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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 18 2010 : 8:38:54 PM
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Hi Sparkle,
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
quote:
Hi Kirtanman
Thanks for the reply, I agree with most of it.
quote:
It could also be said awareness-consciousness-actuality ..... consciousness being a designation for the experiencing of the intermixing (both form and formlessness are experienced in, as, through consciousness).
No, I don't think consciousness is one of the senses, although mind is.
I agree fully with your description above on consciousness as being on the interface of pure awareness and the relative, thus making pure awareness conscious. Rather than being one of the sense doors I perceive it as being the doorway and as we stand ever still and ever moving in the doorway we experience conscous awareness.
Maybe splitting hairs here to make a point but as this description goes there is a difference between the door and the doorway. The doors of the senses when opened to awareness allows us to stand in the doorway and be conscious of awareness.
Then in this experiencing there is adjacency, which could be describe say like: when I speak I am aware of the voice in my body emanating out of awareness, but also aware of a sentance being formed and somehow making sense.
Sometimes I'm rather loose with my phrasing ...... I wasn't saying that consciousness is a sense, per se (though I can see how it could have sounded that way) .... as much as I was indicating how consciousness relates to Awareness-(and)-Actuality.
Awareness is light; actuality is reflection - consciousness is the "virtual bridge" created by awareness-experiencing-(its own reflection in)-actuality.
Awareness contains all form, which includes consciousness, which contains all manifested form.
Just as body is the body for mind, Consciousness-Form is the body for Awareness.
quote:
As far as awareness itself ..... it's just everywhere, just like always.
quote:
That's not what I meant K-man
If one applies the same scenario as described with adjacency of the heart, then one could see that there may be a centre in the body which is the form centre of awareness. Intuitively it seems to be the Tan Tien to me but really I am in a position of not knowing as I haven't had an insight into this yet.
Ah - I understand your question, now.
My answer is:
I've never experienced any such center, and I don't know that there's objectively such a thing -- in my experience, the answer as to whether awareness is centered in the body, in a certain location, would be a simple "No".
quote:
There is the danger of walking through the door and residing in awareness and not staying in touch with the body through the senses. In this way we can bypass the body.
This is probably the main point I was trying to make in my original post and I suppose it's a challenge to all of us who might like to escape onto cloud nine, even occasionally
Yep - I got that (as we clarified, at least) ... and, as far as I can tell, we agree 100%.
When I say that we realize our true nature as formless awareness, the main point of emphasizing that, is that the sense of self is freed from its lifetime of artificial attachment to form (thoughts/feelings/ideas/ body, etc.)
It's like we've held a clenched fist for our whole lives ... and finally realize we can relax our hand, allow it to open .... and it can still close regularly, too.
The transcendence-only fallacy is the idea that we should go from clenched-fist only to open-hand only .... which is essentially every bit as incorrect.
If we were here to transcend form .......... we wouldn't be here, now would we? (<- Rhetorical question, for everyone reading)
So-called enlightenment is just what's here when we no longer make-up unenlightenment, with artificially distorting ideas.
Awareness and actuality are simply flowing in the inherently natural harmony that's Wholeness Living Unbound .... and which is only obscured in one little corner of non-reality: over-attachment to conceptual error, by allowing emotional energy to be frozen in memory-imagination.
When that error is released, there's nothing to be said; just living unbound to be loving now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- No worries on the text thing ----- "it happens", and I could still read it all just fine, which is the important part.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 18 2010 8:40:34 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2010 : 9:11:45 PM
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Hi Kirtanman
quote:
I mean, sure, if Jed McKenna really thought-felt he was a person, and that person "hated Californians" ... well sure, there would be ego there .... but he makes quite clear that "Jed" is the character, just as Kirtanman is the character, or any of us are the character.
Well, I must speak only for myself, and I can certainly say that I am very much a cocktail of all of the above (this whole thread) descriptions of non-enlightenment. This is not "my character"....this is actually the real truth of what I am. You can tell me otherwise, but that will not change this fact. I went through a shift recently......greatly helped by Gregory Kramers Insight Dialogue retreat in Ireland some 3 weeks ago. My whole being, practice and work is changing because of it.
It is awareness (or open mind allowing awareness to focus or widen as it must as prompted by the heart knowing) in adjacency with the body (with it's constant ecstatic radiance) and the open heart (awareness knowing where more love must happen) and all the conditioning in full play.... that speaks the truth of this fact. And it is coming properly back into the body that enabled the shift. I am sitting twice a day. Not intoning the mantra (since that will drag me out of the body again). Simply sitting. And all reveals itself in that. Not all....as in other realms or visions or anything special.....just all as it is in all its wonderful and not so wonderful normality.
quote:
There's a whole, infinitely free level-wholeness beyond *all* duality, from which we can experience duality fully-freely and perfectly.
In this recent shift...that involved coming out of a permanent ecstatic state where I was blind to the fact that I actually repeatedly chose to "stay in the heart"......"falling into silence"......as a way of escaping the actual reality of being both a person and that from which this expression arises......
In this......the character is now real. I am a personal unique expression of being myself the person Katrine. I am not liberated "out of the dream". There is no dream. All of it is real at all times. And I cannot ever know where you are. What I can say about that will only speak of me. Not you.
quote:
how much more loving and devoted can someone be, than to sit down and write and publish three books that can actually liberate people out of the dream ...... *that's* loving devotion, I'd say -- and do).
As many ways as there are human beings on this earth, as many are the potential expressions of life living unhindered. I truthfully cannot evaluate...cannot know of the level of anyone elses unhinderedness - I can only be myself. Loving devotion does not compare itself here......I have only just begun to taste this love that is never neutral...that is always seeing where more love can happen.....I know nothing at all when it comes to this.
It is not about me becoming liberated. It was never that. It is simply about all of me being available so that the giving can happen as it must. Whether there is pain or love or dust or stillness or not. And here.....that seems to happen when I see myself....as being all of it. Not excluding anything....or leaving something to be "only the character". There is only reality, and I really am the character too.
quote:
After Anthem and I established our basic views per the info above, we exchanged many, many words ... and finally agreed that we at least pretty much agree.
I cannot relate to this agreeing. All that matters here now is that I see myself clearly. Only then is there availability here. It is not what I say that speaks of what I am, it is my actions. All of them.
quote:
That's why discussing it all over-much is very, very VERY much second-priority to practicing, inquiring-observing, and knowing for ourselves.
