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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 21 2010 : 9:06:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Tibetan Ice,
I am sorry if this sounds negative but after reading what you just wrote i feel that you do not have a rational understanding of the things you are talking about. Again, i don't mean to sound agressive or hostile in any way.
I think i could disect your words and respond to them point by point but i also think that if i did that it would be offensive to you.
Hi Gumpi :)
That seems to be your style. Each to his own. :)
Fire away!
:)
TI |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2010 : 10:24:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
You see the AYP star? that came out of left field
It's not an AYP star or a Great Perfection five lights. It's all just the nature of attaining samadhi. Again, you don't focus on these appearances. Focus is the opposite of what makes them appear. One can utilize them though. If you notice that these appearances move around and get out of center, it is feedback that the samadhi is becoming diffuse. Then, one steadies the mind and these appearances also steady. Also, the appearances start out small, then grown to the size of "shield," then grow to cosmic proportions.
Then, again, if one is operating at the level of vedana instead of avidya, one will not notice these appearances at all.
Adamant |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2010 : 10:41:34 PM
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Hi All,
A few star/bindu-related comments:
*The star is a common experience, but is not experienced by everyone.
*The experience of the star, as with any other phenomenon, is not essential.
*The Yoga-Spandakarika, one of the primary yogic texts of non-dual tantric Kashmir Shaivism lists the star (along with subtle sounds, tastes, etc.), primarily as an obstacle:
"Verse 3.10. Occult powers of the Yogi are an impediment to Realization of the Self or Spanda Principle.
Ato vindur ato nAdo rUpam asmAd ato rasah|
Pravartante'cirenaiva ksobhakatvena dehinah|| 3.10
From this (Unmesa) appear (supernormal) light, (supernormal) sound, (supernormal) form, (supernormal) taste, in a short time, to the Yogi who has not yet done away with the identification of the Self with the body, which, however, are only disturbing factor (in the full realization of the Spanda Principle).
The Yogi experiences or perceives supernormal spontaneous extrasensory feelings of light, sound, form and taste without the appropriate objects.
All these perceptions indicate the Yogi still identifies the Self with the causal, gross and the subtle bodies and has not risen above psycho-physical sphere of existence.
These extrasensory perceptions and occult powers give a temporary satisfaction and are hard to give up but are an impediment for further progress: Realization of the essential Self or the Spanda Principle."
Source: Online Edition of Yoga Spandakarika, quoting the version by Jaideva Singh (Spanda-karikas: The Divine Creative Pulsation).
Dr. Singh was a well-known pandit of Kashmir Shaivism, and a direct disciple of Swami Lakshmanjoo (the book is dedicated "with profound respects to Svami Lakshmana Joo, the doyen of Saivagama").
In the preface, Dr. Singh adds that a few corrections were made to misprints in the original edition, published by the Kashmir Series of Texts and Studies {produced from the original Sanskrit manuscripts} with "the assistance of Svami Lakshmana Joo. I am deeply indebted to him for his luminous exposition of this important text."
Point Being: the above sutra is as authoritative as it gets, from any system.
Resource: Spanda-Karikas The Divine Creative Pulsation by Jaideva Singh, p.147.
(Please Note: p. 147 is not part of the Google Books Preview, but the link above can give you a feel for the book, and its style and material; highly recommended.)
(Spanda is the true nature/movement of awareness-consciousness.)
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- This post isn't "anti-star" ... it's more "pro-keep-going past focus on the star".
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 21 2010 10:54:42 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 12:12:01 AM
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Kirtanman,
Those warnings are clearly about clairvoyant and clariaudient powers, not the star.
See my "How to perform magick with yoga" thread
The star is not a clairvoyant vision or occult power. It is the third eye bindu.
Please google the term "bindu" |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 22 2010 12:31:38 AM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 12:14:04 AM
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Hello All,
Interesting topic. I'm curious if Swami Muktananda's Blue Bindu that he talks about in Play of Consciousness is the same thing or related? I remember in the book he said it appears in front of the third eye and then eventually during meditation you enter it. I've seen it many times during my meditations, but I've never entered it like he described in the book. |
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 10:55:44 AM
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| Blue bindu is the same as The Star. Some people see the star as a white orb (like a full moon) or a blue orb/sphere. Others see it as blue with a golden brim with a white star in the center, sometimes like a sphere sometimes like a pentagonal star as in the case with Yogananda and Lahiri Mahaysaya's lineage. By passing or penetrating into that star one loses body consciousness and all that is left is the light, this is samadhi for those who concentrate on that light or star. There are countless objects of meditation, the star is one of them |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 11:56:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Kirtanman,
Those warnings are clearly about clairvoyant and clariaudient powers, not the star.
