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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 31 2010 : 11:27:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by delta33
that's just fine.. what happens if you let go of the struggle?
When I let go of the struggle, I just see the truth. Sometimes it seems that struggle insulates us from truth. |
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11jono11
United Kingdom
181 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2010 : 5:49:53 PM
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Hello hello, I haven't read through all of these posts to an in-depth degree, just skimmed, only had time to read properly through the first few, I wholeheartedly  agree with Kirtanman, judging/evaluative thinking is the only real issue, (need to practice what I preach), but also just thought I would quickly add my experience, as it might help.
I used to do a lot of drugs (Cannabis was a favorite) then as life went on (especially increase in Bakti and spiritual practice) I slowly stopped enjoying them in order of strength. Don't know if it will work out like this for you but has for one other friend of mine and 2 others sort of (though they still like the occasional trip).
Don't judge and trust
Love and light  |
Edited by - 11jono11 on Sep 05 2010 6:17:01 PM |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2010 : 2:28:22 PM
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Clear White Light,
I take exception to Kirtanman's and many other posts here as I have done on this other topic of vegetarian and non-vegetarian. http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2
I do not want to repeat many of those same statements here again. I will summarize that lofty notions, advaitic, vedantic and zen thoughts, 'everything is all right' etc. will not help with practical matters that happen in the physical plane and are dvaitic (dualistic) in nature.
Especially addictions are vicious and dangerous. Those who do not have the first hand experience know nothing about them. I am talking from my own experience here. The 12 step program is the best way to deal with addictions. Start it right away. This is my opinion. Yogani is also supportive of the tweleve step program and advocates it for addictions.
Please get help! This is not something one can deal with all by himself. Join a tweleve step program. This is the best proven help for addictions so far. Email me if you want.
Ignore the lofty notions, useless advaitic, vedantic advices and statements like, ""Rest easy, baby; rest easy; recognize it all as light and rainbows and be happy."". It's absurd. Those statements should be made to some other audience like zen buddhist students. Listening to these will only make matters worse!!!
Again, I am talking from my own personal experience! Not from advaitic, vedantic or zen books. Go to the 12 step program. I can not stress this any stronger. This is the best help available to come out of the vicious addictions and live peacefully with ourselves
Regards,
Ram. |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 21 2010 2:35:10 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2010 : 2:47:27 PM
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Hi Ram and All
As most of the longer term forumites here already know, I come from a background of both hard and soft drug addictions (heroin, methamphetamine, methadone, ketamine, marijuana and alcohol). I tried AA/NA many different times.... a few times of my own accord, a few other times because I was forced to. 12 steps didn't work for me at all. Nor do the actual statistics show that AA/NA is an effective approach to addiction. The current success rate for AA/NA is 5% (good luck finding these statistics though as NA/AA almost never releases any data on this...if you want RAM I will take the time to find the research I am talking about....don't have the time to search right now unless you really want me to). 5% is the same success rate percentage as with no program at all. The reason for this low of a success rate is because it doesn't really matter which program is used to end addiction. The only way to end addiction of any kind (substance or otherwise) is to truly desire to be clean, and to follow that up with action. What the appropriate course of action will be will be different for everyone. The only thing that was successful in helping me drop my addictions was AYP.
And for what it's worth, speaking from experience, my perspective aligns with Kirtanman and others. Once the thoughts surrounding addiction are no longer identified with, once the user comes to an understanding of reality as it is, addiction quickly begins to lose it's grip on us. There may still be some occassional use, there may continue to be daily use, or all usage may completely cease...but either way, the suffering surrounding our "addiction" quickly draws to a close.
I also think that surrender plays a big part in dropping addictions. The more we "fight" something the more ingrained it becomes. It was only when I completely surrendered to my addiction that the addiction (physical, mental and spiritual), aided by twice daily AYP practices, fell away on it's own.
Just one former addicts perspective 
Love!
