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The unborn, unconditioned, undying, uncreated is not deep into the unknown. The unknown to be achieved through "deep meditation" silence is born, conditioned, dying, created. What you describe as the end of suffering, I describe as the root of suffering. It is not the Dhamma. All roads don't lead to Vedant.

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As for the Buddha's proposal, I'll let it go when it's disproven.

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Originally posted by Christi
The unborn, unconditioned, undying, uncreated is the Base.

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When this is known there is no longer any confusion about terms like That from Vedanta, or Thatgoneone (Tathagata) from the Buddhist tradition. Any previous conception that may have been held in the mind that these are opposing concepts, falls away. It dissolves, never to arrise again.

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This is why I say go deep into the unknown and you will come to know the truth about the issues that you have brought up here. I don't think that looking to the history books will provide many satisfactory answers for you. As Jesus said: "Seek first the kingdom of heaven within, and all else will be added unto you".

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Now is the only time you can ever let go.

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The what? "Base to Christi... come in, Christi..." Whatever "the Base" is, you can rest assured that it is a complete delusion. The truth is there is no ultimate reality; there's no ground of being. Buddhist meditation requires giving up that quest. Liberation can only happen when one lets go of any holding of any base, ground or so-called ultimate.

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You're confusion is that you have no idea how to go about Buddhist meditation, because you are grasping at your Vedant view.

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Is "the Base" the known unknown that you know by going into the unknown? You're just inventing your own jargon. You're confusion is that you have no idea how to go about Buddhist meditation, because you are grasping at your Vedant view.

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Buddhist meditation is simply resting in the present moment without volitional intent; this is what letting go means, and it doesn't mean going into a blind state of unconscious unknowing.

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Liberation comes from recognizing whether there are hidden essences, ultimate realities or ultimate experiences doesn't matter. Freedom's nature arises because one gives up the search for ultimate anything.

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The manifest universe emanates from the Base firstly in the form of a highly refined spiritual light, and gradually condensing into what we call physical reality.

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If I were you, I would give up all ideas about there being any ultimate reality, or no ultimate reality. After all, how could you possibly know? Investigate, and find out the truth for yourself if you are interested.

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In the language of Vedanta the sum total of the Base plus all Dhammas (manifestation) is called Brahman (Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma). This is the realization that the 10,000 things are not separate from the Base and the Base is not separate from the 10,000 things (dhammas).

We are That. Tat Twam Asi. This realization is Dzogchen.

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You must have missed the instruction that the Gzhi is nonexistent.

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The manifest universe emanates from the Base firstly in the form of a highly refined spiritual light, and gradually condensing into what we call physical reality.
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This is Vedant, and this is why I've said that one knows Vedant by this signature view. If one calls oneself a Dzogchenpa, but holds this view, one is a Vedantin Dzogchenpa. A Buddhist Dzogchenpa will not believe it.

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This conjecture is not the Dhamma or the Great Perfection. And it shows that the Vedant view is compound.

The Great Perfection is this:

There's nothing.

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P.S. One needs a refined understanding and real insight into the process of change and the process of interdependent origination to understand the dhamma of "nothing exists" and how it sets one free.

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Originally posted by Christi
No instruction is needed here regarding this matter. I am speaking from direct experience. When one realizes the base, one knows if it is existent or non-existent. Until then, these matters are mere speculation.

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Again, it is neither Vedanta, or Buddha Dhamma, or Dzogchen. It is simply the way things are, and is realized through direct experience by one who goes deeply into inner silence. Whatever one's spiritual path, truth remains the same. As I said above, the path is transcended upon awakening.

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If nothing exists, how are you reading these words?

Christi

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Truth is only change. All change is the change of some thing: change presupposes some thing that changes. And it presupposes that, while changing, this thing must remain the same. But if it remains the same, then it doesn't change. Therefore, because everything does change, no thing exists. All phenomena must be compounded, otherwise change would be impossible. Even the present moment is compounded, and therefore does not exist: A water bubble, a desert mirage, an oil lamp, a river. Apart from this truth, there is no further level of ultimate truth. All "things" are mere nominal designations, and these words are the epitome of nominal.

To answer your question: The words you wrote are not the words I'm reading. If our ideas are being fully communicated is just a matter of mutual supposition, convention and conjecture, which we, through follow-up communication, seek to test. There is no word, or words, just a process of communication, a mere facility. There is no such thing as perfect knowledge or ultimate knowledge, never was, never will be.

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P.S. The witness changes always with what it witnessed. If you witness the witness you will say it is like that of the eye and the field of sight, but you do not really see the eye. To say you witness some presence or essence is not witnessing the witness; it's witnessing a presence, one you also do not really see. "I am" is really a limitation.

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Nothing never changes. You go deep into meditation; you come out. Impermanence. What never changes? I give up.

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Originally posted by Christi

That's right, the witness arises with the object of perception and ceases with the object. It is part of the field of the conditioned. Go deeply into the witness, and you will come to that which never changes.

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Don't give up so easily.

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You have only just begun.

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Realization is not an intellectual riddle to be answered on the level of the mind. If it was then spiritual practices would not be needed.

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Persevere.

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Monks, that sphere should be realized where the eye (vision) stops and the perception (mental noting) of form fades. That sphere is to be realized where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That sphere should be realized.

— SN XXXV.116

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The Buddha: There is the case, Ananda, where he would be percipient of this: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all mental processes; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbana.'