Amen to that and thank you so much Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2010 : 11:36:18 PM
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Hi Katrine,
As you may have heard/seen me say a few times now - "words get in the way" ... or can, so easily.
Per my recent dialog with Sparkle in this thread .. I'm not referring to the "character" in a sense of distance, or non-reality (and so, there's likely a much better term to use -- since "character" would seem to imply both).
As Sparkle and I agree, per the balance/integration of awareness-actuality (or adjacency, as it's termed, as well) --- each are essential to the other, and aspects within the wholeness we are.
Non-duality includes all.
And so, it's not that form is unreal or important -- it's both real and important -- it's just that having attention over-identified with it creates unenlightenment (for lack of a better term).
All I'm attempting to convey in this thread, and elsewhere, is that there's a limitless, formless awareness that's not inherently identified with any specific conceptions about form -- a "step back" if you will -- which allows us to experience this awareness we each and all always already are, as the wholeness which includes body-mind, personality -- clear-seeing; untrue concepts - everything.
In my experience, in so doing (consciously experiencing wholeness as self -- without any reference to self -- but rather, meaning that self isn't identified solely with form, including idea-self's conceptions of form as the whole of reality).
I don't know if that clarifies .... but it's a genuine attempt.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi Kirtanman
quote:
And all reveals itself in that. Not all....as in other realms or visions or anything special.....just all as it is in all its wonderful and not so wonderful normality.
Exactly ---- couldn't have said it better, myself.
I don't really experience not-so-wonderful ... or wonderful, for that matter ... it's more that definitions just don't arise .... and without definitions or evaluation, simple actuality is far more wonderful than not-wonderful.
quote:
There's a whole, infinitely free level-wholeness beyond *all* duality, from which we can experience duality fully-freely and perfectly.
quote:
In this recent shift...that involved coming out of a permanent ecstatic state where I was blind to the fact that I actually repeatedly chose to "stay in the heart"......"falling into silence"......as a way of escaping the actual reality of being both a person and that from which this expression arises......
In this......the character is now real. I am a personal unique expression of being myself the person Katrine. I am not liberated "out of the dream". There is no dream. All of it is real at all times. And I cannot ever know where you are. What I can say about that will only speak of me. Not you.
No worries; I get what you're saying, as much as I can, via discussion, I'd say.
The word arising now is "integrated" or "whole" .............. no definition .... simply natural, flowing wholeness; putting laundry in the dryer is "it" as much as transcendent ecstasy is "it" (and that hasn't changed since this thread started ... hopefully, I may just be expressing it a bit more clearly, now).
Nothing has shifted -- other than the tendency to generate a countless number of definitions and evaluations ........ in the absence of these, there's wholeness, living ... however it shows up in this moment.
Which sounds much like what you're saying, too, yes?
The sense of living as a person ... doing the things a person does ... is the same .... it's just experienced in a very different way; that dream layer of evaluation, which distorts everything, is simply absent.
The word character, again ---- probably not the best choice of term (though, as you may know .... choice doesn't exactly enter into it).
quote:
quote:
how much more loving and devoted can someone be, than to sit down and write and publish three books that can actually liberate people out of the dream ...... *that's* loving devotion, I'd say -- and do).
As many ways as there are human beings on this earth, as many are the potential expressions of life living unhindered. I truthfully cannot evaluate...cannot know of the level of anyone elses unhinderedness - I can only be myself.
Again, words (mine) can get in the way, a bit.
The context of my comment was that a couple of people took exception to Jed McKenna's straightforward way of expressing truth.
My comment was a rhetorical question -- not a literal one ---- and maybe more accurately phrased as:
"Well, I would say that taking the time and effort to write and publish three books which can help people awaken, is a very loving action, even if the mode of expression is straightforward."
It was more a matter of taking respectful exception to evaluation (that Jed McKenna's style implies something about him), as opposed to intending to add another evaluation.
quote:
Loving devotion does not compare itself here......I have only just begun to taste this love that is never neutral...that is always seeing where more love can happen.....I know nothing at all when it comes to this.
Well, again, my statements weren't so much "this is really the most loving devotion" .... that wasn't the point at all.
Rather, the point was: loving devotion can show up in far more ways than mind can possibly evaluate, and often in ways that are different than many conditioned views of loving devotion, conceptually, may allow.
Basically, many people say that loving isn't loving unless it fits the picture of loving .... all I was saying, is: loving can look different than standard pictures of loving ... and still be loving (if that's even the right word).
Simply put: I was saying that "not overtly nice" does not necessarily mean unloving; that's all.
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It is not about me becoming liberated. It was never that. It is simply about all of me being available so that the giving can happen as it must.
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here, but maybe I do:
"Liberated" is a relative term, a relative orientation. If one is bound with rope, and then no longer bound ... they don't walk around in a state of "unbound" ... that's just relative to being bound.
Their actual state, in any moment, simply involves things that weren't available in the same way when they were bound ... or thought they were.
"Ditto 'liberated'", I would say. Yes? (Is this similar to what you're saying?)
quote:
Whether there is pain or love or dust or stillness or not.
Well, yes; and I've never meant to imply anything differently than this; "non-dual means non-dual" ... it includes the transcendent, it includes human discomfort ... it includes everything.
However, when the sense of self that was constructed of erroneous memories and imagination released, in my experience .... there's simple, open awareness where there used to (often) be a lot of constriction, based on mistaken, conditioned conceptuality.
quote:
And here.....that seems to happen when I see myself....as being all of it. Not excluding anything....or leaving something to be "only the character". There is only reality, and I really am the character too.
Again: character, and related illustrations, might have been less than totally clear, in terms of what I intended to convey.
I agree - I'm all of it; hence the term "Awareness is Wholeness" at Living Unbound.
Character was more said to offer insight on the actual relationship between awareness and personality.
For many of us, prior to living from awareness, personality-thoughts are thought to be the self, and there tends to be "awareness-blindness".
In awareness/wholeness, personality-life, and experiencing, are happening, but there's not that artificial referencing, almost always, anyway ... back to artificial, fragmenting ideas .... those were never part of actuality, anyway; simply distortions.