Edit: Here is a link to a web page with a lot of statistical and other information about addiction, addiction treatment and AA/NA: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange...iveness.html
And in case you don't want to read through such a long page of statistical info, here is a short 2min video on the success rate of AA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_edJHURXhw |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2010 : 10:01:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Ram and All
As most of the longer term forumites here already know, I come from a background of both hard and soft drug addictions (heroin, methamphetamine, methadone, ketamine, marijuana and alcohol). I tried AA/NA many different times.... a few times of my own accord, a few other times because I was forced to. 12 steps didn't work for me at all. Nor do the actual statistics show that AA/NA is an effective approach to addiction. The current success rate for AA/NA is 5% (good luck finding these statistics though as NA/AA almost never releases any data on this...if you want RAM I will take the time to find the research I am talking about....don't have the time to search right now unless you really want me to). 5% is the same success rate percentage as with no program at all. The reason for this low of a success rate is because it doesn't really matter which program is used to end addiction. The only way to end addiction of any kind (substance or otherwise) is to truly desire to be clean, and to follow that up with action. What the appropriate course of action will be will be different for everyone. The only thing that was successful in helping me drop my addictions was AYP.
Dear CarsonZi,
Oh, I forgot to say one thing on my last post. I said go to the 12 step program. But, I forgot to say WORK the 12 steps. If you work the 12 steps, you will see the results. It is a spiritual program. The 12 steps are made up of basic principles. Surrender is the core of them.
I do not know where your statistics are coming from. Provide the sources and prove them. I think they are not right. Addiction, Alcoholism and its cure has become a lucarative business these days. Many companies, individuals are seeing the potential here to make money. They create these statistics to discredit the 12 step program for their own gains. Some of them have their own recovery program for which you pay thousands. This includes the medical community also. Medical community never believed in the spiritual mumbo jumbo (the way they call it.). It wants it's share of benefit from the addiction business, by making new pills etc., seeing pyschiatrist, therapy etc. If 12 steps was not an effective program, it would not have spread all over the world with millions (may be billions) of followers working on the 12 steps, and leading their life with a degree of peace without getting into disasters.
Some wise people in the medical communicty have embraced the 12 step program as the effective method for addictions. A lot of people go to 12 step programs forced by others, as you have mentioned yourself. The first step is to admit defeat and understand the need to change from within ourselves. If this is not there, none of the recovery programs will work. The surrender that you stated is a key part of the 12 step program. I know and can see hundereds/thousands of people for whom 12 steps have worked and is working.
I feel that people who are still suffering from addictions are not ready for AYP or any other type of advanced yoga practice. AYP might help in some aspects of addition. But to say, this is the path for addiction, is again misleading and sending others in a dangerous path. I would highly discourate that. There are millions of people around the world who can give a poisitive testimony for the 12 step program, including the founder of AYP (Yogani) who advises addicts to follow the 12 step program. Yoganis, radio inerviews and posts about the 12 step program clearly shows that he has a very good understanding of how the 12 step recovery program works. I If the 12 steps did not work for you, then may be you did not work on the 12 steps.
Some one can come to AYP and be here for many years do not do the practices sincerely with a discipline and blame AYP, claiming that it is not effective and it helps only 3% or 7% etc. Statistics is a good tool. Many times it is misused by people and corporations for their own personal interests. Statistics can easily be skewed one way or other. Also, you can get ten different set of statistics for the same thing depending on who you are getting it from.
We can apply this logic for anything. In fact, the 12 step program does not need the statistics from any one to prove its efficacy. One who has witnessed the program and seen the changes know themselves. I am alive today and leading a decent life because of the 12 step program.
Approaching powerful addictions intellectually through Jnana yoga (Advaita, vedanda, zen) etc., will not take some one far. Starting power raja yoga enerygy practices while under the addiction of drugs can be lethal.
Read the book, "The New Pair of Glasses" by Chuck C. It is a great book that came out of the AA program. It is one of the best spiritual books that I have ever read. I regard it higher than the other religious scriptures of the world. |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 21 2010 10:32:41 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2010 : 10:31:21 PM
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Hi Ram,
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
Clear White Light,
I take exception to Kirtanman's and many other posts here as I have done on this other topic of vegetarian and non-vegetarian. http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2
You sure do!
quote:
Especially addictions are vicious and dangerous. Those who do not have the first hand experience know nothing about them.
Those who do not have first hand experience with anything know nothing about it.
quote:
I am talking from my own experience here.
