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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 11:14:23 AM
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Taking no delight in opinions, neither accepting nor rejecting, indifferent to feeling, comprehending perception, Thatgoneone abandons craving, observes cessation and finding perfect rest on no support. Focused mindfully on nothingness, perplexity ceases as Thatgoneone sees the world is empty, not mine. Divorcing conjectures, without conceit, gone out, Thatgoneone cannot be reckoned or defined and bewilders the Lord of Death, because Thatgoneone doesn’t care about being, becoming or the afterlife.
Not relishing feeling, inside or out: One living mindful in this way brings consciousness to a halt.
Gone gone, gone beyond, gone totally beyond, awake, okay
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 30 2010 11:34:28 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 11:40:01 AM
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| you are becoming more confusing every day. What happened to Flight of the Garuda? |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 12:42:04 PM
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How does that make you feel? LOL. Just kiddin'. I'm moving on swiftly...
There is a perennial dialogue that's gone on between That and Thatgoneone. Those who proclaim, "I am That," reach the cessation of perception. Thatgoneone proclaims perceiving cessation. This is the precise dialogue between the Vedantins and the Buddha. The difference may appear subtle, but it's why the Buddha left his Vedantin teachers, Alara Kalama and Ramaputta. The former is the mind becoming "like a brick" or a "log of wood"; the latter is mindful of nothing, and this awareness is freed. The former reaches beyond this and conjectures about the universe, its origins and makes cosmological connections; the latter gives up on that as the useless cause of bondage.
What I've observed is that this debate still wins devotees. Sometimes one claims oneself a Vedantin, a yogi and falls on the side of the Buddha. Others who proclaim themselves Buddhist fall on the side of Vedanta. To identify which practice one is devoted, one must look to the precise difference in these two fruits, cessation of perception and perceiving cessation. They are diametrically opposed.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 30 2010 1:23:49 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 1:22:33 PM
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| except vedanta did not exist at that time |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 1:32:54 PM
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The early Upanishadic views did, so we can call it Vedanta. There are texts that pre-date the Buddha and reflect the methods of his teachers who realized the Self to the level of either nothingness or neither perception nor non-perception.
Adamant |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 2:23:56 PM
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| but did Buddhas teachers follow the upanishads |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 3:02:51 PM
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They must at least have been part of the oral tradition of what became the Upanishads, specifically with regard to the two yogic fruits of nothingness and neither perception nor non-perception. See the Mandukya, Chandogya and Brhadaranyaka Upanishad. The descriptions of the Self correspond precisely to Alara's and Ramaputta's. Thus, there is clear evidence of an oral transmission lineage about the methods resulting in these attainments, which the Bodhisatta found unsatisfactory and not the final moksha from samsara. See also "The Origin of Buddhist Meditation" by Alexander Wynne.
My point is that this precise methods and fruits are still being taught today. See Ed Muzika's Advaita instructions to Rajiv in "Autobiography of a Jnani." [link]http://itisnotreal.com/Autobiograph...%20Jnani.pdf[/link]. Ed's instructions are just like Ramaputta.
There is a 2,600 year old dialogue between followers of the Veda lineage gurus and the Buddha, going on exactly like that right now. A lot of words have been devoted to unifying these different approaches, but they don't amount to anything.
It appears the Vedic approach stems from a cosmological conjecture about the elements evolving from the unmanifest. Whereas, the Buddha starts from a slate of no conjecture. Hence, the yogic path of returning or becoming That, and the dharmic path of not.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 30 2010 3:15:13 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 4:13:34 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
There is a perennial dialogue that's gone on between That and Thatgoneone. Those who proclaim, "I am That," reach the cessation of perception. Thatgoneone proclaims perceiving cessation. This is the precise dialogue between the Vedantins and the Buddha. The difference may appear subtle, but it's why the Buddha left his Vedantin teachers, Alara Kalama and Ramaputta. The former is the mind becoming "like a brick" or a "log of wood"; the latter is mindful of nothing, and this awareness is freed. The former reaches beyond this and conjectures about the universe, its origins and makes cosmological connections; the latter gives up on that as the useless cause of bondage.
What I've observed is that this debate still wins devotees. Sometimes one claims oneself a Vedantin, a yogi and falls on the side of the Buddha. Others who proclaim themselves Buddhist fall on the side of Vedanta. To identify which practice one is devoted, one must look to the precise difference in these two fruits, cessation of perception and perceiving cessation. They are diametrically opposed.
