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11jono11
United Kingdom
181 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 6:44:24 PM
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Hello, I have been practicing Kriya for a few months now (other stuff before that), recently kind of switching to AYP but having some issues (not with AYP in particular, spiritual progression in general). Over the past couple of weeks I have been getting OCD about a few various things, which I won't go into right now, though maybe it would help me to explain (would take up a lot of text, will see how I go without it).
Any hoo, obsessional things, kind of irrational but at the same time justifiable, things along a similar theme. This body-mind has had these kind of tendencies for years but just recently I have felt a resurgence. I went to see Mooji last weekend, that helped clear a lot of stuff for me  and just before I got into a witnessing position where I was smiling/laughing (internally) at these troublesome little sods (thoughts). One thing I picked up from Mooji (amongst others) was to just let the thoughts come and let them go, stuff that i already new, but a nice reminder, this helped a lot, but I got back home and more stuff. I have just moved house, surrounded by boxes etc so wondering whether that also has something to do with it, but also wondering if all this is: Releasing stuff/stuff coming to the surface, and/or the mind trying to keep itself in a job. When I surrender i feel great peace, if i try and logically work with the mind to reassure myself logically with thought it all just gets worse, so obviously the best thing to do is to not give any attention to these thoughts, but I am giving them attention at the moment. Another thing that helps, sort of surrender, is to remind myself as the witness, they're just thoughts/ just to watch them. Also as I have been moving house I stopped practice (Kriya) for about 5 days maybe, time restricted, work, uni, moving etc etc, wondering wether that also could be related
Am I right in stating, there is no point worrying? If I never worry and surrender everything to God then everything will be ok won't it? I know that this is the case but would just like some reassurance I guess. I feel like this could be a massive break through point for me, if you know what I mean? When I go into the OCD thoughts/entertain them/give them attention, I get to a point where I feel like I am going mad ( was going to say loosing my mind, but that is not a negative thing :) ) almost feel like I am getting towards an Eckhart Tolle type liberation :) , then when I let go there is so much peace. Should I just trust the Universe? Self? God? (all the same thing yes?) Should I just let go? If I let go everything will be ok right? Including my physical health? This is what the OCD thoughts surround, silly as I know I can't die. I think I read Ramana saying something about a train = to God and as we're riding the train letting the train carry our luggage=worries.
Ego feels a slight bit odd posting this, but I am sure you guys understand, maybe someone has been through something similar.
God bless
Om Shanti
Om Tat Sat
Om |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 9:24:37 PM
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Hi Jono 
Yup, totally crazy, hahaha   .....just kidding 
Here is what came to mind when I read your post:
I used to practice Kriya for a while before I started AYP, and from what I remember there was a lot of emphasis on energetic cultivation (pranayam and such) but not so much emphasis on the Silence cultivation aspect of spiritual practice. I don't know what your personal Kriya routine entails, but if it is mostly energetic cultivation and not a lot of silence cultivation, then this could be part of the problem you are experiencing. Here is an excerpt from Lesson 43 that illustrates what I am pointing at here:
"practicing pranayama alone without meditation can leave the practitioner vulnerable in some ways. Imagine you plow a field, turning the rich soil over and over. It is exposed, fertile, and ready for the seed to be planted. What will you plant there? If you meditate deeply with an effective method, you will plant the field full with the seed of pure bliss consciousness, and it will germinate and grow strong, filling the field with joy. But what if you don't meditate, and you don't plant anything in particular in your fertile pranayama field? What will grow there? Something will. But what? Whatever happens to be around. Some desires, some thoughts, some emotions, whatever happens to be blowing over the field. To tell you the truth, a lot of weeds can grow there, because there is no crop of pure bliss consciousness filling up that field. This is why pranayama, practiced as a stand-alone over months and years, can lead to less instead of more. In some people this type of imbalanced practice can lead to increasing rigidness, egotism, anxiety, anger, and just plain bad luck. Meditate every day after you do pranayama and you will experience the opposite of these things in great profusion – flexibility, compassion, peace, joy, and lots of good luck. That's how it works."
Is what Yogani is explaining above a possible cause for the issues you are talking about in your post? Only you will know for sure.
Hope this was helpful.
Love!
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 10:10:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 11jono11
the mind trying to keep itself in a job.
Yep; any evaluation-oriented thinking is that and only that.
Body-minds always kick stuff like that up; it goes with the body-mind, it's not conscious or volitional. What changes, as awakening progresses, is the amount of attention/attachment.
Just notice: if you're experiencing thoughts, can you be those thoughts?
Feeling upset at thoughts is identical to feeling upset at clouds in the sky.
