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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 12 2010 : 9:45:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.
I am just saying they are more confusing than other teachings. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 12:23:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Even if the fantastic stories (of "only hair and fingernails remaining" and such) are true -- how are they important? Those are occurrences at the level of form -- occurring within the very mind/consciousness that you (Alwayson) have been warning us against identifying with.
In my opinion, rainbow body is pretty important. Realizing nonduality is just step one. The methods for rainbow body attainment are known very well. And the methods have nothing to do with mind.
I had a pet theory that the AYP star could also be used to obtain rainbow body but this is not one of the real methods. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 13 2010 05:07:18 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 01:46:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogch...Rainbow_Body
Having completed the four visions before death, the individual does not die at all, but his or her physical body gradually disappears for an external observer, while being able to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion.
Yes, that's what I meant too. This is Mahaparinirvana. 
I meditate with Lord Shiva, Lord Buddha and Osho every morning.
I sit in front of Lord Shiva. Lord Buddha is on left and Osho on right.
And then we all merge and disappear into nothingness.
I have mentioned about the Light in my body earlier:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7919
Its still the same. Always.
I am like a pregnant woman conceived with Light. And my joy is uncomparable with any other joy of the world.  |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 11:11:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
Hi Christi,
Good to see you!
I find the teachings of Ramana Maharshi to be powerful, clear and effective.
I don't think Yogani was criticizing Ramana as much as certain neo-Advaitins, who say there is nothing to do, at all. I actually can't think of the last time I heard anyone say this, which may be a bit of a testament to how effective the "just do nothing" approach actually is.
Have you read Yogani's book on Self-inquiry?
I have.
Reading your initial post, I had that same question regarding whether or not you have read it.
Have you?
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 5:38:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.
I am just saying they are more confusing than other teachings.
Do you have any examples of teachings you feel are more clear, and less confusing?
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 6:37:22 PM
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Hi All,
Here's Yogani's specific view, as outlined in AYP Lesson 361, on Self-Inquiry in general, and Ramana Maharshi in particular.
http://www.aypsite.org/361.html
I thought it might be helpful to this discussion. As always, Yogani expresses the AYP view clearly, reasonably and well.
Some excerpts:
"Non-duality teachers so often dismiss meditation as an object/subject practice, while tying their students up in endless loops of mental gymnastics, and call it "self-inquiry." Often it is an object/object (mind/mind) practice, which is worse. That's not real self-inquiry."
**
"Both Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj were well aware of the importance of "ripeness," and were supportive of practitioners undertaking whatever means necessary to become ripe. Many of their followers have not been nearly as understanding, and that is why the field of non-dual self-inquiry has remained esoteric and problematic. There is no need for this. Only an understanding of the means for becoming ripe should be added. Then non-dual self-inquiry will become a rich field of realization for everyone."
**
"The process of refining the I-thought (object) in stillness is actually meditation from the beginning. It is what Ramana Maharshi taught, and it is an excellent practice for those who are ready for it."
I agree that some forms of modern self-inquiry can be problematic.
I don't see Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry as problematic, nor do I see it as being dangerous.
If seems that Yogani feels this same way, though I certainly invite him to add anything, or clarify, if he'd like.
I also strongly agree that AYP Deep Meditation specifically, as taught by Yogani specifically, is quite possibly the best preparatory practice for deep self inquiry in existence.
As I think I mentioned, I've recently re-read Ramana Maharshi's Be As You Are, and have been surprised at how "AYP Friendly" Ramana actually was; he actually taught a very integrated approach, just as Yogani/AYP does, albeit from a slightly different angle.
In a fairly recent forum post Yogani wrote:
"On self-inquiry, it is natural that it becomes more powerful when strengthened with abiding inner silence and the habit of samyama. It might seem a bit presumptuous, but Ramana Maharshi probably never counted on these elements coming into play so fast, so the recommendation for self-inquiry all day long in his day was not likely to be an overload. More likely to be non-relational (not in stillness). Not the case with AYP in the picture, where the inquiry becomes relational (in stillness) much sooner, and therefore more powerful."
I had a similar thought, from a slightly different angle: that if Yogani had had the chance to explain the AYP approach to Ramana, Ramana would have simply said:
"Yes, that will work."
Ramana was quite "big" on any practice which produced experience of silence, and subsequently the witness, because these are just different names for the Self, at different relative levels of experience.
What he an Nisargadatta both dismissed, were meditation and yoga practices that were done by rote (i.e. the endless japa of mantra-mantra-mantra often prescribed in India) ... because these kept mind and the sense of being a separate self firmly in place, as do any form-oriented "siddhis" (which Ramana also taught against).
Yogani has simply uncovered a *way* in which deep meditation can be the ultra-useful preparatory practice for self-inquiry, in ways that Ramana Maharshi "pre-approved" by lauding the benefits of silence, in his teachings.
If Alwayson had started this thread without naming Ramana Maharshi, I may not have said anything at all; I just see Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj as being of a different order of magnitude than some of the far-less-useful (and even problematic) self-inquiry teachings (other than Ramana and Nisargadatta) that Yogani references. Yogani makes this distinction, as well (Ramana and Nisargadatta were both good teachers; some of their followers, "not so much").
