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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 04 2010 : 07:01:23 AM
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Am finding I'm having to really push to continue the mantra during DM. Basically, my inclination is to simply sit in silence for the 20 minutes DM part of my routine, because mentally repeating the mantra feels like it's disturbing the silence, if that makes sense.
What's the AYP point of view on this? The idea I have is that if thought arises and silence is disturbed, then I can return to mantra at that point, or simply let the thought arise and dissolve and simply sit in the stillness.
Any input?
Edited to add: my practice is asanas, 10m SBP, 20m DM (Shree Shree Ayam Ayam), 10m Samyama, and I've been doing AYP for about a year now. Recently there have been some big shifts/openings, and I'm aware of a lot of crown activity going on. The eyes are automatically moving into sambhavi, a lot of automatic breath suspension during SBP and DM, plus a marked tendency to do SBP during DM, which I correct when I become aware of it - but the temptation is strongly felt simply to go with it. In daily life, no problems - increased sensitivity definitely, but within 'acceptable bounds'
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Edited by - amoux on Nov 04 2010 07:26:47 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2010 : 08:39:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by amoux
Am finding I'm having to really push to continue the mantra during DM. Basically, my inclination is to simply sit in silence for the 20 minutes DM part of my routine, because mentally repeating the mantra feels like it's disturbing the silence, if that makes sense.
What's the AYP point of view on this? The idea I have is that if thought arises and silence is disturbed, then I can return to mantra at that point, or simply let the thought arise and dissolve and simply sit in the stillness.
Any input?
Hi Amoux,
The AYP way is, if you realize you are not on the mantra go back to it. It does not have to be at a clear mind level, you can pick it up at whatever level you are at, so it is not disturbing.
The mantra has as much to do with the process of deep meditation as the silence does. The disturbance you feel right now when you have to go back to the mantra is a form of purification. You don't have to force the mantra back, but have a slight intention of having the mantra back. Once the phase passes, you will naturally go back to the mantra.
The reason we honor the process is becasue over time meditation will change by a lot, and every time something changes, if we change with it, we are constantly changing the process, then we will never settle into the practice of meditating like brushing our teeth. Meditation is a tool we use to reach the stillness, we use the tool as it is recommended in the manual. 
Of course, we don't force anything in meditation. So for now if sitting in silence is what you feel drawn to do, do it, but keep the intention of returning to the mantra, don't make staying in silence during meditation the process.
It's like having a toothache and not wanting to brush one part of your teeth because it hurts. When the pain is gone, you still go back to brushing that part of your teeth. Similarly, keeping the intention of returning to the mantra will help you stay with the process when this phase passes.
Hope this helps. |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2010 : 09:45:29 AM
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Thanks, Shanti - that's very clear. It may be that I have been forcing the mantra a little more than simply favouring it ... and maybe I simply want to 'coast' a bit
So when the awareness of being in stillness arises, it's time to favour the mantra? Sorry if I seem a little stupid with the question - I guess somewhere in me I thought that stillness was the 'object' of the practices, but if I'm comprehending correctly, that's simply one half of the equation, and mantra will always be a part of sitting practice? |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2010 : 11:07:30 AM
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If you are aware you are in awareness you no longer are in awareness. right? Anything you are aware of, you are not. Does that make sense?
There is a point in meditation when you are in the gap, pure stillness, aware of everything, but the min you realize you are aware of everything, you no longer are, the mind has jumped in, so you very gently pick up the mantra from wherever you are. It may be just one "Shree" and you are gone again, and that is fine, but the idea is, if you are aware that you are "aware", you are not, so go back to the process.
I know it sounds confusing, but when you experience it, it is not confusing at all.
And yes, mantra is a big part of deep meditation. It is wonderful to experience the silence during meditation, and this is the goal when people do meditation for relaxation. However, when meditation is done for spirituality, the 20 min meditation is done with the purpose of purifying the nervous system so the stillness can overflow into our every day lives. If silence happens naturally, great, but it is not the goal.
