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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2010 : 07:29:23 AM
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Came across UG as opposed to J.
Anyone else listened to him or read his words ?
If so, how did you relate ? |
Edited by - AYPforum on Mar 05 2010 07:30:36 AM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2010 : 08:26:28 AM
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Yes I did. Some time before I ever heard of "Yoga", "Spirituality", "Enlightnement", et al. 
I liked him a lot. What he had to say and the way he said it. It made sense to me at the time (it still does). But he is not your convencional "guru" (or anti-guru). He is very interesting, in one word
There is a website on the net with his writings (well - sayings/interviews, as he never wrote a book) for free.
It is an interesting phenomenon that occurs occasionally with some "teachers". He always said he had nothing to teach anyone, yet people flocked to see him hehehe |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2010 : 3:29:21 PM
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I feel a bit burned out after reading the auto biographical content on the website and watching some of his live interviews.
He is like a walking conflict. Almost as though each sentence is constructed in a way that it demolishes something he has previously said, not in contradiction but in pure conflict.
It's compelling and repulsive in equal measure. I think he talks to our inner conflict even when we are not aware that there is one. On one hand I find myself in agreement with what he says, yet somewhere I am asking myself why he continuous to give interviews and answer questions.
It is clearly entertainment for those who listen and for UG it sometimes appears as if he is toying with the gathered crowd (I always remember the interview with the Sex Pistols with Bill Grundy in which they were encouraged to mis-behave and this seems similar.).
His condemnation of meditation and the assertation that if it is done correctly that it will lead to mental problems I found to be disconcerting. Again, some of what he said rings true in that it becomes an internal war which leaves the mind in a state of exhaustion and empty. I have found meditation to be like this, not relaxing at all. He says that the emptiness and stillness are only further thought and you have to have already known about them in order to put a name to the experience in the same way as other 'scenery' is experienced.
I have not seen any comments by Yogani on UG's monologues. I did see UG leave Byron Katie looking pretty confused even though it would seem to be taking a similar stance to UG it was if UG had somehow cottoned on to some uncertainty within BK and worked on that part of her. I a way that is real perception in action and that is a touch unsettling if he was a able to sense how someone was perceiving him and subtract the part that was not as strong (you could of course learn this through studying the other persons books and interviews in order to gain knowledge of where thos holes are, although this would mean UG was almost another Hannibal Lektor wearing a anti guru disguise).
For the first time I decided not to meditate for a couple of days just to see.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2010 : 4:44:05 PM
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Hi Karl and All:
It is amazing how much attention UG Krishnamurti got by saying, "Don't listen to me." And, quite obviously, through past associations and conspicuous confrontations with popular spiritual teachers of the time (see here).
He spent many years engaged in spiritual practices and pursuits. But never mind all that, so he advises. He claimed that where he ended up had nothing to do with any of that background. Really? No cause and effect? Is that what we see going on around here?
Was this another forgetful (enlightened) mountain climber?
Does it matter? Only to the degree it could divert sincere seekers into non-relational self-inquiry, and the kind of chaos UG's life exemplified. On the other hand, if he helps, by all means partake. You may be "ripe".
It is your call. 
The guru is in you.
PS: Karl, regarding your difficulties with meditation, perhaps we can address that if you can be more specific.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 06:42:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Karl and All:
It is amazing how much attention UG Krishnamurti got by saying, "Don't listen to me." And, quite obviously, through past associations and conspicuous confrontations with popular spiritual teachers of the time (see here).
He spent many years engaged in spiritual practices and pursuits. But never mind all that, so he advises. He claimed that where he ended up had nothing to do with any of that background. Really? No cause and effect? Is that what we see going on around here?
Was this another forgetful (enlightened) mountain climber?
Does it matter? Only to the degree it could divert sincere seekers into non-relational self-inquiry, and the kind of chaos UG's life exemplified. On the other hand, if he helps, by all means partake. You may be "ripe".
It is your call.
The guru is in you.
PS: Karl, regarding your difficulties with meditation, perhaps we can address that if you can be more specific.
Thank you for the reply,
"don't listen to me" is the same as "don't think of a blue tree". Negation is applied only after thinking or listening. UG was aware of that as he would study advertising on TV and was very well read.I often use the same technique with clients to good effect.
