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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 09:07:52 AM
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I have an acquaintance (in another country) diagnosed with schizophrenia and severe depression. He's very intelligent, to a fault (build out castles of theories about the world, all dire, all serve to crush him). He's suicidal. He doesn't get much exercise, though is in pretty good physical shape.
I've tried to persuade him to get into asana, to make coarse energy adjustments and maybe help resolve some of the depression and eventually get him into shape for meditation. He won't do it.....rejects class on style issues (he's in Rio, and I've checked and all the classes there are very touchy feely, not his thing....no Iyengar. I found one class that sounded worth checking out, and pushed him to try, but he never did. He doesn't take pushing well). I don't think it makes sense for him to work out of books...if he gets frustrated, it could worsen the depression, and it's hard to explain to a beginner working alone about how exactly to do chest opening (prime antidote for depression).
I could get him to read either of Yogani's books (he's a big reader), and he's open to meditation, but I'm extremely trepidatious about recommending meditation for someone so depressed. Classically, yogis NEVER have severely depressed people meditate (unless they have long histories of meditation and are sure it doesn't worsen the condition). The introspection, ths slowing down of metabolism, all exacerbate depression. One of the use of asana is, again, to make these coarse adjustments so someone can meditate.
So I've done nothing. And, rereading my message, maybe that's best. If he does meditation and it exacerbates the depression, I'd feel awful. Is there a solution here? Again, I have limited capability to push. I guess one thing I could do would be to fly down and personally get him started on asana...but he's not that close a friend. I hate to give up, because 1. I just do, and 2. he contacted me out of the blue last year, when I hardly know him and hadn't seen him for 8 yrs, and I take that to mean I'm called on to help solve. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 10:02:51 AM
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It's just one of those situations where one never knows.
Meditation can indeed interact negatively with severe depression (though it can help mild depression significantly at times).
You never know though. He could take to it like a duck to water. And if he finds it is exacerbating his depression, he could simply stop.
Truth is though, I'd also worry about deep meditation and schizophrenia. A condition like that significantly ups the risks associated with meditation events. Not only does supervision become more critical, but self-supervision (which is what self-pacing is) becomes more dubious.
Of course it depends on how mild/strong the schizophrenia is.
I hope he is treating his schizophrenia conventionally. That is one particular illness where modern medicine can make an enormous difference, and where other things tend to fail. If he is not, you can encourage him to do that.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 26 2006 10:05:29 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 10:19:49 AM
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Hey Jim,
Just a thought, but for an intelligent type of person who likes to read, maybe your friend will find Eckhart Tolle's "Power of Now" helpful as it certainly has theoretical appeal and is written by a person who was in a similar mental situation as your friend. I'm just finishing it and think it's an excellent tool for people to find some peace from inner turmoil.
I'm sure Yogani will comment on this, but I can't help think that 10 or 15 minutes of meditation and a couple of minutes of pranayama could only help this individual. Momentary touches into inner silence could help him find some relief and help move him towards inner peace? Maybe this is why he is in contact with you because this is what you can uniquely offer him? It’s worth offering, he can always decline.
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 10:25:37 AM
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Hi Jim:
I agree with David. Send him the Deep Meditation book, and let him decide. There are plenty of instructions in the book on regulating (or even stopping) practice if there is imbalance. The upside far exceeds the downside.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 12:35:23 PM
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Iv'e already mentioned the problem of meditation and depression. The other problem is that "letting him decide" assumes he's of sound mind. He's not.
Which brings up the issue of inner guru and self pacing. Schizophrenia means LOTS of internal voices telling you to do lots of things. And there is no distinguishing between the voices (I dated a schizophrenic, she was extremely smart and sensitive and spiritual, but she could not sort out the voices...it's a dead end). You simply cannot tell a schizophrenic to follow his inner guru.