In my experience, the mantra serves 3 purposes.
First, during the process of saying the mantra and losing it and then coming back to it, we learn how to let go, surrender.. By not trying to control the mantra we are un-learning our mind's need to control and in the process gently letting go/surrendering to our ishta. This is the hardest step for many, just allowing the mantra to take over.
Second thing it teaches, is to access the gap.. the silence that is really us. During meditation, the point where we realize we are off the mantra and go back to the mantra we actually touch the silence. As we continue with meditation, this gap expands and we find we were lost in the silence.. between no mantra/no thought and mantra.
Third is the vibrational qualities of the mantra purifying our nervous system as we meditate on it. Yogani explains this in Lesson 188 - Q&A – Mantra Design 101. The mantra will slowly break down the obstructions and hence purify the nervous system and allow us to enjoy the silence in our every day life. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2010 : 11:32:42 AM
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Hi amoux
quote:
So when the awareness of being in stillness arises, it's time to favour the mantra? Sorry if I seem a little stupid with the question - I guess somewhere in me I thought that stillness was the 'object' of the practices, but if I'm comprehending correctly, that's simply one half of the equation, and mantra will always be a part of sitting practice?
Any time anything is seen or perceived as an object - in other words, if we notice that we are "in stillness" there is still a subtle perception of something - even though this object is very still and maybe boarderless. The deepest stillness is before this even. Here the noticing of "being in stillness" will not happen, there will be no perception of any object (no matter how subtle) - we will only notice when we "come back from it" - and that is when we repeat the mantra.
When in meditation .....there can be long periods without any thoughts or emotions or sensations.....but consciousness can still perceive on more subtle levels - "space"...."expandedness"...."peace" ....."stillness" ....etc. The instant we notice anything in particular - that is when we repeat the mantra.
In my experience awareness is aware of awareness. But it doesn't end here. The depth of inner silence is endless - and in Deep Meditation we do not want to limit the ever deepening by "finding a safe perth" where the mind can "hang out". No matter how beautiful or subtle or still it is - it is still a perception. And the unfathomable is beyond this. So we always come back to the mantra when we notice we are off it - no matter where we have been.
The potential of rising inner silence is endless.
Between meditations - as in meditation - the result of this will be more and more spontaneous meditation - what you call "awareness of being in stillness".
Outside meditation we can enjoy it all we like |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2010 : 11:34:27 AM
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We cross posted Shanti
Great post |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2010 : 12:37:23 PM
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| Two great posts Thank you both. |
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AlanCrawfordUK
United Kingdom
24 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 4:32:43 PM
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Sorry if I misunderstand, but I don't understand: "If you are aware you are in awareness you no longer are in awareness". This contradicts what Eckhart Tolle seems to suggest, i.e. by being aware that you are not present / in the now / that your mind has drifted, this very awareness makes you present as the witness. Am I on the track with my understanding of this?
I also always thought that stillness / the gap was the object of meditation - and therefore that the ultimate meditation is what some schools of Buddhism call a "formless" meditation, i.e., given sufficient experience of breathing meditation to find, then extend the gaps between thoughts, you drop the breath (or the mantra for that matter) as an object and the stillness / silence / emptiness itself becomes the object of meditation. If you can get to that stage of meditation, isn't the mantra just an unnecessary tool that can be dropped?
Wishing you peace and happiness,
Alan |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 5:49:19 PM
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Hi Alan,
By using the mantra you are able to reach deeper levels of meditation and make greater pogress than simply using the breath.In order to get to the stillness/gap can often take a long time so for many dropping the mantra is an option that can be some way away.I have been most fortunate in that when I originally practiced TM in 1976 I experienced deep levels of stillness immediately for 2 weeks and then I experienced deep levels of cleansing which was not pleasant at all.During these times maintaining the mantra was difficult but mostly at other times (during the stillness) it was easy to reach deep levels using the mantra.One thing I have found important to make good progress is to maintain the correct breathing at all times.This takes practice but will enhance ones health and practices.By breathing correctly(diaphragm/through the nose)automatically it becomes easy to enter deep levels in a short time and with no clunkiness by using a mantra. Not sure if I have made anything clearer but I hope it helps.Incidentally I would advise all to ensure they breath correctly during daily life and not simply when meditating, as it makes a big difference in my experience in sadhana, health and fitness.