Anyway I digress.It's a long story but the result is that I no longer have any fear. I have instinctual fear, survival fear, but nothing else. My mind seems like a placid lake, even likes, dislikes, love and hate seem to have merged. I was a keen musician and listened to lots of music and this no longer gives me any pleasure as it seems to be just another sound in a world of sounds. That does not distress me, it's just the way it is. Maybe that's enlightenment, however it doesn't seem to matter one way or another as it seems to have flattened out all that I once thought I was and that is neither good or bad.
I feel I'm waiting on the platform of a station and can summon the train whenever I like. There seems to be a tipping point, a point of no return. I seem tranquil to this, yet some survival instincts are kicking and screaming to turn around and get the hell out of the train station.
Meditation might be veiling the truth and allowing me to stumble blindly and passively towards something that feels uncomfortably like the death of this body. Maybe if I stop then I return to the surface.
There seems to be an element of truth in this, a degree of logic. If I accept that everything experienced is internal then it follows there is no need for the body at all. If I am not the body then the body is not required. I will reach that state naturally at some point and this seems to be an unnatural quickening. Why try and reach that ultimate conclusion early ?
Some things UG says strike a chord. He seems to be more of a vessel speaking words than a real person, much of what he says are just words, a nasty buzz in the ear. I cannot judge him because he appears to be just another part of the overall equation which makes up my understanding (as you are), neither right or wrong. Maybe that is what is meant in the Bible as 'speaking in tongues'.
What I hear is that those who really do meditate end up with serious mental problems and it seems to me that someone who is considered insane would be functioning on another level which has similar consequences to the splitting of awareness from the body (the body goes on functioning without awareness).
I don't know about 'ripe' I'm not sure that has any meaning for me. The words seem to to be from another time, a far off place and they smack of a gathering of Souls.
That's as real as I can get to explaining this.
Added: I read the mountain climber passage. When I meditate I do so formally, all the rest of the time I now realise I am meditating informally and without intention, it's impossible to stop.
Was UG a forgetful climber ? I don't know, I don't get the sense that it matters. It's like reading a note nailed to a tree. It contains ambiguities, as you read it something changes for one person and different for the next. The note is simply a reflection of the person who reads it and that's the context that's placed around it. UG seems neutral to me, just like a note. Discussing what paper it is written on, or the way it has been pinned to the tree, is irrelevant. The message is the only thing that has any meaning, it is not an answer to anything just a series of lines and squiggles to be interpreted by the viewer. |
Edited by - karl on Mar 06 2010 07:43:40 AM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 10:14:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Meditation might be veiling the truth and allowing me to stumble blindly and passively towards something that feels uncomfortably like the death of this body. Maybe if I stop then I return to the surface.
Hi Karl:
Are you sure you are not over-intellectualizing the process? Where is this drama coming from? Deep meditation is not a veiling. It is an unveiling. While that is the gradual death of identified awareness (not the body), it is the birth of liberation -- the dawn of abiding inner silence (witness) and the end of suffering. Nothing to fear in this. The end result is natural. The drama we create about it is not natural. Better to just practice and go out and live. Be sure to self-pace practices as needed, which you are doing. Practices are not all or nothing. They can be calibrated to benefit any situation.
The realities of cause and effect in practices cannot be suspended after-the-fact by UG Krishnamurti, or anyone.
quote:
What I hear is that those who really do meditate end up with serious mental problems and it seems to me that someone who is considered insane would be functioning on another level which has similar consequences to the splitting of awareness from the body (the body goes on functioning without awareness).
I have heard that too, but there is no clear evidence of it, especially not around here. There is evidence of people over-doing practices sometimes and going through difficulties as a result, but we have that well-covered in AYP with self-pacing guidelines and support.
Yoga is not a splitting. It is a joining, which is the most sane thing in the world. Before that we are split in the drama of life -- duality. With deep meditation we are on our way to union -- non-duality, which (paradoxically) is an endless outpouring of divine love.
The guru is in you.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 11:57:22 AM
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Hi Karl, Correct meditation is supreme sanity. Instability and mental problems arises from entertaining unhealthy mental states. UGK exhibited great excitability. That contributed to his charisma, but it detracted from his message.
