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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 19 2010 : 8:46:20 PM
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A few things have been on my mind lately, I think actually the same things for the past year. But now it's back and I've resolved something for myself. A long time spent confused, now over. I would like to share:
First, Goenka's vipassana explanation, Mahamudra and Trekcho. (Thanks Ruben for sharing Goenka). The Buddha's teaching is about dissolving karma, all latent tendencies good and bad. When all these tendencies go out, it's nibbana. He also taught the 12 links of dependant origination. The Buddha taught his disciples to de-link vedana/sensation. Whereas, the Mahamudra/Trekcho people delink Avidya/ignorance. Either way, when one link is removed, the whole chain collapses. And if one remains at that moment for a long time, all the tendencies fizzle out. So here, the two traditions converge.
Second, Nibbana. It doesn't mean "blowing out" into nothingness. The Buddha is very clear about that. The Buddha describes nibbana thusly in the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta (I quote a commentary about it),
quote:
Beyond the thousandfold world system over which Baka reigns there are planes of existence of which he is totally unaware, and beyond all conditioned phenomena there is a reality that transcends even "the allness of the all" — a consciousness without manifestation, boundless, luminous on all sides — to which Baka has no access
What the Buddha says positively about nibbana is:
quote:
Having directly known the all as the all, and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all.
Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around, has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.
So here is the description the Buddha gave about what nibbana is, rather than what it isn't, something beyond "existence" as we frame it.
Third, siddhis, rainbow body, and everything else. In the Theravada teachings there are no special techniques about these. They seem to arise naturally when attaining Arahantship. Also in Vajrayana, there are some paths that have special techniques where one intentionally goes after siddhis, like Deity Yoga. Some that are not a special technique for attaining siddhis, like Togal and Co-Emergent Mahamudra, where the siddhis just happen if one remains in a certain way for a long time.
I have been very perplexed by my teacher's consistent insistence that "Rainbow body is not important." He even invited over a very old lady yogini disciple of Chatral Rinpoche for dinner and had her answer all my questions. Of course I asked about Rainbow Body and Togal. She agreed with my teacher. Here's basically what they told me: Padmasambhava attained rainbow body, but Milarepa did not. Both are on the same level. This is because once one recognizes the "root of mind" the rest just happens naturally, which is what the dharmakaya is, nature. The outcome has a lot to do with one's previous aspirations. And my teacher told me about how Guru Pagmodrubpa put the "Aspiration Prayer" on his head, as if to say, "my whole practice is 'all mother sentient beings be established in buddhahood." This was their explanation.
Then, I look back at the Samaññaphala Sutta about the "Mind-made Body," and recognize it all makes sense. There's also a passage from the Canon that I can't find where an Arahant goes to the Buddha, levitates in the air and evaporates into fire at his parinibbana, which is something like the Great Transferance. Whereas, the Buddha's body was cremated.
Fourth, karma, dependant origination and enlightened dependant origination. Again, the point of the Buddha's path is to allow all one's karma (good and bad) to fizzle out. Karma happens at the link of samskara/volitional formations, which proliferate themselves by way of impersonal habit energy. But then, enlightenment has its own dependent origination. In the Upanisa Sutta, it basically goes suffering, faith, joy, rapture, tranquility, happiness, concentration, knowledge and vision of things as they are, disenchantment with worldly life, dispassion, freedom/release/emancipation, knowledge of the destruction of all toxins/karma.
Strangely, Lord Jigten Sumgon is described as Tibet's "Master of Interdependence." His teaching in Gongchig basically states in two different verses, "enlightenment arises as cause and effect," and "buddhas are dependently originated." These two statements of his basically contradict all the other Vajrayana teachings and bring the Drikung's lineage in line with the Upanisa Sutta. The karma, intentionality of nibbana.