L&L
Dave |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 7:24:13 PM
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The question is very important and often misunderstood.
The silence you are experiencing inbetween is not absolute. It is relative silence. But this relative silence can be used as a door to more refined perception. Ater having observed thee refined perceptions you will be able to perceive even more refined gaps of silence inbetween...and it goes on and on..
So this is just another way to deepen into infinite silent bliss. Movement and nonmovement(silence) is seen as one when endlessly refined.
A mantra does the same, even though it is a little bit different. The mantra itself moves the one same substance of being in a special way and effects the body-mind-complex in a way leading to a different type of functioning of the brain and nervous system. You can find more in the mantra-design lesson of Yogani.
Perhaps you have observed that you can stay in the gap between thoughts while having your attention on a specific point in your body. For example on a chakra or somewhere else. So being in the gap refines the awareness of that spot. If you have no spot, than it is mostly somewhere in the headspace. The headspace is associated with important brainparts and the 6th chkra in general which leads to sef-realization too.
If you remain in silence while having your attention at the rootchakra, don't be surprised if you start perceiving more and more things there. Not that they were not there before. The whole universe, all time spaces are already in this moment. You are just not aware of all.
The aim of going into silence, deeper and deeper is to touch that infinite refinement of silence merging with movement where both are seen as one including you and the whole universe.
There are many methods, many systems and not everything is working for everyone in any time. Some are more aggressive (e.g. mantra) and some are less (e.g. watch the gap / breath) but both lead to the same.
There was an incident, where a great tibetan monk came to a realized very famous tibetan master and told him: "I can remain in thoughtless samadhi for one week without interruption, without getting up of the meditation position." The great master replyed: "Your type of meditation can't compete with my inner fire!"
Back then, this confused me too :). Inner fire is a visualization type meditation within the centralchannel, so why was the master so sure? The reason is, being in thoughtless state or silence just means, you are somewhere within a dark tunnel. It doesn't mean you have touched the core or "the deepest level of yourself" (as Eckart Tolle would say).
In another thread someone asked the same. Why not remaining in that silence. Yogani replied: continue with the mantra..
I think this point is not very clear in the lessons and could be covered with more detail and care by him. (or I have forgotten a lesson? =P)
There is another man (like him very much :), who has a site named: www.kriyayoga.com . He himself practiced kriya yoga for 5 years and reached nirvikalpa samadhi. After repeated godunion he started to make the site. Here is his explanation of meditation in general and somewhere in the middle he also says something about this topic:
quote:
Some spiritual traditions practice meditation by concentrating on emptiness. This is quite difficult, because there is no emptiness in the entire creation. So these person applying successfully this method often are hanging between two centers of consciousness, i.e. between physical and astral body, being neither in physical nor in astral body. Or between astral and causal body, again being neither in astral nor in causal body.
When it comes to my own experience, remaining in silent awareness was always nr.1 in all aspects. But it also took a lot of time + ended in inbalance and physical health probs over the longterm.
The best answer is practically trying out both or all variations for some specified duration (e.g. 1-2 months) and then knowing for oneself. The other way would be: reading lots of reviews and then trusting. I always chose the first. Not the fastest, but the surest =P |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2010 : 10:34:44 PM
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quote:
Any time anything is seen or perceived as an object - in other words, if we notice that we are "in stillness" there is still a subtle perception of something - even though this object is very still and maybe boarderless. The deepest stillness is before this even. Here the noticing of "being in stillness" will not happen, there will be no perception of any object (no matter how subtle) - we will only notice when we "come back from it" - and that is when we repeat the mantra.
Thanks for sharing this perspective Katrine |
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Silence -v- Mantra
