibility.
Thanks Parallax. Very beautiful post.
Thank you my dear Shanti, you are too kind...of course, you were able to express my sentiment in 4 sentences instead of the 4 paragraphs it took me. Still much to learn _/\_
OK, I admit to doing one more walk to the car tonight without the coat just to practice, but it will be the last time...today Actually, I'm too much of a wimp to actively seek out pain, I just need a reminder from time to time to release, accept and open...oh yeah, that's what AYP is for...lucky me!!
Love to you
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Shivoham
India
107 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2010 : 11:33:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
3 - Self Inquiry. Most of our suffering is in the sense of being a separate self.
The biggest mistake we do is to think ourselves as a separate being having a freewill.
But in reality, eveyrthing is One!
When I wave my hands, blink my eyes, breahte, talk... everything is rooted and flowing from the whole.
One single mind.
The realisation of this is end to all sufferings.
Q: At this very moment who talks, if not the mind?
M: That which hears the question, answers it.
Q: But who is it?
M: Not who, but what. I'm not a person in your sense of the word, though I may appear a person to you. I am that infinite ocean of consciousness in which all happens. I am also beyond all existence and cognition, pure bliss of being. There is nothing I feel separate from, hence I am all. No thing is me, so I am nothing.
The same power that makes the fire burn and the water flow, the seeds sprout and the trees grow, makes me answer your questions. There is nothing personal about me, though the language and the style may appear personal. A person is a set pattern of desires and thoughts and resulting actions; there is no such pattern in my case. There is nothing I desire or fear -- how can there be a pattern?
~ I Am That : Nisargadatta
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OUR BELOVED MASTER, RYUSUI SAID:
EMPTINESS IS A NAME FOR NOTHINGNESS, A NAME FOR UNGRASPABILITY, A NAME FOR MOUNTAINS, RIVERS, THE WHOLE EARTH. IT IS ALSO CALLED THE REAL FORM. IN THE GREEN OF THE PINES, THE TWIST OF THE BRAMBLES, THERE IS NO GOING OR COMING. IN THE RED OF THE FLOWERS AND THE WHITE OF THE SNOW, THERE IS NO BIRTH AND NO DEATH.
JOY, ANGER, LOVE, PLEASURE -- THESE ARE BEGINNINGLESS AND ENDLESS DELUSION. ENLIGHTENMENT, PRACTICE, REALIZATION -- THESE ARE INEXHAUSTIBLE AND BOUNDLESS.
THEREFORE, IN THE FUNDAMENTAL VEHICLE THERE IS NO DELUSION OR ENLIGHTENMENT, NO PRACTICE OR REALIZATION. EVEN TO SPEAK OF PRACTICE AND REALIZATION IS A RELATIVE VIEW.
~ Turning In : Osho
There is only one fellow in and out of this whole universe.
Everything else is just minds and bodies.
Individual freewill is just an illusion.
There is no freewill, only freeing will of that one guy. |
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2010 : 02:58:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
In the last day here, I have just 'come back to life' from a violent stomach flu. My experience was that the suffering was real, and could not be transformed in any way. No good came from it in other words, no spiritual growth. Sometimes, suffering is just suffering. Other times, it is an illusion and will dissolve in self-inquiry.
but that was just your body responding to the disease, right?
now what your mind does with it is a totally different matter.
right? |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2010 : 4:04:41 PM
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It seems like you're all reading too much into my post. What I'm saying is that real, bad things can happen. Severe pain and suffering is associated with them because it helps us survive. This is a different kind of pain/suffering than the illusory type that can commonly happen with the mind. And although it is part of the whole of our existence, it is not particularly useful spiritually. In fact it tends to be extremely unhealthy and even potentially life threatening.
Things like severe illness, having body parts crushed, exposure to freezing temperatures, and wretching hangovers.
Perhaps farther along the path my view on this will change - but these seem like real important survival events, which cannot be, and are not meant to be embraced, transcended, accepted, whatever - because they're actually real. No self inquiry necessary - mind already off.
I just happened to be experiencing such an event when I saw this thread, and that was my current take on suffering.
I do also get the other variety that's all in my head, and which can seem equally bad, despite being a complete illusion. |
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SophiaUnbound
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2010 : 09:10:15 AM
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Mr. Anderson,
Sometimes suffering seems meaningless and dark while you are going through it, and then well afterwards you can see that it is transformed with some perspective. Then (on some level) you can accept it all. I believe this is so with big things like destruction of lives or little things like stomach flu. Over time, the suffering is transformed, so long as people keep seeking spiritual healing.
I say this as a combination of subjective experience and lots of spiritual reading and spiritual practices over the years. Since I was a little girl, I've had a lot of what here is called bhakti. First I used it to deepen prayer and meditation practices for 15 or so years, then when life seemed to ask me to do so, I plunged into some challenging, self-giving service. (Specifically, I adopted a half a dozen street kids and orphans when I knew it might be the end of me because of a sensitive and solitude-loving temperament.) In this case, the self-giving service actually LED TO a years-long darkness and suffering, with great unresolved griefs over what seemed the meaningless loss of some of these children I'd been "asked" to give myself to. I thought I was on the path to enlightenment, etc. etc., and then it all seemed to backfire on me and leave me in a black hole of meaningless nothing.
But I kept acting AS IF spiritual healing was available somehow, and I returned via silent meditation when I could not pray by my old methods. Now, 2 or 3 years after the darkest, most meaningless-feeling part, I'm feeling renewed Love and a new kind of peace. And I'm starting to be grateful for the suffering that went before. Though I wouldn't go looking for it again.
Even if it seems we will never emerge from suffering because there has been great destruction, there still exists hope and desire for healing love (even if we can't *feel* that hope, we can just let it *be* there). A meditation practice, I think, can help calm suffering and keep trying to get the windows and doors open for hope. Eventually, looking back over the suffering, even if it's at life's end...eventually we will see the suffering from a differnet perspective that we didn't know when we were in the throes of suffering. Then, someday, it too will have a beauty in the whole of it all.
Even little bits of suffering (like stomach flu) can give us compassion for others who seem to be in endless suffering, when seen from a different perspective.
Mr. Anderson, thank you for starting the thread. I am so grateful for this group and grateful for the renewal of "being able to feel" that there is spiritual healing...even if it is gentler, more balanced than the bursts of energetic transport I sought and favored when I was a bit younger. (And even those can still happen, though they matter less.) If going through a few years of suffering has helped me (and I now think it has), maybe it cleared a path for the deeper, more freely moving silence that is lasting joy. No doubt this cycle will happen again and again. Just when I *think* I'm making progress, life will knock me on my tush and tear away my illusions or even my spiritual practices. But when I recover, what's always left is hope, the ability to seek peace, and the love that always comes back in some form, minus some of the ego. |
Edited by - SophiaUnbound on Dec 14 2010 09:17:16 AM |
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Suffering and spiritual progress