And so: fine if they're there ... but in my experience, and in the expressed experience of quite a few others -- these untrue ideas tend not to arise much, if at all; once they've been seen through, they just don't come up much ... and if they do, they're like a burp or itch ... known to go with the body-mind, not with the awareness we are ..... though not, please note in a separating sense ... but purely in a "where they fit" sense.
quote:
After Anthem and I established our basic views per the info above, we exchanged many, many words ... and finally agreed that we at least pretty much agree.
quote:
I cannot relate to this agreeing. All that matters here now is that I see myself clearly. Only then is there availability here. It is not what I say that speaks of what I am, it is my actions. All of them.
Okay. I wasn't emphasizing agreement with Anthem as important; more just a report --- it seemed like we were far apart in our experiencing and expression --- but it turned out that we weren't clear, for the most part, on what we were each saying/meaning ... and we'd never been far apart in our view at all. However, as I said to Anthem early on -- disagreeing would have been just as fine, too. It's all fine.
I might add, though, that in the context of discussion, what I say is my action.
And as far as seeing myself clearly .... I'd agree with that, with the clarification that "myself" is experienced as openness/wholeness/awareness ... and that is the experiencing self clearly (I can't say I "see" self; more "see from openness"). This doesn't mean, by the way that there's no perception, or conditioning coloring the view ... but there's a near-infinite amount of conceptual distortion that is now absent ... and it's very nice .... call it whatever we may.
quote:
[quote]That's why discussing it all over-much is very, very VERY much second-priority to practicing, inquiring-observing, and knowing for ourselves.
Amen to that and thank you so much Kirtanman
Thank you; Katrine!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2010 : 08:23:29 AM
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Hi Kirtanman
quote:
I don't know if that clarifies .... but it's a genuine attempt.
Well you see that is just it. For the first time in my life I am not muddled beyond myself. From here - all that matters is that I see myself clearly. And only my own clarity is what is here to work with. I cannot work with your clarity - no matter how clear it is - it is where you are.
From here it does not occur to me that anybody else needs my clarification. All can be as it is (no agreeing needs to happen - it speaks for itself - uniquely in everyone) - without me trying to change it.
Thank you for all your heart and energy.
May you and all beings be well and happy.
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2010 : 10:19:47 AM
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2010 : 7:11:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi Kirtanman
quote:
I don't know if that clarifies .... but it's a genuine attempt.
Well you see that is just it. For the first time in my life I am not muddled beyond myself. From here - all that matters is that I see myself clearly. And only my own clarity is what is here to work with. I cannot work with your clarity - no matter how clear it is - it is where you are.
From here it does not occur to me that anybody else needs my clarification. All can be as it is (no agreeing needs to happen - it speaks for itself - uniquely in everyone) - without me trying to change it.
Thank you for all your heart and energy.
May you and all beings be well and happy.
Hi Katrine,
Beautiful comments; thank you.
If I'm understanding you, and I feel I am, at least generally, our experience is not different --- or, rather, "your experience, and mine, with respect to felt need to convince others of anything would seem to have the same general qualities".
Please let me know, if you like, if you feel that this isn't the case.
Like you, I don't presume to know anything about any experiencing other than {quote} my own {unquote}.
When I speak of agreement, or say something like "I hope that clarifies", or whatever, I mean it solely in a conversational sense.
The context for my "agreement" comments, was that, per certain terms and phrases used in this thread, it seemed that Anthem and I, and subsequently Sparkle and I, and most recently you and I, might not "be on the same page", so to speak, but it turned out that our shared view is at least approximately, quite similar, it would seem.
And whether it is or isn't, happily, matters not at all.
The views themselves matter not at all; views happen -- but fixed conceptual reference-points, when confused with reality, are the very infrastructure of the dream-state ... which is exactly perfect, as is everything.
I have no attachment to agreement -- mine, or anyone else's -- which it seems you are saying as well, yes?
The entanglements of concept-based attachments are pretty much the entire problem (without them, how can any problem be conceived?).
For me, conversations (perfect example being this thread) are enjoyable. I "happily debate" in my private life (with my kids, with friends on Facebook and elsewhere, etc.), as well -- everything from politics, to spiritual views, to "you name it".
It's fun for me; recreation.
Do I feel any attachment to the views I sometimes enthusiastically express, or the "sides" I may seem to take?
Ze-ro.
That would imply perception of imperfection (aka non-wholeness) -- which isn't happening here.
A few others here seem to enjoy it (that type of conversation; exchange of ideas and views; "point-counterpoint" types of dialog, too -- as evidenced by the length of certain posts and threads).
However, this tendency of mine may make it seem there are strong views or opinions "here"; there aren't.
For those who don't find such dialog to literally be fun, this tendency of mine may be confusing; it needn't be ---- it just Kirtanman "Kirtanmanning"  --- having fun in one of the myriad ways I enjoy; that's all.
Everything is as it is and is perfect as it is.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 19 2010 11:24:44 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2010 : 09:58:21 AM
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Hi Kirtanman
quote:
If I'm understanding you, and I feel I am, at least generally, our experience is not different --- or, rather, "your experience, and mine, with respect to felt need to convince others of anything would seem to have the same general qualities".
Please let me know, if you like, if you feel that this isn't the case.
The great relief here comes from the fact that the need to convince others of THAT or anything is dissolving.
quote:
The context for my "agreement" comments, was that, per certain terms and phrases used in this thread, it seemed that Anthem and I, and subsequently Sparkle and I, and most recently you and I, might not "be on the same page", so to speak, but it turned out that our shared view is at least approximately, quite similar, it would seem.
The need for everybody to be "on the same page" is dissolving. This sameness - is irrelevant here now. No inner urge here is drawing me to debate (be it for fun, recreational pleasures or work) to establish "sameness" - be it on paper, screens or otherwise.
All that matters here now is that I am present on my own "page"
Much love Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2010 : 2:01:40 PM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi Kirtanman
quote:
If I'm understanding you, and I feel I am, at least generally, our experience is not different --- or, rather, "your experience, and mine, with respect to felt need to convince others of anything would seem to have the same general qualities".
Please let me know, if you like, if you feel that this isn't the case.
The great relief here comes from the fact that the need to convince others of THAT or anything is dissolving.
Yes, it is a great relief -- that's how I experienced/experience it, as well.
quote:
quote:
The context for my "agreement" comments, was that, per certain terms and phrases used in this thread, it seemed that Anthem and I, and subsequently Sparkle and I, and most recently you and I, might not "be on the same page", so to speak, but it turned out that our shared view is at least approximately, quite similar, it would seem.
