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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 23 2010 : 11:47:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I was a vegetarian for 11 years. I was very physically sick because of this. After starting AYP I decided I wanted to "be well", so I started eating meat again. I have never been healthier.
Love!
That is wonderful! If your own inner conscience has no issues with it and you do not end up with remorse, then go ahead and do it (If you feel that is the right way for you!)
As Yogani states, the guru is in us. As long as the inner guru is okay with the action, we should be fine.
Regards,
Ram. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2010 : 12:29:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
That is wonderful! If your own inner conscience has no issues with it and you do not end up with remorse, then go ahead and do it (If you feel that is the right way for you!)
 I know it is a "necessary evil" at least for a time. I'm just doing whatever I am inclined to do and trying not to judge myself too much. I know that I will likely be a vegetarian again someday, but it will happen when/if the time is right.
Love!
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2010 : 1:32:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
That is wonderful! If your own inner conscience has no issues with it and you do not end up with remorse, then go ahead and do it (If you feel that is the right way for you!)
I know it is a "necessary evil" at least for a time. I'm just doing whatever I am inclined to do and trying not to judge myself too much. I know that I will likely be a vegetarian again someday, but it will happen when/if the time is right.
Love!
Yes, I completely agree on the "necessary evils". Only we know our situation and what is best for us.
Valmiki wanted to write the story of a hero who was a perfect man and followed dharma all the time. Thus came Rama's story (Ramayana). Rama never did any adharma, that's the gist of his story. He left the kingdom and went to forest without a second thought to uphold dharma. The whole story of Rama is to illustrate and provide us with an example of a Hero who followed dharma even on testing times.
But, that same Rama sent an arrow and killed Vali (The monkey king), from hiding behind a tree. This is a great point of debate in Rama's story to this day. Why did Rama, who is an embodiment of dharma engage in an act that would be considered cowardly and completely wrong. I see it as a "necessary evil" that had to be done at the time.
Regards,
Ram. |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 24 2010 1:50:26 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2010 : 1:56:13 PM
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This is where I see the truth of there being no absolute "right and wrongs".... It may be wrong to kill an animal for food in some instances for some people (like when there is plenty of option and it isn't doing harm to oneself by being a strict vegan), but for others it isn't wrong because it is necessary for one reason or another. This to me is where "sefl-judgment" comes into play. From my perspective, karma is created by self-judgments. When we do something, even inspite our internal inclination to judge it as "wrong," we incur negative karma. But if we lose the self-judgment around the action (and I mean REALLY lose the self-judgment not just "trick" ourselves into THINKING we have lost the self-judgment) and just act according to our inclination, we do not incur karma...positive OR negative. So when living from a place of "no-judgment" karma is seen as an illusion. This is my perspective on this anyways. Always subject to change at any moment 
Love!
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2010 : 3:06:20 PM
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For the sake of clarity for others reading this thread, I'd like to point out that a balanced vegetarian diet and a balanced vegan diet are perfectly healthy.
From vegan.org:
In its 1996 position paper on vegetarian diets, the American Dietetic Association reported that vegan and vegetarian diets can significantly reduce one's risk of contracting heart disease, colon and lung cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and a number of other debilitating conditions. Cows' milk contains ideal amounts of fat and protein for young calves, but far too much for humans. And eggs are higher in cholesterol than any other food, making them a leading contributor to cardiovascular disease.
And I follow a vegan diet, and am very healthy on it
I realise this isn't really the point of this thread, but thought it worth mentioning.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2010 : 3:28:06 PM
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Sure... of course it's totally possible to be a healthy vegan/vegetarian. I wasn't though. I didn't have the time, ambition or knowledge to be a healthy vegetarian. I stopped eating meat because I felt it was ethically wrong...but I didn't have the time or ambition (not to mention I REALLY hated cooking) to figure out how to be a healthy vegetarian. I just ate whatever didn't have meat in it and took a lot of suppliments. The only time I ate meat was when I went through the personal trauma of catching, killing and preparing an animal myself (only managed to do this twice in 11 years). So yes, it's possible to be a healthy vegan/vegetarian, but it isn't (IMO) necessary to be vegan/vegetarian in order to live a liberated existence. It's just a personal preference IMO.