— AN X.6

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Ananda: But what were you percipient of at that time?

Sariputta: 'The stopping of becoming — nibbana — the stopping of becoming — nibbana': One perception arose in me as another perception stopped. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame disappears, even so, 'The stopping of becoming — nibbana — the stopping of becoming — nibbana': One perception arose in me as another one stopped. I was percipient of the stopping of becoming — nibbana.

— AN X.7

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'The concentration whereby — neither pressed down nor forced back, nor with mental processes kept blocked or suppressed — still as a result of release, contented as a result of stillness, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated: This concentration is said by the Master to be the fruit of what?'

I said to her, '...This concentration is said by the Master to be the fruit of gnosis (the knowledge of Awakening).' Having this sort of perception, friend, one is not sensitive to that sphere.

— AN IX.37

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There is the case, Ananda, where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perceptions, mental processes, & consciousness as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, a void, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines it to the quality of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all mental processes; the relinquishment of all mental acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; Unbinding.'

Having attained this point, he reaches the ending of the mental effluents. Or, if not, then — through passion & delight for this very phenomenon [the discernment inclining to deathlessness] and from the total ending of the first five of the Fetters*— he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. (Similarly with the other levels of jhana.)

— MN 64

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Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the signless concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its signless concentration of awareness.

He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness... that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is void... (etc.)'

Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the signless concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its signless concentration of awareness.

He discerns that 'This signless concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to stopping.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is void of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-voidness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as void of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into voidness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure —

superior & unsurpassed.

— MN 121

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Then Ven. Assaji gave this exposition of Dhamma to Sariputta the Wanderer:

'Whatever phenomena arise from a cause:
Their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata
the Great Contemplative.'

Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this exposition of Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

— Mv 1.23.5

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P.S. The method of nibbana is close to what you call going deep into "the witness," except there are no concepts of coming or going, of deep or of the witness.

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Monks, that sphere should be realized where the eye (vision) stops and the perception (mental noting) of form fades. That sphere is to be realized where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That sphere should be realized.

— SN XXXV.116

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What intellectual riddle? You are simply confused.

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The cure for your confusion is to release this subtle attachment you are holding about having an essence of Thatness. At least from the Buddhist standpoint, "That" is wrong view.

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When our nervous system is systematically
cultivated in ways that bring deep purification and
opening, then we will be able to directly perceive the
reality of Self and the true nature of the world, and
describe it first-hand. The relevance of our own
experience will surpass the philosophies that have
informed us in the past, and we will know the truth.

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Philosophy is therefore a stepping stone to the
greatest knowledge, which is direct knowledge of our
Self.

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So, while yoga and self-inquiry are often viewed as
a going beyond, never to return, it is not so. We can
never leave what is here and now, for it is what we are
in our own Self.

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With deep meditation, the rise of the
witness, and self-inquiry, we are able to bootstrap our
way to the eternal infinite, the shining void that we
come to know as our Self.

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It takes a flexible integration of
methods to penetrate the veil of ideas, emotions and
perceived materiality in front of us, to realize the
eternal luminous reality underlying it all, which is our
true Self.

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Once we have cultivated the witness in this
manner, we have also developed the key ability
necessary for self-inquiry, which is being able to allow
thoughts and perceptions to pass by in favor of stillness.
We don’t have to cling to them anymore, or the
associated inner dramas we have created in the past, for
we have found our sense of self, our home, in
something more pleasing, more lasting, and more
present. Pure consciousness – our own Self.

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Originally posted by emc

Hrm... I'm sorry to interrupt this deep conversation, but... are you enjoying looking yourselves in the mirror?

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we are able to bootstrap our
way to the eternal infinite, the shining void that we
come to know as our Self.

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What you fail to recognize is that I'm talking about method, not some conjecture about "what we are."

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This (like all your other quotes) is a view. This one's about time (eternal), space (infinite), and something called a "shining void" to which we attach a sense of "self." Whether there is eternal time or infinite space is just a conjecture.

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Whereas, what you are calling "the base" is just observed impermanence. See the difference?

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I just wanted to point out, that the AYP and other Vedant practices are not the same as the Buddha's method. The Buddha's method has a significant difference based on objective impartiality toward phenomena.

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Originally posted by alwayson2

I think its important to realize that in Dzogchen, there are nirvanic and samsaric elements, and you must distinguish between the two. That is the unique feature of Dzogchen.

Rigpa is nirvanic, while sems in samsaric

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Originally posted by adamantclearlight

P.S. Did you know, one can achieve nibbana from the first jhana? Deep meditation is not necessary. Nibbana can be realized walking around. In nibbana, all realizations are rendered empty and relative. Any "realization" that occurs outside of the process of cessation is rendered illusory; any dichotomy between the thinking mind and an inner essence is rendered unimportant. All the phenomena fade into the objective clear light of mind, so long as one rests with no attachment and no fixed point of reference. A fixed point of reference to be discarded would be one who realizes or that which is realized. As soon as the realization is pointed out as "That," consciousness has a foothold and the round of birth is maintained. So the method is vastly important, where the claim on a realization an infinitely vast obstacle. What one witnesses is simply the phenomena fade, including any sense at all, like I AM or nonduality. There's no subjective realization or experience to speak of, there is only freedom from suffering. Freedom cannot be pointed to, described or even sensed; total freedom transcends All.

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