So am I; so was I, in my first response to Clear White Light.
quote:
The 12 step program is the best way to deal with addictions.
Respectfully disagreed; it can be for some, but the implication that it is for all, is not true. I agree with what Carson wrote.
Also, unless I missed a major post from Clear White Light, and I don't think I have --- he's less concerned with the possibility of being addicted to marijuana now, or recently, at least, than when he started this thread.
I have nothing against 12 Step programs, by the way -- I recommend them, and provide resources regarding them, on my own website - but to say that 12 Step programs are the "best way" is less than fully accurate, I feel.
As Carson pointed out: the first-year relapse figures are abysmal; in some cases as low as no program at all. In AA the statistics are slightly better - roughly 20%, or 1 person out of 5, are not drinking after twelve months, as a result of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous).
This is about 15% better than "no program", and so, it is considered the best option, by many.
It's not; full immersion is effective spiritual practices are -- as several of us here can personally attest.
Carl Jung indicated to Alcoholics Anonymous founder Bill Wilson in his letter of January 30th, 1961, that immersion in spiritual practices which facilitate the "highest religious experience" (aka non-dual realization), within the context of a supportive community, are the best hope for those seeking freedom from addiction.
12 Step programs provide the supportive community, and for those who work their program seriously and diligently, they can also provide a bhakti (devotion) marga (path)-like "way of surrender" and ego dissolution, which can provide a relatively strong protective barrier against relapse - but it is still a barrier, and it is still relative.
12 Step programs are not, however, the best approach for the direct "highest religious experience" that Jung referred to; the experiences of reality which facilitate permanent freedom from addiction - namely, the realization of our true nature.
Some excerpts from Jung's letter:
"His craving for alcohol was the equivalent on a low level of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God."
"The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is, that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path, which leads you to a higher understanding."
&
"Alcohol in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spiritus contra spiritum."
You can read the entire letter here.
And so, yes, 12 Step programs can help one orient in, and move forward in, this general direction (toward surrender/ away from ego-addiction), but they do not necessarily facilitate "highest religious experience" (non-dual realization), whereas other paths, for instance, AYP - do.
The ultimate result of the path and experiences that Jung speaks of, enlightenment, is the true cure for addiction, and the only cure, on all levels - spiritually, psychically (mentally) and physically.
Anything less than realizing our true nature leaves identification, and/or the possibility of identification, with false ideas alive -- and thereby leaves the possibility of addiction open, in experience.
AYP can help to literally facilitate the dissolution of source of all addiction (the ego-idea; the "I-thought"). So can 12 Step programs ... but it's a lot more work, and I'm not sure I know of any examples of people who have realized their true nature fully, via 12 Step programs alone, whereas via AYP, there are at least several, currently.
All ego-ideas (the false, partial sense-of-self with which we create unenlightenment) are inherently addicted and addictive; some teachings refer to the limited perception of self as the "desire body" (Kamakaya in Sanskrit) ... and this is what these teachings mean.
If we could actually be partial and unwhole, then we would need something from outside us to fulfill us, protect us --- to make us whole.
This perception is how we create the dream of unenlightenment.
Within the dream of unenlightenment arise myriad, nearly-infinite forms of addiction - chemical, behavioral, relational, conceptual, and so on.
The dysfunctional, pathological addictions of certain types for which 12 Step programs are available, are simply the more severe manifestations of something every ego experiences to some degree.
quote:
Start it right away. This is my opinion.
I'm not sure if you caught this in Clear White Light's post, but he didn't express his issue as marijuana addiction, but rather worry about the possibility of marijuana addiction --- two very different things.
This distinction is what caused me to post as I did.
If Clear White Light had posted "I am addicted to marijuana, and I need help" -- I might have suggested 12 Step, too.
However, again, the issue was his worry/thinking about the possibility of addiction -- which is what caused several of us to respond from the view that the worry was the core issue.
As I said to Clear White Light in my original post:
If greater degree of addiction begins to present itself, then he may wish to re-evaluate addressing the addiction directly.
It actually seems, as I have already mentioned, that he is feeling less concerned about addiction, recently at least, per his more recent posts in this thread.