Love!
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 11:52:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
to say that Ramana Maharishi, Adyashanti, and Nisargadatta said it is okay to eat meat, or it does not matter either way. Therefore it is okay for any one to eat meat is not acceptable to me.
Hi Ram,
No worries; you've made your opinions quite clear (as far as having nothing further to discuss on this issue).
I just wanted to clarify, per the point above, that none of the teachers you named above, nor I, am giving any specific advice regarding a vegetarian diet.
I support and agree with Yogani's statements on the matter, 100%.
The context of my citing what those teachers had to say, was per the original focus of this thread, which was the stated opinion that vegetarianism is an absolute requirement of some kind.
My point, if nothing else, was simply that not everyone agrees with this - including some highly-respected teachers, such as those I cited, and including Yogani (in my view, Ramana, Nisargadatta and Adyashanti were not saying anything different, in substance, than what Yogani has said, or than what I am saying).
In the case of Adyashanti and Nisargadatta, the context was someone (effectively) saying to each of them: "You're enlightened! You shouldn't eat meat!"
To which their simple and truthful response was: "I do eat meat."
(In each of those cases.)
In the case of Ramana (who I'm presuming was vegetarian, being South Indian), he said that a vegetarian diet is helpful before realization, and not necessary after, because of the fact that prior to realization, steadying of the mind is what is needed -- and this is specifically what a vegetarian diet helps one to do.
As Patanjali said: "Yogash citta vrtti nirodhah" - yoga (oneness, wholeness) is the cessation of mind-unsteadiness. (Yoga Sutras 1.2)
I'm not asking you to agree in any way, by the way; I simply wanted to clarify what I had actually said the teachers I quoted had said - none of them implied "eating meat is okay for anyone to do" .... which is an important point, because realized teachers such as the three we're discussing, tend not to make any "should" or "shouldn't" types of pronouncements.
With openness and sincerity, each of us can recognize what is right for us at any given time, and flow with it harmoniously - including whatever specifics of diet may be adopted at any given time.
I hope this is useful, and I do appreciate your comments. As I've said to others, in other threads - a bit of dialog from different viewpoints can be good, because anyone reading can see more than one perspective -- as is the case here.
And I agree fully with you, regarding that we're all a community here, and all here to support one another; you and I just have a bit of a different view on some of the specifics, which is a dynamic that can be helpful for all of us, as long as we all remember that we're all on the same side, and inherently here to help one another.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 25 2010 11:58:11 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 5:11:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
What about love? How does that fit into the picture? How does it affect the way we treat animals?
Christi
Hi Christi,
You described it well in a recent post in this thread:
"there is a melting down into the heart. This is the rise of compassion and divine love (love which does not place any conditions on it's existence)."
The movement of wholeness is love, which manifests as a harmony with, and a loving of, what is - all of what is - not as a separate being evaluating the loving - but simply being the loving, the natural harmonious flowing.
Some people eat meat (animals), others do not. Some feel drawn to eliminate meat (animals) from their diet, others do not. Some feel drawn to engage in activism to reduce the suffering of animals, or to help raise awareness regarding the suffering of animals produced for food, and others do not.
Some waves in the ocean wave north, some wave south - and neither set is going the wrong direction, because there isn't one.
I would say that love is the willingness to let life flow unimpeded.
I hope that clarifies my perspective; please let me know if not.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Kirtanman,
What do you make of verse 5:20 of Jesus's "Sermon on the mount"?
" 5:20 For I say unto you, That unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
And what do you make of the first Yama in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, Ahimsa? If there is no universal right or wrong for all spiritual aspirants, what is it there for?
Christi |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 8:34:07 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
What do you make of verse 5:20 of Jesus's "Sermon on the mount"?