See my "How to perform magick with yoga" thread
The star is not a clairvoyant vision or occult power. It is the third eye bindu.
Please google the term "bindu"
Hi Alwayson & All,
My apologies; I ended up omitting the key part of the quote I was sharing:
“From {this} which is being practiced, there appears in a short time experience like the light of a star in the middle of the two eyebrows, which is a generic light expressive of the entire objective world, sound which is unstruck {spontaneous}, which is generic sound representing all undifferentiated words, (supernormal) form, which is a glow shining in the darkness, transcendental taste experienced on the tip of the tongue. All these appear to the yogi whose identification of the I, or of the Self, with the gross {and} subtle body, etc. has not yet dissolved. They only give him temporary satisfaction, but they are a disturbing factor, {an} obstacle in the realization of the Spanda principle.”
~Spanda-karikas by Jaideva Singh, p. 147
It is the bindu being discussed, as you can tell from the original Sanskrit:
Ato vindur ... then, the bindu (even if you don't know Sanskrit, the similarity between "bindu" and "vindur" is obvious).
And again, the point (pun happily intended) is not that the bindu/star is bad in any way, but rather, that it is not an end in and of itself.
And, Alwayson, I'm sure you understand this, too, if you consider the big picture, based on your knowledge of Buddhism:
Unenlightenment is the condition of mistaking all form for the totality of reality, and ignoring the formless, true subjectivity.
And so, sadhana, in any tradition, is the path of erasing the hyper-focus on form (whether physical objects; perceptions thought of as "other people"; conditioned ideas, and so on).
Realization is the recognition that the true self is the unconditioned awareness, utterly independent of anything going on in the realms of form, on any plane of consciousness.
From the view of Realization, it is seen that all form ... including the bindu ... arises within, and is part of Self ... the ever-full, single field of awareness that is the true self; that is our true nature.
And so, I'm just saying, as was Ksemaraja (Abhinavagupta's lead disciple, and the original author of the quote shown above), that the bindu arises in perception to those who have not yet shed identification with the physical and/or subtle bodies, as the self .... which is the primary error; this identification is the cause of re-creating unenlightenment in every moment that it happens.
Releasing this error, and experiencing the fulness of self, the field of subjective awareness without all the artificial distinctions, is enlightenment.
The bindu (as the light, or star) is (I agree) as Yogani describes it, and as Kriya Yoga (Yogananda, etc.) generally does, too.
Kashmir Shaivism accepts this as well (the star is a cross-section of the sushumna, as it appears to somewhat-experienced yogis and yoginis, who experience it).
The bigger picture, however, is that expanded perceptions .... lights, sounds, etc. .... of whatever nature .... are not an end, in and of themselves.
They are signposts along the way ... similar to sore muscles when working out: a sign that things are going well; possibly a sign of rapid progress ... but not something that undue attention should be given.
Why?
Because undue attention on any object recreates the subject who experiences it.
And so, this artificial distinction (of focus on any object, ultimately) is counterproductive, to realization.
I'm not saying that the star isn't a good sign; I agree fully within both Yogananda and Yogani ... I just *also* agree with them that realization is actually beyond any experience, no matter how deep .... and so, am making the point that it's very important to understand that no object, no matter how subtle, or yogically-respected (i.e. the star/bindu) is of ultimate importance.
I experienced the star significantly for a while, and then consistently in meditation for quite a while (a year, or more) ... but then, it started appearing less (after crown opened fully) ... and now, third-eye-ish stuff comes up every so often ... but now, it's known that nothing of that type is any different than any other appearance, and that it is all experienced in the oneness of self/awareness.
Emptiness is Form, Form is Emptiness.
Shiva is Shakti; Shakti is Shiva.
Subjectivity (Self) is Objectivity (all Form).
Objectivity is Subjectivity.
Liberation in this life is of ultimate importance, and experiencing the reality of how true self (awareness) relates to all form, and that their meeting-flowing (a river is both water and motion) .... is actuality .... is Liberation.
Certain focus on the star, per this discussion, per Yogananda, etc., may be one helpful technique on the way there ... but it is not of ultimate, or even primary importance, and many people have realized enlightenment/liberation, without ever seeing it.
That's all.
Here's a good overview on the symbolism of the bindu.
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 22 2010 9:34:44 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 12:51:08 PM
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I disagree Kirtanman. The bindu may very well be the ultimate.
