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Pheel
China
318 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 28 2010 : 04:27:32 AM
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Hi fellow aypers,
I know roughly what is going on with the following experience, but it’s a bit more complicated and it’d be laminated, if you could shed light on it.
I have been having automatic spine movements for roughly 2 months now; usually there is automatic yoga poses of different kind in my resting period, lasting 10-30mins, this has been going on for 3 months. In the past week, neck movements reduced and I felt that prana went into my head. My tongue was pulled out and folded downward toward the chin, and then rolled back to the soft palate. This is accompanied by neck moving back and forth, mouth opening and closing. Besides this, I have eyes suddenly opened during meditation and in the resting period. And I made strange sounds.
After a session with a lot of tongue rolling in the resting period, when I was sitting up, I felt very dizzy inside, as if some currents was gushing from the pipe of my spine into the head and flushes my brain spinning. Other time it’s fine, the worst time is usually when I laid down or sit up. Do they sound like I understand signs of kundalini awakening, and/or purification, or indications of something wrong in my practice?
Today, I slept one hour after morning session. And when I napped in the afternoon, there was a bomb-like sensation near the top of the head when I was sleeping, and I was awakened. So, my questions are: is this bomb-like thing purification, or is there something wrong? And, can the automatic yoga overload the practice? I have been trusting this automatic yoga and let it happen. I have no control over what and how much “practice” would happen in my resting period. Usually it will have me sit up and open my eyes when it finishes. Please shed light on this! Thank you and good luck with your practice!
Phil
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Edited by - Pheel on Jun 29 2010 05:13:15 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2010 : 3:38:09 PM
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| People connect every simple energy phenomenon with kundalini. Kundalini has been watered down so much it is barely recognizable. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2010 : 6:45:57 PM
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| Have these movements only been happening since starting practices? Was there something precipitating them? They sound extreme to me so knowing the cause would help. Definitely sounds like overlode so if it is caused by practices you would want to scale them back and also pay particular attention with senistivity to the subtle form of your practice so that you are not forcing any energy but feeling the subtlety of the breath. |
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Pheel
China
318 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2010 : 11:46:40 PM
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Hi Victor,
Thank you for the reply. It started three months ago, a few days just after I took on pranayama. Then one night I had this wave like thing going through my body, especially limbs and started to do big body movements. After that, it is more or less there. But I never had this kind of things happen before I started ayp, or before I start my daily sessions.
I took on pranayama 2 months after DM, because I had previous premature kundalini symptoms when I practiced qigong when I was young. (left-right imbalance) This might be one of the causes of the nervous system disease which caused my legs to be paralyzed for a while. and I link the leg movements after I took pranayama with this.
the neck movements started to happen in deep meditation about 2 months ago. but the dramatic movements in resting period sounds similar to what happened after I took pranayama. (I started ayp abt 7months ago)
I think I might need to check with my pranayama. I feel sometimes I am forcing a bit to make the feeling (of warmth) to go up with my inhale. while downward moving is easy, upward/inhale is a bit harder. I also don't know what to do with the sections in my spine where it is hard to pass through. Please let me know if there is anything wrong with my pranayama. Thanks!
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Edited by - Pheel on Jun 29 2010 05:31:49 AM |
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Kriyaban
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 10:43:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Philaboston
Hi Victor,
Thank you for the reply. It started three months ago, a few days just after I took on pranayama. Then one night I had this wave like thing going through my body, especially limbs and started to do big body movements. After that, it is more or less there. But I never had this kind of things happen before I started ayp, or before I start my daily sessions.
I took on pranayama 2 months after DM, because I had previous premature kundalini symptoms when I practiced qigong when I was young. (left-right imbalance) This might be one of the causes of the nervous system disease which caused my legs to be paralyzed for a while. and I link the leg movements after I took pranayama with this.
the neck movements started to happen in deep meditation about 2 months ago. but the dramatic movements in resting period sounds similar to what happened after I took pranayama. (I started ayp abt 7months ago)
I think I might need to check with my pranayama. I feel sometimes I am forcing a bit to make the feeling (of warmth) to go up with my inhale. while downward moving is easy, upward/inhale is a bit harder. I also don't know what to do with the sections in my spine where it is hard to pass through. Please let me know if there is anything wrong with my pranayama. Thanks!
I think you should get EVERYTHING checked. LOL no really, you should have someone that can help and guide you. this is the proper way. when things happen, even if it isnt really Kundalini, which may or may not be the ones you are experiencing, then your practice is what should be looked at. many people practice by themselves and from books and sites and this is one of the main culprits to having the experiences you are. I have read many accounts on different forums of such and almost all are NOT what they think it is. so first things first, get your practiced checked by someone. actual sit there and show them what you are doing. i dont feel like you have someone and therefore thats why you are posting here for advice, which is fine, but it really should be looked at in person so you both can understand whats going on and what you may be doing incorrectly. if it were just sweating, twitches and the like then thats one thing and is normal as you pass thru different stages. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 12:19:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kriyaban
quote:
Originally posted by Philaboston
Hi Victor,
Thank you for the reply. It started three months ago, a few days just after I took on pranayama. Then one night I had this wave like thing going through my body, especially limbs and started to do big body movements. After that, it is more or less there. But I never had this kind of things happen before I started ayp, or before I start my daily sessions.
I took on pranayama 2 months after DM, because I had previous premature kundalini symptoms when I practiced qigong when I was young. (left-right imbalance) This might be one of the causes of the nervous system disease which caused my legs to be paralyzed for a while. and I link the leg movements after I took pranayama with this.
the neck movements started to happen in deep meditation about 2 months ago. but the dramatic movements in resting period sounds similar to what happened after I took pranayama. (I started ayp abt 7months ago)
I think I might need to check with my pranayama. I feel sometimes I am forcing a bit to make the feeling (of warmth) to go up with my inhale. while downward moving is easy, upward/inhale is a bit harder. I also don't know what to do with the sections in my spine where it is hard to pass through. Please let me know if there is anything wrong with my pranayama. Thanks!
I think you should get EVERYTHING checked. LOL no really, you should have someone that can help and guide you. this is the proper way. when things happen, even if it isnt really Kundalini, which may or may not be the ones you are experiencing, then your practice is what should be looked at. many people practice by themselves and from books and sites and this is one of the main culprits to having the experiences you are. I have read many accounts on different forums of such and almost all are NOT what they think it is. so first things first, get your practiced checked by someone. actual sit there and show them what you are doing. i dont feel like you have someone and therefore thats why you are posting here for advice, which is fine, but it really should be looked at in person so you both can understand whats going on and what you may be doing incorrectly. if it were just sweating, twitches and the like then thats one thing and is normal as you pass thru different stages.
Hi Kriyaban, Philaboston & All,
I'm a kriyaban as well, though I don't really think of myself in those terms (or any others  ) these days. For those who may not know, having your practice checked by someone more experienced (who is also an initiated kriyaban) is a part of the kriya yoga tradition. Especially with respect to some of the more observable aspects of kriya practice, this can be very useful.