(They're happening; kind of pointless to feel upset, yes?)
quote:
When I surrender i feel great peace, if i try and logically work with the mind to reassure myself logically with thought it all just gets worse, so obviously the best thing to do is to not give any attention to these thoughts
Obviously.
You will experience this same dynamic approximately 100% of the time.
(It's amazing how long it takes many of us to realize the rather inherent message in this: surrender = peace .... but only every single time.)
quote:
I am giving them attention at the moment.
Perfect (<- nothing imperfect can happen; every moment is complete, aka perfect -- as in: it's happening, why fight it?)
Same principle applies in every moment: if you're giving thoughts attention in this moment, surrender this moment ---- voila, Peace.
quote:
Am I right in stating, there is no point worrying?
Only completely.
What is worry?
Memory-based imagination utterly unconnected with reality.
It's like a river is flowing, and you're saying to part of the water, "No, no - don't flow THAT way ... that would be terrible!!"
Kind of pointless; rivers flow as they flow; life happens as it happens.
quote:
If I never worry and surrender everything to God then everything will be ok won't it?
Well, it'll be perfect.
As it always already actually is.
Who knows if the mind will think it's okay?
Conditioned thoughts are like burps; they happen ... and they matter every bit as much, although many of them are decidedly less amusing.
quote:
I know that this is the case but would just like some reassurance I guess.
"Please See Above."
Reality is its own reassurance.
Focusing on conditioned ideas about reality ...... "not so much".
The only real variable is how much attention is attached to something happening in awareness.
Like burps, thoughts and ideas happen ... like burps, the experience varies depending upon how much attention is given to them.
The more we experience our self as awareness ... which anyone can verify any moment by noticing that if something can be perceived, there's still something perceiving it; experiencing it --- and that what we actually are is the experiencing awareness.
So-called enlightenment is simply being conscious of this, and enjoying the benefits.
So-called unenlightenment is being unconscious of this, and thereby being attached to the ever-shifting vacillations of form.
Awareness is constant; the flow of form is constant; only attention varies.
In our true nature of awareness, balance is inherent.
Sometimes, body-mind kicks up seemingly disproportionate reactions - such as your OCD stuff, and/or your worry .... and, like everything else, those things happen as they happen; the factors that cause them to arise now (and/or prior to your writing your post) were set in motion long ago; no reason to over-focus on them now.
Hence the advice to simply let thoughts be as they are.
When it's noticed how reality operates -- there's no reason anyone wouldn't do that.
(And yes, "easy for me to say" now; literally. However, it wasn't even possible for me to say until very recently, out of my entire life ... and yet, it's always just as observably true, by anyone -- that's why I'm passing it along. )
quote:
I feel like this could be a massive break through point for me, if you know what I mean?
I do; been there, dreamed that --- for a long time.
quote:
when I let go there is so much peace.
quote:
Should I just trust the Universe? Self? God? (all the same thing yes?) Should I just let go?
You'll do what you'll do ... and these questions help it seem like the tendency is TO do that.
Let's see ...... when you let go, there is so much peace .......... but only every time.
This was my experience, too.
It's no longer my experience, but only because there's no non-peace now.
How can that be?
The awareness we each and all ever are now doesn't get disturbed; it isn't possible; it's the inherently free experiencing awareness ... disturbance requires artificial evaluation.
How did this happen for me?
I'm really not sure; I just kept letting go until it happened.
(Yes, really.)
quote:
If I let go everything will be ok right?
Everything happens as it happens, including letting go.
Whatever happens is perfect, whether it's peace and bliss, or your entire life derailing like a mis-handled freight train.
All this is kind of like asking "The boulder rolling down the hill ... it'll roll down the hill the way I want it to roll, right?"
The only honest answer is: it'll roll as it rolls, according to the forces that set it in motion, keep it in motion, determine its exact path, and so on.
And, as with a boulder rolling down a hill, the only truly logical response is to simply get out of the way, as quickly and utterly as possible.
quote:
Including my physical health?
Who knows?
Bodies live when they live, die when they die. Treated in harmony with their design, the live longer; treated in a manner disharmonious with their design, they live shorter.
Whether they're treated well or poorly is a matter of reactive conditioning.
Letting go is the logical response; the only one, ever -- because there's no one controlling any of this, any more than someone is controlling the waves of the ocean.
Why not relax and enjoy?
quote:
This is what the OCD thoughts surround, silly as I know I can't die. I think I read Ramana saying something about a train = to God and as we're riding the train letting the train carry our luggage=worries.