Even full kundalini rising won't dissolve the physical body back into light body.
If you have any other ideas on how to dissolve the physical body back into its natural state, I am all ears. This is the ultimate goal of Vajrayana.
Becoming enlightened or self-realized is childs play in comparison. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 22 2010 1:22:42 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 2:10:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi TI, Usually the bindu of five lights is seen between the eyes. A bindu is just a sphere of experience. In Togal, one merges oneself with the bindu that appears between the eyes and in the sphere of vision. This is what accelerates the purification leading to rainbow body. However, in other practices, one's bindu is the whole universe of possible existences, the all possible worlds world, all dimensions. This entails a total release of expectation and leaving be. Consider that carefully before embarking are a search for the lost bindu.
Adamant
Hi Adamant, :)
It appears that we are not speaking the same language although what you've described is sort of similar.
Here is my definition and normal interpretation of the 'bindu':
quote:
Bindu: the psychic center situated at the top back of the head; a point or drop which is the substratum of the whole cosmos, the seat of total creation.
...
The word bindu means 'drop or point'. It is more correctly termed bindu visarga, which literally means 'falling of the drop'. Bindu is represented by the crescent moon and a white drop, which is the nectar dripping down to vishuddhi chakra. It is the ultimate source out of which all things manifest and into which all things return.
"......(bindu) is the cause of the creation of word and meaning, now entering and now separating from one another."
".....from that (bindu) came ether, air, fire, water, earth and the letters of the alphabet."
Kama-Kala-Vilasa (verses 6-9)
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The seat of bindu is at the top back of the head, exactly at the spot where the Hindu brahmins leave a tuft of hair growing. Although this custom is still being followed today, its original purpose has been completely forgotten. In Sanskrit that tuft of hair is called shikha, which means 'the flame of fire'. Here, the word 'flame' stands for the flame of vasanas or the hidden karmas belonging to the previous life.
...
Every object, conscious or unconscious, is linked to the underlying essence of consciousness through the intermediary of the bindu. Every object evolves into material existence through the medium of the bindu and every object is withdrawn back to the source via the bindu as well. Bindu is a trapdoor opening in both directions. It is the means through which conscious centers such as man can realize the totality of sahasrara.
This quote is from ""Kundalini Tantra" Swami Satyananda Saraswati".
:)
TI |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 2:45:32 PM
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Let me summarize the teaching of the Longchen Nyingthig, Yangzab and Yeshe Lama regarding the bindu as follows: Steady your mind without distraction, so that the bindu appears. (Recall the examples of the mirror, the crystal ball and the prism). When it appears, remain steady. The single point of Trekcho is to let the awareness remain space-like, meaning wide-open and without focus. Just be like the mirror, the crystal ball and the prism, a unity of openness, spontaneous appearances and unlimited possibilities.
So you see, you don't focus on the bindu. Rather, you integrate into it. With respect to any appearance, whether it be the bindu of existence in the world or the bindu of consciousness, you simply integrate into it, no I/other dichotomy. So you don't say, "here I am; there's the bindu." It's more like, "I'm a bindu now." Thusly, your karmic elements dissolve and leave the pure wisdom lights as your true self-nature.
Keep in mind that all yogis, myself included, even those from the Theravada tradition (Daniel Ingram), experience in conjunction with this phenomena, the appearance of mandalas, deities with consorts, etc. This also is to be recognized a nondual, one's own self-nature. These visions culminate in various ways, but then begin to subside, until they reach the full limit of exhaustion, which is emptiness/dharmakaya.
One should also keep in mind that one can take the full exhaustion of all phenomena as the path, which is the mind's natural state without attachment or focus. Then, all the relative impure and pure phenomena naturally resolve into their own nature. There is really no need to pursue this bindu practice as a practice, unless you hope to achieve the rainbow body.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 2:49:41 PM
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Hi TI, The bindu that you refer to is physically located at the back of the head, but you see it between the eyes due to subtle channels that connect the eyes and heart.
Adamant |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 4:13:21 PM
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| The Bindu has very little to do with the eyes or heart. It is the medulla that connects the eyes and heart. The Bindu is like an extra chakra between the medulla and the crown. This is not the spiritual eye or the "star". |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 5:39:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
I disagree Kirtanman. The bindu may very well be the ultimate.
Even full kundalini rising won't dissolve the physical body back into light body.
If you have any other ideas on how to dissolve the physical body back into its natural state, I am all ears. This is the ultimate goal of Vajrayana.
Becoming enlightened or self-realized is childs play in comparison.