Sigh. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 1:32:03 PM
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This is my experience. Meditation made my depression go away at start. I felt much better. Maybe because I learnt to relax and give my mind a break. But then once the purification started I got into a really bad depression again...this would result in me loosing interest in everything...so I would give up meditation too. The purification stopped, but in a while my depression came back, because my mind had no rest. This was like a vicious cycle with me. This was of course when I was not following the AYP method. But since I have started AYP's method of Deep mediation, along with Spinal breathing and LOTS of rest afterwards(as per Yogani's advice), I have never gone back into very severe depression again. I do still get depressed sometimes, but I can handle it, with of course Yogani's advice of self pacing. So maybe, Yogani's book will help him.
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 2:37:31 PM
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Hi Jim:
Voices or not, it is still the person's choice to listen to one source of information or the other. Case in point: The true story and movie, "A Beautiful Mind," about the journey of Nobel Prize winner, John Nash, through life with schizophrenia.
There have been about a half dozen who have written to me over the past couple of years with this problem to varying degrees. I suggested meditation to all of them with the normal advice about favoring the mantra over the scenery, self-pacing, etc. Half were able to continue with meditation and were helped. I don't know what happened to the other half. Have not heard from them.
If the situation is so degraded that no rational choice is possible, then it probably belongs in the medical system. But, as long as there is some rational communication between people, indicating the ability to choose, then meditation has a chance. The only prerequisite for deep meditation is that one can choose in a procedural way -- use the technique, and regulate it as necessary. If that ability is not there, then I agree, all bets are off. Not only for meditation, but probably for everything. Then it should be in the doctors' hands. It is unlikely you would have heard from this person at all if things were that degraded.
All of this is another way of saying that deep meditation is so easy that almost anyone can do it if they decide to. Deciding to or not deciding to is a choice that everyone is entitled to make. Of course, people need information to make decisions, and that is what AYP is about -- information. We can't really take responsibility for all the other information that someone is considering, real or imagined. All we can do is share what we know. The rest is up to them, or those who are caring for them.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 3:38:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani99
Voices or not, it is still the person's choice to listen to one source of information or the other. Case in point: The true story and movie, "A Beautiful Mind," about the journey of Nobel Prize winner, John Nash, through life with schizophrenia.
The movie was not true to life, nor was it true re: schizophrenia. That's not how it went with Nash; quite the contrary, in fact. Yogani, you're a wise and kind man and I thank you hugely for AYP, but nobody knows everything, and I get the impression you don't know much about schizophrenia. In that vacuum I'd implore you to be cautious about recommending AYP (or anything else) to people so afflicted. If you do decide to learn more, Hollywood movies may not be your best possible source of info.
AYP is the best thing ever for the mainstream, and I share your desire to spread the word. It's good for 99% of people. Caution is called for in recommending it to the 1% at the extreme ends of the bell curve.
quote:
There have been about a half dozen who have written to me over the past couple of years with this problem to varying degrees. I suggested meditation to all of them with the normal advice about favoring the mantra over the scenery, self-pacing, etc. Half were able to continue with meditation and were helped. I don't know what happened to the other half. Have not heard from them.
This is intended as positive?
No yogi in the world recommends meditation for the severely depressed. It is universally agreed to have dangerous potential for exacerbating things. Yogani, if you have mental health erudition to match your spiritual erudition, I'd be inclined to grant benefit of the doubt. But I think the genial can-do attitude that we love in you and which fires these practices so easily - and your bhakti-driven desire to see as many people as possible pushing the fronteirs of human spiritual evolution - might, along with inexperience on mental health issues, be pushing you to offer less than optimal advice in this one single realm. Your sample size of six (of which half have summarily disappeared) is unpersuasive.
I'd like to reemphasize that I'm talking about severe chronic depression. For lighter depression, meditation may or may not work, but is less of a risky proposition. My friend hovers on suicide, and one oughtn't experiment with people that close to the brink, in my opinion.
