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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 02 2010 : 11:10:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
There is no death and no life. Both are illusions. This is impossible to understand intellectually but you can get a sense of it from the position of dreamless sleep.
How can you get a sense of anything from the dreamless sleep? By it's nature, you can't get any sense from dreamless deep sleep. Even though, it is said that in deep sleep we are in the same state as Turiya, the awareness is missing.
I think the intellect can only get a sense of the concept, "There is no death and no life. Both are illusions." in the awaken state (jagrad).
Only in the awaken (jagrad) state we are even aware of the existence of the other states of consciousness (dream, deep sleep). When the consciousness is in the states other than the awaken state, for instance in dream or deep sleep, it is not even aware of the existence of multiple states of existence. From the dream world we are not even aware of the existence of jagrad or the awakened state of consciousness. The same goes for the deep sleep also. This is pointed out by Shankara on his commentary on Mandukya Upanishad.
So, I think, the 'sense' and the 'practical experience' of illusion must happen in the 'awaken state' (jagrad) to solve this puzzle.
Regards,
Ram |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2010 : 06:44:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
PS: Death is another change in the state of consciousness. We retain our impressions.
So what impressions did you retain?
The one's that I am living now.
Are you sure these are your impressions?
Or do they belong to the one who is dreaming himself to be Ram in this birth, and dreamt to be someone else in the past?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2010 : 08:02:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
quote:
Originally posted by karl
There is no death and no life. Both are illusions. This is impossible to understand intellectually but you can get a sense of it from the position of dreamless sleep.
How can you get a sense of anything from the dreamless sleep? By it's nature, you can't get any sense from dreamless deep sleep. Even though, it is said that in deep sleep we are in the same state as Turiya, the awareness is missing.
I think the intellect can only get a sense of the concept, "There is no death and no life. Both are illusions." in the awaken state (jagrad).
Only in the awaken (jagrad) state we are even aware of the existence of the other states of consciousness (dream, deep sleep). When the consciousness is in the states other than the awaken state, for instance in dream or deep sleep, it is not even aware of the existence of multiple states of existence. From the dream world we are not even aware of the existence of jagrad or the awakened state of consciousness. The same goes for the deep sleep also. This is pointed out by Shankara on his commentary on Mandukya Upanishad.
So, I think, the 'sense' and the 'practical experience' of illusion must happen in the 'awaken state' (jagrad) to solve this puzzle.
Regards,
Ram
Both sides of the same coin. From the state of deep sleep we imagine the state of consciousness into being. We oscillate between the two. We must be aware of a conscious state from a state of death/deep sleep otherwise we could not manifest, in the same way as we are aware of a state of none existence from a conscious state.
In either state both are incomprehensible but known to exist. The awakened conscious state only seems more real because you are in that particular state, this is no difference to the deep sleep/death state where all is how it should be.
It is not an intellectual excersise because we are too limited for that. We are not the whole or the part, both and neither. You experience this during meditation, or at least a sense of it where neither one state or another exists, just shifting states in a timeless realm. |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2010 : 10:09:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
There is no contradiction.
Sankra is saying it while being still.
Krishna is saying it while dancing.
Carlson, Christi, - So true: Well said.
I am reminded of the 10 Zen Oxherder pictures.
We start in the marketplace,
We find stillness
We return to the marketplace.
Stillness, Emptiness, are experienced at the beginning of enlightenment. Our true nature is seen as that. Slowly, that is also seen to be this, and Unity follows.
Even so, these are still just generalities, because that is seen to be this, even in the beginning, but differently than later. I have found as a general rule, that the more inclusive the sutra, the more matured the writer.
Namaste |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2010 : 04:34:57 AM
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Hi Buddhihermit,
Thanks for that.
Hi all,
For anyone who is interested, here are some of the essential verses from the Gita where Krishna talks about his existance as both Sat and Asat (the Created and the Uncreated). It comes from verses 45 to 75 of chapter 9 of the Gita and is Krishna speaking to Arjuna:
quote:
The minds untaught mistake Me, veiled in form;—
Naught see they of My secret Presence, nought
Of My hid Nature, ruling all which lives.
Vain hopes pursuing, vain deeds doing; fed
On vainest knowledge, senselessly they seek
An evil way, the way of brutes and fiends.
But My Mahatmas, those of noble soul
Who tread the path celestial, worship Me
With hearts unwandering,—knowing Me the Source,
Th’ Eternal Source, of Life. Unendingly
They glorify Me; seek Me; keep their vows
Of reverence and love, with changeless faith
Adoring Me. Yea, and those too adore,
Who, offering sacrifice of wakened hearts,
Have sense of one pervading Spirit’s stress,
One Force in every place, though manifold!