Note to Clear White Light: Any update?
quote:
Yogani is also supportive of the tweleve step program and advocates it for addictions.
So do I, per comments and link to my site, above.
quote:
"Rest easy, baby; rest easy; recognize it all as light and rainbows and be happy." It's absurd.
More "potentially helpful to anyone over-thinking something", I'd say.
"Rest easy" is never bad advice; it's in harmony with reality; even the most intense life situations can be experienced and addressed most effectively in the wholeness also known as "resting easy".
quote:
Again, I am talking from my own personal experience!
As am I.
quote:
Not from advaitic, vedantic or zen books.
Ditto.
quote:
Go to the 12 step program. I can not stress this any stronger. This is the best help available to come out of the vicious addictions and live peacefully with ourselves
For some, yes; not for all, as several of us have mentioned in this thread alone.
And, as I've said elsewhere, with reference to enlightenment / realizing our true nature --- the best path for each of us, is the one via which each of us awakens to our true nature.
This path can potentially be one of the many 12 Step programs, or AYP, or any other effective spiritual path -- or a combination -- or none of these, or even seemingly no path at all.
Life knows what it's doing.
The illusion of control is the only real obstacle .... and it's not real.
And this is one of the things that 12 Step programs do teach very effectively, for those who are willing.
AYP and other paths do, as well; of course -- via practices, surrender, devotion, inquiry, observation, presence, awareness -- in whatever our own custom combination of these things may be, we come to notice the way things actually are, as opposed to suffering from the distortions that our ideas about things created - aka unenlightenment.
I hope my comments are useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 21 2010 10:44:26 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2010 : 10:32:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
[quote]Originally posted by delta33
Sometimes it seems that struggle insulates us from truth.
Profound insight, that.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2010 : 10:45:32 PM
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Hi Ram
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
I do not know where your statistics are coming from. Provide the sources and prove them. I think they are not right.
My statistics are coming from AA itself as well as independent studies. If you watch the video (or read the first link) I posted in my last post it shows a screenshot of a 1989 internal AA report. In that report they say that the success rate of AA is 5%. If you think that they are higher, please provide YOUR sources. I can guarantee they aren't coming from AA themselves as they don't put out official statistics. And, you'd think that if AA DID have a high success rate that they would want to boast about it and provide the data. The fact that the data is either hidden or not collected at all is a pretty good indication of what is going on there. Just some food for thought.
Love!
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2010 : 07:08:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Note to Clear White Light: Any update?
Hi Kirtanman,
Lately I am feeling much better regarding this issue. As I've mentioned before, I realized that the vast majority of my "struggle" with this "problem" stemmed from allowing other peoples judgments and evaluations of my life get the best of me. This sent a cascading stream of self-depreciating judgments through my mind. I no longer question whether I have an addiction to marijuana. I simply recognize it as something I enjoy that I also tend to over indulge in at times. The same could be said for countless other things in my life. I overindulged my love for playing music as well, and I ended up giving myself chronic tendinitis in both arms.
There has definitely been a pattern of excess in my life. However, this has never expanded to the use of more dangerous or addictive substances, or any extreme measures being taken to ensure my ability to have marijuana on hand. I feel a 12 steps program would be rather ridiculous for someone like me, but I understand why someone may recommend it based on the tone of my original post. Especially the title of it, "Dealing with marijuana addiction."
For now I feel good to just let things be as they have been. I'm doing just fine, marijuana or not. I'll probably continue to smoke it on a regular basis until doing so becomes unconvienient, or until I feel some real motivation from within to abstain from it.
I drink coffee (or other highly caffeinated beverages) every day as well, but I don't feel the need to have an existential crisis over it. Why should I do so over marijuana instead? It is probably even less addictive and harmful to the body than caffeine, yet nobody gives anyone a hard time for their daily coffee use.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2010 : 12:58:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Note to Clear White Light: Any update?
Hi Kirtanman,
Lately I am feeling much better regarding this issue. As I've mentioned before, I realized that the vast majority of my "struggle" with this "problem" stemmed from allowing other peoples judgments and evaluations of my life get the best of me. This sent a cascading stream of self-depreciating judgments through my mind. I no longer question whether I have an addiction to marijuana. I simply recognize it as something I enjoy that I also tend to over indulge in at times. The same could be said for countless other things in my life. I overindulged my love for playing music as well, and I ended up giving myself chronic tendinitis in both arms.