However, it applies less to AYP for a few reasons, primarily connected with the fact that there's much less about the specifics of AYP Spinal Breathing and Deep Meditation, along with complementary practices (i.e. khechari mudra) that are observable (in comparison to kriya, and certain other, yogic systems and practices).
And so, while I genuinely appreciate your input, Kriyaban, and know the value of having kriya practice checked in my own experience, I respectfully disagree that this advice applies to AYP, or to Philaboston's experiences and questions.
One of the most powerful facets of AYP is that correct practice can, for the most part, be verified by anyone, per review of the applicable AYP Lessons.
For any additional questions anyone may have, and/or for additional clarification and practice support, that's literally what this forum, the AYP Support Forum, is here for.
I've never seen any sign that the AYP system, or our online-only approach, is any less effective than any other system or approach, and I have both seen and experienced that AYP can be dramatically more effective than many other systems and approaches.
Point Being: not all online-only yogic/spiritual information, and especially not all online-only practice support is "created equal". What you suggested about the weaknesses of online support, Kriyaban, may be true, and likely is true, of certain other online support for practices, but does not apply to AYP.
Simply Put: Posting here, as Philaboston did, along with review of related lessons if that is needed, is exactly the way to have his practice checked, in AYP.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 29 2010 12:22:44 PM |
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Kriyaban
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 3:48:17 PM
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I agree with what you said about the AYP site and it does apply to it less. It is great to have a forum and site with such information on it and it is indeed useful. There are times where a teacher is necessary though and not one just on the internet. LOL Reading lessons and practicing them is good in some ways, feed back from forums designed for it is of help as well. Its just the point you made that there isnt specifics is one reason to have a personal, physcial relationship.
The traditional manner of study for eons has been teacher/student (read Guru/Disciple) and a DIRECT relationship, regardless of whether one practices Kriya or not,it pertains to the Yogic methods in General regardless of what it is that you are practicing. Its the Guru ParamPara way. It has been spoken about in the Gita, its the whole gist of it as a matter of fact, and is mentioned in the Upanishads. it is unacceptable in the traditional lineages for anything else. so the statement in any meaning isnt correct, except of course in regards to this site and practicing the the techniques contained within it.
In the western world we change things, even if we are seeking to make things better. Many times the changes cannot help. For this reason I suggested that he needs to find someone that can see what is going on. Talking about it here is one reason this site was designed i am sure and is helpful in getting feedback. and there are lessons as you mentioned but if one is doing the Yogic methods for spiritual pursuits then its an absolute must in my opinion to have a direct relationship of some type physcially. You can learn Hatha for instance from DVDs and the like but for real attainment physcially, and to learn the higher asanas, you would still need a direct relationship with someone other than the DVD or online Forum.
It is my personal experience that techniques can be checked that are unobservable to the eye. Seeing the depth of a Pranayam and some parts of the Khechari are easy yes, but there are many things that can be "seen" by an authorized teacher/Guru/Master/advanced Disciple etc. They also have experienced it first hand or not and can tell if what is being done or visualized is inproper or part of the process or something that needs to be changed in the technique. I have been told when and what i have experienced,that was completely internal to me, and there was no way they could "see" anything going on with the physcial body. so this statement also is incorrect.
As this is not the proper place to expound on some generalities of Kriya and many that claim to practice it i will refrain from going further here on that subject.
This is how i see it. and again others may disagree which is entirely understandable from certain viewpoints.
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Edited by - Kriyaban on Jun 29 2010 4:32:13 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 5:33:27 PM
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Hi Kriyaban,
quote:
Originally posted by Kriyaban
The traditional manner of study for eons has been teacher/student (read Guru/Disciple) and a DIRECT relationship, regardless of whether one practices Kriya or not,it pertains to the Yogic methods in General regardless of what it is that you are practicing. Its the Guru ParamPara way. It has been spoken about in the Gita, its the whole gist of it as a matter of fact, and is mentioned in the Upanishads. it is unacceptable in the traditional lineages for anything else. so the statement in any meaning isnt correct, except of course in regards to this site and practicing the the techniques contained within it.
Thank you for that clarification. That isn't exactly how I was saying what I was saying, though (I'll clarify).
I agree with you up to the point of your statement
quote:
"it is unacceptable in the traditional lineages for anything else".
Yes, that's true: it's unacceptable in the traditional lineages.
There's a lot of value to be found in traditional lineages; even ultimate value, for the fortunate few who make it all the way to liberation via a traditional lineage.
However, there's an entirely new paradigm at work in the world, currently. The need for rigid tradition alone has fallen away, and has been augmented by a more open-architecture approach. AYP is just one iteration of this new type of approach (if it wasn't the first, it was certainly one of the very first). AYP's approach show it to be every bit the equivalent, if not the superior of, any other system or approach in existence, ever.
There's only one benchmark that makes any kind of sense to use when evaluating a spiritual or yogic system:
How many people are waking up? How many people utilizing a given approach are realizing: becoming liberated in this life, or well on their way to liberation in ongoing experience, per replicable results of practices?
By this benchmark, AYP's doing at least as well than any other system in history, traditional or not.
And please don't get me wrong: Kriya Yoga is one of the most effective ones, to be sure. AYP just has some further refinements that have worked extremely well for some of us.
My own experience is that AYP worked better for me than Kriya ever did. This isn't any kind of a "dis" toward Kriya; one system isn't better than another; the best system for each of us is the one that facilitates our liberation; no other system matters at all (if we follow a system, that is; a formal system, even AYP isn't necessary; just helpful. )
And so, I respectfully disagree with your statement:
quote:
"so the statement in any meaning isnt correct, except of course in regards to this site and practicing the the techniques contained within it."
My statements here are correct (in this post, and in my last one).
Simply put: the traditional lineages, and guru parampara are one way; they are not the only way; not by a long shot.
At least as many people are realizing enlightenment; liberation in this life; moksha, becoming a jivanmukta, outside of traditional lineages, as they are within traditional lineages, currently. At least.
quote:
In the western world we change things, even if we are seeking to make things better. Many times the changes cannot help.
This is certainly a true statement, taken by itself. I agree.
When I say what I say of AYP, I'm not rendering an opinion; I'm speaking from experience. Many others here, including Yogani have had similar experiences and results, and many others who are practicing AYP are experiencing the results that will lead them to liberation, as well.
I'm see results as the only criteria, and genuine intuition as our primary guiding light. If your genuine intuition led you to become a kriyaban, and to dedicate yourself to your guru, I have complete respect for that. The other side of what I'm saying is: traditional lineages work, too.
More accurately, though: any system is a vehicle; any system or approach works if we don't give up, and if we're willing to lay it all on the line; that's the real key.
quote:
For this reason I suggested that he needs to find someone that can see what is going on.
Again, though, I don't see this as applicable to Philaboston's situation (which, by the way, Phil, I will comment on, directly ) either in terms of what Phil is experiencing (which is actually quite common), and in terms of AYP Pranayama and Deep Meditation.
AYP Pranayama (aka Spinal Breathing) is done via the nose, not the mouth, and so, there's not a lot that someone else can observe and comment upon, in the first place.
