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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 23 2010 : 01:48:21 AM
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quote:
[quote]Originally posted by insideout
we all want to move toward joy and away from suffering.
I have lately become very interested in St. Theresa of Avila (1515 - 1582). She is the only catholic saint who apparently practiced some form of yoga practices (my deduction). She clearly experienced ecstatic bliss and had intense kundalini experiences, even levitating. Accused, of course, of dealing with the Devil at some point but triumphed in the end and cannonized as a saint. Interestingly, she preached suffering, practiced self-flagellation, known to have said "Lord, either let me suffer or let me die"
So she obviously reached her ecstatic heights through suffering.
I never understood the drive /passion (bhakti?) behind self-flagellation before. Strangely, with the intensity of bhakti, intense longing I now sometimes feel, I think I get it !
Don't worry  I'm not about to start self-flagellation
But what do you make of all this? Suffering as a path to the divine? |
Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 23 2010 01:51:48 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2010 : 01:51:48 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2010 : 02:17:36 AM
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Self flagellation is a common sight in India. Very often, you will find a group of people, carrying an idol of a deity in a "palanquin", in procession along the streets, especially of temple towns, but also in big cities like Mumbai and Chennai, led by one or two men/women who repeatedly whip themselves "into a trance".
Krish |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2010 : 03:27:57 AM
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quote:
I have lately become very interested in St. Theresa of Avila (1515 - 1582). She is the only catholic saint who apparently practiced some form of yoga practices (my deduction). She clearly experienced ecstatic bliss and had intense kundalini experiences, even levitating. Accused, of course, of dealing with the Devil at some point but triumphed in the end and cannonized as a saint. Interestingly, she preached suffering, practiced self-flagellation, known to have said "Lord, either let me suffer or let me die"
So she obviously reached her ecstatic heights through suffering.
I never understood the drive /passion (bhakti?) behind self-flagellation before. Strangely, with the intensity of bhakti, intense longing I now sometimes feel, I think I get it !
Don't worry I'm not about to start self-flagellation
But what do you make of all this? Suffering as a path to the divine?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She only followed the path of bhakti and karma yoga.No yogic tools like the ones we use here (ok,maybe some "catholic" exercices could be simmilar)...and probably there was a lack of cultivation of inner silence in her practices,wich is basic for a more fast journey....she didnt knew ayp.I would like to catch a time machine and give her dm book.
St.Theresa built by her self a strong power of will and surrender to God trought many years of serious self commitment.She had many ups and downs along her path.
I have no information that she used self-flagelation or was able to levitate (st.john of the cross yes,he was seen doing it a couple of times).
I agree that the experiences (visions,states...) she had was higher experiences very simmilar to yogic experiences (she was seen sorrounded by a bubble of white light,divine raptures,visions...).
Its true that she had to deal with many sufferings,but that was the path she was choosen to follow by God (and her free will).For example she describe many experiences with the devil (she saw his face many times while praying,and was physically injured by him several times at night)...She describe that the higher she got,the more angry the devils (yes,she had to deal with many diffrent ones) got against her self...lower beings/inner obstructions.
The sufferings that she had to deal with was nothing but her karma (that was our karma also...).And she decided to follow a path of lot of service,surrender of ego and purification trought bhakti and karma yoga.
She was a hero,cz she had to fight against many difficulties,including her own ego and very much important catholic egos with much power in that years (her dream was to create a new catholic order (Las carmelitas descalzas),and she got it).
Not easy task.
Her auto-biography is amazing,it is full of bhakti and was one of the first spiritual books that i read with 16 years old.It was one of the few catholic things that i was not forced or induced to read/to do by fear.I enjoyed it very much.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=5397
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Edited by - miguel on Feb 23 2010 07:12:52 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2010 : 04:03:42 AM
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| I agree she must have been an amazing woman. I am trying to get the book she wrote called The Interior Castle. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2010 : 09:03:53 AM
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Yes,im reading it again.Its really amazing to see how this autobiography,which was wrote many centuries ago in a very strict christian environment is full of yogic experiences.
From an outside point of view you can see his life was full of guilt,surrender to what others wanted from her...(at least early years).But in the middle of all this normal old way of living at that time of the history,God/inner guru start to talk her with many beautiful experiences.