Finally, this brings me to the method I've been using and refining as Mahamudra/Trekcho/Shamatha-Vipassana/Clear Light as a 24/7 thing, but is deep when I sit. Whatever arises, be it the sense of "I" or "being," any thought or emotion, I simply examine the sensations attendant to it while calming one's mind with breath shamatha. The examination is just the energy of inquiry, not a verbal question; it's like looking at a diamond through that little peep-hole diamond examiners use. Look it over and through and through. By recognizing no color, shape or size the sensation just disappears, and the link is removed. All the 12 links of ignorance dissolve and the 12-links of enlightenment arise. That no color, no shape or size is the Clear Light aka "unconditioned awareness." (See Pabhassara Sutta, which I believe is synonymous with the radiant consciousness described in the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta).
This has been kind of a break through for me. In the past few weeks my meditation has improved a lot. My teacher had a dream where he met me and asked me questions about my meditation. Suddenly he's happy I'm over my rainbow body hang up, and telling me some super way out explanations about the meaning behind the Dharmakaya and the Buddha's incarnations. Also, I had my first dharma dream in months. I've been having all these karmic dreams that are riddled with chaos. Today I dreamed about explaining karma and dependent origination. Which is why I'm writing now.
The funny thing is that this is the very same insight I had just before joining here as "themysticseeker." Some of you might remember me coming on here and blasting on about selflessness. I had this fantastic insight, but I couldn't put it into words and when I tried, I screwed it up big time. Trying to put it into words has spun me out in so many directions.
Yogani wrote me that until all my boundaries come crashing down, it won't be enlightenment. He was right to an extent. I have been practicing AYP all along. It provides a very powerful sensual bliss feeling. One can do what I have described above on this feeling, but the 12-links to enlightenment don't arise.
I'm going to go out on a limb here. The work of vipassana is to purify one's unconscious of all tendencies. I humbly submit that, perhaps, a powerful sensual bliss dampens those tendencies from arising into the conscious mind where the insight/inquiry practice can unlink them, because it is so desirable. AYP bliss is also one that allows a person to be dispassionate to the worldly. However, I humbly submit that the knowledge of destruction of toxins is missing (the twelfth link), because the inner sensuality is an inner passion.
I don't say this lightly or just to take a stab at Yogani, whom I dearly respect and admire. This is a huge concern of mind and have been on this for the past 14 months. There's nothing wrong with AYP. I think perhaps a modification to the self-inquiry practice would do it, to include this knowledge about the 12-links and vedana. It is the real anatomy of human consciousness. The 12-links of dependent origination are a scientific account of the mind.
It makes sense that we do AYP pranayama and mantra instead of just breath shamatha. Since the Buddha's time we have degenerated. Our channels are polluted, literally, with chemicals and radiation and all kinds of crap. It makes sense we use more forceful methods to dredge up blockages. But I think there should be a balance. Ecstatic conductivity is a high frequency. It's a little too far to left. One must not forfeit this opportunity to purify the karmic body of all latent psychic tendencies using a vipassana-like scientific method.
And now that I've come full circle and see all the hills and valleys, I'm convinced this Open-Source AYP practice can produce buddhas, siddhas, christed-beings and whatever gamut of ascension has to offer. But it will need this one tiny little added element of purification of not just the nervous system, but the entire unconscious mind.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 19 2010 8:58:45 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2010 : 9:17:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Here's basically what they told me: Padmasambhava attained rainbow body, but Milarepa did not.