With all due respect (which is: a vast quantity)
J&K |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 4:19:38 PM
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Jim,
I share your concerns about the schzophrenia as you may have noted. Though I would myself go for a gentler response to Yogani. 
The problem with schizophrenia is, it does not just at times produce 'voices', but it also generally comes without the insight that the voices are not real, or that what they say is not true.
If that insight were always there, it would be much more manageable; then the schizophrenic episodes would be merely like it would be for a non-schizophrenic person who maintains insight through a series of hallucogenic 'trips'. Unfortunately it is not so easy for a person with schizophrenia.
I take it your friend's schizophrenia is not 'mild'? (Meaning mild in symptoms).
Is he getting good conventional treatment for it?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 26 2006 6:14:37 PM |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 5:04:02 PM
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Hi Jim:
Tough situation.
I do think it is unfair of you to post your dilema on an open forum seeking advice, and then telling someone who offers you their opinion that they just don't know anything about the subject. Its not my intention to take sides here but I felt your post ot Yogani bordered on rude.
Guy
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 6:21:27 PM
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Hi Jim:
I also recommended seeking medical help to the same six people. Several had been already and were looking for a different angle, so I gave it. There is also mental illness in my family which I deal with on a regular basis, so I have seen a little and know something about the application of light meditation and breathing techniques in that realm. Success is mixed, and risks are minimal, mainly because people with serious mental illness do not have the ability to practice steadily. It is self-regulating in that respect. In serious cases, the practice is more likely to be colored by the illness rather than the other way around. It just fizzles. So, why bother trying? Well, in my book every single person is worth trying for.
There is no claim here to know how to solve chronic mental health issues, or even physical health issues. That is why you read in AYP fairly often, "If you are sick, go see a doctor." In addition to that, anyone can choose as they wish from AYP. It is an "open source." In a very real sense, nothing here is "recommended." It is information that is available that can be applied, or not. Freedom of the press, you know.
The fact is, the AYP methods can and do help people with many sorts of health problems -- physical and mental. Indeed, the majority who come to AYP are looking for some kind of physical and/or mental relief. Those benefits are aside from the primary purpose of human spiritual transformation, which is what "health" is about anyway. In truth, there is no such thing as an ideal health situation short of enlightenment.
This does not mean AYP is offered as a cure all, though some would like for it to be. Maybe you were hoping too by bringing this thorny question in here? It isn't a cure all. AYP is for people with bhakti (spiritual desire) who are seeking to do something to promote their well-being and spiritual progress. Very often that bhakti is expressed as a desire for healing. I get asked about that every single day. Who am I to say, "No, you are not ready for this information." Instead, I say, "Here it is. Use it wisely. Or don't use it. It's up to you."
The reason why spiritual teachers run away from thorny mental health issues is the same reason why they run away from kundalini issues -- fear for their own prestige and survival. It is not out of concern for the aspirant's well-being. Most who have had kundalini sickness and gone to a "guru" will tell you that. It is too messy. No one likes messes. Well, we can tell them to go to the doctor (ship them off) and leave it alone. It is the easy option. Or we can suggest some gentle spiritual measures that might help, even as we are suggesting an intelligent medical approach at the same time. That's what I try and do.
The guru is in you.
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Nicole
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 7:06:33 PM
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Jim,
I find myself in similar situations. It is obvious that you are pasionate about the issue and of all people I can truley relate. (although there is no need to project these feelings onto the wrong person. I am sure Yogani understands) Unfortunatly the only thing you can do is provide your friend with the tools, it is his choice to use them or not. I know you feel because of his mentality he might not be capable of making the right decision but this is where you have to put your trust in the divine. Pushing usually makes the situation worse. Have you ever heard the saying: "Love is like quicksilver in the hand. Leave the fingers open and it stays. Clutch it, and it darts away."