Now im reading a part called "some of the gifts the Lord gave me".She describes how as a result of her contemplation and prayer she begin to have some short experiences of "that".And she describes it very well,very simmilar than s.john of the cross descriptions.
She says that the experience of that for at least short time are enough for justify all the sufferings that we have in life...due to the blissfull state that it produces.
She says that the understanding is "suspended",like if it ran away from that inner eternal presence.
She was blessed with many spontaneous high experiences as a result of her exercices and surrender.
Im enjoying...and the inner casttle is very famous at ayp,i think was disscussed here before.
It seems that this treath has activated something inside... |
Edited by - miguel on Feb 24 2010 09:07:23 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2010 : 09:55:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Im enjoying...and the inner casttle is very famous at ayp,i think was disscussed here before.
Oh - I did not know that. I got to thinking of her when trying to find someone accepted by the catholic church who would have had experiences similar to what we experience in AYP; someone I could tell my sisters about, so that they understand me and my new path a little better. And I remembered Sainte Theresa. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2010 : 10:37:12 AM
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Hey,
The autobiography is good for that.After all,there you will find her own words and experiences.
Very beautiful yesterday while reading a part in which she was in prayer/contemplation and suddenly she felt a "huge shake in her soul" that frightened her very much and then she heard this clear words coming from inside: "from now you will stop dealing with humans,from now you will deal with angels".This revelation came to her after some years of spiritual surrender.The way she describes this is very beautiful.The revelation came after many deceptions with mundane life and some spiritual people around her that tryed to confuse her about the meaning of her path and experiences (they said to her that the divine experiences came from the devil when she wanted a proof or confirmation that what was happening to her was divine in nature).After this revelation she began to deal with very much higher souls form christian environment (many sincere experienced monks dedicated to prayer in convents...very common in that time,including her friend st john of the cross...).She recieved very much advice and light from them.
Sometimes she talks about her self in third person,and considere her self like a miserable person,despite of her obvious higher development.The humility sometimes is amazing.She considred her self (her ego) like a miserable one along all her life,cz she was very aware of all her imperfections (human nature/we are limited by nature) inside her. |
Edited by - miguel on Feb 25 2010 10:49:20 AM |
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Mary
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2010 : 3:17:43 PM
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Hello!
I'm new to the forum and saw your post. Last summer I became incredibly inspired by St. Teresa of Avila, reading both her autobiography and The Interior Castle. Raised catholic, I abandoned the church when I was 18 and began re-exploring it in the last year or so after many years of yoga and meditation practice. I have been pleasantly surprised to see many similarities between the experiences of the catholic mystic saints and yogi saints. Their goals are the same even if their methods seem different. In essence, though, I don't think they are very different. Devotion/bhakti is a primary practice. Teresa's description of prayer immediately struck me as a meditative experience.
You also mentioned self-flagelation, of which I know very little, except to say that yogis also practice tapas/austerities. The purpose of any tapas practice is to develop a higher tolerance for discomfort. I've been taught that a yogi strives to remain connected to Spirit in all situations, especially uncomfortable ones. So tapas is a controlled practice that builds tolerance so that it takes more to knock you out of your center of spirit. It's not necessary to go to extremes in practicing tapas...cold showers or a simple diet are common tapas.
I've also been wondering about the suffering aspect of the Christian awakening experience and how to understand it with respect to yoga. In life there's a great deal of suffering and the yogic path seeks to eliminate all unnecessary suffering while teaching practitioners how to manage through inescapable suffering (like illness). Many of the catholic saints suffered terribly...all the martyrs, St Francis, Therese of Lisieux, to name a few. For them, suffering seemed to be an opportunity to prove their devotion. Or it was a way to take suffering away from others, akin to the yogi guru's ability to burn up the bad karma of his disciples. Both yoga and christian doctrine teach to accept suffering and move through it rather than run or hide from it. I don't think either teach to seek it, though.
Are you still reading Teresa or have you found any additional inspiration? |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2010 : 03:37:29 AM
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Karmic obstructions block our experience of the Infinite. Suffering clears away some of the heaviest karmic obstuctions. We made others suffer before so now we have to suffer also. Inclusion of suffering into spiritual practice is just hastening what's coming sooner or later anyway. Better sooner than later?