" 5:20 For I say unto you, That unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
I interpret that as "unless your consciousness is less bound by the dream of egoic limitation (than that of the scribes and pharisees, who are enslaved to the dream of ideas equalling reality), you will not know the fulfillment of your inherent liberation, in experience."
quote:
And what do you make of the first Yama in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, Ahimsa? If there is no universal right or wrong for all spiritual aspirants, what is it there for?
Christi
In a similar manner to the Bible verse you asked about, I would say that ahimsa - non-harming .... can serve as an inherent orientation toward a more reality-based consciousness; more inclusive, more whole.
Only the dream of ego feels opposition, or an interest in harming.
If ahmisa was meant to be universal, I would think that more guidelines than simply "non-harming" would have been given; the specifics were left up to practitioners and gurus - not all of whom interpreted ahimsa the same way, by a long shot.
It might be worth noting that Kashmir Shaivism teaches Satanga - six limbs of yoga - rather than Ashtanga - eight limbs - because the Yamas and Niyamas are specifically not included.
Much like AYP, Kashmir Shaivism sees development of the so-called Yamas and Niyamas as primarily being a result of practices - not a prerequisite, and certainly not the priority.
"Do whatever you want, and meditate." as Swami Lakshmanjoo said.
Presuming your question relates to the discussion of vegetarianism, vis a vis killing of animals, per our post exchange in this thread so far, here's some insight from Yogani, in lesson 305, that I found applicable:
"Is it necessary to become a strict vegetarian to achieve good health, and be suitably prepared for yoga practices such as deep meditation?
No, it isn’t. All of the suggestions given above can be acted upon within a diet regimen that includes meat and dairy products. It is only a matter of eating in moderation, and favoring the basic guidelines as best we can without throwing our personal preferences out the window. There is no black or white in this. While it seems to be human nature to believe it is so, few things in life are all or nothing."
By the way, speaking of Swami Lakshmanjoo, he was (very unusually, for a Kashmiri Shaivite) a very strict vegetarian; he wouldn't visit the home of someone if meat had been consumed within two weeks of his visit.
You know I respect Swami Lakshmanjoo greatly.
He was a strict vegetarian.
I'm not vegetarian.
At a certain point in our opening/awakening, as I'm pretty sure you know -- we become inherently confident in however life unfolds in our experience -- in a very different way than doubt-producing thinking could ever create.
Obviously, as Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them" ... if the effects of this confidence are a sort of personal anarchy, producing chaos all around ... then maybe it's not the dynamic I'm describing.
However, if life unfolds ever more beautifully, peacefully, inclusively and consciously -- well, I would say that this comes from dropping any limited view, and trusting life to live us perfectly - which, in my experience it always does, when we let it.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 25 2010 8:41:53 PM |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 10:24:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And I agree fully with you, regarding that we're all a community here, and all here to support one another; you and I just have a bit of a different view on some of the specifics, which is a dynamic that can be helpful for all of us, as long as we all remember that we're all on the same side, and inherently here to help one another.
Kirtanman,
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts over the years in AYP. I wholeheartedly agree that we are all here to support one another (oops, 'one another', dvaita ). And yes, I know that we are on the same side.
Regards,
Ram. |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2010 : 06:21:42 AM
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Looking at this from here, it seems to me there is only one question worth asking about the eating of animals and fish:
Is it kind?
Paul McCartney is credited with saying "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everybody would be vegetarian".
It's not a question of whether one can realise enlightenment (or whatever term is the flavour du jour) - without being vegetarian, it seems clear that it can be done. But still, the question remains:
Is it kind? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2010 : 4:08:43 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks for the answers. So would you agree that there are some forms of behaviour that can be useful to someone who is practicing yoga? If Ramana Maharshi is right then vegetarianism could be one of them?
One more question...
quote:
quote:
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And these lofty advaitic notions are not useful for every one and every situation in my opinion.
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I understand. I respectfully disagree.
"Advaitic notions" are some of the clearest indicators, regarding the wholeness we actually are, and so, there can be a deep resonance with them; they can be a powerful aspect of the map home, even at early stages.