The need for everybody to be "on the same page" is dissolving. This sameness - is irrelevant here now. No inner urge here is drawing me to debate (be it for fun, recreational pleasures or work) to establish "sameness" - be it on paper, screens or otherwise.
All that matters here now is that I am present on my own "page"
Cool; the lack of that inner urge for those activities seems to be the case for most people, anyway. A few of us enjoy it. All perfect, as all always is, now.
And no urge here, either --- discussion happens, and it's enjoyable --- that's all.
Much love to you, as well, Katrine.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- I'm not quite understanding your use of the term "my own" (i.e. "my own page"), as you've said above. I'm guessing it's just a "languaging"/phrasing thing ... but you've used similar phrasing a few times in this brief dialog, and the context seems to be "my own and not anyone else's" ...
Yet, most of us who've been "at this awhile", such as yourself, even in day-to-day life, seem to experience ever-increasing dissolution of the artificial sense of "my" (and the natural balance of lack of reference back to it) as the key, or at least an extremely major key, to (for lack of better terms) enlightenment/living unbound/living free of suffering, etc.
And so, I'm not presuming anything about your phrasing ... other than that I'm presuming it is just a matter of phrasing ... but I am curious as to what you do mean, when referring to "my" in the specific ways I'm referencing, if you care to elaborate.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2010 : 4:55:53 PM
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Hi Kirtanman
quote:
PS- I'm not quite understanding your use of the term "my own" (i.e. "my own page"), as you've said above. I'm guessing it's just a "languaging"/phrasing thing ... but you've used similar phrasing a few times in this brief dialog, and the context seems to be "my own and not anyone else's" ...
Yes.
In the opening and expressing that is this body, mind, heart, spirit.
quote:
Yet, most of us who've been "at this awhile", such as yourself, even in day-to-day life, seem to experience ever-increasing dissolution of the artificial sense of "my" (and the natural balance of lack of reference back to it) as the key, or at least an extremely major key, to (for lack of better terms) enlightenment/living unbound/living free of suffering, etc.
Yes.
But it does not end here for me. The dissolution of the me is the beginning of something else that never ends.
It is not for me - it is for everybody else.
My recent shift was very painful, because I saw how I had been busy enjoying awareness, unboundedness, freedom, ecstacy and talking about awareness to others - to the extent that I was not available where I was needed the most: Here - in this body. Places of holding and physical desires is still operating in the body even though the me is dissolving/ dissolved. Being aware of them is important here - or else they will be running a hidden part of the show and so make me less available for the light. Likewise - in daily living, there are things that needs be done. My flying high in the living unboundedness had me not take properly care of certain mundane but very needed things. My body included. It has needs. Structure is needed as well as free flow.
When I talk and talk (straight from consciousness-awareness), or am busy enjoying all kinds of things (being present to them), or am staying put on some level of unboundedness (this is actually possible) then I am less available to this that happens after the me is dissolving/dissolved.
And since this particular expression of this that never ends can only manifest through this body, mind, heart and spirit - it is all that matters here now - that I am present where I am.
My own page - not yours or anyone elses.
It is really very simple.
The light has so much to do.......hopefully now it can operate more unhindered here.
May you be well nourished, happy, peaceful and warm Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2010 : 11:19:32 PM
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Hi Katrine,
Very helpful response; thank you.
The only part I'm not quite sure I'm understanding is:
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
When I talk and talk (straight from consciousness-awareness), or am busy enjoying all kinds of things (being present to them), or am staying put on some level of unboundedness (this is actually possible) then I am less available to this that happens after the me is dissolving/dissolved.
... because the parenthetical comments include qualities/modes of awareness-being that are normally considered positive ... and yet, per your comments, you feel that they cause you to be "less available".
Per your overall, post, and your last few posts, I think I understand the general context and sense of things, which is:
Too much transcendence, too much "unboundedness" -- can actually be problematic, because it is a shift too far the other direction, so to speak .... from over-identification with form, to essentially over-identification with transcendence ..... yes?
Transcendence and immanence are opposites, in duality .. and the true natural state is one of effortless, natural balance between both, I'd say, and experience -- and thus, would agree with what you've written (if I've re-stated your view, and what you've said, accurately).
Being awake, I'd say, means allowing the natural balance of awakeness to manifest through us; relaxing into the real, and effortlessly flowing with it all - living is harmony -- only artificial concepts can make it seem otherwise, I've found.
And, not that it matters -- but it seems that we're both saying this same thing, in slightly different ways.
quote:
May you be well nourished, happy, peaceful and warm Kirtanman
I Am.
May you and all be well nourished, happy, peaceful and warm, as well.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 02:13:38 AM
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Hi Kirtanman
Like I said in my first post - what I can say about you or anyone else or THAT speaks only of me - not you or them or THAT.
I am very, very relieved to know that I cannot ever understand you or anyone else or THAT. I can only be myself.
So I continue to practice and avoid nothing.
Other than that I have nothing more to say about this.
It is all there in my posts and it speaks for itself.
All the best. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 2:33:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi Kirtanman
Like I said in my first post - what I can say about you or anyone else or THAT speaks only of me - not you or them or THAT.
I am very, very relieved to know that I cannot ever understand you or anyone else or THAT. I can only be myself.
So I continue to practice and avoid nothing.
Other than that I have nothing more to say about this.
It is all there in my posts and it speaks for itself.
All the best.
Perfect.
Whatever works for each of us, in any given moment, is the thing to do, of course.
Thanks again, Katrine.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 2:57:15 PM
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Hi Katrine and All
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
So I continue to practice and avoid nothing.
Katrine....can you (are you willing to) put words to what you feel you were avoiding before your recent realization? What were you avoiding before, that you aren't anymore?
Love!
*Edit* My interpretation of what you are saying in your above posts is that you are choosing to no longer avoid "your humanity"....I am just curious to know if my interpretation of your posts is basically what you are driving at, or if I am way off the mark here. Thanks for any and all clarification you choose to give. _/\_ |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 21 2010 3:09:50 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 04:35:42 AM
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Hi Carson
quote:
Katrine....can you (are you willing to) put words to what you feel you were avoiding before your recent realization? What were you avoiding before, that you aren't anymore?
Love!
In short - my body.
The difficulty in hindsight was that I was not aware of avoiding anything, it was not a conscious avoiding, it was a habit that slowly established itself over the years.