There has definitely been a pattern of excess in my life. However, this has never expanded to the use of more dangerous or addictive substances, or any extreme measures being taken to ensure my ability to have marijuana on hand. I feel a 12 steps program would be rather ridiculous for someone like me, but I understand why someone may recommend it based on the tone of my original post. Especially the title of it, "Dealing with marijuana addiction."
For now I feel good to just let things be as they have been. I'm doing just fine, marijuana or not. I'll probably continue to smoke it on a regular basis until doing so becomes unconvienient, or until I feel some real motivation from within to abstain from it.
I drink coffee (or other highly caffeinated beverages) every day as well, but I don't feel the need to have an existential crisis over it. Why should I do so over marijuana instead? It is probably even less addictive and harmful to the body than caffeine, yet nobody gives anyone a hard time for their daily coffee use.
Awesome; thanks very much for the update -- and glad to hear your current perspective.
Good news!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2010 : 12:13:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
quote:
I feel a 12 steps program would be rather ridiculous for someone like me....[/br]
Clear White Light,
That statement sounds like either 12 steps program is beneath you, or you are above programs like 12 steps. May be I am misunderstanding. Can you please care to elaborate?
Regards,
Ram. |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 23 2010 12:20:39 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2010 : 1:35:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
quote:
I feel a 12 steps program would be rather ridiculous for someone like me....[/br]
Clear White Light,
That statement sounds like either 12 steps program is beneath you, or you are above programs like 12 steps. May be I am misunderstanding. Can you please care to elaborate?
Regards,
Ram.
I'm saying it would be excessive and unnecessary for me. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 01:50:44 AM
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Sure enough, as mentioned in the lessons, addiction has dropped away along the journey.
After smoking marijuana casually for about 6 years, I spent about another 3 years trying to quit - but smoking ever more heavily as time went on. Every time I tried to quite or moderate my use, I'd have some "success" but eventually I'd bounce back to the heavy use. The "success" came only at the price of great feats of will power and pitting mind against desire.
Finally, about 2 months ago (shortly after my earlier post on this topic about using in moderation), I stopped smoking out of the blue. It no longer felt good to me. About a week after that I decided not to ever do it again. And this time it was effortless. No mental division whatsoever. That's why I put "success" in quotations, because ultimately I didn't even have to try. Withdrawal was still present, but it was more like waiting through it, rather than wanting to go back.
I didn't notice any change in my experience of AYP practices since quitting. I certainly thought I would - that my inner light shined brighter when on drugs. So far I've found that to be untrue. Drugs seem to commonly be a spark for the process, but after a while perhaps they become unnecessary baggage.
In regards to the conversation of the thread: I think that addiction, in any form, is very heavy karma to be carrying around, some of the strongest out there. If the user isn't addicted, then I'd agree that the thoughts and evaluations regarding addiction are useless word games. Even if somebody is addicted though, worrying about it is just adding to the baggage - as I mentioned above, when it's time to quit, the habit falls away effortlessly. Forcing it never worked, despite hundreds of tries.
As clarification, here's the difference between the two. For years, I thought to myself "Look at all the negative effects marijuana use is having on my life, I should really quit." But I still enjoyed smoking, so I was always resisting my desire to smoke. And ultimately, we move in the direction of our desires, and I would smoke again. Then eventually the wave crested. I no longer even enjoyed smoking. My last hit was not a ceremonious final toke. It was a hit after which I said, "wow, that was pointless." So the mindframe that ultimately led to quitting was that I thought to myself "gee, I don't feel like smoking marijuana." The actual desire was gone. |
Edited by - JDH on Oct 14 2010 04:13:21 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 08:24:39 AM
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Awesome!!!!
Amazing when that inner shift happens isn't it?
Thanks for sharing JDH!!! |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2010 : 12:18:05 PM
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@those for whom the experience of cannabis is still a reference point, meaning the "best or highest state to what they can surrender to and find peace into":
I too had many tests, with all kind of substances. The reason why nothing could hold and satisfy me: another substance was much better than the one before. And the best was timely limited, meaning it could only be done once per ~ two weeks because the body gets used to it heavily and the resistance drops after about this time frame. And yeah, when the best among all substances can't give you what you want, what then? =P All the rest dropped automatically.
