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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 16 2010 : 7:54:44 PM
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Namaste All 
As I believe I have mentioned in a few posts recently, I am going through a fairly intense period of (mostly automatic) inquiry. I wanted to share one of the things that I have recently been finding myself inquiring into in hopes of possibly getting some feedback.
I have recently come to realize that, for me, there is a very fine line between honesty and ego. I have, for quite a while now, somewhat prided myself on my ability to be (sometimes too) honest about myself with pretty much anyone. What awareness has recently brought to my attention is that the ego is very well masked in this "endeavor" to be honest about myself. I now understand that Silence is often a more appropriate response then to speak about oneself, no matter how honest the words are. I guess this post could perhaps even be an example of what I am talking about. It's all ego.
Love!
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2010 : 12:44:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
It's all ego.
There is no ego, there is no honesty.
You are always free, always silent.  |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2010 : 10:17:15 AM
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Hi Manigma
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
It's all ego.
There is no ego, there is no honesty.
You are always free, always silent.
The "I" underneath, the "I" that permeates All, is always free and silent, yes. BUT, there IS ego. To deny this is (IMO) to do oneself a disservice (at least for me). Like trying to live a fantasy. If there is ego here, then there is ego here. At least until there isn't anymore. And in my experience, the ego is a tricky little bastard. He likes to hide in the most subtle places. The places that we often "gloss over" when trying to find and oust it. For me, to take the position that "there is no ego" would only lead "me" (read: the conditioned me) to allow the ego to strengthen it's hold in everyday life. At this point, I feel it is crucial for me to continue to peer into all the dark corners in search of remaining ego identification. I seem to be finding lots, so to say that "there is no ego" would be a lie. I understand that "ultimately" there is no ego, and no honesty, but in this current "reality", there certainly is ego, and it is as real as anything else. 
Love!
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2010 : 11:21:11 AM
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| Hey Carson, the fact that you know there is ego is enough... it will fall away in time with our regular practices (including some self inquiry). When you shed light on the ego it has nowhere to hide and soon falls away.. it hides and grows with ignorance and/or denial. |
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swaha
Lebanon
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2010 : 1:15:32 PM
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hello Carson :)
i am in the same "peer into all the dark corners" thing!
and, without being obsessed or fanatic about it, i try to focus on
the gaps, the emptiness between all those "egos" situations/recognitions..
each time i catch myself having the urge to "share" or "talk", i try to take a step back, and watch this urge..
99% of the time, i can remain silent..
just my being is enough.. no need to talk.
Who said that the other person needs to hear what u gotta say?
when there is overwhelming love, there is silence..
and in this bliss, u automatically become contagious..
there is no more "u" indeed..
and only then, ego drops.
whenever there is joy, laughter, ecstasy, ego is bound to shrink and/or drop..
(f) |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 01:22:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I understand that "ultimately" there is no ego, and no honesty, but in this current "reality", there certainly is ego, and it is as real as anything else.
Meditate.
So the Light within you (that is your very nature) starts illuminating.
The ego covers it like a mask.
Meditate.
Silence is the very fuel that will bring forward this Light within you and burn all the false masks you been wearing.
At the moment all you say is sleep talk. You have heard about silence and think you know what it is. This is not going to help.
Meditate. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 04:41:24 AM
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Hi Carson
quote:
I now understand that Silence is often a more appropriate response then to speak about oneself, no matter how honest the words are
I agree with you there. In the practical reality of engaging with people and the environment there has to be discernment, in this case discernment about whether to be silent or not, or whether to speak about one's own personal story or about a general principle(impersonal).
If one looks at the established teachers, they don't go around, in general, talking about their own stories all the time, but maybe throw in the odd one when appropriate.
Also, when being very honest about oneself to others it may be just "too much info" and like "we don't want to hear all that about you, thanks very much".
Or it can be a way of "teaching" a point to someone in the pretense that "I am talking out of my own experience, therefore it's ok". Whereas in actual fact there is a good possibility that I will come across as patronizing.
These are some examples that come to mind, I'm sure there are many more.
Are we on the same page?
L&L |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 05:46:17 AM
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Sometimes I feel like there is an imagining, or an engrossing dreaming of a someone who can say something or do something either right or wrong. And there is the experience that something that seems to be said or done wrong causes an energetic discomfort. But also something seen as being said or done right by the dream of a someone can be equally discomforting energetically.