Taking one side, or another, heaven and earth are set infinitely apart. Taking no sides, one remains forever free... |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 9:11:01 PM
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Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"
Canki Sutta - "The statement of the brahmans turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmans turn out to be groundless?"
Mettagu-manava-puccha "[The Lord:] "Whatever you clearly comprehend, Mettagu, above, below, across and in between, get rid of delight in it. Rid yourself of habitual attitudes3 and (life affirming) consciousness.4 Do not continue in existence. Living thus, mindful and vigilant, a bhikkhu who has forsaken selfish attachments may, by understanding, abandon suffering, birth and old age, sorrow and grief, even here in this life.""
Quotes notwithstanding, I'm just pointing out that the Buddha divided heaven and earth.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 31 2010 5:34:47 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 6:30:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"
Canki Sutta - "The statement of the brahmans turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmans turn out to be groundless?"
Mettagu-manava-puccha "[The Lord:] "Whatever you clearly comprehend, Mettagu, above, below, across and in between, get rid of delight in it. Rid yourself of habitual attitudes3 and (life affirming) consciousness.4 Do not continue in existence. Living thus, mindful and vigilant, a bhikkhu who has forsaken selfish attachments may, by understanding, abandon suffering, birth and old age, sorrow and grief, even here in this life.""
Quotes notwithstanding, I'm just pointing out that the Buddha divided heaven and earth.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
You are right, he did.
And we can do better.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 7:23:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"
Canki Sutta - "The statement of the brahmans turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmans turn out to be groundless?"
Mettagu-manava-puccha "[The Lord:] "Whatever you clearly comprehend, Mettagu, above, below, across and in between, get rid of delight in it. Rid yourself of habitual attitudes3 and (life affirming) consciousness.4 Do not continue in existence. Living thus, mindful and vigilant, a bhikkhu who has forsaken selfish attachments may, by understanding, abandon suffering, birth and old age, sorrow and grief, even here in this life.""
Quotes notwithstanding, I'm just pointing out that the Buddha divided heaven and earth.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
You are right, he did.
And we can do better.
Christi
Good luck with that.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 8:23:20 PM
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In all seriousness, it's not possible.
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 03:48:51 AM
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Hi Adamant,
It is useful at a certain point, to let go of ideas about what is possible and what is not possible. In truth, we are capable of anything. Going beyond the constant divisiveness of mind is just the beginning. Then heaven and earth are one, and we are That.
Tathagatta... thus come, thus gone. When coming and going come to an end, only peace remains.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 10:28:31 AM
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Hi Christi, Divisiveness is your word. A Tathagata knows what the path is and what it isn't. If knowing true from untrue is divisive, then so be it.
"We are That" is a concept. Trying to merge "We are That" with "Thus come, thus gone, only peace remains" is cute conceptual music, but in fact doesn't saying anything useful or true.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Feb 01 2010 10:42:04 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 1:31:55 PM
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Hi Adamant,
"We are That" is only a concept until it becomes a realization. Then it is reality. It is as much reality for the Yogi as it is for the Buddha.
There are different paths, and they use different terminology to describe the same goal. In the Buddha's day there was a lot of in-fighting between different spiritual traditions, and a lot of back-biting between spiritual teachers. The Buddha was no exception in this. A lot of the in-fighting was about winning disciples, not about truth.
This kind of sectarianism served a purpose in its day, as sects acted to defend their ground and compete with other sects. These days its purpose is largely played out and is beginning to become self-defeating. When truth is about the truth of one, against the truth of another, it is no truth at all. It is simply the continued playing out of contracted consciousness.
The future movement of spirituality on the world stage will not be about a continued sectarian struggle for supremacy. It will be about the breaking down of division between people, and the rise of the awareness of our common unity. This process has already begun and is gaining momentum every day. Sectarian traditions which try to hold on to the supposed supremacy of their teachings, will become rapidly sidelined with the rising tide of awakening humanity.
The tree blossoms, the blossom falls.
Saint, Buddha, Yogi, Rishi.
Like a candle when the sun comes up.