Hi Alwayson,
The physical body is in its natural state; physical bodies manifest physically.
However, I don't know that any of us are that far apart on what's being said here.
My point was that the bindu in the form of the "third eye star" is not something that warrants undue focus; the AYP Lessons cover this (the star, what it is, how to relate to it, and so on), quite nicely.
However, the bindu, and the convergence of consciousness which it represents, actually goes a lot deeper than the "third eye star" .... and that depth seems to be more along the lines of what you're talking about, and/or the potential you feel the bindu may have.
Here's an excerpt from the article I linked in my last post that gives some good background:
"In the Gross and Subtle realms (which are mapped out on the OM Mantra symbol) there is no end to the interplay of time, space, and causation.
While this never ending activity is part of the beauty of these manifested worlds, it is also the trap (See Yoga Sutra 2.5 on Avidya). It is common for people to say that Meditation is an ongoing process, which has no final goal, as one encounters experience after experience.
However, this is true only for those who choose to remain in the relatively shallow waters of the Gross and Subtle planes, where there are countless combinations and permutations of objects and events, perceptions and conceptions.
There are very few who seek to go beyond all of this activity in the Gross and Subtle, to the Causal and Absolute from which all of this emerges and into which it returns. For the few who do, Truth or Reality is found. It is to be found on the other side of the Bindu, through an experience known as Piercing the Bindu (Bindu vedhana). All of the other practices lead one in the direction of this.
It happens at the end of the mind, through what one may call God, grace, guru, shakti, or luck, depending on one's perspective. It is the job of the aspirant to do all of the preparation practices, while being ever mindful of the convergence point toward which he or she is headed.
To understand this is to have a higher understanding of the principle and practice known as surrender."
I hope this helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 22 2010 9:35:30 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 5:45:20 PM
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| Kirtanman, would you possibly agree that the sources Adamant and I are looking at are probably better than these web pages and excerpts made by dubious Indian gurus in the modern era? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 7:19:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Kirtanman, would you possibly agree that the sources Adamant and I are looking at are probably better than these web pages and excerpts made by dubious Indian gurus in the modern era?
Hi Alwayson,
Probably not; though I'd have to review the sources first, and I will (the ones linked and/or quoted in this thread, that is) ... I'm always up for good, clearly-communicated information ... which I would presume we all are, yes?
Why would you call Swami Jnaneshvara dubious, though?
His information is consistently clear, good and useful, in my experience.
There's nothing dubious about the article excerpt I quoted; I can vouch for it, based on direct experience.
I'll take a look at the information you and Adamant have been discussing, (and anything related that either of you, or anyone else care to provide) ... so that maybe we can all discuss this aspect from a more informed standpoint (the usefulness of a given resource, as it relates to this discussion on the importance of the star/bindu).
And again, I'll ask you: what is dubious, or doesn't fit, about the information/article excerpt I posted?
I felt it was both important and useful to the conversation .... and if you feel it's off the mark, maybe I'm missing the primary focus of what you're saying here .... and I'd welcome any clarification.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 9:51:29 PM
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Hey Kirtanman and Gumpi, These Great Perfection teachings are about the crystal-kati channel that goes from the heart to the eyes. The Togal teachings are based on the functionality of these channels. The Shivaite and Vedanta yogis don't know about these channels. You will only find teachings about these channels in the Great Perfection teachings.
According to all of Buddhism, this desire realm is not the natural state. The natural state is free of ignorance and confusion; it's where ignorance and confusion go to die. Whereas this realm is created by ignorance and confusion, according to Buddha. Buddha teaches that this world is just our projection and reality is purely relative to the level of wisdom or ignorance of our mental projections (aka karma).
So a realm relative to wisdom consciousness is a totally different dimension. When we fully dissolve all the projections of ignorance and desire, this physical body will actually dissolve into light. Those who remain in physical form after enlightenment are said to do so because of past vows and commitments to the beings on this planet.
Really, unless one is familiar with both the different teachings, discussions will just end up in the refuse bin of dogmatism. If you can give a fair evaluation of the literature in light of your own experience, then we can talk.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 10:23:30 PM
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Keep in mind that I spent 25 years in kundalini and tantra yoga from the Vendanta and Shivaite perspective. My family has a most ancient living lineage of such practices, so I have a profound appreciation for Vedic knowledge. My name is in the Rig Veda; my family is the definition of Aryan. Really.