In the "second place", nothing Phil has said is not 100% addressable here at this support forum.
If I felt a live review of some kind could be beneficial, I'd be the first person to agree with you; I'm literally about what works, period.
It's just that in this specific case, your suggestion doesn't apply, per your unfamiliarity with some of the deeper nuances of AYP; no big deal --- and in general, a good suggestion. Being a kriyaban myself, I understand why you made it.
In fact, if this discussion was taking place on a kriya yoga related forum, I would agree with you; for several reasons, your suggestion makes complete sense for any kriyaban, because so much of the practice can be observed by another person.
That's not the case with AYP Pranayama.
quote:
Talking about it here is one reason this site was designed i am sure and is helpful in getting feedback. and there are lessons as you mentioned but if one is doing the Yogic methods for spiritual pursuits then its an absolute must in my opinion to have a direct relationship of some type physcially.
No worries; I respect your opinion completely.
I'm just telling you that that's not the case.
quote:
You can learn Hatha for instance from DVDs and the like but for real attainment physcially, and to learn the higher asanas, you would still need a direct relationship with someone other than the DVD or online Forum.
Not in the case of AYP.
The real attainment, as you put it, is as available via AYP as it is anywhere.
quote:
It is my personal experience that techniques can be checked that are unobservable to the eye.
OK, that's fair. I suppose that's possible. I've just never seen it, is all. All the kriya checks I've participated in were very external and pragmatic.
quote:
Seeing the depth of a Pranayam and some parts of the Khechari are easy yes, but there are many things that can be "seen" by an authorized teacher/Guru/Master/advanced Disciple etc.
That's true. As I'm sure you may also be aware, physical proximity is not needed when this type of observation is conducted.
quote:
They also have experienced it first hand or not and can tell if what is being done or visualized is inproper or part of the process or something that needs to be changed in the technique.
With AYP, we've seen many, many cases of practice-related questions and situations of all types, and I have yet to see a single one, where a person needed to be referred to a live yogic resource for physical evaluation.
quote:
I have been told when and what i have experienced,that was completely internal to me, and there was no way they could "see" anything going on with the physcial body. so this statement also is incorrect.
I was working from my experience with kriya "checks". I'm aware that some gurus, advanced disciples, etc. can do this sort of thing. In many cases, this kind of approach and guidance may be both authentic and helpful; there are also cases where it could be neither (not all gurus/teachers/advanced disciples are created equal, by any means).
Again, my statement is correct with respect to AYP Pranayama, and to Philaboston's situation. There's nothing he's written so far that I don't see as being fully and easily resolvable right here.
quote:
As this is not the proper place to expound on some generalities of Kriya and many that claim to practice it i will refrain from going further here on that subject.
That's cool, though I don't think Philaboston is a kriyaban, unless I missed something; I'm pretty sure he's just talking about AYP.
What I'm talking about here applies solely to AYP, not to kriya yoga.
And, if Phil feels that taking your advice is a good idea, that's fine, too; I have nothing against anyone doing this.
However, he's getting some fairly good results from AYP, per his posted concerns; some slight fine tuning (which, again, I'll offer my 2 cents' on) seems to be all that's needed, here.
What are you suggesting -- that Phil become a kriyaban, just so he can have his practice checked?
That's great if Phil feels inclined to do so; not all that practical if he's not, though.
Yogani and senior practitioners here are really the only ones qualified to comment on AYP Practice; even an enlightened Kriya-focused guru could only comment in terms of kriya, or say "I only know kriya; you'd best check with AYP teachers regarding AYP" ... and Phil would be right back here, anyway.
And, by the way, if you do want to expound upon the generalities of kriya in a respectful and respectable way, you're welcome to do so in the Other Systems section of this forum.
quote:
This is how i see it. and again others may disagree which is entirely understandable from certain viewpoints.
Sure; that's how discussion goes, mostly.
Just to be clear: I'm not offering a viewpoint. I'm making the statements I'm making in terms of results and experience.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 29 2010 5:37:26 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 5:59:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Philaboston
Hi Victor,
Thank you for the reply. It started three months ago, a few days just after I took on pranayama. Then one night I had this wave like thing going through my body, especially limbs and started to do big body movements. After that, it is more or less there. But I never had this kind of things happen before I started ayp, or before I start my daily sessions.
I took on pranayama 2 months after DM, because I had previous premature kundalini symptoms when I practiced qigong when I was young. (left-right imbalance) This might be one of the causes of the nervous system disease which caused my legs to be paralyzed for a while. and I link the leg movements after I took pranayama with this.
the neck movements started to happen in deep meditation about 2 months ago. but the dramatic movements in resting period sounds similar to what happened after I took pranayama. (I started ayp abt 7months ago)
I think I might need to check with my pranayama. I feel sometimes I am forcing a bit to make the feeling (of warmth) to go up with my inhale. while downward moving is easy, upward/inhale is a bit harder. I also don't know what to do with the sections in my spine where it is hard to pass through. Please let me know if there is anything wrong with my pranayama. Thanks!
Hi Phil,
Automatic movements such as you're discussing can be a normal part of anyone's sadhana.
I had similar experiences to yours, for a few months, after I'd been practicing AYP for a couple of years. Then they went away, and have returned only mildly.
I never considered them a problem, mostly because in certain traditions, they're essentially expected, and considered normal.
They're just an external manifestation of kundalini-related purification which is largely unseen, or experienced more internally to the individual body-mind.
I wouldn't say it's evidence of a kundalini awakening as much as kundalini already being well-awake.
(As far as I know, if someone's kundalini was dormant, or just beginning to become active, automatic movements couldn't, and therefore wouldn't, happen.)
A lot of people don't understand how subtly kundalini operates in the beginning.
At the end of the day, kundalini is simply one term for the power of our own consciousness, guiding us to wake up. And so, even the motivation to begin spiritual practices can be said to be kundalini-driven.
The main criteria I would use to evaluate if you might be experiencing overload is:
How are you feeling during the day, outside of practice time?
If you feel fine .... keep on going as you are, unless you find the automatic movements particular disturbing or distracting (from the methodology of remaining focused on our specific practice, whether pranayama or meditation, that we maintain here, with AYP).
However, if you feel unusual anxiety, sleep or appetite disturbances, or basically, you feel unwell physically, mentally or emotionally with no clear explanation ... then it's likely you are experiencing some overload, which is also very normal.
If this is the case, it just means that you probably want to roll back your practices a bit, for maybe a week or so, and then gradually bring them back to your current levels.
Maybe cut practices in half (both pranayama and deep meditation) for a few days, and then add time back in, in few-minute increments).
It's also likely that these types of energy experiences are more tied to pranayama than to meditation, so you may not need to cut your meditation (and again, you may not need to cut anything, if you're feeling okay outside of practices, currently .... the overall energy dynamics can change day-to-day, even if they've been a certain way, for a while).
Self-pacing, as taught by AYP (and I've never seen it taught, or even referenced in another system), is very powerful. It helps you keep your practices at near-optimum levels at all times, in a very similar manner to how sports training works (i.e. if you're lifting weights, and strain a muscle, you take it easy, with respect to working that muscle group, for a few days).