Also, his condition might be karma for past events, depending on what you beleive, and he might just have to go through this in order to reach the light. Try to look for the positive. This may sound trivial but there is a reason for his present condition. It is your choice how you preceive it.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2006 : 08:47:36 AM
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It would be nice to give him something that would "make him better",
but often with mental illness what would really help them is not a quick fix, but long term. In my opinion, what a lot of them need is acceptance by other people, sort of mothering. They need people to treat them as if everything is OK with them. just ask them about everyday things, like What did you do today? How are you feeling? What are you going to have for dinner?
Ask about things you know they are interested in; TV shows, video games, books. They have plenty of reminders that they have problems.
They often can't concentrate enough to meditate, especially if they are on medication. Physical things are great if they don't have to sit still, but finding accepting people to do them with may be difficult. Often the best solution is the "halfway houses" supported by companies like Goodwill (in the USA) where a group of mentally ill people live together who are able to cope with society, but need help with paying the bills, reminding them to look socially acceptable, hygiene, etc. Each one needs different things. They're usually surprisingly together in some areas, but not all.
A lot of their problem is being exposed to people all day long who give them the feeling that something is wrong. They get distasteful looks from some people, others always trying to help them as if they aren't independent. So you may have to be good friends before you offer help.
Suicidal people mostly need someone to listen to them without judging or pushing them either way. Anything can make them more suicidal; telling them NOT to do it; telling them TO do it, feeling sorry for them, saying they're a good person, you never know. So listening is best.
Etherfish |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2006 : 09:56:30 AM
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Yogani, bravo for answering our concerns very well indeed.
Yogani said:
[With meditation in the case of mental illness] Success is mixed, and risks are minimal, mainly because people with serious mental illness do not have the ability to practice steadily. It is self-regulating in that respect. In serious cases, the practice is more likely to be colored by the illness rather than the other way around. It just fizzles.
Good perspective there, and surely very true. In the light of that, perhaps my own ideas are overly-cautious.
I also think Anthem's idea has potential, BTW.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 27 2006 3:09:50 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2006 : 5:59:20 PM
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quote:
Though I would myself go for a gentler response to Yogani."
I've been feeling guilty about it for days, and am only now starting to work down the thread. Very gradually and slowly, expecting to feel sickened by hurt feelings.
I wasn't trying to slap Yogani, I promise. Just trying to make a strong case for those reading along (now or in future) who might be in a position similar to mine, who might see Yogani's response, and shrug and figure "what the heck." I didn't feel it was the time for subtlety. These illnesses are formidable, and I really really wouldn't like to see people get hurt. I know something about schizophrenia (though I don't have it) and severe depression (I've had it, though not recently), and felt that a strong warning bell of dissent and caution was called for. I'm hoping not to repeat that sort of posting much, it's not fun. Yogani deserves our best possible vibes. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jan 28 2006 6:01:04 PM |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2006 : 9:11:16 PM
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Hi Jim:
Don't worry about it. Sometimes we just have to let go when we feel strongly about something. It's all part of the process.
The guru is in you.
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2006 : 11:53:44 AM
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Hi Jim:
Please except my apologies for my post regarding your response to Yogani. You're obviously a very intelligent and sensitive person.
I'm certain there was no ill intent on your part
We are one
Guy |
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2006 : 04:36:27 AM
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Dear friends, Im not an expert on szichophrenia. However I think that theres a degree of that phrenia in everybody in varying degrees. When it is to a high extent it is pathological and treated. According to the ancient study of vedanta, the series goes like this. Desire, fear,anger, loss of memory, delusion, persecution complex hallucination etc suicidal tendency and on it goes. The antidote as prescribed by vedanta is Bhava Advaita, on imagining that the multiplicity one sees in the universe is essentially fron the one source and therefore essentially one. There is no scope of the existence of two. However much one can read the vedanta scriptures and reduce the multifarious mind to a single perception that much the individual will be non schizophrenic. having said that I have people very close to me who are schizo and whom I have been able to help only in a very minimal way. One method i have known is to never tell the person that he/ she is wrong and is imagining things. Always agree with what they say but take them on the road to (so what) the worst which can happen is (only whatever it is) and or death which will happen to everybody some day. Anyway this is a very sensitive subject and should be handled on a case by case basis. It is a very difficult disease to deal with and for people close to the diseased person. Tons of compassion from lot of people will move the cosmic mind to make a correction too.