Self-flagellation is not necessary though. The body is a temple, it should not be harmed but developed. The Lotus posture, or any of the other sacred meditative postures can provide all the suffering one may require, if we stay in it long enough.. |
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Jivaakabhasana_Yogi
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2010 : 09:58:42 AM
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Aauumm Aym Hriim Kliim Chamundayai Vicce...Svaha...
Aauumm
All Desire, All activity, All wisdom, That Which devours passion, anger and hatred, grant me this conscious realization...I surrender...
I just wish to mention, for the benefit of those who think that Theresa "followed no yogic excersizes" to read the Interior Castle. It is very clear upon reading that her experience was rife with yogic phenomenon and "technology." One has to look past the literal reading and understand what she is expressing. She very clearly outlines within the context of bhakti, the ascent of the Kundalini into the Sahasra and its descent and fullness and manifestation in/as the heart.
As for suffering as a way to enlightenment, while I am sure it is a valid path, I spose it weren't for this one, otherwise I should have become enlightened over a million lifetimes ago...who has not undergone profound suffering in life? Hmm? I sure know I had...
Theresa, laughingly, was known to levitate during prayer while standing in the choir (stalls designed for monks/nuns to stand for long periods), so much so that the sisters often had to hold her down, and even tied a rope 'round her waste with a rock tied to it...(true story.) LOL Akasha, the Lightness of Air....
Regards,
J_Y |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2010 : 8:47:10 PM
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Hi SeySorciere & All,
Very interesting thread!
FYI to all, here's a link to a free an online edition of Interior Castle By St. Teresa of Avila.
(I haven't read it, but well may. )
I did just read Mysticism by Evelyn Underhill, and highly recommend it, for anyone interested in Christian mysticism, and Christian contemplative traditions (the paths that I like to call "yogic Christianity" ... which, in essence, and for the most part, in form, these paths certainly are. )
This book was written in 1911, so the language is a bit archaic, but Evelyn Underhill was a highly-conscious mystic herself, and she presents the overall structure of mysticism, and its reality, in a way that is clear, logical and precise.
Ultimately, Christian mysticism is identical to Eastern yogic/tantric/advaitic paths, in purpose; it is about one thing only: realization of our inherently fulfilled consciousness, our true nature, and {therefore & thereby} liberation in this life -- freedom from all suffering, and living from-in-as that freedom.
Christian mysticism tends to be much more dualistic in form and symbolism, but as with dualistic paths in other religions, for those who practice with complete sincerity and dedication, the result (liberation/enlightenment) is the same.
Also: Mysticism (the book) is filled with interesting and pertinent anecdotes about the great Catholic/Christian saints, including St. Teresa of Avila, including many direct quotes from their writings.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- If the online version of Mysticism seems cumbersome (to read, online), a new edition, called
Practical Mysticism, is available fairly inexpensively, online.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 21 2010 8:57:20 PM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2010 : 02:13:28 AM
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| Cool ! Thanks Kirtanman. Books I require are non-existent here on my island in the sun and I always have to wait a long while before someone (or myself)coming from some city can get me the ones I want. So free material is always welcomed. |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 5:38:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jivaakabhasana_Yogi
I just wish to mention, for the benefit of those who think that Theresa "followed no yogic excersizes" to read the Interior Castle. It is very clear upon reading that her experience was rife with yogic phenomenon and "technology."
Haven't looked at her works in years, but I think you are correct. There was mention of various contemplative practices that form part of the western mystical tradition. She was also friends with St. John of The Cross (?), who also followed these 'technologies'. The works are filled with many ideas about Union with the husband, Jesus.
I think much of what occurred was just pure sexual sublimation. Nothing wrong with that. Wasn't there a famous statue of her in rapture but looking very much like an orgasm? Would seem to support the self-flagellation too, since it releases endorphins and S&M is part of what some psychologist call normal sexual practice.
Not to diminish her spiritual side, just being practical if coarse.
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Edited by - Jo-self on Apr 26 2010 6:10:15 PM |
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St. Theresa of Avila