I am the Sacrifice! I am the Prayer!
I am the Funeral-Cake set for the dead!
I am the healing herb! I am the ghee,
The Mantra, and the flame, and that which burns!
I am—of all this boundless Universe—
The Father, Mother, Ancestor, and Guard!
The end of Learning! That which purifies
In lustral water! I am OM! I am
Rig-Veda, Sama-Veda, Yajur-Ved;
The Way, the Fosterer, the Lord, the Judge,
The Witness; the Abode, the Refuge-House,
The Friend, the Fountain and the Sea of Life
Which sends, and swallows up; Treasure of Worlds
And Treasure-Chamber! Seed and Seed-Sower,
Whence endless harvests spring! Sun’s heat is mine;
Heaven’s rain is mine to grant or to withhold;
Death am I, and Immortal Life I am,
Arjuna! SAT and ASAT, Visible Life,
And Life Invisible!
Christi |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Dec 25 2010 : 06:13:06 AM
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| interesting,i think adi shankara is talking about shiva the consciousness and the krishna gita is related to the manifestations of the consciousness everything emanated and manifests from consciousness.but the pure true state is just the self devoid of anything, nothing but it.shivoham |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2012 : 03:11:09 AM
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quote:
Are you sure these are your impressions?
Or do they belong to the one who is dreaming himself to be Ram in this birth, and dreamt to be someone else in the past?
Who is asking these questions? Who is the Questioner? |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 11:11:33 PM
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I don't see any contradictions.
In Chapter of Gita, the Opulence of the Absolute,
Krishna says he is Shark, himalayas, sama veda, punishment etc...
Krishna explains at times how he is the Self from where every thing originates, at times, how he is the different players of the world.
It is done for convenience and easier understanding.
Is it a contradiction within the Gita that Krishna is the Self, but also the elements?
No it's not.
I suggest you getting Yoga Vasistha by Arun Mandhava.
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sivasambho
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2012 : 10:22:23 PM
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| If we are seeking truth, we cant be seeking a balanced perspective, that is simply not right. But if we are content with something more socially appropriate, then I guess that is ok. But Adi shankaracharya is not to be blamed for embracing truth at such an young age, while krishna chose to play a different game in the world. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2012 : 4:56:56 PM
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quote:
In Advaita as in the Vedanta of the Upanishads, the existence of this manifested world (Prakriti) itself is denied. The manifested world (Prakriti) that we perceive as real, is many times compared to the dreams that appear and disappear in the state of sleep. The Prakriti or manifested world is completely denied as non-existent in advaita and vedanta, if I understand it right. It is said that the manifested world is projected by our senses, similar to how our mind can project the dream worlds while we sleep. We easily understand that the dream world did not exist - after we wake up - and was just a projection of our mind. But to understand that the manifested world (Prakriti) is also a dream experienced or projected through the senses and to wake up from that dream is explained as enlightenment in the upanishads. So, Shankara claims he is none of the aspects of the Prakriti or the manifested world (since Prakriti or the manifested world that we see as real did/does not exist in the first place!) So, there remains only ONE who is the Purusha.
Dear rkishan:
Thanks for bringing up this question.
I hope you would agree that Brahman is eternal and this Prakriti is perishable although Brahman himself is present as Prakriti. Anything that is perishable is considered to be non-real according to Upanishads. So, if you see from this point of view the Prakriti is non-real. The dream world which seems to be as much real as that of this phenomenal world when we dream, disappears instantaneously when we wake up. Similarly, this world that we see in front of our eye will disappear for an enlightened’s janna-eye. He sees Brahman alone, everywhere. The entire moveable and the immoveable of this universe will look as Brahman without a second. This phenomenal world will disappear for an enlightened the way the dream world disappears for us when he goes to the 4th state. So in other words this phenomenal world is as much real as that of dream world.
So, you can ask why that revelation felt in the 4th state has to be true… and why not the sensual perception of this phenomenal world in the normal conscious….right? We know that the dream world exists for a short time as compared to this phenomenal world…The duration of the dream world that is projected by our Atman is comparatively non-significant in front of this phenomenal world that is projected by Paramatman. Similarly the duration this phenomenal world exists is non-significant if you compare the duration the Brahman exists. Like many billion years Vs eternal. Because of the short-lived nature of the dream world we do not feel the dream world as real. Similarly because of the short lived nature of the phenomenal world Upanishads feel that this phenomenal world is non-real. So, what is real…? The Brahman, which is eternal and the enlightened Who is in union with Brahman in Samadhi.
I hope this helps you to understand... |
Edited by - showup on Sep 20 2012 6:26:42 PM |
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Adi Shankara's Nirvanashatkam & Gita contradiction
