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Akasha
421 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 20 2010 : 9:27:03 PM
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Hello Community,
Just a little clarification.
Is navi kriya done with/during external retention?
Like in it's basic start-off form it's been described as kind of dynamic uddiyana bandha done in your asana routine.
Then the relavant lesson goes on to describe further applications( say within SBP with other associated bandha and mudras as they have been cultured and refined) and even further developments of this practice/technique devolped in conjunction with baseer-line practices.Also designed to coax the nervous system into further openings and eventually pave the way for whole body mudra etc.
I know it can be a razor-edge moving from the base line into being more gressive by notching up the gears with the likes of the power of uddiyan, nauli navi kriya,spinal bhastrika.I know AYP can really get lot more agressive that the tools i have used. I think YMK is what i have used in the past nudge me forward with interesting results.
I am really trying tounderstand how the progression of ecstatic conductivity is systematised in the lessons by being quite clear on the instructions laid out in the lessons.
Also when you do it with spinal breathing is it a succession ,done in sequence, of little micro-movments of flexing and releasing associated mudras and bandhas from the plevic store-house upwards through the abdomen/diaprhagm and neck with kechari mudra and finally sambhavi mudra and then doing this in sequence then in reverse( and i know it should happen more naturally and intuitively with regular practice) as you exhale on the down passage. Does your SBP cycle last pretty long like up to , i don't know , at least 3 seconds- 10-15secs or what?
Okay we start off with ajana & root with SBP, then we can introduce YMK which introduces uddiyana ( and jandhara bhanda and retention caused bandhas are coonventionally practiced with kumbhaka & it's external K) for the very first time- No?
Personally i have'nt got to uddiyana. But i have looked at other tantric traditions and they prescribe something called agnisara kriya and swana pranayam before uddiyan and then nauli. But to me the agnisara kriya which they prescribed before, rather than afterwards seemed to bear more resemblance to navi kriya. The difference though is that your navi kriya can be developed with more associated mudras & bandha and can be integrated with SBPBut if some could just clairfy how that is done,then my understanding of this middle portion of the obstruction matrix within the context of the AYP system as a whole might be somewhat clearer.
Here is the lesson i might benefit from clarification on, for clarity's sake:-
http://www.aypsite.org/275.html
I don't mean to cause any confusion.I think it's because there is more than one development and application.
I think i had such a rough kundalini drive from the start of my yoga journey then i've kinda thought that things could'nt get worse especially seeing as i had nothing like the extraordinary intelligence and seeming magic of a system as complete and minutely worked out as AYP.Plus i have that cunning ally self-pacing which serves to temper and regulate the unwary student couppled with deep meditation..
Sorry if this post is long.Am just trying to understand the systematisation & progression of practices within the whole system so ican progress and safely.Sometimes i have wondered i have been too cautious and held back from being more agressive.I would say the solar plexus enhancement to DM & Deep Meditation can be my sensitive points if done over-done.In fact the solar enhancment did'nt realy work for me.I avoid that one- i found it aggravating.I just don't do it.
Also another minor point- i have been contracting ashwini with SBP but have been thinking since the seat of muladhara/root is often associated with the perinem, then contracting it with ashwini or the perineum on it's own- does that not make more sense?.Especially if you find sitting insiddhasan proper for extended periods somewhat challenging because the heel cannot funtion to stimulate muladhara so well ,with suitable comfort and relaxation in mind. in meditative asana.
I hope this makes sense and welcome any thoughts.
The great thing about AYP is it is firmly rooted in the science of yoga,free of superstition or non-secular nonsense (that you might find in more religious sounding traditions) while still bhakti-inspired ( just read the forum for two secs...lol), and it's explanations clear up a great deal of possible confusion on the level of theory.
P.S--I'm just not totally clear, i think, on that particular lesson/practice and i know it might be difficult to summarise it JUST in a few lines. |
Edited by - Akasha on Jun 21 2010 08:50:23 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 2:07:34 PM
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Hey Akasha 
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Hello Community,
Just a little clarification.
Is navi kriya done with/during external retention?
It can be done during external retention, during internal retention and during normal breathing as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Like in it's basic start-off form it's been described as kind of dynamic uddiyana bandha done in your asana routine.
Yes, you can do it in your asana routine. It will help to stimulate prana to release from the root and enter into the sushumna.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Then the relavant lesson goes on to describe further applications( say within SBP with other associated bandha and mudras as they have been cultured and refined) and even further developments of this practice/technique devolped in conjunction with baseer-line practices.Also designed to coax the nervous system into further openings and eventually pave the way for whole body mudra etc.
Yup
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
I know it can be a razor-edge moving from the base line into being more gressive by notching up the gears with the likes of the power of uddiyan, nauli navi kriya,spinal bhastrika.I know AYP can really get lot more agressive that the tools i have used. I think YMK is what i have used in the past nudge me forward with interesting results.