I'd also suggest review the basic AYP Spinal Breathing lessons, just to be sure you're practicing as the lessons teach.
There is a slight pull or resistance type of feel upon inhale, but it's a "good and easy" kind of resistance; kind of like something is pulling the other direction (down) just a little. This phenomenon becomes more natural and automatic over time, too.
This is just my own suggestion, but ease and the overall technique are the most important things; if you review the lessons, and follow them exactly, I'm fairly confident that your concern about inhale should resolve itself.
Pranayama - Spinal Breathing
http://www.aypsite.org/41.html
Cool and Warm Currents in Pranayama
http://www.aypsite.org/63.html
Directory, AYP Main Lessons
http://www.aypsite.org/MainDirectory.html
All the best, Phil; I hope this is useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kriyaban
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 7:11:28 PM
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I understand your statements and will try not to take up more time on the forum so someone can come in and reply to the actual topic.
First though a few points.
yes there are many new paradigms at work in the world, i agree. many that are capable of great things, some are worthless. none as of yet to my knowledge has showed us that liberation is possible in this lifetime or any other by practicing them. Many seem to enhance current practices and perhaps they do, and many just SEEM to. some results are similiar to the traditional lineages because they have much of the traditional aspects in them. what i am speaking of is strictly the way it always been done. if someone explains something online and reads information available it isnt the same as being shown and verbally instructed. peoples reading comprehension is different so many times there are errors. errors that can be corrected when seen in person or prevented in the first place. errors that can cause physical and mental issues. this is my main point. and only point really regarding this subject.
Not saying this is the case with you but many people that leave a traditional lineage such as Kriya and go elsewhere either were not initiated, practiced a watered down version, practiced something that was supposed to be Kriya, didnt have the discipline to practice properly, or learned from what is available in books or online such as Ennio's site, which i might add is completely off course except for the fact that he has mentioned my Gurus book on the biography of Lahiree Mahasaya. I am only using Kriya here as an example by the way. I myself practiced other methods before learning Kriya. i was on this site for a long long time and never posted, just read, even two computers ago . was already practicing many of the techniques. so this whole thing really isnt about Kriya at all which is how it seems you took it because i practice it or my handle is Kriyaban. LOL but since you mentioned it i will clarify things.
I am not saying he needs to practice kriya to be able to have his practice checked, for that matter everything on this particular site is from many different lineages, so any REAL teacher in these traditions can answer his questions but many times they need to "see" what it is that he is doing as it can be the actual technique itself that is the problem. i understand what you said somethings are not visible and this again is the reason for a personal physical relationship.
In the traditional Kriya only about half or less is what is visible unlike what you mentioned saying so much can be observed,only postural and external Pranayama which accounts for a very small portion of the actual techniques, there are many subtlties in the traditonal lineages of Kriya, this is why they seem pragmatic and external during checks from non traditional or modified schools because they dont know them. the true Guru, and his advanced disciples in some cases, can tell you what it is you are doing right or wrong whether they see it or not regardless of the tradition practiced. like i said personal experience, and this is normal in many traditions. many times they can induce the proper technique or darshan by touching you. have had it happen. this is why i am saying regardless of practicing AYP and what the site is designed for, there are still times where a teacher should be seen. is it this time, who knows. maybe not, not my point since this has gone another direction. it could be simply his pranayama that is off, it could be its not being performed correctly and maybe his answers are in the lesson or on the forum but how do we know for sure? perhpas its certain blockages. who knows?
my last point is this. practicing pranayama can be dangerous. full stop. period. LOL this is why it is not supposed to be learned from books, sites or the like, even "certified" instructors in many countries around the world teach it and probably shouldnt be. this is a known fact everywhere. while reading about it is great and all and enlightening and perhpas will make a person seek out their true path, it still should be done under supervision in the beginning (the beginning can last a long time LOL). even some of the techniques that require alternate passage breathing WITHOUT Khechari in place are problems. this is looked at in some traditions as to be the cause of disease and is improper practice for example. so you really need to know what path you are on and why you are on it and what the techniques entail and much of the time you cant simply "understand" these things by reading about it.
this is one reason why there are so many so called Kundalini support forums online today. the majority are there thru improper practice in the first place, or what they thought was proper and turned out it wasnt. sometimes they just cant deal with it when they did learn someting authentic or had a spontaneous awakening (which is rare i might add, much more so than we think over here), and if they had a TRUE authentic teacher then they would be taken care of and helped thru it.
all i am saying is be careful, he will make his own decisions and thats perfectly fine. i love the site and always have and love learning more techniques (not that i practice them) but i like looking at differences and similarities.
as for posting a topic on Kriya, i had thought about it but i am sure i would ruffle feathers even though it wouldnt be my intention. most dont like to hear that what they practice or practiced wasnt authentic and sometimes they spent alot of money and time invested on something useless. i may in the future but havent decided on what approach to take so as not to ruffle the feathers.  i dont want to come across that my lineage is the only one as i know of several others, however none of those can be found on the net...but there are quite a few if the traditional methods are your thing.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 8:15:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kriyaban
yes there are many new paradigms at work in the world, i agree. many that are capable of great things, some are worthless. none as of yet to my knowledge has showed us that liberation is possible in this lifetime or any other by practicing them.
AYP has.
quote:
if someone explains something online and reads information available it isnt the same as being shown and verbally instructed.
This may generally be true. I'm just saying that per the results of quite a few AYP practitioners, there's no negative hit, as far as I can tell, from AYP's online-only approach (though AYP does have quite a few meditation groups worldwide, and is expanding into live yoga classes ... and already has, actually). This site will probably be the central hub for the forseeable future, though.
quote:
peoples reading comprehension is different so many times there are errors. errors that can be corrected when seen in person or prevented in the first place. errors that can cause physical and mental issues. this is my main point. and only point really regarding this subject.
Per what I wrote above, I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to the in-person approach, or that there aren't advantage to guru parampara and other aspects of the traditional approach.
It's just that many people kind of have it backwards:
They spend a lot of time and energy comparing vehicles (yogic systems) ... when it's all about the destination (which isn't a fixed point, but rather realization of the truth that's always actually already here).
AYP works.
Traditional kriya lineages work.
I'm not sure if the modified ones do or not (and yes, I was involved with a modified one - Ananda, headed by Swami Kriyananda) .. I can't think of anyone, offhand, who fully realized and became liberated via one of the modified systems.
Other systems (Zen, Dzogchen, Kashmir Shaivism, to name just a few) have been proven to work, as well.
Certain living meta-tradition teachers (i.e. Adyashanti, Yogani) have helped to produce complete liberation, as well.
And so, we know that each of these vehicles can get you t/here.
As far as I can tell, dedicated practitioners can realize their true nature, and become enlightened (liberated) within a relative handful of years (five-ish to ten-ish) in any of these systems, if they're truly "all the way in."