mystiq |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2006 : 4:27:03 PM
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quote:
One method i have known is to never tell the person that he/ she is wrong and is imagining things
Very true, alas. I worked with a schizophrenic I was in love with on this for years. She was extremely smart, intuitive, sensitive. She understood the overview of schizophrenia, though she was lost to her particular situation. We worked together on a yogic approach of trying to help her to find "other pathways" to judge the veracity of an impulse or "voice" she was experiencing. I used all my resourcefulness, as did she. We tried to treat it without emotion, as an interesting self-learnging pursuit, to see if it was possible to sort out the real info from the delusion. Witness, neutral observer, etc.
Classical thinking about schizophrenia says this is not possible. And while I hate to admit defeat, classical thinking is right. It's like a stitch in the mind/brain, and it's not something the witness can shine light on. It's a terrible, terrible, terrible disease. I don't know one report of a schizophrenic who ever developed "perspective" on their issue and was able to sort true vs false info generated in their mind.
This is all a lot more personal than I'd like to get here, but I'm typing it out in case any of you encounter a schizophrenic and consider trying yogic/spiritual tools to help them develop their witness. This person had awesome skills for that, and I tried to be a super patient mirror for her. If she couldn't do it, I don't think it can be done. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2006 : 08:35:23 AM
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I used to know a good looking young girl who was a schizophrenic also.
She wore too much makeup, but was intelligent and interesting to talk to. One day at lunch we had a conversation, and she got up in the middle of her sentence and left for no apparent reason. A couple weeks later she sat down with me, finished the sentence and continued the conversation! |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2006 : 10:37:24 AM
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Hi Etherfish:
What did you do? Did you say anything to her about the previous "luncheon"? I've never heard of that happening before.
Is there a term for that condition?
Guy |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2006 : 1:23:20 PM
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The problem with pointing out the lapse or other sorts of weirdness is that a schizophrenic will never say, "Oh, that darn disease!". Because the disease exists at the very point of identity and objectivity. Instead, if you do manage to convince them that they've done something weird or are experiencing delusion or acting out of delusional information, it will affect their deepest self image, and they will lash out at you and/or themselves. Even if they understand schizophrenia - even if they're a trained and talented psychologist! - they will not put the blocks in the proper place and truly understand that "I am a worthy person afflicted with a disease which just made me do something weird or take an improper course of thought or action." You never ever reach that conclusion. Perhaps you parrot the words, but you don't believe it.
Anyway, I'm hoping my case is getting more persuasive for urging great hesitation before launching a schizophrenic on a course requriing adherence to the council of an inner guru. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 03 2006 1:24:14 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2006 : 3:05:27 PM
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I agree, that's why I was advocating the mothering approach, or better yet just being their friend. I was working at Goodwill, where most of the employees were mentally ill, and some physically handicapped too. Often the two go together.
The girl was known to lash out at people with not much provocation, so I didn't want to bring up the subject of her leaving in the middle of a sentence. I found with most of the people there, that the best approach was to just be friendly. I would talk to them the same as I would to anyone else, starting with small talk, and slowly progress to see how much deeper they would go. Then you can find certain subjects they are interested in, and go from there. You find that they are not that different from supposedly "normal" people, but just have trouble in areas that affect their interaction with society. "Normal" people have just as many problems, but are able to interact. If you are condescending, or talk "down" to them in any way, they may not react, but they know it on some level. So you treat them like equals, and you find out they ARE equals, but society doesn't understand them. They just have trouble interacting in *normal* ways because society determines what is "normal", and the rules are mostly arbitrary. |
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