In spite of that, my bhakti gave me the inspiration to pursue what India had lost after the Muslim invasions, and I have spent the past year meeting with some of the most respected and humble and (very old) yogis from Tibet. I have given their teachings a careful and thorough scrutiny, and have cross-examined lamas (much to their chagrin at times).
I have also practiced these teachings, Kagyu and Nyingma, thousands of hours of retreat time, personal coaching and home meditation. I have shared my experience with these yogis. I have a very close bond to the Taklung and Drikung Kagyu lamas, very very close. They took me in and gave me the rarest teachings that even His Holiness did not receive. They have offered me to run a meditation center and are asking me to run it while a lama goes into another three year retreat.
Despite that, I have continued to practice their methods with a spirit of healthy skepticism. The same hard time I give Yogani and all of you, I give them, too. Even more, because I see them. I've done all of this with the mindset of figuring out how exactly these fit together so that the two may be integrated into a single whole. Just like the lamas have to accept that there are no secrets anymore and many of their practices are just mirror images of a hindu counterpart practice, the gurus have to accept that some extremely profound methods were lost to Indian history and only remain in translated form in Tibet. I have vowed to liberate all the secrets and make them available, even if it means being killed by a dharma protector. Ha ha.
I don't mention all of this to say that I'm some great person. I'm just average, and I don't have any special attainments. What I do have is a special connection to rare teachings that are not well understood.
Anyway, one thing that everyone should be aware of right now is that the Vedanta/Shivaite, Vajrayana and Theravada yogis meditate literally side by side in the Himalayas and enjoy closeness and mutual respect. They take pictures meditating together and hang out. They talk to one another and know each other's teachings well. They also tease each other about their ideas, but that's how it goes in the marketplace of ideas. Attachment to views is the worst attachment of all. That one must be dissolved on the spot.
Adamant |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2010 : 11:54:10 PM
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"Vedanta/Shivaite, Vajrayana and Theravada yogis meditate literally side by side in the Himalayas"
That sounds a lot like Kashmir of the 9th-11th century, from what I've read. It must be a fantastic spiritual environment. |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2010 : 12:20:53 AM
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It goes on today.
Adamant |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2010 : 4:33:42 PM
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Hi Adamant, Gumpi and Alwayson :)
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
The Bindu has very little to do with the eyes or heart. It is the medulla that connects the eyes and heart.
From practical experience I have learned that there is a front channel that goes from the heart to the brow space behind the forehead. I believe this is how the heart's perception is connected to the eyes. This channel is not located anywhere near the medulla. It feels like a spacious channel that is about 2 inches wide and follows upwards from the heart, to the front of the throat, in front of the tongue on palate by the teeth and then into the top of the sinus cavities behind the brows.
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
The Bindu is like an extra chakra between the medulla and the crown. This is not the spiritual eye or the "star".
Gumpi, if you want to call it a chakra that's ok. I have heard that the bindu is not really a chakra though. It is the opening or precipice to the "manifestation of creation" (according to Swami Satyananda Saraswati) , more like a hole or doorway.
I agree, the bindu is definately not the star. The star is above that hole, about 4 inches higher and more towards the front top of the center above the head.
Adamant, at this point in my experience, the third eye looks to be some kind of mirror only. I say that because most of the time I can look through the third eye and see the 'compressed circle of multi-colored light that looks kind of like an eye or aperture' but if I want to get into it, it is way easier to send my attention to the star over the top of the head and then come downwards and backwards. It is like I'm using the straight up and down portion of the sushumna instead of the fork out towards the brow.. Is this how you perceive the star? For you, is the star located out from the brow or above the top the of the head?
Alwayson, I believe if you are seeing a golden circle and rainbow lights, you are actually looking at the star from below the heart chakra, perhaps from the muladhara. The golden ring is the heart chakra's light. As you get really close to the star, the concentric circles of colored light disappear..
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jan 23 2010 5:02:38 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2010 : 11:12:40 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Really, unless one is familiar with both the different teachings, discussions will just end up in the refuse bin of dogmatism. If you can give a fair evaluation of the literature in light of your own experience, then we can talk.
Adamant
Thanks for this; it was helpful.
I'm not the slightest bit interested in dogmatism, and know you aren't either.
Interestingly, if you read through this thread, you and I seem to be saying very, very similar things, here.
And (per this thread), we can both (and have) speak to experience of the star, and how it is experienced at various levels/states of awareness.
So, that's all good; hopefully it will be helpful to everyone reading.
I think part of what I may have been missing (and am guessing I'm not the only one), are some of the nuances of deeper Buddhist teachings, per the fact that you and Alwayson are both familiar with some of the deeper teachings of Buddhism, and most of the rest of us are not.