Yep; fear-of-death thoughts arise, and are attached to, as long as primary identification is erroneously put into form; it subsides when awareness of self-as-awareness, containing form is restored in ongoing experiencing ("restored" per the fact that none of us are born unenlightened; it takes a lot of programming to make us that way).
quote:
Ego feels a slight bit odd posting this, but I am sure you guys understand, maybe someone has been through something similar.
Nearly identical - including the OCD/physical health thing.
I hope this is useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- I've written before, here at the forum, that the entire path boils down to three simple steps:
1. Just
2. Let
3. Go
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Aug 06 2010 10:22:15 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2010 : 12:03:38 AM
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Hey Jono
Great replies from Carson and K-Man.
Here's an experiment you may or may not want to try. You sound like you *might* be at a place where it would be useful, but maybe I'm trippin. I trip often
As you go through your day, see how well you can function without thoughts. When you notice thoughts come up, just drop them with the intention of seeing if you can survive without them. If it helps, ask yourself "Can I function without this thought?". And just let the thought go.
You might be surprised how much you don't need thoughts, even in order to read and communicate, etc.
Or you can ignore these words...
It also feels good to forgive other drivers on the road...
You seem to be in a good place Jono
Love
cosmic |
Edited by - cosmic on Aug 07 2010 12:04:50 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2010 : 1:02:06 PM
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Yes, for many years i practiced "not thinking". I was successful, but it was very very difficult. Meditation will lead you in the same direction with much less effort and frustration.
But if anyone insists on trying to stop thoughts, here is how:
You can't stop them by trying. The way you stop thoughts is by programming your mind to do something else.
That's what a mantra is for in meditation (see Yogani's instructions in the "main lessons" link, look in Yoga FAQ, or Deep Meditation book).
If you want to stop thoughts during the day in between meditations, it is done by being "in the moment".
Put all your attention on your senses. Try to feel what you are seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, and tasting all at the same time. There won't be any room for thoughts.
And that is the only reason you would want to stop thoughts anyway: because it takes your consciousness away from reality. |
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11jono11
United Kingdom
181 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2010 : 06:44:01 AM
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| All great stuff. Thank you all . |
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11jono11
United Kingdom
181 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2010 : 6:19:25 PM
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Firstly, again thank you all. The thought/s are losing power slightly, I get to a place where I remember everything is perfect /+an opportunity to awaken and smile at the thought/s, though it/they are lingering slightly, (which must be perfect).
I just wanted to add something, to make a statement and ask a question at the same time, perhaps for the benefit of others in the future.
I am a little tired so hope I word this right, if not i'll have another stab at it tomorrow.
This is directed to everyone but also in a way in response to Kirtanman quote:
If I let go everything will be ok right?
Everything happens as it happens, including letting go.
Whatever happens is perfect, whether it's peace and bliss, or your entire life derailing like a mis-handled freight train.
All this is kind of like asking "The boulder rolling down the hill ... it'll roll down the hill the way I want it to roll, right?"
The only honest answer is: it'll roll as it rolls, according to the forces that set it in motion, keep it in motion, determine its exact path, and so on.
And, as with a boulder rolling down a hill, the only truly logical response is to simply get out of the way, as quickly and utterly as possible.
quote:
Including my physical health?
Who knows?
Bodies live when they live, die when they die. Treated in harmony with their design, the live longer; treated in a manner disharmonious with their design, they live shorter.
Whether they're treated well or poorly is a matter of reactive conditioning.
Letting go is the logical response; the only one, ever -- because there's no one controlling any of this, any more than someone is controlling the waves of the ocean.
Why not relax and enjoy?
quote:
Regarding this part of your beautiful response, my thought/s go over things that could possibly be a health hazard, that could have happened, but though reasoning with the mind I'm 99% (/100%) sure did not and even if they did happen would resolve themselves anyway, it is just not knowing that the mind seems to obsess over.
My question/statement is, If we surrender and there was something wrong/to fix/to go to the doctors about would not consciousness act in the "body-minds" best interest/the best interests of consciousness? , would it not go and fix the problem if there were something to be fixed? If we surrender and let go of the mind would not the results (ironically) be results that the mind would favour (see as good)?
So again to repeat, and state the obvious the best thing to do is always to surrender.
This is my thinking, and I thought might be a help to other people experiencing the hilarious (when witnessed) and not so hilarious (when identified with) exploits of the mind.
Does this make sense? I hope it does.
Thank you for the support
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2010 : 8:49:25 PM
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Hi Jono,
Thanks for the kinds words about my response; I'm glad you found it useful.
quote:
Originally posted by 11jono11
it is just not knowing that the mind seems to obsess over.