Maybe silence isn't not saying or doing something. Maybe silence is the Self that is always beyond the dreaming of a someone doing something either right or wrong. The rest is just what appears to be always happening, but never really remains in any permanent or constant energetic form at all. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 11:33:21 AM
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Namaste Everyone and thank you for all the great input!
@Shanti: Thanks for the encouragement. There seems to be no end to the ego here, but (of course) I will continue to do my practices and will continue to seek out the hiding place of the ego, shining light in every corner I can find.
@Swaha: I agree with everything you said. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience with me _/\_
@Manigma: quote:
Meditate
Don't worry, plenty o' that happening over here. Twice daily meditations (and pranayama {with all mudras/bandhas/and kumbhaka etc} and asana and samyama and more ) everyday for over two years now. I even have three practices three times a week (those are the days when I teach AYP...I always practice alongside the students).
Believe it or not (doesn't matter to me), but I do "Know" Silence, despite the "sleep talk" . I have a "silent core" that is known as "The Self" and it is pretty unwavering now, but that doesn't change the reality that there is still ego hiding in all sorts of corners of the mind and that I keep finding more the more I look for it.
@Sparkle: We are on the exact same page. What you said is exactly what I am talking about. When you say: "when being very honest about oneself to others it may be just "too much info" and like "we don't want to hear all that about you, thanks very much"." you hit what I am feeling right on the head. I have felt in the past that being honest about oneself with others is essentially synonymous with "being open"....now, I am starting to realize that this is more of an "ego strategy" then anything. Something that has been being used here as a way to help keep the ego intact and in control. Does that make any sense?
@Balance: I totally agree with all you have said. But there still seems to be a tendency here to "feel special" or perhaps I could just say "feel individual", "feel different/superior/smart/etc". I guess essentially it isn't so much about what is actually said or done, but more about my thoughts (and the belief of these thoughts) in regards to what is said or done "by me". There is still some deep attachments to "who I think I am" that need to be let go of I guess.
Thanks everyone for the help _/\_
Love!
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 12:13:38 PM
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quote:
@Balance: I totally agree with all you have said. But there still seems to be a tendency here to "feel special" or perhaps I could just say "feel individual", "feel different/superior/smart/etc". I guess essentially it isn't so much about what is actually said or done, but more about my thoughts (and the belief of these thoughts) in regards to what is said or done "by me". There is still some deep attachments to "who I think I am" that need to be let go of I guess.
Hi CarsonZi, and well said. I too continue such tendencies. The "Who I think I am" though is very much seen through, and more so as time passes (or should I say the more that "time" is seen to only exist as being. Time is Being, and that leaves less room for any illusory phantoms to linger). When inquiry happens, pretty much all the time now, and very naturally, it opens into an unknowable fathomless-ness, and there is nothing for deep attachments to exist, let alone abide. But I also "know" that there are still very subtle attachments even though they are hardly perceptible, and that they are reflected as this karma in which I still wander as if in a house of many seemingly skillful and mysterious mirrors.
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Edited by - Balance on Aug 18 2010 12:15:08 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 12:58:02 PM
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Hi Balance
I think for me, the problem is that "I" still somewhat ENJOY letting myself get attached to these ideas that I am "____insert label here____". I am also thoroughly enjoying though (in an almost sadistic way) allowing Life to reflect all these areas that the ego is still hiding in. It pains the ego to have the light shone on it, but it feels liberating for "me" (the unconditioned "me") as well.
Love!
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 1:31:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
@Manigma: quote:
Meditate
Don't worry, plenty o' that happening over here. Twice daily meditations (and pranayama {with all mudras/bandhas/and kumbhaka etc} and asana and samyama and more ) everyday for over two years now. I even have three practices three times a week (those are the days when I teach AYP...I always practice alongside the students).