I was outside the body a lot of the time, not as in travelling other realms, simply in expanded awareness/consciousness that was not properly grounded in the body. It is a powerful state to be in - it is fully possible to flow from there. Both in words and deeds. But in that - I was not properly aware of my body, and so not fully present to it's needs and desires, for instance not drink enough water, not being aware of tensions in the body etc.
Also - falling inwards like when in deep meditation (except without the mantra) - would happen outside sitting. I would repeatedly fall inwards with eyes open and in activity, and this is not releasing (Samyama) - it is escaping the body. In other words: instead of releasing into silence and stay present in the body, I would fall inwards and not be fully here. That is why I just sit now. This habit must be broken.
It is working well so far - it is a new and clear and loving joyful feeling to totally inhabit the body. When I become aware of tensions in it now, I look at them from inside and most of them release themselves in that look. Also - the recent months of tai chi, yoga postures and also recent massages is contributing greatly to this proper home coming. My body is my home - - I have to laugh.....it is very humorous.....LOL.....
quote:
*Edit* My interpretation of what you are saying in your above posts is that you are choosing to no longer avoid "your humanity"....I am just curious to know if my interpretation of your posts is basically what you are driving at, or if I am way off the mark here. Thanks for any and all clarification you choose to give. _/\_
Yes - that's it, you are spot on. My humanity is my body. And I am in it now. So there you have it all......in a nutshell 
Music and poetry are coming in this homecoming. So I am looking for a part time job here now - in order for this expression to happen outside the pressure of making money. Must do a Samyama on that now.... come to think of it :) That was another part of what I was not taking seriously. Donations cannot sustain my living. Whatever the light wants - I will do - hopefully something will turn up. I will keep my donation based meditation groups, even establish new ones if the chance comes and I can afford it financially. And keep translating the AYP work to Norwegian - I am going back to Norway many times a year - to see my daughters and give AYP meditation cources.
And one more gem has come my way:
On the Insight Dialogue retreat I was exposed to live Buddhist teachings for the first time. Gregory Kramer is a wonderful teacher, and the Dhamma/Dharma of the Buddha through him had a profound impact here. I am doing Dhamma contemplations now - with friends from the retreat. It is sharpening the mind in different ways, without leading to mental activity. It too is helping the embodiment.
Hope you and your family are well Carson - I know you are grounded - Amrita Grace must be a gem of an anker. I know my kids were - and they still have that effect on me |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 12:03:52 PM
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Hi Katrine
Thanks for being willing to clarify for me. I think I have a better understanding of what you are saying now. Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
quote:
Katrine....can you (are you willing to) put words to what you feel you were avoiding before your recent realization? What were you avoiding before, that you aren't anymore?
In short - my body.
The difficulty in hindsight was that I was not aware of avoiding anything, it was not a conscious avoiding, it was a habit that slowly established itself over the years.
I think I have/had the same habit. Years and years of drug addiction helped to solidify this habit for me I think. Getting high all day everyday caused an inadvertent "escaping" from the body. I think AYP has certainly helped me to become more grounded in my body, but I don't know that I am fully "in my body" yet. It wasn't until being fairly well established in my AYP routine, and after getting off of opiates, that I started to be able to recognize sensations in the body for the first time (at least in a decade or so). I pretty much lived "outside of myself". Not sure exactly where, but it was certainly not "in the body", as it was completely new for me when I started to become aware of bodily sensations (again)....especially the inner energies.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
I was outside the body a lot of the time, not as in travelling other realms, simply in expanded awareness/consciousness that was not properly grounded in the body. It is a powerful state to be in - it is fully possible to flow from there. Both in words and deeds. But in that - I was not properly aware of my body, and so not fully present to it's needs and desires, for instance not drink enough water, not being aware of tensions in the body etc.
Totally understand where you are coming from here. I was a vegetarian for all of my drug addicted years, and I was SOOOOOO unhealthy because of it. But I was so "outside the body" that I didn't really notice. It wasn't until (again) I was established in my AYP routine and no longer on opiates, that I realized how unhealthy my body was and started eating properly (including starting eating meat again) and taking better care of my body. I have gained over 20 pounds since then, and it was certainly needed. I was considerably underweight and chronically dehydrated as well. I still am likely a bit dehydrated at times, but at least now I am more aware of it and usually take the appropriate action to rectify.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Also - falling inwards like when in deep meditation (except without the mantra) - would happen outside sitting. I would repeatedly fall inwards with eyes open and in activity, and this is not releasing (Samyama) - it is escaping the body. In other words: instead of releasing into silence and stay present in the body, I would fall inwards and not be fully here. That is why I just sit now. This habit must be broken.
I understand the "falling inward" bit, but I don't know that I understand how "just sitting" will break you of this habit. Perhaps you can/will clarify for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
It is working well so far - it is a new and clear and loving joyful feeling to totally inhabit the body.
Yes....it is nice to be fully present, right here right now
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
When I become aware of tensions in it now, I look at them from inside and most of them release themselves in that look. Also - the recent months of tai chi, yoga postures and also recent massages is contributing greatly to this proper home coming. My body is my home - - I have to laugh.....it is very humorous.....LOL.....
Yes, the body is "home". It's almost like coming full circle. Many of us likely start out feeling that the body is everything....we are the body. Then some of us come to know the "self" as unbound awareness. And then eventually we come back full circle to realize that we are both the body AND the unbound awareness. That they are not mutually exclusive. It kinda reminds me of a book I have just started reading. It's called "The Way of the Superior Man, A Spiritual Guide to Mastering the Challenges of Women, Work, and Sexual Desire" by David Deida. I'm only a little ways into it (received it as a gift last night), but what I am getting from the book already is that men and women in the past have had certain "roles" we have been playing. Men were typically masculine, went to work, got paid, etc etc. Women were the typical homemakers and took care of the children. Then in the 60's men started to "get more in touch with their feminine side" as women started to become more "feminist" and we started to even out the "sexual polarity" that had been prominent for so long. But this even-ing of the polarity began to cause unhappiness in our male/female intimate relationships. The trend towards a 50/50 even-ing of the sexual polarities resulted in economic and social equality, but also resulted in sexual neutrality. NOW, we need to complete the circle....come all the way back home again, to being fully male, and fully female, but in a different way then how things were prior to the 60's. Haven't made it far enough in the book yet to know exactly HOW David Dieda suggests this will look in manifested form, but I look forward to getting into it 
I also agree that it is good to be centered in the body. I find that yoga postures have certainly helped me to become more "in touch" with my body. They have also really helped me to learn to recognize physical (and energetic) blockages in the body.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Music and poetry are coming in this homecoming. So I am looking for a part time job here now - in order for this expression to happen outside the pressure of making money. Must do a Samyama on that now.... come to think of it :) That was another part of what I was not taking seriously. Donations cannot sustain my living. Whatever the light wants - I will do - hopefully something will turn up.