As JDH pointed it out, the moment the substance feels like a joke in cause and effect because you know infinitely better things, how long can it attract you? I know this is a completely different approach, as it happened to me because of the one single question " God, what is the best (concerning all and everything that can be done, to reach, to find or to be or whatever...)"... But I am sure it could also help for those who just don't have any OTHER perspective to their situation.
Here a brief story how it started and developed for me and some friends who were curious about what life has to offer and up to this point hold in secret for us. After hundreds of books, websites about spirituality, human possibilities, substances and practices, different peoples lives etc, one thing became fully clear: We have to do it on our own and find out on our own what is true, what is the best of best...
As little school boys, we came to two conclusions how to find the answers: 1. Awaken kundalini, bring it up with full force and 2. enter nomind to reach that field of all knowledge and have the highest possible perspective known to us so far..
Our journey:
1. Start with mula bandha and aswini mudra EN MASSE...
1.1 Start with trataka EN MASSE to stop the mind...
2. Where do we get all the substances to ADD and to make it even faster...
3. First try, the most known classic aka cannabis..
3.1 Some interesting and good effects, some nomind states, some kundalini experiences, but also all the side effects, numbness, wishlessness to reach anything including the highest perspective..
4. Next try magical shrooms..
4.1 Whooosh WHAT A REVELATION! First conclusion, Cannabis is a joke in comparison in ALL aspects, meaning healthwise, sideeffects and actual effects.
4.2 Those little funghis opened up the doors to infinite insights per second, opening heartfelt love and joy, understanding of anyhing and especially how to go on spiritually. The clear perception that these timely limited trip is just the initiator to reach this permanently and that it is possible!!!
4.3 Cannabis --> no love, heart is blocked strongly, shrooms dont have this problem, totally the opposite: nondual perceptions like nothing before. We could associate the opening to a very strong sixth chakra opening directly in the center of the headspace. Back then we didn't know that there was a center.
4.4 Two problems with shrooms: you can just use it every 1-2 weeks and even then the effects got less and less... and it creates some discomfort in the belly due to other substances that are not soo easily digested.. but still much much better healthwise in comparison and infinitly better in effects...
5. The next test: the one god-substance found from A. Hoffmann called LSD...
5.1 We had very high hopes as we had read amazing trip reports including total ego dissolution with high "success rate"..
5.2 Friend made the first testing, me sitting him and helping as we knew that beyond mind and body control some1 with everything working would be handy..
5.3 Friends trip lasted 12+ hours and he was blissed out in such a way that after many many hours of absolutely nomind and no movement he said: forget everything else...
5.4 Absolutely no physical side effects, the cleanest and most smooth opening into infinity, so was the first conclusion..
5.5 Next acid trip, we both were at a girlfriends house. She knowing nothing, just giving us a place to be free from every other concern..
5.6 Friend and me starting meditating aka no mind and trataka to this or that object.. at the same time mula bandha and aswini mudra like there is no tommorrow... both are rdy to die for the best of best, whatever it may be..
5.7 Fffects start after about 45 mins, the first "uh, what was that sudden deepening of silent awareness together with bliss and increased perception of space".. "oooky, it seems to start...". Plants start dancing and immense joy is increasing. Ring ring, mother is calling "boy, all right, where are you? - Don't worry Ma, we skipped school today and are going to a party with a girl, will be back very late most probably - *loughing Ma* ok my son, be carefull - thanks Ma, I love you".. Yeah, the grace of the godly mother was with us too from that moment on which was about 10 a.m.
5.8 At that moment at least I could have never known that behind "party" something true was hidden. "party with god"...
5.9 The effects started like with magic shrooms but then increased so much faster in expanding time and space, opening veil after veil. Kundalini started rising, we started shaking sitting next by next on a couch. Mula bandha + intuitiv breahing in and holding the breath started for both of us.
5.9.1 Kundalini presses at our necks, can't get in. We know this is the last moments we are looking outside. Last bye bye through our eyes looking into one another.