AYP just helps us to make even more effective use of the inherent synergies available via form-practices and inquiry, to help us become aware of the awareness, the wholeness, we each and all every actually are, now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Aug 13 2010 6:38:27 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 7:44:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogch...Rainbow_Body
Having completed the four visions before death, the individual does not die at all, but his or her physical body gradually disappears for an external observer, while being able to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion.
Yes, that's what I meant too. This is Mahaparinirvana.
I meditate with Lord Shiva, Lord Buddha and Osho every morning.
I sit in front of Lord Shiva. Lord Buddha is on left and Osho on right.
And then we all merge and disappear into nothingness.
I have mentioned about the Light in my body earlier:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7919
Its still the same. Always.
I am like a pregnant woman conceived with Light. And my joy is uncomparable with any other joy of the world.
The wikipedia article is not entirely correct. You don't disappear into nothingness. If you achieve that higher level of rainbow body, you look normal, but your body is made up of light. Other people's hands go through you. This is described in many Dzogchen sources. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 13 2010 7:59:20 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 7:51:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.
I am just saying they are more confusing than other teachings.
Do you have any examples of teachings you feel are more clear, and less confusing?
Any Dzogchen book from Amazon or Barnes and Noble is thousands of times more clear and profound than modern nonduality teachings like Adyashanti, Tolle, Ramana. I like NM slightly. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 7:54:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.
I am just saying they are more confusing than other teachings.
Do you have any examples of teachings you feel are more clear, and less confusing?
Any Dzogchen book from Amazon or Barnes and Noble is thousands of times more clear and profound than modern nonduality teachings like Adyashanti, Tolle, Ramana. I like NM slightly.
Hm. Okay. Any recommended titles or authors?
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 9:05:16 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
I have.
Reading your initial post, I had that same question regarding whether or not you have read it.
Have you?
Yes, I have.
As I understand it, the book is about self-inquiry practices, such as the kind that Ramana Maharshi taught. The relational/ non-relational aspect of self-inquiry practice that Yogani talks about relates to this (practices such as asking "who am I"), as well as to the "be here now" teachings of people such as J.J. Krishnamurti. The warnings that Yogani suggests with regard to self-inquiry practice in the book go further than simply saying that "if you are not ready, then it won't work". Self-inquiry practice adopted too early on the path, in a non-relational way can lead people to give up their other spiritual practices, and so hinder (or halt) their progress. He discusses that in the book as one of the dangers of non-relational self-inquiry, as I'm sure you'll remember from reading it. In this forum he has mentioned some of the symptoms of engaging in self-inquiry practice too soon, including headaches:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=6156#55179
These are some of the dangers inherent in self-inquiry practices (such as the "who am I" practice of Ramana Maharshi) which Yogani has mentioned, and which many teachers today are overlooking, to the detriment (and confusion) of many of their students. Some people (such as yourself) may not have run into these problems with regards to self-inquiry practice, but that doesn't mean that nobody else has.
I'm sure if I have not understood Yogani's position with regard to this matter correctly he will step in to enlighten us. 
Christi |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2010 : 10:11:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.
I am just saying they are more confusing than other teachings.
Do you have any examples of teachings you feel are more clear, and less confusing?
Any Dzogchen book from Amazon or Barnes and Noble is thousands of times more clear and profound than modern nonduality teachings like Adyashanti, Tolle, Ramana. I like NM slightly.
Hm. Okay. Any recommended titles or authors?
crystal and the way of light
flight of the garuda |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2010 : 12:26:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
The wikipedia article is not entirely correct. You don't disappear into nothingness. If you achieve that higher level of rainbow body, you look normal, but your body is made up of light. Other people's hands go through you. This is described in many Dzogchen sources.
They are talking about the period when the physical body is disintegrated. Obviously I won't disappear from the physical world as long as my physical form is doing fine.
I know no Dogchen sources... I heard this Dogchen and Rainbow Body word for the first time from your posts in this forum.
They are great but I am not interested in them anymore. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2010 : 7:24:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.
I am just saying they are more confusing than other teachings.
Do you have any examples of teachings you feel are more clear, and less confusing?
Any Dzogchen book from Amazon or Barnes and Noble is thousands of times more clear and profound than modern nonduality teachings like Adyashanti, Tolle, Ramana. I like NM slightly.
Hm. Okay. Any recommended titles or authors?
crystal and the way of light
flight of the garuda
Thanks; I may well check them out.
I'm also reading (just started this morning; downloaded on my kindle) Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen by Karma Chagme.
It's interesting, but not extremely simple; there's a lot of Buddhist symbolism, reference to Sanskrit and Tibetan, and what-not. There's good and interesting exposition by Gyatrul Rinpoche (w/translation by B. Alan Wallace , who we've discussed here at the forum, a bit).
I'm not interested in learning about Dzogchen per se, so much -- but am always interested in the clearest possible expressions of truth, in order to pass them along.
If Dzogchen really does offer clearer articulation regarding inquiry (apparently known as insight in Tibetan Buddhism) than Ramana, Adyashanti, etc., I'd be interested to know where such clear descriptions can be found (and I'm guessing the titles you mentioned above have them?).
Thanks again.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2010 : 8:03:51 PM
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The Flight of the Garuda is good, especially the Garuda chapter. Also anything by Norbu.
You can get a lot of Dzogchen texts via interlibrary loan for free. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 14 2010 8:19:58 PM |
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Fundamental Point of Nonduality