Believe it or not (doesn't matter to me), but I do "Know" Silence, despite the "sleep talk" . I have a "silent core" that is known as "The Self" and it is pretty unwavering now, but that doesn't change the reality that there is still ego hiding in all sorts of corners of the mind and that I keep finding more the more I look for it.
http://www.balbro.com/iam/chiyono.htm
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 1:53:17 PM
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I had a good laugh at this posting. I recognise myself in exactly the same way. Often I hear myself say things while at the same time rolling my eyes in disbelief. Why does anyone need to know that I think ? Why am I constructing that web of credibility ? I finish a conversation and shake my head at what has just spewed forth from my mouth. Of course it's a true account, but who am I trying to convince. I can't help just laughing at how pathetic it is
I know it is a weakness, I know it is something that I do, even if I know that I should just close the mouth up, it's arrogant and opinionated. I write it and speak it and accept I do so even though I know it's just a thin veneer, an overcoat of plausibility to account for the projected image, to make real what is false.
It's like a computer program continually running itself to establish a world and a character to populate it, not knowing that it is really one and the same while the program runs, it does not even know why it runs.
Before I started AYP I was also interested in identifying and removing the ego. One of my NLP therapist colleagues asked what would I gain if I removed the ego. The way it was asked left me with a powerful vision which persisted for days and ended up with me finding AYP. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 2:11:59 PM
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In Yogani's recently posted lesson 426: http://www.aypsite.org/426.html he says; "A few are born to become enlightened in this life, while for the rest of us it may be only a possibility."
This line is partially to blame for the inquiry recently spawned here. I have felt since I first became aware of being human (at the age of 3) that I was "different", "special", destined for "greatness", however one may desire to phrase this..... this has both haunted and elated me my entire life. Reading the quoted line above brought me back to these thoughts, wondering if I have always felt as I do, because I am destined for enlightenment in this lifetime. Since finding AYP and starting the practices, I have believed that there is no possible way that I could stay unenlightened for the rest of my life. That I will, without a doubt, be enlightened before the end of this life. Is this just more ego? Is this feeling of inevitable enlightenment just my ego finding yet another crevice to hide in? Or is it true? Was I born to become enlightened in this lifetime? How could I ever know if it is ego or if it is intuition?
Love!
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yogani
USA
5245 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 2:39:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
In Yogani's recently posted lesson 426: http://www.aypsite.org/426.html he says; "A few are born to become enlightened in this life, while for the rest of us it may be only a possibility."
Hi Carson and All:
The most important part of that quote is what comes right after. For context, here is the whole thing:
quote:
A few are born to become enlightened in this life, while for the rest of us it may be only a possibility. Yet, for all of us the possibility is clearly there, and that is very significant. Where there is the possibility, there will be ways that can be devised to bring it into manifestation. It is a matter of having good tools available, and having the desire and willingness to put forth the effort toward the goal through daily practice.
So we are all special, and we live in a time when many more of us have the opportunity to live the fullness of enlightenment in this life. It is a matter of having the technology, and the willingness to use it to its full capacity.
In the old days, it was primarily those born ripe who fell off the tree. Now we all can. It is in our hands.
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 2:44:26 PM
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So...... just ego
Thanks Yogani
Love!
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yogani
USA
5245 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 3:08:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
So...... just ego
Thanks Yogani
Love!
Hi Carson:
The ego can be very useful.
Who else would be sawing that limb, sitting on the part that will fall, if not the ego?
The guru is in you.
PS: For those who might worry about this, the fall is into infinite peace and happiness.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 3:20:29 PM
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Hi Yogani
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The ego can be very useful.
Useful for cutting off it's own head???
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Who else would be sawing that limb, sitting on the part that will fall, if not the ego?
Silence? The Universe? Is it really the ego that is doing the (un)doing?
(in case it isn't obvious, I'm actually asking these questions.... these aren't meant as rhetorical questions)
Isn't this like trying to solve "mind problems" with the mind?
Love!
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 4:02:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
but that doesn't change the reality that there is still ego hiding in all sorts of corners of the mind and that I keep finding more the more I look for it.
Carson - if you re-read this, particularly the phrase I have bolded, there's your answer If it is accepted that the ego is an illusion, then you're trying to eliminate a mirage. As you note in a later post, it's a wonderful strategy to keep you seeking ...
Much love |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 4:14:40 PM
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Hi Amoux
I guess I have to figure out whether the ego is an illusion or not then don't I?