I pray that you find exactly what you are looking for. I'm sure that exactly what you need will be knocking on your door soon.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
And one more gem has come my way:
On the Insight Dialogue retreat I was exposed to live Buddhist teachings for the first time. Gregory Kramer is a wonderful teacher, and the Dhamma/Dharma of the Buddha through him had a profound impact here. I am doing Dhamma contemplations now - with friends from the retreat. It is sharpening the mind in different ways, without leading to mental activity. It too is helping the embodiment.
Wonderful to hear Katrine  . I liked Greg Kramers "Insight Dialogue" book....and there is much in Buddhism that I find very valuable. I have kinda come full circle in my perspective of Buddhism as well. When I was about 16 or 17 I considered myself a Buddhist...read all the literature I could get my hands on.....started a chapter of Students for a Free Tibet at my school, really felt a deep connection to the Buddha. But over time I became disallusioned with it and "moved on". Eventually this turned itself into thoughts that Buddhism was just another dogmatic system of religion like any other organized religion. But now I am back full circle to being able to take what resonates (not just from Buddhism either but also from Christianity, and many other organized religions) and leave the rest.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hope you and your family are well Carson - I know you are grounded - Amrita Grace must be a gem of an anker. I know my kids were - and they still have that effect on me
We are well, thank you .....Amrita is such a blessing already. Just looking at/thinking about her makes my heart swell to proportions I never imagined were possible. The amount of love I feel for her is truly astronomical. And yes, she certainly keeps me (more) grounded. Can't float away when another's life is dependent on you right here right now
Thanks again for taking the time to clarify for me. I really appreciate it _/\_ Namaste.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 22 2010 12:34:17 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 7:04:42 PM
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Hi Carson
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Also - falling inwards like when in deep meditation (except without the mantra) - would happen outside sitting. I would repeatedly fall inwards with eyes open and in activity, and this is not releasing (Samyama) - it is escaping the body. In other words: instead of releasing into silence and stay present in the body, I would fall inwards and not be fully here. That is why I just sit now. This habit must be broken.
I understand the "falling inward" bit, but I don't know that I understand how "just sitting" will break you of this habit. Perhaps you can/will clarify for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
It is working well so far - it is a new and clear and loving joyful feeling to totally inhabit the body.
Yes....it is nice to be fully present, right here right now
Yes - I was present in the now. But not fully in the here :) I was aware of the body as a unit, but my center of "gravity and grace"....if that makes sense....was outside it. I would normally feel that the body was in me, not the other way around.
Anyway - to be IN the body as well now is delightful as well as educating. To begin with - before the shift was integrated - it was also very painful. Becoming aware of unseen desires and thought constructions that was surfacing when awareness made full contact with the body was quite a shock. It clarified my past in a different way, and had me see exactly where I had been blind, and where the potential for more blindness can happen if not properly in the body. The heart was in deep pain for more than a week, and since I could not use the mantra.....and was not balanced.......it was very difficult. But everything passes.
The center of gravity and grace now seems to be in the solar plexus, and my feet are flushing out releases from the body when they happen.
The "just sitting" when in meditation is of great help. I am touching all of the body from inside it, the mind is quiet and the heart calm. If something stirs itself up....I just sit.....and it dissolves. Between meditations this is what happens too. Falling inwards with the mantra will have to wait until I am stable. If and when it is time to intone it again - I will know. When I just sit.....the silence is still roaring....but I don't dive down into it, the depth is "coming up" instead. That is what the sitting is accomplishing right now - stability, groundedness, clarity and compassion happening in the body. Yesterday and today I have done Samyama at the end of the practice. The ecstatic radiance and unboundedness and expandedness is still here, the shine is here...but there is no interest in any of it. I sit 30 minutes twice a day.
Thanks for sharing so openly as usual Carson.
Much love to you and your family
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 11:28:46 AM
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Hi Katrine
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Yes - I was present in the now. But not fully in the here :) I was aware of the body as a unit, but my center of "gravity and grace"....if that makes sense....was outside it. I would normally feel that the body was in me, not the other way around.
Makes perfect sense .
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Anyway - to be IN the body as well now is delightful as well as educating. To begin with - before the shift was integrated - it was also very painful. Becoming aware of unseen desires and thought constructions that was surfacing when awareness made full contact with the body was quite a shock. It clarified my past in a different way, and had me see exactly where I had been blind, and where the potential for more blindness can happen if not properly in the body. The heart was in deep pain for more than a week, and since I could not use the mantra.....and was not balanced.......it was very difficult. But everything passes.
I'm sure once "the shift" is fully integrated (if it isn't already) the joy of daily life will be even more present (and fully enjoyed/embraced) then it was before.
Was "the pain" you felt mostly emotional/spiritual, or was there an element of physical pain involved with centering the awareness in the body?
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
The center of gravity and grace now seems to be in the solar plexus, and my feet are flushing out releases from the body when they happen.
Wonderful . Do you ever have acupuncture done? I have found that acupuncture (in combination with my daily asana practice) is a great tool for becoming more aware of and centered in the body.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
The "just sitting" when in meditation is of great help. I am touching all of the body from inside it, the mind is quiet and the heart calm. If something stirs itself up....I just sit.....and it dissolves. Between meditations this is what happens too.
So essentially (if I am understanding you correctly) you have switched from using the AYP DM procedure to a practice of "mindfullness" (both during sitting practices and while out in daily life)?
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Falling inwards with the mantra will have to wait until I am stable. If and when it is time to intone it again - I will know. When I just sit.....the silence is still roaring....but I don't dive down into it, the depth is "coming up" instead. That is what the sitting is accomplishing right now - stability, groundedness, clarity and compassion happening in the body.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Yesterday and today I have done Samyama at the end of the practice. The ecstatic radiance and unboundedness and expandedness is still here, the shine is here...but there is no interest in any of it. I sit 30 minutes twice a day.
Hey....if it's working....why screw with a good thing right? I'm happy that you have "turned this corner" so to speak. You sound like you have "filled in some gaps" and that this is just what you need right now. I wish you continued success and much silence and bliss.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Much love to you and your family
Likewise Katrine. Thank you.