(And so, none of them are necessarily "light years" better than the others; it's all about what works, yes?)
quote:
Not saying this is the case with you but many people that leave a traditional lineage such as Kriya and go elsewhere either were not initiated, practiced a watered down version, practiced something that was supposed to be Kriya, didnt have the discipline to practice properly, or learned from what is available in books or online such as Ennio's site, which i might add is completely off course except for the fact that he has mentioned my Gurus book on the biography of Lahiree Mahasaya.
Well, I'm pretty much "one of those", which may be why AYP was experienced as so much more effective than the kriya I practiced.
I actually got some good info from Ennio's site (which I integrated with AYP, a bit) .... I don't see anything about his information to criticize offhand (though it sounds like you likely know the nuances of kriya yoga overall better than I do) ..... primarily because the bit that I utilized worked just fine.
quote:
I am not saying he needs to practice kriya to be able to have his practice checked, for that matter everything on this particular site is from many different lineages, so any REAL teacher in these traditions can answer his questions but many times they need to "see" what it is that he is doing as it can be the actual technique itself that is the problem. i understand what you said somethings are not visible and this again is the reason for a personal physical relationship.
Or not.
Again: I have yet to see a single instance with AYP where referral to a physical teacher has been needed, and many of us here have gotten staggeringly good results. Results that are documented here at this forum (quite a few of us have years' worth of posts, here; you can literally see our awakening via our writing).
quote:
In the traditional Kriya only about half or less is what is visible unlike what you mentioned saying so much can be observed,only postural and external Pranayama which accounts for a very small portion of the actual techniques, there are many subtlties in the traditonal lineages of Kriya, this is why they seem pragmatic and external during checks from non traditional or modified schools because they dont know them. the true Guru, and his advanced disciples in some cases, can tell you what it is you are doing right or wrong whether they see it or not regardless of the tradition practiced. like i said personal experience, and this is normal in many traditions. many times they can induce the proper technique or darshan by touching you. have had it happen. this is why i am saying regardless of practicing AYP and what the site is designed for, there are still times where a teacher should be seen.
What I'm saying is: online-only instruction of AYP has worked perfectly fine for many of us.
Physical proximity with a teacher is not necessary.
It can be beneficial.
It is not necessary.
If you follow a tradition which says it is necessary, wonderful. I'm just saying that outside of that context generally, and in terms of AYP specifically, physical proximity to a teacher is not necessary, purely as evaluated by results.
Might some people get better results with a physical teacher or guru? Possibly, but AYP's results, as I said before, are at least the equivalent of those produced by any other system.
In general I agree: online systems are probably not as effective as systems with live teachers.
This just doesn't happen to be true of AYP.
quote:
is it this time, who knows. maybe not, not my point since this has gone another direction. it could be simply his pranayama that is off, it could be its not being performed correctly and maybe his answers are in the lesson or on the forum but how do we know for sure? perhpas its certain blockages. who knows?
Please see my post to Phil for my input on the specifics.
quote:
my last point is this. practicing pranayama can be dangerous. full stop. period.
Possibly, if guidelines are not followed. If anyone of normal health, without any unknown, underlying medical conditions (i.e. the same caveats that apply to anyone starting pranayama, via any teacher or system) practices AYP Spinal Breathing per the AYP Lessons or books, there's no danger.
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this is a known fact everywhere.
Except here, apparently.
quote:
while reading about it is great and all and enlightening and perhpas will make a person seek out their true path, it still should be done under supervision in the beginning (the beginning can last a long time LOL).
That's what we're here for, and our approach works just fine.
quote:
even some of the techniques that require alternate passage breathing WITHOUT Khechari in place are problems. this is looked at in some traditions as to be the cause of disease and is improper practice for example.
Some traditions have some good understanding of the overall dynamics of this sort of thing; others are metaphorically smoking crack.
If one of those latter groups happen to have been around when people were noting stuff down in Sanskrit, chances are pretty high that their teaching ("crack high" included  ) has been passed down and translated into English and other languages as authoritative.
quote:
so you really need to know what path you are on and why you are on it and what the techniques entail and much of the time you cant simply "understand" these things by reading about it.
Agreed. This is generally true.
However, there's a lot more power and true teaching available via AYP than you seem to realize, including AYP's online approach.
quote:
this is one reason why there are so many so called Kundalini support forums online today. the majority are there thru improper practice in the first place, or what they thought was proper and turned out it wasnt.
Well, that, and the fact that there's an entire error-based culture surrounding the myth of "kundalini as pathology", which has zero basis in reason or fact.
If you'd like to see genuine kundalini support, hang around here again for a while.
We know what kundalini is, we know how to work with it, and we know how to optimize the experience of it to facilitate liberation.
Most other support groups are anything but; they perpetuate illusion; they don't help to dissolve it.
quote:
if they had a TRUE authentic teacher then they would be taken care of and helped thru it.
Again: that's why we're here.
What's a "TRUE authentic teacher"?
A TRUE authentic teacher is one who can teach what you want to learn; who can help you get where you want to go, so to speak.
That's what we do here, and in all modesty, we do it as well as anyone ever has. This isn't bragging; it's just an observation, based on actual results, for quite a few of us here.
quote:
all i am saying is be careful, he will make his own decisions and thats perfectly fine.
It sounded though, like as a "PS" you made it sound like having his practice checked physically was pretty much a "must".
It's not.
quote:
i love the site and always have and love learning more techniques (not that i practice them) but i like looking at differences and similarities.
Cool; you're always welcome here (you post even strong disagreement very respectfully; as long as you continue to do so, I don't think you'll ever encounter an issue with your posts being welcome here, in general).
quote:
as for posting a topic on Kriya, i had thought about it but i am sure i would ruffle feathers even though it wouldnt be my intention. most dont like to hear that what they practice or practiced wasnt authentic and sometimes they spent alot of money and time invested on something useless. i may in the future but havent decided on what approach to take so as not to ruffle the feathers. i dont want to come across that my lineage is the only one as i know of several others, however none of those can be found on the net...but there are quite a few if the traditional methods are your thing.
Up to you, of course.
If you look around the Other Systems section, though, you'll see that some of our discussions can get fairly emphatic ... and they're still a useful addition to our overall knowledge base.
It goes the other way, too: if you can handle people disagreeing with you, or countering your statements, that's fine ... if not though, maybe better not to start such a thread (this is a discussion forum ....... we discuss stuff).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kriyaban
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 9:47:02 PM
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its all good. thanks for the explanations. and yes i can take people disagreeing with me. LOL i aint right all the time! i like AYP and if i were not commited to my path then i would be practicing it. that is how much i respect it. although i still dont know (maybe i havent searched enough here) anyone that has practiced exculsively the AYP method and left body consciously and was liberated. Why? because they are not here to tell us about it. LOL  and then again, i havent searched enough for the techniques that have to do with that sort of thing on this forum either! i would think just exiting when one wants to and bringing the prana thru the sushumna to at least the ajna chakra would be a neat trick if it can be done with AYP. that alone would sell me on it. LOL if its anything below that level, then there is still vibration and that means here we go again for another round
as for ennio, wrong info, videos not accurate among other things. his is one that came to mind so i just mentioned it. thats all. its not really the nuances with him its the whole thing because Kriya is definitley one of those things where you need a Guru. i didnt mention many of the others simply because most arent worth mentioning and are the modified methods and as you said, none of those have reached liberation that we know of. all the ones that are offshoots of SRF, and SRF are modified. so therefore we have no idea if it works since Yoganandaji changed it. and its doubtful it does. good karma in many ways no doubt, liberation, i dont think so.