What makes you believe that "Advaitic notions... can be a powerful aspect of the map home... even at early stages"? Do you have any evidence that it is true?
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Sep 26 2010 4:57:43 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2010 : 5:02:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by amoux
Looking at this from here, it seems to me there is only one question worth asking about the eating of animals and fish:
Is it kind?
Paul McCartney is credited with saying "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everybody would be vegetarian".
It's not a question of whether one can realise enlightenment (or whatever term is the flavour du jour) - without being vegetarian, it seems clear that it can be done. But still, the question remains:
Is it kind?
Hi Amoux,
I think that is certainly something which we should consider. Is it kind? The animals themselves are so often left out of the debate on vegetarianism, and it often tends to focus more on health issues for humans.
A sign of the depth of the fall perhaps?
Christi |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2010 : 8:51:36 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks for the answers. So would you agree that there are some forms of behaviour that can be useful to someone who is practicing yoga? If Ramana Maharshi is right then vegetarianism could be one of them?
Yes.
I appreciate the way you phrased your question - which allowed me to answer in the affirmative.
"Can be useful" - Yes, definitely.
In fact, "net net" - it might be a powerful enough resource and support for the body-mind, prior to realization, that's it's worth at least seriously considering.
I never seriously considered it - but for all I know, I might have made things a bit easier on myself, if I had.
My comments in this thread weren't so much tied to vegetarianism per se, but more about the conceptual bondage we can create when we make an empirical right or wrong out of something.
To say "this way is absolutely right, and that way is absolutely wrong" simply causes thinking-mind to constrict around itself in ways that are essentially counter-productive to yoga (the practice and the result).
It's not the behavior that's of consummate importance - it's how much, or how little artificial conceptuality is utilized in evaluating our behavior (or that of others).
As Yogani says in various ways - a powerful key is simply to be easy with it all; that's all I was saying.
quote:
One more question...
quote:
quote:
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And these lofty advaitic notions are not useful for every one and every situation in my opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand. I respectfully disagree.
"Advaitic notions" are some of the clearest indicators, regarding the wholeness we actually are, and so, there can be a deep resonance with them; they can be a powerful aspect of the map home, even at early stages.
What makes you believe that "Advaitic notions... can be a powerful aspect of the map home... even at early stages"? Do you have any evidence that it is true?
Christi
Not a lot, so far - but enough to make that statement.
Especially on Facebook, a lot of the discussions take place with people from all levels of spiritual practice, or lack thereof, and some of the more straightforward advaitic teachings regarding mind, concepts, memory, imagination, etc. --- seem to be fairly easily understood by many people in ways that seem to help their clarity, which can only help to abbreviate their sadhana, I would say.
And, by the way, when I say "advaita" - I'm not talking about philosophy, but rather pragmatic tips concerning removing barriers to awareness of wholeness (aka advaita, non-duality) that's always already here.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 26 2010 8:53:20 PM |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2010 : 08:59:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I think that is certainly something which we should consider. Is it kind? The animals themselves are so often left out of the debate on vegetarianism, and it often tends to focus more on health issues for humans.
A sign of the depth of the fall perhaps?
Christi - 'the fall' isn't ringing any bells with me, unless you mean the Fall of Man?
Firstly, though, I agree with the general feeling that the decision to be vegetarian or not is a personal one. I'm vegan, as mentioned above, and married to a meat-eater. That choice doesn't affect my love for my spouse in any way at all. That being said, I do have a few observations to make.
As to considering animals, yes indeed, we need to do so. So let me be an advocate for them:
Animals are sentient beings. Biologically, they are our relatives - we have the same source code Would we eat the dead body of a family member? Maybe a distant cousin that we didn't see that often? Is the idea not repugnant? The wonder (to me) is that it is not equally repugnant to eat the flesh of another sentient being.
The commodification of animals, raised as a cash crop to kill and eat, when there are so many alternatives for our nourishment, seems to me indicative of a deep chasm of separation, and a non-recognition of the oneness of life. The way we exploit animals as a food source is a peculiarly cruel form of enslavement (with no possibility of manumission).