I guess I don't really know about all this "illusion/maya" stuff/talk. From one perspective, everything is illusion. But from another perspective, everything is as real as everything else (whether that is not at all real or completely real). I guess, in this moment, I am seeing everything as "part of the same One". Even illusion. I guess I am trying not to deny the reality of anything these days. Treating everything as as real as everything else in hopes of not "glossing over" anything that needs to be touched with Awareness. Does that make any sense? I guess what I am trying to say, is that I have spent a significant amount of time in the not so distant past, denying that there was ego.... only to realize that, well, there is PLENTY of ego! Illusary or not. Essentially I feel like I don't "know" anything. I feel a bit lost in this moment to be honest. I'm sure it will pass.
Love!
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 4:25:59 PM
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Carson - maybe it'd help to define what you mean by ego, just so we're on the same page? Ego, to me, is the sense of a separate self.
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yogani
USA
5245 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 4:28:30 PM
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Hi Carson:
The ego acts not for cutting off its own head, but for expanding its view. What is the ego anyway, but identified awareness? It is the same awareness that we find in enlightenment when identification has faded. Same awareness -- much happier situation.
As for cutting the limb, if ego were not the one cutting it while sitting on it, there would be no limb, because limitation is what the limb is. We must operate from limitation to move beyond limitation. That is the rationale for practices also, and it works.
Attacking the ego does not help much. It never has. It is like saying, "Someday I will be able to fly to California without an airplane, so I will dump this crummy airplane today." Where does that leave us? Nowhere.
The ego is our airplane to enlightenment. We have to operate from where we are. It is not possible to operate from where we are not.
Someone wrote me recently asking if it was okay to meditate to be more successful in business. I said, sure, go for it. Meditating for business will be sure to lead to a broader view. If that person were discouraged from meditating for business, how would he ever get beyond that need? Meditating is the fastest way to do it, not by condemning or trying to ignore the attachment to business.
It is the same thing for health. Millions take up yoga for health. Why not? It can lead to much more than health.
If it is the ego who wants to meditate, that is great. It will lead beyond whatever the imagined reason is -- even the concept of enlightenment. Hard as we may try, we cannot imagine our way beyond the fact of what it is. We can only purify the vehicle (this nervous system) and become a fuller expression of our essential nature, which is pure bliss consciousness.
Honestly, I can think of nothing that would want to meditate besides ego (identified awareness). If that were not the case, there would be only pure awareness, and meditation would not be about purification and opening, but about basking in the infinite. Even then, it is the person who sits down to meditate. Or is it stillness in action sitting to meditate? Does it even matter?
We can only operate from where we are, and there is no practical reason to divide ourselves into good and bad, ego and non-ego. It's all one thing (one awareness) in the process of transformation from expressing with identification to expressing without identification.
As you know, I consider it counterproductive (non-relational) to be inquiring about these things too much before abiding inner silence is present. It is ego that brings us to the meditation seat to get us to that stage. Bravo!
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 4:35:24 PM
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Hi Amoux
Yeah, that's how I would define ego....a sense of a seperate self. So, when defined like that I guess it is easier to be a bit more specific about all this. I KNOW that there is no seperate self. That all ideas about being a seperate self are illusion. This I Know. But with that said, there is still identification with a seperate self (when I go looking for it). I can deny until the cows come home that I don't identify with any sense of seperate self, but when I am totally honest with myself, and when I really look in the mirror, I see all kinds of little "pockets" in which there is still identification with a sense of "I", "me" and "mine". The ego in this sense is illusion, yes, but it is still identified with, no matter how hard I try to convince myself it is not. Don't get me wrong, there are many areas in which the ego has been dropped. But in the past I think I have been lying to myself in saying "I no longer identify with the ego." Because when I really start looking for it, there it is..... (mis)identification. Ego hiding in all the corners of the mind. And denying (telling) myself that the ego is an illusion doesn't seem to be breaking these habitual identification patterns. Make sense?
Love!
Here's a video Kirtanman recently shared on FB that kinda sums up how I am feeling these days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gCU...t=1&index=62 (I don't really feel that my ego is THAT big, but, you get the idea ) |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 5:14:17 PM
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Funny video.
What you write makes sense. It seems to me that when you 'go looking' for pockets of ego misidentification, you're like someone who searches all around the house for his eye glasses, only to glance in a mirror and see them right on the end of his nose IOW, what you are looking to eradicate by shining the light of awareness on it - well, awareness was/is/always will be already aware What you're looking with is It
And the ego misidentification will drop away - stillness arising illuminates it, sees through it, and laughs - at Itself.