Love!
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2010 : 02:14:02 AM
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Hi Carson
quote:
Was "the pain" you felt mostly emotional/spiritual, or was there an element of physical pain involved with centering the awareness in the body?
Oh yes. There was intense physical pain (mainly in the chest - but some days, the whole body was in deep pain) as well as emotional and spiritual pain. It was worse than after my mom died 3 years ago.
quote:
Wonderful . Do you ever have acupuncture done? I have found that acupuncture (in combination with my daily asana practice) is a great tool for becoming more aware of and centered in the body.
Have not used it for this, no (just for health things earlier in my life).
I don't think I need it now. When the touch between my look and the body happens - it is penetrating and dissolving - the release is instant, and so it seems that awareness is able to both "needle" and "stimulate" and "flush out". I trust it with all my heart. The massages are also great - the physical touch (done from - and in - a space of reverence and presence) is felt to be a deep caring...a full compassion in itself. When in massage, I am "meeting the touch" from the inside. So the body is then touched from both the outside and inside. I had no idea how much I needed that - on all levels. So I am very grateful.
quote:
So essentially (if I am understanding you correctly) you have switched from using the AYP DM procedure to a practice of "mindfullness" (both during sitting practices and while out in daily life)?
Yes and no.
The mantra - it is here. It is calling me from the heart. Both in practice and between sittings. I am aware of this faint call but I don't allow it to "pull me in beyond the mind". So yes - the mindfulness is done on purpose when I sit. First of all, I am mindful (aware) of the body from the inside. Then I am mindful (aware) of what is coming/going. I am also aware of the faint call of the mantra. Slowly, slowly - I will experiment with this balance. Letting myself be pulled down....but not without loosing touch with the "surface". This way, I am not falling into the ecstatic lure, yet am still faintly "charmed". When things even out, we will see where my practice is at.
As for mindfulness between the sittings - this is not something I am willfully practicing. When I am not willfully distracting myself, mindfulness is always here. It is automatic, and this developed naturally over the years, I just did not have a name for it then. I just liked the feeling of being more and more present - with myself, objects and after a while the presence itself, and so the need to distract myself dropped more and more. Like this - I was naturally "taken here". I can intensify this on retreats or anywhere, but it then always has to o with the fact that I am not willfully distracting myself. Does that make sense to you?
I am very aware of the fact that it cannot be just mindfulness for me. The mantra feels essential. It does what mindfulness does not. Maybe I will be more able to describe this when I am further along the process. When the tendency to leave the body is gone, I may end up still doing 2 sittings pr day - one sitting of mindfulness and one sitting of diving deep with the mantra. But I don't know the outcome of this yet.
quote:
Hey....if it's working....why screw with a good thing right? I'm happy that you have "turned this corner" so to speak. You sound like you have "filled in some gaps" and that this is just what you need right now. I wish you continued success and much silence and bliss.
Thank you so much Carson - I wish you that too
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2010 : 06:47:21 AM
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Hi
Just a short update.
I am back with the mantra.
2 minutes of SBP, 10 minutes of DM and 5 minutes Samyama twice a day.
The mindfulness practice...just sitting silently for the past few weeks did wonders. Not only did it balance out the energetic overload - it also brought a lot of insight into why the tendency to fall into ecstacy and expansive states was such a deeply ingrained habit. It uncovered the drives behind it.
Always having to scale back on practices was actually something that also contributed to this very habit being kept in place...it was allowed to stay this way until the stubbornness was revealed for what it was :) It is a funny thing.....but identification with the symptoms of the overload...was kept in place through self-pacing. It is something to be aware of....because the DM is so powerful and takes us so deep very quickly......self-pacing is more important than in other systems. But - at least for me - it took more than just self-pacing to release this pattern. Since insights may not come when in non-clarity. So I am very grateful for all the help the mindfulness insight meditation provided. It is a wonderful practice that is staying with me in the way I prepare for - and also end my DM sittings now. I start with just sitting and bringing all the presence into the body, and I end the meditation session this way too. This ensures a grounding that stays throughout the DM and Samyama session, and is the way I rest after meditation, and is also the way I stay naturally grounded in the body between meditation sessions. Within.....within......and within.
There is still nothing to be said about THAT
And I am grateful for that
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2010 : 7:59:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi
Just a short update.
I am back with the mantra.
2 minutes of SBP, 10 minutes of DM and 5 minutes Samyama twice a day.
The mindfulness practice...just sitting silently for the past few weeks did wonders. Not only did it balance out the energetic overload - it also brought a lot of insight into why the tendency to fall into ecstacy and expansive states was such a deeply ingrained habit. It uncovered the drives behind it.
Always having to scale back on practices was actually something that also contributed to this very habit being kept in place...it was allowed to stay this way until the stubbornness was revealed for what it was :) It is a funny thing.....but identification with the symptoms of the overload...was kept in place through self-pacing. It is something to be aware of....because the DM is so powerful and takes us so deep very quickly......self-pacing is more important than in other systems. But - at least for me - it took more than just self-pacing to release this pattern. Since insights may not come when in non-clarity. So I am very grateful for all the help the mindfulness insight meditation provided. It is a wonderful practice that is staying with me in the way I prepare for - and also end my DM sittings now. I start with just sitting and bringing all the presence into the body, and I end the meditation session this way too. This ensures a grounding that stays throughout the DM and Samyama session, and is the way I rest after meditation, and is also the way I stay naturally grounded in the body between meditation sessions. Within.....within......and within.
There is still nothing to be said about THAT
And I am grateful for that
Beautiful; thanks very much for the update, Katrine.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2010 : 10:23:17 PM
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Hi Katrine,
Thanks for sharing this insight, I have experienced the same just recently, identification with the symptom of overload, in my case irritability was the symptom that was an inadvertent cause of continued perceived need to self-pace. In other words, every time I experienced irritability after a sitting session, I worried that it was due to being over so I self-paced thinking that too much practice time was the source of the irritability. It turns out the source was identification with the irritability and worry about its consequences that kept it from letting go. Good to be aware of thanks for putting it out here!
I was going to ask you if you were diligent about doing the AYP asanas routine prior to sitting practices? I am certainly not and am guilty of skipping this often, sometimes for weeks at a time and I notice when I do miss the 10-15 minutes or so of asanas, things are less smooth after practices, so it may be an integral part of the balance in the AYP daily system.