5.9.2 The tripsitting girl dancing for us, colours and space morph, time freezes, everything dissolves into our headcenter, kundalini enters through the breainstem into the head with full force.
5.9.2.1 Inner worlds open up, one by one ever more blissed and refined..
5.9.2.1.1 Trying to stop it all...
5.9.2.1.2 Totally unable to control or stop it...total surrender...
5.9.2.1.2.1 Total stop...
5.9.2.1.2.1.0....
5.9.3 *5 million years later* Where am I, what am I, how can it be...that I am... god?..."exploding endless inner joy and love"...
5.9.4 Time again starts, but so slowly... one second dance for the girl --> thousand years of unending bliss for me... how can this be...
5.9.5 Everything is visible on all levels, past, present, future, infinity...everything dissolves in me, everything comes out of me. How does it come that I don't know anything about me? Who am I, can this really be? God does not know anything about himself, is this possible?
5.9.6 Check with the "real clock" shows that 2 hours had past, but we were already many million years old, in fact time had lost any meaning forever...
5.9.7 I am god, how can then my friend be god too? Total paradox and laughter without ending.. Divine laughter, infinitely deep love and joy..
5.9.8 Doors of knowledge and wisdom are open, we know everything and the only question that is to solve: "How to merge this with normal living?"..
5.9.8.1 The next 10 hours all possible is done to find an answer to this alone, how to merge the circle with the triangle..
5.9.8.2 The solution must be natural, independent of everything else..
5.9.8.3 The question who am I still remains.. no answer ever possible?...
5.9.8.4 The problem of infinite realizations per second become a problem for the mind... it is untranslatable... stopping the mind and remaining in infinite bliss is still too attractive but becomes less and less easy with every passing hour...
5.9.9 New friends come, friends unendingly.. all seem to be attracted by us, even though no one understands what we are talking about, they are listening with intense attention...
5.9.9.1 Everyone is consuming different kinds of substances en masse. We both are totally content for the rest of infinity and start having intense compassion for all. They all are seeking the one same thing, no one ever finding it, in whatever substance they seek... We start talking with our own creation ( we are still both the ONE god, the paradox goes on...)
5.9.9.2 All want the love and joy that comes from within, are we so lucky that life brought us to this point to see that nothing else can end the endless searching? We knew that gracefully we had a glimpse of our own infinity and yet we knew that we can't stay in it, the mind knows trickily how to start the cheat. Trust and surrender to the coming back with the promise "one day I'm back again and then forever"... Can you trust these intuitive promise? The love and joy continues so what can we do..
From that point on, 6 years ago now, even though I tested other substances afterwards as well, like salvia, weed again, mescaline, alc and nicotine, lsa, again shrooms... nothing satisfied anymore.. Nothing ever came nearly as close... So hey, spiritual practices automatically became the new focus, now with even more intensity.
And what I can say so far is, naturally through pranayama and meditation you can enter your own infinity as often as you want totally free from anything else + it is much more clean and pure and continuous.
Sry it got so long. In short: as long as the chocolate you are eating is the highest and best in your life, how can you ever quit it? Only if something better appears, the chocolate dropps out of itself. For me all the substances dropped so fast as shrooms and then LSD was totally unparalleled in all aspects. But still totally unacceptable =P
My friend while still in god-mode took a cigarette and then the nearer he came to inhalation (infinite realizations per second..) he suddenly threw it away and stopped smoking since then..
Don't know if this helps, just another perspective to this topic.
Wish you the best :)
Edit: Oh yeah, all this I did in my dreams =) |
Edited by - Holy on Nov 01 2010 1:36:40 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2010 : 01:57:11 AM
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Holy,
As the fine musician J.J. Cale sings: "Travelin' light is the only way to fly."
I completely identify with your story, and your logical tracing of the inevitable failure of seeking the infinite being in pill form. I've been sober for four months now--no alcohol, caffeine, tobacco, or even psychedelics. I took that substance use trip for over ten years, and so glad I'm through with that volatile, dependent state of being.
So, here's to travelin' light, with our God-given, fully-functioning, incredibly dynamic, naturally high nervous systems. |
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