Yes, AYP has some pretty aggressive practices in it's toolbelt. But when tempered with self-pacing and methodical application they are all generally quite safe.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
I am really trying tounderstand how the progression of ecstatic conductivity is systematised in the lessons by being quite clear on the instructions laid out in the lessons.
Sounds like a good approach. 
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Also when you do it with spinal breathing is it a succession ,done in sequence, of little micro-movments of flexing and releasing associated mudras and bandhas from the plevic store-house upwards through the abdomen/diaprhagm and neck with kechari mudra and finally sambhavi mudra and then doing this in sequence then in reverse( and i know it should happen more naturally and intuitively with regular practice) as you exhale on the down passage. Does your SBP cycle last pretty long like up to , i don't know , at least 3 seconds- 10-15secs or what?
How I have understood the lesson, and how I have practiced Navi Kriya during SBP is to hold the mudras and bandhas continuously and while inhaling and exhaling repeatedly engaging and disengaging uddiyana bandha. And my inhales and exhales are both about 10-15 seconds long.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Okay we start off with ajana & root with SBP, then we can introduce YMK which introduces uddiyana ( and jandhara bhanda and retention caused bandhas are coonventionally practiced with kumbhaka & it's external K) for the very first time- No?
There is no specific order (IMO) that the practices "must" be applied in other then DM first and SBP likely next. Which practices you choose to add after that will be an effect of your bhakti and your intuition.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Personally i have'nt got to uddiyana. But i have looked at other tantric traditions and they prescribe something called agnisara kriya and swana pranayam before uddiyan and then nauli.
Agnisara is extremely potent IME. I found myself doing it automatically not so long ago and it took me quite a while of research to find out what this practice was called. It dramatically increased the digestive fires here (along with kundalini heat) and even caused some automatic fasting. I do not believe that it is crucial to be doing agnisara before uddiyan and nauli. I was doing uddiyana and nauli long before agnisara.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
But to me the agnisara kriya which they prescribed before, rather than afterwards seemed to bear more resemblance to navi kriya.
Yes, it bears some resemblence. In Navi kriya we are doing something different with our attention the what is (typically) done in agnisara I believe though. Part of what would make navi kriya much more powerful and energetically stimulating IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
The difference though is that your navi kriya can be developed with more associated mudras & bandha and can be integrated with SBP
I believe agnisara could be done with the mudras and bandhas as well. I know that agnisara is to be done using mulabandha for sure. I think the main difference is that we are tracing the spinal nerve in Navi Kriya and not in agnisara (FYI agnisara is not an "AYP practice"....but you likely know that already).
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
But if some could just clairfy how that is done,then my understanding of this middle portion of the obstruction matrix within the context of the AYP system as a whole might be somewhat clearer.
Hope this has clarified a little.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
I don't mean to cause any confusion.I think it's because there is more than one development and application.
Yes, Navi Kriya is a complex practice that can be added to different aspects of our already established routine.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Sorry if this post is long.Am just trying to understand the systematisation & progression of practices within the whole system so ican progress and safely.Sometimes i have wondered i have been too cautious and held back from being more agressive.I would say the solar plexus enhancement to DM & Deep Meditation can be my sensitive points if done over-done.In fact the solar enhancment did'nt realy work for me.I avoid that one- i found it aggravating.I just don't do it.
I have been having some extreme symptoms in the solar plexus/stomach region as of late and have wondered if solar enhancement had anything to do with it. Still not sure either way though.
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
Also another minor point- i have been contracting ashwini with SBP but have been thinking since the seat of muladhara/root is often associated with the perinem, then contracting it with ashwini or the perineum on it's own- does that not make more sense?.Especially if you find sitting insiddhasan proper for extended periods somewhat challenging because the heel cannot funtion to stimulate muladhara so well ,with suitable comfort and relaxation in mind. in meditative asana.
Not quite sure what you are meaning here....can you restate?
Hope this helps a little.
Love!
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 05:49:58 AM
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Hi Carson,
Thanks for your thorough and detailed answer to all the points i raised.
quote:
I have been having some extreme symptoms in the solar plexus/stomach region as of late and have wondered if solar enhancement had anything to do with it. Still not sure either way though
Some folk it might work for, or it might not,temporarily or permanently. I would let your inner guru or intuition decide for you on this one.
In relation to the final point,mulabandha:-
quote:
Not quite sure what you are meaning here....can you restate?
I mean when you do mulabandha,AYP style, do you contract the anal sphincter, the perineum or both?
If siddhasana were a challenge for any extended period,with the heel pressing against the perineum, perhaps contracting the perineum or both,might make more sense, given that sources other than AYP i have heard the perineum, at least in males, referred to as the seat of muladhara (or mulabandha) and contraction of the anus as ashwini mudra? I might have mis-read the lessons however. Or perhaps the integration of siddhasan early on means that when we do our SBP,then sambhavi and ashwini mudra are the only ones suggested.