As always; ego-mind is the manifested premise that we're partial and unwhole, and therefore must try to control things (gain the good, avoid the bad) in order to survive and thrive.
It's a dream.
As people, we're aspects of the whole, "wholling" (wholly holy healthy whole <--- all of these words come from the same root, FYI. )
The wholeness is what is living every moment; writing and reading these words; we're not disconnected from anything --- we can't be.
Rest easy; all is well.
(Unless you attach to thoughts, focus on them and let the story-waves arise ... then, well, all bets are off, of course.  )
quote:
My question/statement is, If we surrender and there was something wrong/to fix/to go to the doctors about would not consciousness act in the "body-minds" best interest/the best interests of consciousness?
Yes and no. Who know who stays well - and when and how? Who knows who dies - and when and how (until they do, of course).
This is all body-stuff; it happens as it happens; the factors that contribute to any body-mind's health in any moment are essentially innumerable, just like the factors contributing to anything else in any moment.
"Everything causes everything else."
~Adyashanti
"Everything happens as it happens."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj
Perfect trust doesn't come from the fact that there's a "guardian consciousness" guiding our life, though that can be the sense of it, at times.
Perfect trust, and therefore perfect peace, come from the sure knowledge that nothing can go wrong no matter what happens.
quote:
would it not go and fix the problem if there were something to be fixed? If we surrender and let go of the mind would not the results (ironically) be results that the mind would favour (see as good)?
Not necessarily; reality and limited-mind don't have any connection with each other (hence all the trouble ..... ).
Limited-mind thinks in individual terms, which don't really exist, no matter how much we may think they do, at times.
Consciousness operates as the whole, manifesting in various ways.
Example: I have no idea whatsoever how long the body-mind writing this post will last; I could care less, truly -- it'll last as long as it lasts.
I used to have the OCD/Health Thing, too, but then, bit-by-bit, as benefits of practices began to be realized, identification shifted away from individual body-mind, and into wholeness, and as that shift occurred, fear (all fear) dissolved.
quote:
So again to repeat, and state the obvious the best thing to do is always to surrender.
Yes; it's not just that it's the "best" thing; it's that the more we understand reality ... it's the only sane thing, really.
In about ten seconds' serious analysis (or less), you can see that the you that you think of as you is a bundle of conditioned biology, psychology, familial culture, national culture, learned experiences and so on ... as so, has a very, very distorted view of the way things actually are (nothing wrong with this; every thinking-mind/personality is in this situation).
There's nothing at all wrong with thinking-minds/personalities --- they just misunderstand their role in reality.
They think they need to be in charge, to control, to figure stuff out, to get the good and avoid the bad, and so on. Not so.
Asking the personality to direct our lives is like getting an inkling to hang our head out the car window, and giving the steering wheel to our dog, and saying, "Here -- you drive!"
As In: Possibly highly non-boring for a very short period of time, depending upon our speed and general traffic conditions, but likely confusing and stressful for both our dog and ourselves (not to mention anyone and anything in the immediate vicinity) ... not to mention likely being rather loud and expensive, as well.
Best that humans drive, and dogs hang their heads out the window, as opposed to vice-versa, yes?
Likewise ---- "life knows what it's doing" ---- personalities don't.
It's not the personality's job to run things, or figure them out.
That's why every religion and every major spiritual system teaches surrender not only as wise, but as a primary path to enlightenment.
In fact, Ramana Maharshi says there are two paths that are guaranteed to work, and they amount to the same thing - Jnana Marga - the Way of Knowing (Realizing the Self), and Bhakti Marga (the Way of Surrender - turning it all over to God {Self}).
The entire Bhagavad-Gita is a treatise on one thing, really: Surrender.
("Detach from the fruits of action.")
Why is this so important?
Because the ideas of the limited-self about getting and protecting what it thinks it needs keep it walled off from reality.
In surrendering, we open.
In opening all the way, we realize we are ever actually unbound.
quote:
Thank you for the support
You're very welcome; as others have said - it sounds like you're doing great, overall.
The biggest single technique that helps with any disturbing thoughts, is to surrender the moment in which they occur.
They're reactions, like burps or itches .... they really don't need to be focused on.
"What if?" is utterly pointless to ask ........ everything happens as it happens.
This is GREAT NEWS!
There's nothing to control, nothing to worry about ..... only living unbound to celebrate!
No kidding.
The entire spiritual path is to help us get to the point where we know this utterly ... and when we do .... life is no longer full of worry, stress and fear .... it's celebrated joyously, now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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OCD, going crazy? or mind keeping itself in a job?