Adamant |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 12:12:11 PM
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Karl,
I wonder if you may be running into the same thing as me, a type of self sabotage.
I have had this problem all my life and am only recently beginning to recognize when and how i do it.
In me, what happens is I practice something with zeal, then when I begin to make progress, the excitement goes away, and the practices take on an image of something old, tattered, boring and uninteresting. I feel like I am seeing the practice in a "truer" light than before, and want to move on to something new. I think of myself as sort of an adventurer, embarking on new undiscovered horizons.
So I am beginning to learn to discipline myself to stick with practices and change the image of them in my mind. I think it's part of self inquiry, but it was a habitual pattern with me that
I was not conscious I was following. I just thought I easily tired of things and it was no big deal.
Ironically I have not had this problem with yoga practices because there was never any goal to be sabotaged.
Sometimes yoga can lead you through a period of instability because it unravels unhealthy things you were leaning on. When you remove a dependency you feel unstable for a while just like quitting an addiction. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 1:57:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
While that is the gradual death of identified awareness (not the body), it is the birth of liberation -- the dawn of abiding inner silence (witness) and the end of suffering.
Yogani, can you know this for certain ?
There is a 'thought' of unidentified awareness and there is the reality of it. Where I am now seems to be on the edge of this, there is still duality and that's the part that wants me to stop.
Hell, this sounds like I am some insane person with multiple personalities  and it's not like that at all. I'm certainly not sat in a dark room with the curtains drawn I'm very engaged with life, just so you know and am quite happy with the way I am functioning including this very new calm. It's strange, new and unexpected a bit like being reborn.
However there is a 'me' or 'I' attached to this, it contains the essential elements of that which consitutes who I am, even if it's all an illusion. I am very happy with who I am, but as someone who likes to explore and take some qualified risks there is a certain seductive quality about following this to conclusion.
At some stage that bit of I that remains will cease to exist when my body dies. Beyond that I can't know. I can read that it is very similar to a state of pure awareness, or a state similar to deep sleep but it is a state that is impossible to witness because it is 'no state'.
The mind and body are built for survival. Anything that enhances that survival be it good health or mental calm is naturally welcomed. Anything that resembles pure awareness or 'no' state contains the element of none existence and therefore is not survivable.
I think I was over intellectualizing this at one point a few months ago. Now it seems more of an 'off' or 'on' thing. My descriptions seem a bit much for something that is a struggle to verbalise, but there again I do tend to talk the hind leg off a donkey, I can also be very dramatic and that's my nature.
So, if you were offered the choice of the unidentified awareness of pure oblivion or to carry on for a few years with an improved inner calm, great friends and a full life which one would you choose? or does that over simplify the choice available ?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 2:01:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Karl,
I wonder if you may be running into the same thing as me, a type of self sabotage.
I have had this problem all my life and am only recently beginning to recognize when and how i do it.
In me, what happens is I practice something with zeal, then when I begin to make progress, the excitement goes away, and the practices take on an image of something old, tattered, boring and uninteresting.
I don't think so. I certainly don't see the practises as that, up to a point they were just routine, however the effects (if that is what caused my current situation) are far from old and tattered. It's quite the opposite. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2010 : 12:35:45 AM
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Good. I wasn't talking about the effects though, but a mental image of my endeavors that stops me from continuing on a path; a false image.
I would have an ambition that is very attractive to me, and I am doing quite well at it, and would get that mental image that would make me lose interest.
But apparently not what you are doing. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 07 2010 12:42:11 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2010 : 05:22:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Good. I wasn't talking about the effects though, but a mental image of my endeavors that stops me from continuing on a path; a false image.
I would have an ambition that is very attractive to me, and I am doing quite well at it, and would get that mental image that would make me lose interest.
But apparently not what you are doing.
No, I don't think so, although the process might be exactly the same.
It's interesting what you say because it's obvious I have a mental image of how it is. It's not real even if it seems it, which makes me wonder is it just simply my mind trying to find a way of stopping things, which is exactly like your self sabotage, but with a different story.