i read the post to phil that you mentioned. good advice and i was never trying to downplay advice or AYP in general. My philosophy is that you need a teacher in most Yogic systems and this is generally in person, now granted my Guru is in Kolkata and i only see Him twice a year the rest is up to me. LOL but He is there regardless as are my brother and sister disciples that are more advanced than I and i can ask them questions. I envy AYP in a few ways simply because i am the only practicing American of my Guru that we know of here and since we cant disclose actual technique etc i dont have anyone from the West to even talk to. or talk shop too. LOL which is one reason i enjoy reading post on the boards here and i still hang around.
definition of authentic teacher in the traditional sense-someone authorized to teach their system by their own Guru, not only does the person have the spiritual realization to do so, but also has the their own personal experiences and complete knowledge of the system as a whole which thru practice has led them to their own spirital realizations of truth. most importantly they have been allowed to do so under the blessings of the Guru (again the Guru/Disciple relationship). an authentic teacher in all ways, not just with technique but spiritually. one that can intrepet the scriptures for instance based on the light of the Yoga they practice. they can show you what the results are and teach you how to get there as well. now you asked. LOL this is traditional as i said. the way its been done in the past. but then again i do suppose we are in a new age, which is why we have so many new agers. LOL
take care and it was good to "discuss" with you
Om Shanti Om Shanti Om Shanti |
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Pheel
China
318 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 10:46:24 PM
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Hi Kirtanman and Kriyaban,
thank you both for your input! I didn't fully delve into your discussion, but I think the two can be complimentary, instead of contradictory. I'd seek both help from ayp forum, and from a person, whether ayper or a guru, if possible.
I haven't been trusting these inner-driven movements; and I've been feeling quiet and kind in daily life, till I got this vertigo, and the little bomb in my head. I am concerned with delayed effects. I have taken on dm, sbp, sambahvi, mulabandha, samyama and siddhasana in less than 7 months. And tough I feel great progress, almost a different person, I think I need to watch out for delayed effects, too.
I took off my siddhasana yesterday. And the automatic movements goes away, but I feel both my pranayama and dm now are a bit lackluster. And my daily life is fine, but I feel there's something lacking. But I do hope that the vertigo, dizziness will go away in a few days. I think sometimes it is indeed hard to correctly recognize what the symptoms are; and in these cases, we all need someone who's really experienced to help. But when there are different voices, it can be a bit confusing. I searched some other posts, and saw that vertigo can be a symptom of kundalini. There is another online resource which tells that automatic movements like what I experience can be kundalini.
Whether it is or not, I think I'll need to experiment by adjusting my practice and find out what exactly is the cause. And what should I do to reduce this vertigo.
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 11:18:51 PM
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Hi Philaboston,
I would scale back your practices, meaning self-pace.
Automatic-yoga, movements or anything else, to me warrants self-pacing.
Hi Kriyaban,
AYP is safe system, in my view, based on the many checks and balances in place and the self-pacing principle which you won't find so explicitly stated in any other system i've read up on.
AYP is the real deal btw;it's authentic yoga and no diltuion or poor imitation.I've got nothing but praise for it, it's mission- (to equip seekers , as well as inform which it does very well i think , with time-tested methods or suite of practices,intelligently integrated who are really seeking ,or were rather), the support forum and so on and so on.
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Edited by - Akasha on Jun 29 2010 11:48:47 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 11:29:00 PM
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Hi Kriyaban,
quote:
Originally posted by Kriyaban
its all good. thanks for the explanations. and yes i can take people disagreeing with me. LOL i aint right all the time! i like AYP and if i were not commited to my path then i would be practicing it. that is how much i respect it. although i still dont know (maybe i havent searched enough here) anyone that has practiced exculsively the AYP method and left body consciously and was liberated. Why? because they are not here to tell us about it. LOL
Leaving the body isn't required; "liberated in this life" means with, and via, a body-mind.
And a few of us have either managed it, or are very close, depending upon where the lines are drawn.
I can really only speak of my own experience.
I got that "enlightenment", or truth-realization was real (a few years back), and felt a deep sense that it was the only thing that really mattered, and it became the focus of my life.
It is real, I've realized it fully, and AYP was my core set of practices.
And all the usual qualifiers apply: there's no real "I" that realizes; realization is the dissolution of that limited I-idea; evolution in form continues, and so on.
However, as Ramana Maharshi points out: the Self is always already here, and so, it can be known by us all; it's the true nature of us all.
As Jed McKenna says of enlightenment:
Enlightenment is the unprogrammed state.
&
I don’t have something you don’t; you believe something I don’t.
And, please remember: AYP is more a framework than a fixed system; it is very open architecture, and so, you may never find anyone who becomes liberated by starting at the beginning of the Main Lessons, and solely proceeding through them in a linear manner.
That doesn't mean AYP doesn't work, though; it most certainly does.
quote:
i would think just exiting when one wants to and bringing the prana thru the sushumna to at least the ajna chakra would be a neat trick if it can be done with AYP. that alone would sell me on it. LOL if its anything below that level, then there is still vibration and that means here we go again for another round
LOLing myself, here!
Yes, a neat trick indeed; one so basic and dimly remembered, it took me a minute to realize what you were talking about.
"Exiting" (more like .... permeating) via Crown is far more intense, though; it less like a woo-hoo out-of-body thing, and more like a "Holy Crap, I'm actually the space of awareness .... inside and outside and all through the body-mind and everything .... literally; Oh My God .... it's REAL."
That happened to me a couple-ish years ago.
That's when it all got really interesting for me. For some reason, I needed that level of shock; not everyone does. A lot of people become fully enlightened and liberated without any "woo hoo" experiences.
In fact, after that stabilized and became accessible at will, I don't even go there (relax into the wholeness of pervasive awareness) except in meditation, or at night, when I do that some, and sleep some.
Another great Jed McKenna quote:
Enlightenment isn’t when you go there; it’s when there comes here.
Transcendence is nothing (literally) .... it's just our orientation to reality, the end of fear, suffering and the illusion of mortality, liberation from samsara, and the cycles of birth and death; all that kind of stuff.
Bringing it back here and having a rollicking good time with it all .... THAT'S the Fun Part!
quote:
i read the post to phil that you mentioned. good advice and i was never trying to downplay advice or AYP in general. My philosophy is that you need a teacher in most Yogic systems and this is generally in person, now granted my Guru is in Kolkata and i only see Him twice a year the rest is up to me. LOL but He is there regardless as are my brother and sister disciples that are more advanced than I and i can ask them questions.
Cool, and yes .... there can be a definite power to sangha. We have it here, just without a formal guru (Yogani's the leader, but a bunch of the rest of us kind of share the load, and if you want to be sure Yogani's absolutely positively not a guru .... just ask him! )
quote:
I envy AYP in a few ways simply because i am the only practicing American of my Guru that we know of here and since we cant disclose actual technique etc i dont have anyone from the West to even talk to. or talk shop too. LOL which is one reason i enjoy reading post on the boards here and i still hang around.