And so, if you're interested in what any of the rest of us have to say, you may have to make some allowances for that, and/or be willing to clarify some things, so that the rest of us can communicate with the two of you (and/or whoever else is familiar with Buddhism, here.)
I think it's fair to say that we all have experiences and insight that can help each other.
It's also accurate that I can give a fair evaluation of the literature in light of my own experience; I just don't have that much exposure to the specific literature you and Alwayson study, or have studied deeply ... just as the two of you presumably aren't as familiar with the Shiva Sutras, the Pratyabhijnahrdayam or the Para-Trisika-Vivarana, as I am.
However, the link you posted earlier in the thread was awesome; it outlines what I've been saying in this thread as well as anything I've said, or linked to, and with a bit of allowance for culture/phrasing, could have easily been written by a Kashmir Shaivite sage.
Even more importantly though ... just as it's "not about the star" ... it's not about the literature, either.
Means are not ends ... whether stars, or sacred texts or human lives or musical instruments.
A river is made of water and motion.
Saying that the star is of ultimate importance is one part of the river-motion saying another part of the river-motion is of ultimate importance.
This can turn into a motion chasing motion dynamic ... you know .... like a wheel.
This is what we want to avoid, yes?
It's knowing self as water and motion (emptiness and form) ... that self-liberates us into the "riverness" we've always been.
My primary input to Alwayson is based in experience; I just knew of a couple of references that articulated parts of what I was saying well, and so included them.
And, again, it seems (if you read through your posts and mine {Adamant}, in this thread), that we're actually in agreement, here, in general.
And I have zero interest in dogma, as I presume is the case for everyone participating in this discussion.
We're about what's real, and what works, yes?
The only thing of ultimate importance is who we know ourselves to be, in experience .... living awareness as the liberated self.
We're either conscious of this, or we're not ... and if we're not, we're either engaged in efficacious clearing of the obscuring ignorance, or we're not.
Liberation is not in the direction of focus.
Liberation is in the direction-totality of relaxation and openness.
Another excerpt from that Bindu Article I posted a link to:
"A funny thing happens with Meditation--it is both very complex and utterly simple at the same time.
Both the Beginning and Advanced stages have their own forms of simplicity to the process.
It is the middle ground, the Intermediate stages, where it can get confusing. In the very Beginning one simply sits, does a few basic practices, and experiences some degree of peace of mind. It seems pretty simple. Then, we start learning about philosophy and many other practices; it gets complicated, or so it seems.
The good news is that at the Advanced end of the spectrum, we return to simplicity, but of a much higher order. We come to see that all material objects are made only of fundamental elements of earth, water, fire, air, and space (and the more primal elements or gunas of sattvas, rajas, and tamas).
We come to see beyond the vast contents of mind, to the fact that the instruments of mind and senses are not really so complex after all.
Soon, we come to see that all of the complexity comes down to a few simple principles, which merge into the Bindu or point of convergence.
We come to see that the point of convergence is one and the same with the original point of divergence.
Pretty simple.
Not easy to do, but simple. "
And so, whether the goal is to dissolve the physical body into a rainbow body for whatever reasons one may have, or simply to know oneself as the rainbow in the first place .... no object, no effect of practice .... makes that much of a difference, or is that important.
And my purpose in saying that isn't to say "you're wrong" to Alwayson, in any way. Rather, it's purely my genuine attempt to offer some input, that per my own experience, might be able to help you (Alwayson) get where you say you want to go. That's all.
You may disagree with what I say; that's fine. I'm just clarifying that I'm not debating; I'm just trying to help, whether or not you agree with what I'm saying.
And back to my sense that Adamant and I are saying much the same thing:
As I've said, I don't know Buddhism very well, philosophically (meaning: I haven't studied it, as I have Kashmir Shaivism) ... but I have read some of the poetry and teachings of realized Buddhist sages .... and I've seen them say much the same thing (that Kashmir Shavite sages say; that Adamant says, that I say ... which basically is: it's ultimately about the Awareness, not any of the forms *in* Awareness).
In fact, Daniel Odier's (well-known modern teacher of Kashmir Shaivism and Chan Buddhism) edition of the Spandakarika contains quotes from many Buddhist sages and poets.
"Taste of the limitless
because nothing is separated
from your original essence
space-like consciousness
Great Fire of the Heart
indescribable joy at the Heart of the Real."
~Sahajanandabhairava
"Those who realize the awakening of Chan transcend subject and object. Besides this, there is no other mysterious principle."