Thanks |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 10:18:02 AM
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Hi Akasha
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
when you do mulabandha,AYP style, do you contract the anal sphincter, the perineum or both?
I can only tell you my understanding of the AYP style, but the way I experienced mulabandha was that it STARTED as a contraction of basically the entire pelvic floor....anal sphincter, perineum, the whole deal. Over time though it got easier and easier to isolate just the muscles of the anal sphincter which is all that I contract now (for the most part anyways  )
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
If siddhasana were a challenge for any extended period,with the heel pressing against the perineum, perhaps contracting the perineum or both,might make more sense, given that sources other than AYP i have heard the perineum, at least in males, referred to as the seat of muladhara (or mulabandha) and contraction of the anus as ashwini mudra?
Aswini mudra is (as far as I understand it) the same as mulabandha except that instead of holding the tensed sphincter muscles constantly (like in mulabandha) you contract and release the sphincter muscles repeatedly.
I also should mention that I forgot a main difference between agnisara and navi kriya. Agnisara is kinda like combining bastrika with a dynamic version of uddiyana...meaning with each contraction and release of uddiyana there is a cycle of bastrika breathing. With every exhale there is a contraction of the abdominal muscles and with every (reflexed) inhale there is a release of the abdonimal muscles.
Love!
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 4:03:05 PM
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Hi CARSON,
Thankyou for taking your time to post and discuss.I'm sure the benefits are great!!!
This whole area has always been a grey-ish subject one for me but one that has always interested me partly because of my own early experiences of uddiyana bandha on automatic,when i first started yoga, and also because of what textual sources discuss & refer to.
But i'll just be brief and succint ( he says in advance...lol).
My understainding is that agni-sara kriya burns up digestive impurites in the stomach/abdomeonail cavity/& other visceral organs ,by design, whereas navi kriya functions to stimulate the spinal nerve as a transitional phase to the emergence of whole body mudra.And my guess is there are levels of imperceptibility in the latter in terms of refinement and the transitiion.
Also the way i understand agnisara kriya it's done with retention. But you are bellowing,so to speak, the adbomen outwards and inwards but can be more towards the navel while the breath is held- i've done it with external kumbhaka.Perhaps in "kundalini yoga" circles-yogi bhajan etc they might also term this practice breath of fire.Air ccan still be coming out the lungs via the action of the diapgrhagm but it is more initiated with the abdomen .Whereas uddiyan and navi kriya one pulls the abdomen in and up towards and with the diaphragm. Yogani states very helpfully, in navi kriya, to pull the navel (let that be your guide-these are my own words) up towards the middle of ribcage/sternum. I say this because in some tantric traditions wheere the emphasis is on chakras they lay some importance to prelimnary pychic tuning and precise chakra " trigger point" location.The idea being one purifes the chakra nodes before working on the spinal nerve/sushumna and doing the kriya kundalini practices.I don't necessarily think it is a better approach because often in the kriya tradition s there is no suggestion that you should/must integrate a meditation component for one & it can it some ways seem more tedious feeling obliged to go through each chakra one by one. I think i managed to wake up ajna ,muladhara and swadistahan becaause i felt really drunk at one point.Then i kinda lost the momentum because the next two anahata and manipra, being my most dormant ones, and the fact my deep meditation practice fell into the background.My ajna and anal sphincter wasa lready awake because of the work I did with AYP buut i could really tell i was lacking an effective meditation technique.It was quite clear that the witness state had taken a seat momore towards the back of the cinema, if you like ....lol ( nnothing wrong with that)
Now i've come to believe there are in fact no incompatilbites hetween this aproach and AYP.It was mainly the fact ther kriya practices involved orbital routes also on the front of the chestBut then i looked at some of their other practice groups under mantra siddha yoga and they were the same-linear.So spinal breathing and pyschic tuning of chakras are not incompatible. In fact AYP does that very thing, just does'n try to micromanage too much.It relies more on bhakti and inner silence.
I'm feeling then -re-inclined to re-adopt and re-engage with my lost cousins, spinal breathing and deep meditation.Certainly deep meditation (or an effective meditation technique for sure) was the one that was missing because it causes the rise of pure bliss Consciousness. DM and the apparent simplicity of AYP makes it alot more doable.
That said, i'm still weighing up whether contraction of the anus and perineum or the perineum on it's own can be treated as the root with respect to AYP spinal breathing pranayamaa, given my map of the chakras..If we take the seat of muladhara to be where we engage the root-lock ,mulabhanda then the perieum might make more sense, especially if we're not sitting in siddhasana all the time during practice.I actually raised this about a year ago when i mentioned that Ashtanga vinyas yoga acknoeldges the perineum as the seat of mulbhanda.