I can only give into the mind at this point and self pace as I have found trying to fight with myself to be all out war. This thing is just a huge hall of mirrors and illusions
So, you might very well be right. My mind simply latched on to UG like a drowning man latches onto a piece of flotsam.
Dear Yogani has anyone gone completely crazy doing this stuff ??? Where the hell is the door ? |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2010 : 09:32:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Dear Yogani has anyone gone completely crazy doing this stuff ??? Where the hell is the door ?
Hi Karl:
Ask around and I think you will find many here coming to grips with their spiritual destiny, which is a letting go. For most it is a gradual process.
Is any of this true? It doesn't matter what I think. It is suggested to check out the landscape of the community, study the AYP writings, and keep up a balanced (self-paced) routine of daily practice and activity. Then you will find out for yourself. It is not about thinking. It is about doing.
The guru is in you.
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2010 : 12:49:20 PM
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Hi Karl,
Oh dear...I didn't know this would become so confusing to you, neither that you would take anything UG said soo seriously! I believe you should not take literally or too seriously what any teacher (or non-teacher for that matter) says. Just take what you think is useful from what they offer and carry on on your own terms!
He might have said meditation leads to insanity in one interview and might have said exactly teh opposite in another! :) It does not matter to be honest. Find your own truth. I think you are doing that in fact, turning here and there and checking on on yourself if that makes sense to you. I think this is alright. Trust yourself, don't believe blindly what anybody else says, no matter how enlightened. This is my view anyway. The guru is really inside yourself!
(Sorry if this makes no sense at this point, I haven't read the whole thread) |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Mar 08 2010 06:43:40 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 09:24:48 AM
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I decided to stop the meditation for a couple of days and I feel far more balanced, still feel this inner calm and total lack of fear which is great but now everything is more grounded.
Maybe just needed to self pace. I haven't altered my routine in a almost 2 years so didn't think that was over doing it.
However, I deliberately didn't mention the 'event' in my opening post, but I wonder if this was such a massive opening that I needed to just slow things down?
The experience was waking up in the middle of the night with my stomach really knotted up. It felt like frustration, anger and fear all balled together, there were no thoughts to go with this. Tried going back to sleep but the anger and frustration kept building, it was really weird and a bit like being ill, more physical than anything else.
I lay on my back for a while and for some reason decided to go with the emotion and just let it take me where it would, this seemed like surrender and was quite frightening as an energy seemed to then go from my stomach and inhabit every bit of my body and it felt like drowning (I have read of energies and TBH I have always listened with impartiallity but ultimately though they were just figments of imagination). The energy brought pictures and images from different points and times in my life, right back to being a small child and it let me see what was real about each event from an adult perspective.
After the final image the cinema in my head switched off and with it went the internal net of energy and the knotted stomach. It was very intense and exhausting. Since thattime all fear has vanished and so has the emotion around some recent experiences where I had felt particularly angry about. These have not returned. It had left me feeling very floaty and slightly surreal. For the last week or so and I have to say my meditations have been less relaxed and I just wanted to stop and get busy with other things.
That was when I encountered UG..........make of that what you will, but maybe it was the Guru I needed to quit meditating for a while and self pace.
We had friends around on Saturday and they both said I looked amazing, as if every care and line had vanished from my face and that I looked more like a small child (which fitted the experience very well). They both wanted to know what I had done to get that way as they wanted some of it.
Anyway, I have not started meditating again, but will go back to it when it feels right. |
Edited by - karl on Mar 08 2010 09:43:18 AM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 1:08:50 PM
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quote:
That was when I encountered UG..........make of that what you will, but maybe it was the Guru I needed to quit meditating for a while and self pace.
Yes, this could be it. I had similar experiences when I encountered somethign that made perfect sense at the time and thus helped me. I guess nothing comes to us by chance... |
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richy
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2010 : 8:07:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Came across UG as opposed to J.
Anyone else listened to him or read his words ?
If so, how did you relate ?
UG was a most amazing guy, i wonder if anyone actually understood
what he was saying? Osho insulted him and that was pretty sad.
I have read some of UGs books and watched many of his videos
and many people who met him said they felt that there was
an electric charge in the energy around him.
He probably was the only really honest "GURU" ever to live as
he was not scared to show his true self along with his ever present anger. |
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UG Krishnamurti ?