~Fo-Yan
"Space can contain everything because space has no concept of the thought it can contain everything."
~Nirvana Sutra
"The Heart is called the immaculate resting place of the light of pure consciousness which is not different from all the parts of the body."
~Abhinavagupta
"Become radiant and your strength will become perfect
Having speedily achieved the relative siddhis
one should seek the absolute siddhis"
~Tilopa
You do know where Tilopa was from, yes?
Kashmir.
"He ensured the transmission of the Mahamudra by transmitting it to his disciple Naropa, who in turn transmitted it to the ninth-century Tibetans."
~Daniel Odier, Spandakarika, p. 133
Odier's Chan Buddhism-based Site
Odier's Kashmir Shaivism-based Site
He's a very interesting guy, kind of edgy, profoundly realized .... and well worth reading:
"Daniel Odier became a disciple of Kalou Rinpoché in 1968. He followed his teachings and received the Mahamûdra transmission. Pursuing his earlier interest in Chan (the Chinese zen of origins), he studied the correlation between Tantra and Ch'an, inspired by the work of the Chinese hermit Chien Ming Chen who he met in Kalimpong in 1968.
Some years later in the Himalayas Daniel followed the teachings of his Kashmiri master, the yogini Lalita Devî who also gave him the Mahamûdra transmission as well as some of the most profound mystical teachings of the Pratyabhijnâ and Spanda schools of the Kaula tradition.
Daniel taught Tantrism and Buddhism in several American universities before founding the Tantra/Chan centre in Paris, in 1995. In 2000, he disbanded this centre in order to encourage independent practice and today he gives workshops and seminars throughout the world.
His books on tantrism, which have been translated into eight languages, deal with the most profound aspects of the Shaivaite tantric path and of Chan."
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 23 2010 11:13:35 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2010 : 11:48:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
...
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Kirtanman :)
I'm surprised that you did not reference the Kabbalah definition of the bindu. I found this:
link: http://www.kabbalahsociety.org/PDFs/kenton1.pdf
quote:
Interconnected with Vishuddhi chakra is Bindu Visarga. Very little is known and written about it as it is beyond the realm of all conventional experience. On the Jacob's Ladder it would relate to the Yesod of Beriah, which underlies the Daat of Yezirah. "Bindu is a trap-door opening in both directions." It is said to be the origin of manifest individuality. "From this point or seed an object, an animal, a human being or whatever, can arise and manifest. Each and every object has a Bindu as its base. That which was previously formless assumes shape through the Bindu, and its nature is fixed by the Bindu as well."
Is this a valid source for interpretation of the Kabbalah? Can you elaborate on that? It makes me think of shape-shifting..
What about this one from the book called "Exploring Chakras: Awaken Your Untapped Energy By Susan G. Shumsky"?
quote:
In Kabbalah, bindu is called “I AM. ...
:)
TI |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2010 : 09:17:08 AM
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Hi Kirtanman, I am familiar with all the Siva Sutras yogaspandakarika and whatnot. I've studied those in great depth and practiced those techniques in detail. The lineage of those teachings is derivative of the 84 Mahasiddhas who were Buddhist tantrikas. Those teachings are a spin off. I'm not trying to compare Siva against the Buddha. I'm just describing the history of the methods you are reading about.
Adamant
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Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 24 2010 09:45:33 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2010 : 1:44:39 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Kirtanman, I am familiar with all the Siva Sutras yogaspandakarika and whatnot. I've studied those in great depth and practiced those techniques in detail. The lineage of those teachings is derivative of the 84 Mahasiddhas who were Buddhist tantrikas. Those teachings are a spin off. I'm not trying to compare Siva against the Buddha. I'm just describing the history of the methods you are reading about.
Adamant
Hm .. interesting; pretty much the opposite of what I've seen in terms of the related history .... but I'd also say that it doesn't matter.
You seem to be in a better position than I am as far as how the Buddhist side of the related teachings and practices match up ... but based on what I've seen and read, they're very, very closely related.
In fact, I think it's fair to say that (for instance) Kashmir Shaivism, Dzogchen, Vajrayana and Chan (and Zen, if you want to "keep going") have far more in common with each other, than they do with (respectively) the rest of Hinduism and/or the rest of Buddhism.
The reason I'd say it doesn't matter, is:
Both the tantric non-dual paths of Hinduism (specifically non-dual Shaivism, but there are some others, just less well-known, of the Shakta and even the Vaisnava variety) and Buddhism are excellent, accurate-map paths, that have helped a lot of people (relative to other, more dualistic types of schools/systems) to realize their true nature, and to enjoy liberation and enlightenment.