Who remains? |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 1:41:17 PM
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quote:
"From where have there arisen quarrels, disputes, lamentation, sorrows, along with selfishness, conceit & pride, along with divisiveness? From where have they arisen? Please tell me."
"From what is dear there have arisen quarrels, disputes, lamentation, sorrows, along with selfishness, conceit & pride, along with divisiveness. Tied up with selfishness are quarrels & disputes. In the arising of disputes is divisiveness."
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 2:02:02 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Quote:
In the arising of disputes is divisiveness
That's right. And in the cessation of disputes is unity, and the ending of sorrow. This is the hallmark of a Buddha and the awakening of love.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 2:13:09 PM
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Hi Christi, The Vedanta people and all other theistic view-holders have been very skillful through the millennia to convince the world that all falls under the umbrella of "That" which is just an appellation for God. Under the guise of non-sectarianism, "we are all one" and "we are the world," is profound attachment to a so-called realization of so-called truth. And that attachment grows into rishis, mulas, popes, gurus, "I AM THAT, I AM," christs, prophets, saints and those who claim to have attained realization bringing them closer to THAT giving them authority to dictate what THAT is, or even that it is, and what is supposed to go along with it.
Gone from That.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 2:17:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Adamant,
quote:
Quote:
In the arising of disputes is divisiveness
That's right. And in the cessation of disputes is unity, and the ending of sorrow. This is the hallmark of a Buddha and the awakening of love.
Christi
Hi Christ, When Mara whispers in my ear, "I love you." I don't whisper back. The cessations of disputes is just no more talk. Unity and diversity is your problem. Love is showing the way to end confusion, not loving conceptual loving feelings.
Adamant |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 2:22:26 PM
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Hi adamant, Christi and All
Perhaps (and very likely) my POV is not desired here, but regardless I will share my perspective anyways....(typical )
"That" is just a word. "Gone from That" is just a phrase. What we truly are is beyond all words, beyond any description. Trying to put words to it, trying to debate about it, is futile from the perspective here. BE your true nature as talk is cheap and words aren't Truth. (hope that doesn't sound offensive or harsh, I don't mean it to be....sorry if this comes across wrong).
Love.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 2:32:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi adamant, Christi and All
Perhaps (and very likely) my POV is not desired here, but regardless I will share my perspective anyways....(typical)
"That" is just a word. "Gone from That" is just a phrase. What we truly are is beyond all words, beyond any description. Trying to put words to it, trying to debate about it, is futile from the perspective here. BE your true nature as talk is cheap and words aren't Truth. (hope that doesn't sound offensive or harsh, I don't mean it to be....sorry if this comes across wrong).
Love.
What we are regards Self, a lingering conjecture.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Feb 01 2010 2:38:21 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 2:43:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
What we are regards Self, a lingering conjecture.
Totally agree (not that it matters at all).
Love.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 2:58:43 PM
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| we are the clear vivid awareness of the present moment and not the thoughtstream |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 3:15:13 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Hi Christ, When Mara whispers in my ear, "I love you." I don't whisper back. The cessations of disputes is just no more talk. Unity and diversity is your problem. Love is showing the way to end confusion, not loving conceptual loving feelings.
That's right. When there is "I and "you" there is no love, and Mara is always present. Love is the ending of death and, as you say, the ending of confusion.
quote:
What we are regards Self, a lingering conjecture.
Or another way of putting it is Self regards Self and loses itself in That. Then we are Thus gone (Tathagata). This is the stage of Oneness which is the fountain from which divine love pours.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 3:22:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Adamant,
quote:
Hi Christ, When Mara whispers in my ear, "I love you." I don't whisper back. The cessations of disputes is just no more talk. Unity and diversity is your problem. Love is showing the way to end confusion, not loving conceptual loving feelings.
That's right. When there is "I and "you" there is no love, and Mara is always present. Love is the ending of death and, as you say, the ending of confusion.
quote:
What we are regards Self, a lingering conjecture.
Or another way of putting it is Self regards Self and loses itself in That. Then we are Thus gone (Tathagata). This is the stage of Oneness which is the fountain from which divine love pours.
Christi
Hi Christi, Your way of putting it is your way of putting it: back-door pantheism.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 3:25:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
we are the clear vivid awareness of the present moment and not the thoughtstream
Slides toward conjecture and identity, but close.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Feb 01 2010 3:28:47 PM |
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