Cool; it's all good. Candidly, that's one of the issues I had with kriya: the secrecy. I respect it, but it just didn't work for me. Truth is One, and we're all it ... what the heck is there to be secret about? <--- My perspective; I respect yours, of course.
quote:
definition of authentic teacher in the traditional sense-someone authorized to teach their system by their own Guru, not only does the person have the spiritual realization to do so, but also has the their own personal experiences and complete knowledge of the system as a whole which thru practice has led them to their own spirital realizations of truth. most importantly they have been allowed to do so under the blessings of the Guru (again the Guru/Disciple relationship). an authentic teacher in all ways, not just with technique but spiritually. one that can intrepet the scriptures for instance based on the light of the Yoga they practice. they can show you what the results are and teach you how to get there as well.
Well, that applies to traditional teachers.
Most of what you wrote applies to any genuinely enlightened teacher (understanding that definition of enlightenment varies a lot; the AYP culture tends to steer away from pinning it down, and with good reason; I'm just on the blunt end of the spectrum. )
And yes, given a little time to understand the nuances of a new system, all scriptures literally become an open book.
I used to think this was some super-natural, meta-mystical thing ("And the enlightened one shall have knowledge of the Vedas", etc. etc.) ... but it's not.
It simply means that you know what's going on, in experience.
All the books on swimming look a lot different, and become much more inherently clear, when you're one of the few humans to get tossed in the pool ("Ohh .... *this* is what they meant by wetness ...!!").
And as I used to say a lot:
"C'mon IN, the Divine is FINE!!"
quote:
now you asked. LOL this is traditional as i said. the way its been done in the past. but then again i do suppose we are in a new age, which is why we have so many new agers. LOL
Yeah, but a lot of new agers wouldn't know awakening if they tripped over it on the way to the quartz crystal section in their favorite bookstore.
Valid spiritual principles are eternal; they just come in a wide variety of packaging, is all.
quote:
take care and it was good to "discuss" with you
Yes; same here.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 11:37:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Philaboston
Hi Kirtanman and Kriyaban,
thank you both for your input! I didn't fully delve into your discussion, but I think the two can be complimentary, instead of contradictory. I'd seek both help from ayp forum, and from a person, whether ayper or a guru, if possible.
I haven't been trusting these inner-driven movements; and I've been feeling quiet and kind in daily life, till I got this vertigo, and the little bomb in my head. I am concerned with delayed effects. I have taken on dm, sbp, sambahvi, mulabandha, samyama and siddhasana in less than 7 months. And tough I feel great progress, almost a different person, I think I need to watch out for delayed effects, too.
I took off my siddhasana yesterday. And the automatic movements goes away, but I feel both my pranayama and dm now are a bit lackluster. And my daily life is fine, but I feel there's something lacking. But I do hope that the vertigo, dizziness will go away in a few days. I think sometimes it is indeed hard to correctly recognize what the symptoms are; and in these cases, we all need someone who's really experienced to help. But when there are different voices, it can be a bit confusing. I searched some other posts, and saw that vertigo can be a symptom of kundalini. There is another online resource which tells that automatic movements like what I experience can be kundalini.
Whether it is or not, I think I'll need to experiment by adjusting my practice and find out what exactly is the cause. And what should I do to reduce this vertigo.
Hi Phil,
Just to clarify - I'm saying automatic movements are kundalini. I'm also saying that they're a normal part of overall purification.
I had a bout of vertigo, too. Vertigo may or may not be kundalini. Mine was pretty ridiculous for a couple of days (my only mode of navigation was crawling diagonally while actively vomiting). This was years ago, and when I put the pedal to the medal in terms of adding practices, and had a business trip involving air travel (which can push vertigo over the edge).
I got some medication that zombie'd me out pretty good at the time; I think it was more just time and scaling back practices (to zero; my one mode of non-locomotion was sitting or laying still and actively not-vomiting. <-- anyone who's had serious vertigo understands "actively not-vomiting"! )
And yes, scaling back a little tends to "deaden" things a little.
Same as going to the gym and barely working a sore muscle; your mind says its not enough.
It is.
As Yogani says, this is a marathon and not a sprint.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Kriyaban
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 12:37:47 AM
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I agree with Kirtanman on that the automatic movements are kundalini, especially with how much and what you have been practicing. that is ALOT to take in in that amount of time. as the kundalini purges the entire nadi system and everything else you will have symptoms of such. the vertigo is more important in my opinion as i think that is what should be addressed. i dont like the word kundalini syndrome or sickness that some term it to be as it is a natural process that happens and its different for everyone. i think its karmic, physical, emotional, mental and spiritual all wrapped up and depending on your state in each of these is what will determine exactly what you experience. but that is my opinion. because i have practiced many of the techniques on this site and am obviously practicing Kriya now i can say that i understand what you are talking about, but i can offer a different perspective as i am also a doctor of oriental medicine. so i understand from practice and from a qi/prana standpoint. LOL many times during the practices that we do we build up a variety of things in the body. one such thing that can cause this is too much Yang energy moving up to the head, another thing that can cause it is too much depletion of the Kidney energy which ties into the Yang rising up actually. if you shoot me an email and explain in detail what you are experiencing and also what a bomb inside the head is i will give you a few ideas so as not to discuss anything too medical online. and it will not be a diagnosis of course as i dont work that way. i am old school if that isnt obvious and in my medicine i firmly believe that one must see the patient LOL but i can offer a few tools to use to see if it helps in your vertigo particularly. i personally wouldnt take any pharmaceuticals for it, not only will that not be of benefit as to curing it but they hinder our progress for the most part in our practices. the automatic and spontaneous movements sound straight up like kundalini and this will pass once things settle down. learn to enjoy that as once it goes away and isnt intense you will probably look back it with nostalgia. LOL feeling quiet and kind in daily life are good things, i find that after practice it is very difficult to even speak or want to simply because everything is so internalized. for me there isnt a desire to speak as it seems like it starts the vibrations again and i am back "into" the world if that makes sense. i enjoy it immensely.
if i confused you at all with my posts i apologize. i wont go into detail about my opinons regarding your situation from a Yogic aspect simply because i do not practice AYP but many of the practices are similiar and the ones i practiced before are exactly the same. but out of respect for the forum i will try to refrain from throwing my two cents in since my tradition is different, even though many things are quite similiar as i stated. LOL but i can help from a Chinese Medicine viewpoint and it should at least relieve the dizziness and vertigo somewhat if not completely. personally none of my brother/sister disciples have issues like we have over here when practicing. LOL i dont know what it is other than 99% are all Bengali and surely that isnt it! i tell my brother disciple about the forums and kundalini sickness sites and problems and all he does is laugh hysterically, of course he is Bengali too, maybe its something in their blood anyway, good luck, listen to those that are here to help and if i can at all just email me.