Hopefully this is some help - if not ignore it utterly!
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 5:14:40 PM
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Hi Yogani
Thanks for clearing some of this up for me.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The ego acts not for cutting off its own head, but for expanding its view.
Doesn't the ego desire to keep the awareness identified with it? Doesn't it fight all the way "out"? (That's my experience anyways.....or at least it seems to be?)
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
What is the ego anyway, but identified awareness? It is the same awareness that we find in enlightenment when identification has faded. Same awareness -- much happier situation.
Yes, I see that there is only one awareness. It can be limited by identification or it can be expanded to encompass the Whole of Itself.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
As for cutting the limb, if ego were not the one cutting it while sitting on it, there would be no limb, because limitation is what the limb is. We must operate from limitation to move beyond limitation. That is the rationale for practices also, and it works.
Wow. That really hit home here. A bit speechless over this bit.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Attacking the ego does not help much. It never has.
Does "attacking" anything ever really help much? Hahaha.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It is like saying, "Someday I will be able to fly to California without an airplane, so I will dump this crummy airplane today." Where does that leave us? Nowhere.
The ego is our airplane to enlightenment. We have to operate from where we are. It is not possible to operate from where we are not.
Yes, of course. So, denying that there is an ego, or saying that the ego is just an illusion (while still at least somewhat identified with it) is counterproductive right? (this is what I feel I have been doing for some time now)
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Someone wrote me recently asking if it was okay to meditate to be more successful in business. I said, sure, go for it. Meditating for business will be sure to lead to a broader view. If that person were discouraged from meditating for business, how would he ever get beyond that need? Meditating is the fastest way to do it, not by condemning or trying to ignore the attachment to business.
It is the same thing for health. Millions take up yoga for health. Why not? It can lead to much more than health.
If it is the ego who wants to meditate, that is great. It will lead beyond whatever the imagined reason is -- even the concept of enlightenment. Hard as we may try, we cannot imagine our way beyond the fact of what it is. We can only purify the vehicle (this nervous system) and become a fuller expression of our essential nature, which is pure bliss consciousness.
So, essentially you are saying that I should stop trying to find and irradicate my "ego pockets" and just continue to practice? Or is there some benefit to trying to work on breaking the identification via means other then just spiritual (sitting) practices?
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Honestly, I can think of nothing that would want to meditate besides ego (identified awareness). If that were not the case, there would be only pure awareness, and meditation would not be about purification and opening, but about basking in the infinite. Even then, it is the person who sits down to meditate. Or is it stillness in action sitting to meditate? Does it even matter?
We can only operate from where we are, and there is no practical reason to divide ourselves into good and bad, ego and non-ego. It's all one thing (one awareness) in the process of transformation from expressing with identification to expressing without identification.
Makes perfect sense...thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
As you know, I consider it counterproductive (non-relational) to be inquiring about these things too much before abiding inner silence is present. It is ego that brings us to the meditation seat to get us to that stage. Bravo!
There are differing degrees of abiding inner silence though right? It isn't an "on/off" sort of thing is it? Meaning, am I too early to be properly utilizing self inquiry? (I know you can't really Know this) I'm not doing "active" self inquiry...I'm letting it happen as and when it does....but I guess I can get a little carried away with it once the process begins.
Thanks for taking the time to advise.
Love!
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yogani
USA
5245 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2010 : 5:31:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
There are differing degrees of abiding inner silence though right? It isn't an "on/off" sort of thing is it? Meaning, am I too early to be properly utilizing self inquiry? (I know you can't really Know this) I'm not doing "active" self inquiry...I'm letting it happen as and when it does....but I guess I can get a little carried away with it once the process begins.
Hi Carson:
Self-inquiry can be very helpful once we are able to release our inquiry in stillness, no matter what procedure of inquiry we may be using. That requires some abiding inner silence, obviously. It is abiding inner silence that draws us to self-inquiry.
We will know it is time for self-inquiry if we feel the identification of our awareness fading when we engage in inquiry. If we are feeling confusion, strain, headache, etc., then we can be pretty sure we are getting ahead of ourselves, and it is time to self-pace.
This lesson offers additional perspective on relational vs. non-relational self-inquiry, and technique suggestions as well: http://www.aypsite.org/356.html
Enjoy the ride.
The guru is in you.
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Walking the Line
