| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 07 2010 : 11:36:42 AM
|
Namaste my AYP Brothers and Sisters 
I've been thinking about starting this thread for a very long time now but have never been able to find the right words for what I wanted to express. But last night as I lay in bed falling asleep, the words came to me and I am excited to finally be able to (hopefully) begin some dialogue on this topic.
For about a decade before I "found yoga", my main spiritual practice (how I found Truth) was through "dialectic conversation". This is a practice I first heard about when I read the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" at around the age of 15. Basically this is a "back and forth"/"cross-examination" style of conversation in which one person makes a statement and the other either agrees or disagrees and takes the statement one step further...each person going one step further from the last statement until both parties arrive at an agreed upon understanding or truth.
So....Basically, I have a personality that loves to argue/converse it's way to truth.  This personality trait has certainly taken more and more of a backseat as I become more grounded in inner silence, but there is still a serious love for communicating and trying to arrive at Truth through conversation.
What I have noticed as I continue with both my twice daily yoga practices and engaging in dialectic conversation during the day, is that the Truth that is arrived at 90% of the time through conversation, now ends up being Silence. This never used to happen before when my sole spiritual practice was dialectic conversation. Usually the Truth arrived at before was a simple statement of "fact" that both parties could agree upon. Now what I am finding, is that the Truth that is arrived at through conversation, is Silence. Both parties eventually talk ourselves to Silence. This seems incredibly odd to me. And incredibly fantastic as well. All roads really do seem to lead "Home" (aka Silence). I have become increasingly aware over the past two and a half years of yoga practice/dialectic conversation, that words are not Truth....but that words can lead to finding Truth within....that words can indeed bring one to Silence. For a period of time recently, perhaps about 5 or 6, maybe even 7 months, I have had very little desire to engage in conversation...not just dialectic conversation, but conversation period. I was enjoying just being silent...something that was quite new to me. But I seem to have come full circle recently. I am now finding myself really enjoying every conversation I have, even moreso then before, and I am finding that dialectic conversation almost always leads both parties back home to Silence.
This is a bit difficult to put words to, as you can perhaps see from my babbling above,  but I wanted to try anyways. I don't really have any question with this thread, I guess it is more of a statement, more of a "here is something interesting I have found".... That something being that "conversation can indeed be a vehicle to Truth....conversation can indeed bring one home to Silence." A bit of a paradox
Love!
 |
|
|
cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2010 : 2:40:53 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Namaste my AYP Brothers and Sisters
Namaste, AYP sibling
Thanks for starting this topic, bro.
Not sure what you mean by "dialectic" conversation, but conversation can indeed lead to Truth (Silence). Years ago, I took a bunch of seminars called the Landmark Forum, which was a form of Socratic dialogue (basically group self-inquiry). It was transformational for sure.
It involved getting really clear about the stories about our past we take as truth, seeing that they are actually just stories. This was accomplished by altering they way we speak, to remove personal bias.
For example, we might have a story like "Dad abandoned us when I was five". Through conversation, we might see the word "abandoned" as being story/opinion/bias, and obviously emotionally charged. We eventually get to a point where it becomes "My parents stopped living together when I was five", which is closer to reality and not nearly as painful as the original statement.
It's really powerful when you apply it to every story in your life. You start to see that the negative events in your life were not personal, and you can let them go.
Is dialectic conversation anything like this?
May this thread lead us all into Silence together
Love
cosmic |
 |
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2010 : 12:37:04 PM
|
Hey Cosmic
quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
Not sure what you mean by "dialectic" conversation, but conversation can indeed lead to Truth (Silence). Years ago, I took a bunch of seminars called the Landmark Forum, which was a form of Socratic dialogue (basically group self-inquiry). It was transformational for sure.
Here is a link that describes a bit about what is involved in dialectic conversation: http://www.rhetcomp.gsu.edu/efolio/...io/plato.doc
quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
It involved getting really clear about the stories about our past we take as truth, seeing that they are actually just stories. This was accomplished by altering they way we speak, to remove personal bias.
Yes, pretty similar. In dialectic conversation one is not trying to convince anyone of anything. No stories. Dialectic conversation is all about trying to find Truth through skillful discussion.
From the link I posted: "dialectic requires an honest person who holds truth in such a high regard that it weighs more heavily in his life than his ego"...meaning the discussion has nothing to do with trying to "be right" and everything to do with finding Truth. I'm just finding it funny that before yoga the Truth that was found through dialectic discussion was something much different then what is found after yoga.... Now Truth is Silence, before, Truth was words/statements/definitions. I like the "new Truth" much better
Love!
|
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2010 : 10:23:15 AM
|
I am waiting for you CarsonZi or Cosmic to continue with this conversation.....
I can throw one out similar to the other statement that was set as the example...although at this moment it is not really agitating me....
I can't imagine how many times my one parent has talked down about my other parent (mother about father)--
thru the duration of my lifetime..including and not limited to something from yesterday that my father participates in helping lazy people(running their errands, doing good deeds, running the church food bank)
for years I bought into this..and I think I have a strong dislike of men in genreal...
the fact of this matter is that genetically and personallity I have turned out to be much more like my father---
what if somethingis painful ongoing?