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Edited by - Kriyaban on Jun 30 2010 11:29:27 AM |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 08:53:57 AM
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Hi Kriyaban,
quote:
I agree with Kirtanman on that the automatic movements are kundalini
I don't think there is any divergenece of views here whatsoever that the AM's are a manifestation of Kundalini , if one is comfortable with that term. I cetainly am. Ecstatic kundalini,nadis,prana shakti,kundalini- it more or less al the same- the nadis getting cleaned and purfied,the energy body opening up.Agreement all round here i would say.
But based on experience certainly learned the hard way, for that there is no doubt, automatic movements are precisely the thing to be wary of of, iin terms of self-pacing and premature openings/awakenings.And it would just be wise to monitor that particular k/energy related phenomenon ,slowy is one way, and not to just ALWAYS simply go with them. This to me is a recipe for a crash. It happned to me. So be warned and practice wisely and safely. That is why my adivce is sometimes to temper the practices, so erring on the side of caution, if someone is having doubts about AM's and their effects and implications.If there are any doubts to me it really is an alarm bell. If the movments are gentle and mild then probably nothing to be self-pace. But if they happen at will and more actively and agressive-ish without any conscious manipulation then....mmmm... wise just to tread on the careful side.The experienced practitioner may not be able to always anticipate negative reactions but should have learnt some useful navigation tips.Because things can get rough and stay that way for a LONG time too.With AYP if you've gpt that then you can remedy the situation better and more quickly however.
Some times i feel i offer adivce here but i sense sometimes it is kinda of washed off,but hey people will find out for themself the mistake of charging ahead.It's a good way of learning but a HARD way.But soome powerful lessons are learnt that way.Alot of my posts should be some kind of warning to others.
Sometimes it really does'nt matter how many times you repeat something or privide hints or pointers, not that i am saying i am always right-no way, but some folk sometimes just are'nt interested in what other people say and will do whatever they are doing or want to do anyway.We all have our own lives to lead after all. This is just a website forum. And i think it's hard even on web froum to really get to know and understand whhere folk are coming from. Th least one can do is repsect each other, their opinions and the yoga they practise. If there is any critique it is a respectful one and there is mutual understanding relating to that.Otherwise it helps no one.
Of course ,just my 2 cents. |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 11:18:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Philaboston
AOther time it’s fine, the worst time is usually when I laid down or sit up. Do they sound like I understand signs of kundalini awakening, and/or purification, or indications of something wrong in my practice?
Hi Philaboston
It might be worth getting the dizziness checked by your medical practitioner. From your description, particularly the worsening when you lie down or stand up, it reminds me of a bout of labrynthitis I had some years ago.
Much love |
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Kriyaban
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 6:39:54 PM
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"Yes, a neat trick indeed; one so basic and dimly remembered, it took me a minute to realize what you were talking about."
"Leaving the body isn't required; "liberated in this life" means with, and via, a body-mind."
"And a few of us have either managed it, or are very close, depending upon where the lines are drawn"
"Transcendence is nothing (literally) .... it's just our orientation to reality, the end of fear, suffering and the illusion of mortality, liberation from samsara, and the cycles of birth and death; all that kind of stuff."
I would like to go into detail about some of these statments perhaps on another thread. As when i spoke earlier i was speaking very basic, however the techniques are not and would like to clarify as your and my definition of liberation must be entirely differnt although you mentioned a couple things that would make it the same.
I am curious as to your thoughts as merging the prana-air from the Ida and Pingala into the Sushumna and bringing that stilled air to the Ajna or Sahasrara is no small feat and is something not basic in any system. This means that the three knots are untied, the breathless state or Kevala-Kumbhaka is achieved thru recaka and puraka and its continual practice among many other things. Then after many more things i wont go into on this thread are completed, are you even close to being able to attain liberation. I am talking about 100% cessation of dynamic prana, the techniques that go along with it etc. not basic enlightenment, 5 or even 10 yrs of practice would be a sprint LOL it takes longer than that, as you said that Yogani says, its a marathon. 5 or 10yrs is a drop in the bucket regardless of what you practice.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 10:56:58 PM
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I'm cool with another thread; "after you" (go ahead and start it; I'll chime in).
Other Systems is probably best.
I wasn't meaning to diminish anyone else's definition of enlightenment or the way there, by the way.
It's just that all the form-oriented practices seem less and less important over time, as well as from the perspective of timeless awareness (meaning: it's not *about* the practices; it's about what is revealed via the practices, whatever they may or may not be.)
And I was also respectfully suggesting that it may be possible that some of the things you've been taught are essential may not actually be essential for everyone.
This is simply true of any tradition which says you "must" do this or that.
Did Ramana Maharshi do all the things you've been taught are necessary? How about Nisargadatta? How about enlightened Taoists or Buddhists or Christians or Sufis or Alchemists or Kabbalists?
Kriya Yoga is a highly effective system, but it's not the only one, by far, as I'm pretty sure you know (even Yogananda didn't opine that only Kriyabans became enlightened).
Enlightenment isn't evaluated by what the body-mind can do; true enlightenment isn't evaluated at all.
The actuality of the Self/True-Nature is known in ongoing experience, or it's not, period-full-stop.
Even enlightenment is a relative term.
There's living in-from-as the knowing of true nature, or there's dreaming of evaluation and limitation within the greater scope of reality.
Enlightenment, if it's an applicable term at all, is applicable to the cessation of the dream, and the attendant revelation of Self/True Nature.
All practices are supports; no one specific practice, or even series of them, are essential to enlightenment, and no systems' practices and benchmarks are an accurate measuring stick for all.
(Even the term Maya comes from the Sanskrit root "Maa" - "to measure"; they don't just make this stuff up, ya know. )
To say that enlightenment requires such and such is like trying to discuss the third dimension from the perspective of the second, or more accurately, it's like trying to discuss the waking state from the perspective of the dreaming state ... "problematic at best".
Liberation is awareness of our true nature as wholeness, in ongoing experience.
Living-Knowing/Awareness in ongoing experience is the natural state; the result of the cessation of ego and its erroneous evaluations (Yoga is the cessation of mind-disturbances; Yogash Chitta-vrtti-nirodhah, as Yoga Sturas 1.2 says).
And so, it's like I'm saying "San Francisco is great!"
And it's like you're responding, "But you don't understand; you have to do such and such and then thus and such, or you can't be in San Francisco!"
And it's like I'm shrugging and saying "Okay", as I enjoy the view of the Bay, as I ride a cable car from Union Square down toward Fisherman's Wharf.
Enlightenment is everywhere; enlightenment is all there is; none of us has it more than anyone else; it's life itself, awareness itself; animating all.
Some of us are just conscious of the full-range of awareness-consciousness (aka the Self, enlightenment, whatever).
Others of us aren't conscious of it, yet. We all will be, though; it's reality; it's actually pretty hard to miss.
Just realize that what you're looking for is what you're actually looking with, and you're most of the way t/here, now.
Awareness is a single field.
Tattvam Asi.
You Are That.
I Am That.
We All Am That.
And That's That.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 01 2010 11:00:03 PM |
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automatic yoga, kechari and kundalini