So, for those of us living in samsara, it really boils down to our willingness to see the suffering - to look it in the face - and decided whether we will add to it, or do our best to ameliorate it. And, again, of course this will be a personal decision.
Getting off my soapbox now 
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2010 : 4:18:28 PM
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Hi Amoux,
quote:
Christi - 'the fall' isn't ringing any bells with me, unless you mean the Fall of Man?
Yes, I was referring to the "Fall of Man".
quote:
So, for those of us living in samsara, it really boils down to our willingness to see the suffering - to look it in the face - and decided whether we will add to it, or do our best to ameliorate it. And, again, of course this will be a personal decision.
That must be a decision for everyone to make, not only those living in samsara.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2010 : 6:32:27 PM
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Hi Amoux,
p.s.
The Genesis account of human meat eating describes humans as originally being vegetarian and only beginning to eat meat after the great flood when they were punished for their sins against God.
This is Genesis 1:29 and 1:30 from before the flood:
" Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so."
And this is the account from after the flood: (Genesis 9:2 and 9:3):
"The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."
Hence my reference to the fall.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2010 : 7:03:11 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
Not a lot, so far - but enough to make that statement.
Especially on Facebook, a lot of the discussions take place with people from all levels of spiritual practice, or lack thereof, and some of the more straightforward advaitic teachings regarding mind, concepts, memory, imagination, etc. --- seem to be fairly easily understood by many people in ways that seem to help their clarity, which can only help to abbreviate their sadhana, I would say.
And, by the way, when I say "advaita" - I'm not talking about philosophy, but rather pragmatic tips concerning removing barriers to awareness of wholeness (aka advaita, non-duality) that's always already here.
Thanks for clarifying all that.
Christi |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2010 : 06:21:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christie
quote:
So, for those of us living in samsara, it really boils down to our willingness to see the suffering - to look it in the face - and decided whether we will add to it, or do our best to ameliorate it. And, again, of course this will be a personal decision.
That must be a decision for everyone to make, not only those living in samsara.
Christi
Well said - I could not agree more.
And thanks for the clarification about the fall |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2010 : 08:40:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
And this is the account from after the flood: (Genesis 9:2 and 9:3):
"The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."
Hence my reference to the fall.
Christi
I remember watching a documentary on Discovery channel (based on a true story) where a group got stranded on a lifeboat in the ocean.
A few weeks later they became hallucinated / crazy with hunger and started eating each other.
I wonder if we all fell the same way during the big flood.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2010 : 9:47:37 PM
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Hi Ram,
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And I agree fully with you, regarding that we're all a community here, and all here to support one another; you and I just have a bit of a different view on some of the specifics, which is a dynamic that can be helpful for all of us, as long as we all remember that we're all on the same side, and inherently here to help one another.
Kirtanman,
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts over the years in AYP. I wholeheartedly agree that we are all here to support one another.
Thanks for the kind words, I concur.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2010 : 7:39:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Thanks for clarifying all that.
Christi
Hi Christi - you're welcome.
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2011 : 07:45:54 AM
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I watched 'War of the Worlds' (Tom Cruise) yesterday and it reminded me of this thread.
Aliens planted us (Humans) on this planet and once the population was sufficient, they came down for harvesting.
The earth looked like a bluddy human poultry farm. Aliens were putting humans in cages and drinking our blood/marrow like juice.
Sounds gross?
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2011 : 02:49:44 AM
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vegetarian diet is very helpful for yoga practices...even Ramana Mahrashi insisted on it...
but i agree with Carson's quote:"From my perspective, karma is created by self-judgments. When we do something, even inspite our internal inclination to judge it as "wrong," we incur negative karma. But if we lose the self-judgment around the action (and I mean REALLY lose the self-judgment not just "trick" ourselves into THINKING we have lost the self-judgment) and just act according to our inclination, we do not incur karma...positive OR negative. "
.
just do what you are intuitively inclined to do and totally and i mean totally forget about it... |
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Vegetarian or non-Vegetarian