I think the ancient texts and the variety within modern schools there can be divergences and convergences between practices how they are utilised and their different names( the last oone is obviously academic- i.e what you call something, as long as it gets you the desired/good results.)
P.S I find the box for the text editor really small.There is'nt a way of blowing it up, like really big, so you can view more than 7 lines at a time ,say? I'd find it easier to edit my typos.
Also there are many non-AYP practices that it be nice to raise but i'm gonna have tobe posting in under alternative systems category where it belongs. I have no intention whatsoever of confusing newcomers or folk keen for support.etc.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 4:20:14 PM
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Hey Akasha
I should probably be very clear here. I have never been "taught" agnisara by anyone. At one point a couple of months or so ago, I found myself doing a practice I did not know the name of, and after some research it seemed like I was having automatic agnisara happening. At first when this practice started happening (after my asana practice but before my nauli practice) it was happening with the breath held out. Over the next few weeks though the practice began to involve a bastrika breath more often then not. Typically (from what I have found via my reserach) agnisara is done with the breath held out....but it can also be done with a bastrika breath (only known through experience though...never found this talked about in my research). Perhaps this practice of dynamic uddiyana combined with bastrika has a different name other then "agnisara" but I have not gone searching for the name as, well, what's in a name right.
I agree with your points on the difference between the effects of agnisara and navi kriya. I hadn't really talked about the effects yet though as I was basically just talking about the physical actions involved in both practices.
And again, I have never been taught agnisara so I can't say that I am doing it right....I can't actually even say that I am doing agnisara. What has been happening here SEEMS like it is agnisara, but again, I am not really "in the know" about this practice and am just going with the flow that is happening automatically. Perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut.
Love!
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 5:10:26 PM
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Hi Carson[,
The practices i have outlined for awkening manipura chakra from the school i consulted listed them in this order:-
Dietary considerations- pure diet or perhaps even temporary fasting
1)Psychic tuning- incl.breathing into/out of manipura at the navel
2)Swana Pranayam-but brething through the mouth,adbomen bellowing
3)Agnisar Kriya- the same as above ,jus this time held with retention
4)Uddiyan Bandha-pulling in & upwards toward the diaphragm(like everyone agrees on)
5) Nauli - with the rectus abdominis,isolation of sides and then rolling both like a jump rope
6)Visualisation or Attention exerice-The meeting of apana and prana on the inhale moving respectively together towards the navel from simulatanously the root and vishuddhi.Visualisation inovling the attention. You hold the retention at the end of the breath and then focus/or concentrate on the navel/manipura chakra.It said that this practice is relatively pretty easy once the uddiyana & nauli is mastered.
I worked on ajna, then muladhara,then swadisthana but then i only got as far as agnisara kriya(P.3 above) in the manipura group and then i only tried it couple of times.
I may incorporate elements of this tantric sadhana with AYP.Certainly deep meditation should help.
I would describe navi kriya just as Yogani says- a dynamic version of uddiyana practiced with external retention.But agnisar kria is more of a cleanser/kriya to create a fire( sanskrit 'agni') in the belly ino order to burn probably mainly physical impurites away there than help awaeken ecstatic conductivity.My guess is you may be puulling the abdome lower down than in uddiyan and navi kriya whereas with the latter the pull is always in and uptowards the diapraghm.
I agree with you -it's best learnt by doing.
Th kundalin issues i had right early on in my yoga journey alomst 4 years ago now (this nov.). arose after dynamic version of uddiyana bandha practice emerged,without doubt, that at the time i just went along with the flow of it.It felt pefectly natural.It was like my abdomen was undullating uunconsciously and ,the neophyte i was, i just went along with it as my practice intensified over the time scale of about 1 month.
Then i stopped practice for 4 days becuase there had definitely been a BIG opening. And before the re-bound and retrunign to practic e the next day,after a cycle, i had a lot of crown actvity( although i did'nt know what it was then or read too deeply)Then did some asana and i somehow i had upset the nervous system. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 5:23:19 PM
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Hey Akasha
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
My guess is you may be puulling the abdome lower down than in uddiyan and navi kriya whereas with the latter the pull is always in and uptowards the diapraghm.
I only have a second here, but I just wanted to clarify what is physically being done here.
I am doing uddiyana by pulling in and up of the stomach (at the bellybutton) and diaphragm. What I have been calling agnisara is also a pulling up and in, but the muscles contracted are just below the bellybutton (this increases the fire aspect), not directly at the bellybutton like I would describe doing uddiyana. I do navi kriya with the same pulling up and in that I do in uddiyana, not the same as the agnisara practice.
Gotta run.
Love!
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 5:34:31 PM
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Hi Carson,
I'm sure you've heard it all before. Just thought it was worth pointing out. |
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Navi Kriya & the higher gears