I can sort of distance myself from it by just thinking that things are the way they are....
what can I do inside my self and inside my thinking...
is I just mush it all together that we just all are.
thats it for now-
someone else can do an example-
I just wanted to get the ball rolling...safely.. |
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2010 : 10:15:12 AM
|
there is a sense of embarassment and I am thinking that I am not trying to be forceful or demanding, here.
I was curious about seeing the dialectic conversation transpire.
I will be more patient and see what comes of this.....from others.
|
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2010 : 10:55:55 AM
|
Hey Sage....I only have a second so this will be short. Just wanted to say that I am not ignoring you...I just don't do much on the computer on the weekends (this is also the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend so things are especially busy right now)...I usually just "check in" as I don't have time to write posts most weekends. Will respond in full on Tuesday when things are back to a normal schedule.
Love!
|
|
|
|
cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2010 : 1:49:13 PM
|
Hi sage
If you're suggesting we make this thread into a dialectic conversation, I'm game. But I'd have to see an example first, or maybe have Carson get it rolling.
The Plato document was informative, but it's still just conceptual for me at this point.
Love
cosmic |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2010 : 1:11:24 PM
|
In order to have dialectic conversation begin, one of us just needs to come up with a question like; "What is Courage?" or something like that. I've been trying to come up with a good one, but I just don't have any questions right now .
Love!
|
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2010 : 1:35:52 PM
|
courage is an idea or a way of acting when you are experiencing fear...usually fight or flight is what is happening with the parasympathetic nervous system, that we must identify with....
so I hear a load noise in the basement and it is late and dark outside and I have a dim flashlight and have to go out to get into the basement to check on the noise....I am at the edge of peeing my pants and I am perusing options like is it a skunk, racoon, and intruder, etc. etc.?
courage says- you have to get you S shoes on and go see what to do about it.
courage is allowing information IN
when it is uncomfortable to what we are conditioned to....
and courage is not using the information we have to comfort ourselves |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2010 : 1:45:18 PM
|
Hi sage
Part of "dialectic conversation" is putting what you want to say (in this instance about what courage is) into a single statement. Multiple sentences begins to border on rhetorical conversation, or trying to "sway someone's opinion". Dialectic conversation has as little opinion as possible to begin with, and what little there is is weeded out through the process of conversation. Does this make things a little clearer?
Love!
|
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2010 : 1:51:34 PM
|
courage is hanging in there, when there is an easier way out.
courage is seeing someone not wanting to have a dialectic conversation and are referencing a didactic one instead...and KNOWING that in your heart that you made morally wrong choices and have to continue to face it. |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2010 : 2:00:30 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sage890
courage is hanging in there, when there is an easier way out.
Is that courage or is that being stubborn?
Love!
P.S. Now you would take my above statement and refute it, taking it to the next level....and I would do the same with your next statement....and on and on and on until we come to an agreement on what courage is. Make sense? |
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2010 : 2:24:41 PM
|
I notice stubborn in myself alot.
use the sample, about going to the basement...
is that what courage is?
stubborn looks like....not wanting to clean the basement out....
instead of experiencing fear of unknown sound and HAVING to go check it out,...
or we could use the example hiking camping in the woods alone.....one has to have courage.
you only extracted one sentence/statement....
..."hanging in there when there is an easier way"...I am refering to my own feeling(which I would not act on) and it is suicial.
I have my child to live for in the end...he keeps me hanging on.
and not the whole pie of the experience of going to the basement ...in the middle of the night after a noise.
Anyone can change this conversation to their own life....or chime in with what they think courage is....
I will try to whittle the thoughts...for simplicity.
|
|
|
|
cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2010 : 5:13:40 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
"What is Courage?"
I know it was just an example, but I'll play with it:
Courage is the willingness to act, without giving consideration to fear. |
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2010 : 8:49:59 PM
|
so, that is much different from the way I view it(which is gooda)
without consideration of fear....
so you are driving down the street and see that someone is in a lake and it looks as though they are drowning ....and you just jump in and get them...
so do you think that courage is the absence of fear OR just without considering fear?
can you exhibit courage with fear present?
or the choice is happening so quickly to act that there are just no considerations for any other thoughts? |
|
|
|
cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 12:16:46 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sage890
so do you think that courage is the absence of fear OR just without considering fear?
Not the absence of fear, but the will to act in spite of fear. "Feel the fear, then do it anyways" - not sure who said that.
quote:
Originally posted by sage890
can you exhibit courage with fear present?
I believe so. But this raises another question:
Can you exhibit courage without fear?
ex: You have absolutely no fear about jumping in the lake to save the drowning person. You do it easily. Since fear was no obstacle to be overcome, was the act courageous? |
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 10:19:02 PM
|
yes!!
considering there are e.coli, leeches, salt water crocs, and poisonous snakes in the water!! |
|
|
|
cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2010 : 5:48:24 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sage890
yes!!
considering there are e.coli, leeches, salt water crocs, and poisonous snakes in the water!!
LOL great answer
How about this:
Courage is the unconditional will to act. |
|
|
|
sagebrush
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2010 : 7:16:37 PM
|
courage is to act unconditionally....
is the will word necessary...
|
|
|
|
cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2010 : 11:38:47 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sage890
courage is to act unconditionally....
is the will word necessary...
No, I agree it's unnecessary. Sounds good to me!
Thanks for playing, sage |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Conversation as a Vehicle to Truth