Really? I always thought since Milarepa gained Buddhahood during life on earth, he has rainbow body by definition. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 19 2010 9:24:00 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2010 : 10:50:15 PM
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He didn't obtain the Great Transference, nor did his body dissolve when he died. But what I'm getting at is the Rainbow Body naturally occurs with even Theravada shamatha-vipassana. As you have mentioned in an old thread, the Rainbow Body is what remains after we have purified all our karmic elements. So whatever method purifies karma achieves the Rainbow Body. And there's nothing particularly special about any one of them. For example, there are many stories about Drukpa Kunley (the "Divine Madman" of the Drukpa Kagyu) who would sleep with people's wives, then take them off and seal them up in a cave to meditate on him, and they would attain the Great Transference within 9 weeks or 9 months.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 20 2010 09:39:48 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 11:54:29 AM
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| If you want to see how all teachings converge or the bottomline understanding of the Pali canon, you look at Madhyamaka, especially the Dalai Lama's book. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 20 2010 11:59:23 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 12:19:27 PM
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Thanks Adamant, I enjoyed reading your post |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 12:20:07 PM
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quote:
This is a huge concern of mind
Was this supposed to be "a huge concern of mine" or did you mean to write "mind"? Freudian slip?  
Love.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 3:15:19 PM
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Hi Alwayson, Madhiyamaka is just view.
Hi Sparkle, thank you.
Hi Carson, It was a slip.
Adamant |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 3:28:57 PM
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Is there REALLY anything to be concerned about? Isn't everything perfect just the way it is?
Love.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 4:01:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Is there REALLY anything to be concerned about? Isn't everything perfect just the way it is?
Love.
I believe there is some non-trivial fact which must be recognized: enlightenment will not happen until one has performed the method to exhaust one's karma. It would follow that one has to know how karma operates. The 12-links of dependent origination illustrate that functionality. The middle way view and the shamatha-vipassana method provides for its de-linking. Now, AYP has almost all these elements. Yogani does have a scientific leaning to his teachings. There is a scientific method of de-link karma. Just something to consider.
Adamant |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 4:42:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Is there REALLY anything to be concerned about? Isn't everything perfect just the way it is?
Love.
I believe there is some non-trivial fact which must be recognized: enlightenment will not happen until one has performed the method to exhaust one's karma. It would follow that one has to know how karma operates. The 12-links of dependent origination illustrate that functionality. The middle way view and the shamatha-vipassana method provides for its de-linking. Now, AYP has almost all these elements. Yogani does have a scientific leaning to his teachings. There is a scientific method of de-link karma. Just something to consider.
Adamant
I thought that once rigpa is realized, you don't need to worry about karma or merit. Thats what certain lamas and loppons have said.
Secondly, the whole point of buddhism, even theravada, is to view reality correctly. The ONLY difference between a Buddha and you, is that a buddha sees reality correctly. This is why tibetans say the bhumi levels are illusionary.
I suggest worrying about viewing reality correctly and not worrying about karma. All buddhas, without exception, attain buddhahood through madhyamaka, as Nagarjuna clearly says.
You just need to distinguish between the clarity, vividness of ordinary awareness and the thoughtstream. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 20 2010 5:49:36 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:21:17 PM
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Hi adamant
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
I believe there is some non-trivial fact which must be recognized: enlightenment will not happen until one has performed the method to exhaust one's karma. It would follow that one has to know how karma operates. The 12-links of dependent origination illustrate that functionality. The middle way view and the shamatha-vipassana method provides for its de-linking. Now, AYP has almost all these elements. Yogani does have a scientific leaning to his teachings. There is a scientific method of de-link karma. Just something to consider.
In my experience karma is the result of self-judgments. Drop the self-judgments and you drop the karma. Karma is incurred when you feel bad about something you did. If you are truly living in the moment (abiding in pure bliss consciousness), and leaving the past in the past, there is no more karma. At least that is the view here.
Love.
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Ruben
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:41:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Thanks Adamant, I enjoyed reading your post
I second that! Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences, Adamant. Have a feeling I'll be reading this post regularly.
quote:
First, Goenka's vipassana explanation, Mahamudra and Trekcho. (Thanks Ruben for sharing Goenka).