Lot's of love!
Anthem
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2010 : 5:14:31 PM
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Hi Andrew
Thanks for sharing
Very interesting that you recognize a similar dynamic!
It is wonderful to be back with the mantra.....
If there is a tendency to ecstatically disappear again, I will immediately switch to insight meditation until it smooths out. But so far, I am good
quote:
I was going to ask you if you were diligent about doing the AYP asanas routine prior to sitting practices? I am certainly not and am guilty of skipping this often, sometimes for weeks at a time and I notice when I do miss the 10-15 minutes or so of asanas, things are less smooth after practices, so it may be an integral part of the balance in the AYP daily system.
Lot's of love!
Anthem
I love the feeling of a fit body, most days I do a few yoga postures in the morning (I am not at all any good at it...but it works all the same, he he). They open the body and make it easier to stay grounded. But - I can also say that if I overstretch, that too can lead to overload...
He he.......I have to laugh......all this fuss......in the never changing roar.......
Much love to you too
PS
Incredible.... all the body puts up with......truly amazing....our bodies are walking pieces of magnificent earth......Such a guru, the body is. Always tending to it's tasks as they appear. Always....no matter what the task is. Now if that is not unconditional love - we tell me, yes?
Peace on Earth
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Rumighoul
11 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 10:20:20 AM
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Hi folks, I read this thread with interest today, not having read any of Jed Mckenna´s stuff before. I followed up with some of the videos on Youtube - i´m a little embarrassed to be making such a gauche comment, but I found it all a tad depressing , lacking in a sense of joy to balance out the shock of the awareness of the "infinite black cloud", infinite nothingness and aloneness (not that I want to use that to dismiss him). I´m only responding to those videos mind you - I did like the quotes at the start of the thread.
Just wondering but what does Kirtanmann or anyone else make of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KZ8QAUmr3U
where he seems to take aim at the doctrine of seeking silence of mind¨:
"We are all patients in Maya´s asylum, and all instructions to sit still and quiet the mind come directly from her....stillness and silence are the antithesis of the awakening process"
So far i´m resonating more with Byron Katie as a guide to deconstructing thoughts and beliefs, and of course with Yogani. I get the feeling Mr. Mckenna might say that´s just because they make me feel better or more hopeful about existence. Maybe. |
Edited by - Rumighoul on Apr 10 2011 10:59:51 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 7:01:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rumighoul
Hi folks, I read this thread with interest today, not having read any of Jed Mckenna´s stuff before. I followed up with some of the videos on Youtube - i´m a little embarrassed to be making such a gauche comment, but I found it all a tad depressing, lacking in a sense of joy to balance out the shock of the awareness of the "infinite black cloud", infinite nothingness and aloneness (not that I want to use that to dismiss him). I´m only responding to those videos mind you - I did like the quotes at the start of the thread.
Just wondering but what does Kirtanmann or anyone else make of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KZ8QAUmr3U
where he seems to take aim at the doctrine of seeking silence of mind¨:
"We are all patients in Maya´s asylum, and all instructions to sit still and quiet the mind come directly from her....stillness and silence are the antithesis of the awakening process"
So far i´m resonating more with Byron Katie as a guide to deconstructing thoughts and beliefs, and of course with Yogani. I get the feeling Mr. Mckenna might say that´s just because they make me feel better or more hopeful about existence. Maybe.
Hi Rumighoul,
Jed McKenna certainly isn't for everyone, in terms of what people comfortably "resonate" with. However, what we may "resonate" with comfortably, and what may help to facilitate or accelerate awakening are not always the same thing. You may be familiar with "Zen" alarm clocks -- clocks that gently chime bells to awaken one from slumber?
Well, spiritual-teacher-wise, Jed McKenna is the opposite.
He's the klaxon jarring you out of bed while somehow splashing cold water in your face at the same time, just to make sure you get the "WAKE UP!!!" part of the alarm clock's "message". And "WAKE UP!!!" *is* an alarm clock's message - whether that message is delivered gently, or not.
All statements by anyone need to be taken in context, and I'm presuming whoever Jed McKenna actually is, he's not aware of the power of paths like AYP. If someone bases their conclusions on yoga and meditation based simply on observation, the vast majority of people who practice yoga and meditation observably don't wake up, or get any closer to waking up, based on their practice. All religions and spiritual systems, even the most effective ones (not to mention other non-spiritual systems) have this kind of "pyramid" dynamic:
Most people kind of "skit along" the surface, and don't commit enough to gain the benefits. A smaller group in the middle may realize some benefits, but not the full potential the system has to offer. A very small group of the ultra-dedicated and consistent, in any effective spiritual system, realize the full benefit the system can offer -- which, in the case of any effective spiritual system is awakening/liberation.
Since Jed McKenna didn't awaken via a path utilizing yogic practices (he describes his inquiry-based path in his books), and since general observation would lead almost anyone who is awake to draw the same conclusion (that quieting one's mind in sitting meditation is basically useless, considering that most people who do this seem as lost in their daily lives as everyone else) ... I view Jed McKenna's statements on silence and Maya in that light.
Overall, I look at Jed McKenna's books and statements as I do everything, and as I do AYP, per what Yogani has said, over time:
With any system or teaching, take what seems beneficial, if anything, and leave the rest. There's no reason that any system has to be perfect ---- which is good, because none are. There's no reason to toss out the teachings of someone who expresses themselves more directly (like Jed McKenna) because they may not seem as "nice" as our mind is comfortable with -- but there's also no particular reason to spend any time with their teachings if we truly don't feel like they're helpful, either.
All teachings are road signs --- the only thing that matters is whether or not they are pointing us in the right direction.
And, by the way: I love Byron Katie and The Work; her system can be powerfully effective, especially for someone fairly new to spirituality and/or practices -- and well after that point for many, as well. She may seem "nicer" -- but she doesn't pull any punches, either. Both she and Jed McKenna are people who teach truth and liberation *as* truth and liberation -- just with very different styles.
Which is how it always goes.
Ekam sat vipra bahauda vadanti
That Which Is, is One; sages express it in various ways.
~Rig Veda I.164.46
Wholeness Is,
Kirtanman
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nodoubt
India
90 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2011 : 9:51:03 PM
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| What about the infinite joy, peace and loving response inherent in awakened awareness? Let alone the infinite potentials of creativity and possibilities within relationships. A one-sided nothingness is deep dark abyss of misery. |
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Jed McKenna