The reason the non-dual tantric paths seem to be especially successful (in my opinion/experience/awareness) is:
A. They're non-dual (and thereby closer to reality; dual, or even dual/non-dual schools do produce enlightened people ... but advanced practitioners in those systems have to figure out the "non-dual" aspects of actual on their own, via experience, which is fine ... but for a lot of people, the duality of teachings themselves will act as a barrier).
&
B. They're tantric. Not tantric as in sexual; tantric as in "making use of the tangible aspects of life which contribute to ignorance .... sensual pleasure, aesthetic pleasures (food, wine, music, etc.) sexuality, words, ideas, and so on) as tools for liberation." It's a brilliant approach, and works out very nicely for many, especially those of us in this time, who are not inclined to join a monastery.
Simply put: non-dual tantric paths "play well in the real world" .... very well.
And I'd presume both you and Alwayson agree with this; you both seem to resonate with non-dual tantric paths as well, just on the Buddhist "side" of things.
Obviously, there are a couple of key doctrinal differences, which, while very fundamental (emptiness/void/non-self on the Buddhist side, only-self on the Shaivism side), still leave the vast majority of the teachings and practices the same (strange, but it seems to be that way).
They're kind of like templates: the Buddhists (as I understand it) took the original Shaivite teachings, and "plugged in" Buddhist deities and what-not.
And that's not casting aspersions in any way ... it was the intelligent thing to do.
Advaitic Shaivites had a clear accurate way to express how consciousness actually operates ... and developed Shaiva Advaita, sometime in pre-history. Then, one iteration of Shaiva Advaita became Kashmir Shaivism (there were other schools of Shaiva Advaita in south India and elsewhere), via symbols, rituals, etc., which were familiar, in general, to all Vedic Hindus.
Kashmir, as you may know, was at that time, 7th-8th Century, known as Oddiyana, the original home of Padmasambhava, and other sages who dedicated their lives to taking the ultimate truths of Mahamudra to their neighbors to the east (Tibet, China).
Then the sages of both Tibet and China, after receiving transmission from sages such as Padmasambhava and Tilopa, among others, and took that same template ... which is just a clear, simple symbolic structure of how consciousness actually works, and how the ignorance of conceived partiality can relax into the non-dual awareness of/as actuality .... and "mapped" it to the structures of Buddhism (or, in the case of Tibet, Bon as well).
These same non-dual sages kept proceeding east ... and ended up in Japan, where Zen was created.
I don't think there's much debate about this historical flow; if you feel there is, I'd be interested in any sources or other info you might have (purely out of casual curiousity; I'm fairly confident regarding what I'm saying, solely because I've seen a lot of very credible sources, including Daniel Odier, who studied with masters of both sets of traditions - Shaivite and Buddhist, and including all related academics who books I've read; however, admittedly, I haven't read any by Buddhist academics; suffice it to say it wouldn't surprise me at all if they say it all went the *other* direction. Everyone seems to feel it says something positive about their tradition if "it came first".
Kabbalah does this, too (and, as far as I know, Kabbalah and Shaivism are undeniably the two oldest spiritual systems (sets of teachings that were systematized, in some way) on the planet, purely from an historical standpoint).
Ultimately, it boils down to:
How much, if at all, does a given set of teachings contribute to our own liberated living?
And the good news there, is:
Shaivism, Buddhism, Kabbalah, etc. are only truly needed for those of us who feel a draw to such things.
If you just want a simple, clear accurate map that can help you enjoy liberated living .... AYP takes care of that, *just* fine .... and you don't even have to learn Sanskrit, or deal with sages bearing significantly multisyllabic names ("Padmasambhava", "Abhinavagupta", "Patanajali", and so on.  ).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 24 2010 2:01:01 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2010 : 3:03:48 PM
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Hi Alwayson,
quote:
Can someone who sees the star verify five differently colored rings?
No. In the third eye there are concentric rings going forward, alternating blue and gold when viewed from the inside. In the distance is a star, which is white and very bright. So in my experience, when the star is viewed from the third eye looking forward it is surrounded by a blue ring which has a gold ring around it. These rings are not actually around the star, but only appear to be so because of the angle/ perspective.
I'm not sure what the reference to 5 colours/ elements is about but could be something about the perspective coming from lower down in the sushumna. Do you know what the five colours referred to are?
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Jan 24 2010 4:05:14 PM |
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I have a hunch that the star is important