The gratitude is reciprocal! Your posts have been (and continue to be) very inspiring to me. They made a huge contribution to my deciding to start meditating, and gain clarity about how to practice. Have a feeling that my first post on AYP has been a major step in my journey towards spiritual development. Things have evolved wonderfully since then. Many many thanks to Yogani for creating this so attractive website, and to all wonderful people participating and contributing to its enrichment!!
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Edited by - Ruben on Jan 20 2010 5:51:41 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:43:15 PM
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Hi Alwayson, Once you recognize rigpa there is no more present karmic action. But the past karmic tendencies will continue to come up, and subtle latent tendencies remain embedded deep in the ancient karmic body. All the Great Perfection lamas will have people do Vajrasattva to purify "the billion billion year old karmic body." Just walking around and not-practicing will not achieve the result, if all one is doing is rigpa view. One still must have a spirit of renunciation and practice sitting meditation to achieve a deep samadhi whereby the deepest karmic sediments may be contacted.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:45:39 PM
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Hi Carson, Are you referring to AYP when you say "the view here"? Karma is simply actions, tendencies that are either good, bad or neutral. Self-judgment is guilt. Karma is not guilt. Nor is it "what goes around comes around."
Adamant |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:51:41 PM
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| Even in the Pali canon, it says not to really worry about karma unless you have the divya cakksus. So even back then, Shakyamuni was really not emphasizing karma. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:54:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Alwayson, Once you recognize rigpa there is no more present karmic action. But the past karmic tendencies will continue to come up, and subtle latent tendencies remain embedded deep in the ancient karmic body. All the Great Perfection lamas will have people do Vajrasattva to purify "the billion billion year old karmic body." Just walking around and not-practicing will not achieve the result, if all one is doing is rigpa view. One still must have a spirit of renunciation and practice sitting meditation to achieve a deep samadhi whereby the deepest karmic sediments may be contacted.
Adamant
Imagine a room that was dark for 1000 years. You just need to turn on the light for ONE SECOND to cancel out the previous 1000 years. This was in "Flight of the Garuda" somewhere, this is not my invention.
Vajrasattva is only there for people who have taken vows, as repair for those vows.
I do agree that once rigpa is realized that one must use yoga to fuel oneself to Buddhahood as you are driven by the vow you took to achieve Buddhahood as soon as possible (on behalf of others). If this is what you mean by karma, then I agree. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 20 2010 6:14:22 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 5:54:31 PM
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Hi Adamant....
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Carson, Are you referring to AYP when you say "the view here"?
No....Just the view here.....as in right here
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Karma is simply actions, tendencies that are either good, bad or neutral. Self-judgment is guilt. Karma is not guilt. Nor is it "what goes around comes around."
Karma is what you make of it....what you make it into. It is not arbitrary. It is not outside of the One....there is nothing outside of the One.
Love.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 6:10:30 PM
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Hi Alwayson, I can anticipate your references. But before we go there, let's be clear about this context. I'm not talking about knowing about one past and future karma. I'm talking about the mechanism to purify it all. The divine eye does not come into play here at all. The Buddha's teaching is all about purification; purification is all the Buddha taught. It is the "Path of Purification." What is purified? Karma, in the sense of the latent and active behavioral tendencies residing in the unconscious mind/alaya/bhavanga. I'm only talking about inclinations toward behaviors.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 6:14:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Alwayson, Once you recognize rigpa there is no more present karmic action. But the past karmic tendencies will continue to come up, and subtle latent tendencies remain embedded deep in the ancient karmic body. All the Great Perfection lamas will have people do Vajrasattva to purify "the billion billion year old karmic body." Just walking around and not-practicing will not achieve the result, if all one is doing is rigpa view. One still must have a spirit of renunciation and practice sitting meditation to achieve a deep samadhi whereby the deepest karmic sediments may be contacted.
Adamant
Imagine a room that was dark for 1000 years. You just need to turn on the light for ONE SECOND to cancel out the previous 1000 years. This was in "Flight of the Garuda" somewhere, this is not my invention.
Vajrasattva is only there for people who have taken vows, as repair for those vows.
I do agree that once rigpa is realized that one must use yoga to fuel oneself to Buddhahood as you are driven by the vow you took to achieve Buddhahood as soon as possible (on behalf of others).
The middle point about Vajrasattva is wrong. I didn't take any vows, and I'm doing Vajrasattva. In the Nyingmapa and Kagyupa lineage the "Four Foundations" 1) Guru Yoga, 2) Vajrasattva, 3) Mandala and 4) Long Prostration (of 100,000 each) are prerequisite to receiving teachings like Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Nowadays, open minded lamas will do away with long prostrations, but Guru Yoga and Vajrasattva are considered absolutely essential and profound for all students.
The part about the lamp is right, but one has to keep the lamp on. The lamp on just shows you that there are these tendencies. It does not tell you how to dispel them. More importantly, that lamp has to remain on and be shown down deep into the cave where all the creepy crawlies live. It is at that deep place that the practice of insight de-links these tendencies in samadhi.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 20 2010 6:37:38 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 6:21:09 PM
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| A certain loppon said that staying in rigpa fullfills the requirement for guru yoga. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 20 2010 6:35:59 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 6:22:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Adamant....
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Carson, Are you referring to AYP when you say "the view here"?
No....Just the view here.....as in right here
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Karma is simply actions, tendencies that are either good, bad or neutral. Self-judgment is guilt. Karma is not guilt. Nor is it "what goes around comes around."
Karma is what you make of it....what you make it into. It is not arbitrary. It is not outside of the One....there is nothing outside of the One.
Love.
We're talking apples and oranges now, I'm afraid. Karma is what you make it into; that's right. There's nothing outside the One. But that view doesn't stir up the crud in the channels and release it. More importantly it doesn't perform the task of cutting off future becoming.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 6:39:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
A certain loppon said that staying in rigpa fullfills the requirement for guru yoga.
Sure there are many ways to scramble eggs. What you are talking about is the essence of guru yoga, rigpa as guru. But even those who say that will still be taught and practice guru yoga with form.
But, we are in agreement about this anyway. What I've written in the post above is rigpa as guru yoga. Rigpa delinks at the level of avidya. Theravada vipassana delinks at the level of vedana. Also, Rigpa has a sensation quality of bliss. So vedana wraps back around. Check out what the Buddhas says about formless infinite sensation in the Maha-nidana Sutta, because I think there is a great danger in misunderstanding and misusing Great Perfection teachings to one's downfall.
Either way, the house of cards tumbles (at that moment). One must continue that way to purify the karmic body. Vajrasattva is just one practice saying "I'm purifying; I'm purifying; I'm purifying." What was not clear to me was how the process works from a systems standpoint. Which is what I tried to describe.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 20 2010 6:48:33 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 9:53:02 PM
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| Doesn't completion stage and other such yoga purify the channels of the karmic body? |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 20 2010 10:16:40 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2010 : 10:23:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Doesn't completion stage and other such yoga purify the channels of the karmic body?
By completing Vajrasattva, one's karmic body is purified. Mandala practice accumulates the merit of a nirmanakaya. Then, by completion stage one us utilizing the channels to generate the magical body. The karmic body is the outer layer; there are subtler layers.
In Vajrasattva and Mandala for instance, one does not visualize one's body in any other form. It is one's present form. In deity yoga, guru yoga, dharma protector practice, one visualizes one's body (speech and mind) as a deity.
But my original post is not about deity yoga and such; it is about those practices that lead to the same result without such intentions, Togal, for instance.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 20 2010 10:31:11 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2010 : 06:57:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Now, AYP has almost all these elements.
Adamant
Hi Adamant
I think you may be neglecting the self-inquiry aspect of AYP, it is possible that this may de-link as you describe, especially inquiry like Byron Katie's and other similar one's. |
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How Theravada, Vajrayana and AYP Converge
