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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 17 2010 : 9:26:40 PM
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a discussion I thought I would start,
many times in life I thought things would make me happy. If I become a good golfer I would be happy about it, make some money and I would be happy about that, eating well and it will make me happy, find a life partner and that would make me happy.
in truth I could be a bad golfer and be happy, a good golfer and be happy, make little money and be happy, make a lot of money and be happy. SOmetimes it seems as if it is a hard truth to accept, but truth is that way sometimes.
just felt like sharing
brother Neil
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2010 : 11:06:27 PM
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Hi Brother Neil & All,
Good topic; thanks for starting it.
The Buddha is quoted as saying:
"There is no way to happiness; happiness is the way."
Most of us, as ideas-called-me, ran through the gamut of things that might make us happy: a great high, a good lay, a fat paycheck, a lofty title, a new car, a big house, and so on and so forth.
There's an idea generated about how we think these things will make us feel. They either aren't as good as we thought they would be, or they're great, and we almost instantly become afraid of losing them, and so, we can't enjoy them.
It's all so convoluted, it's a wonder the ego-idea manages any happiness at all!
Have you ever experienced natural, spontaneous joy?
The kind of joy that doesn't involve thinking?
Playing with a child or pet. Making love with your beloved. Grooving to a great song. Laughing with friends.
Just notice ... moments of true living, true joy ... don't involve thinking; they don't involve having ... and they most certainly don't involve thinking about having.
The ego-idea we're all conditioned to think we are is a messed-up mystery of conflicting ideas.
Living is enjoyed in its absence; here in the real. There are happy fools, and happy sages; pretty much everyone else continues to dream on ... to try to dream until their dream comes true.
Doesn't work; the one trying to live out its fantasies is the fullness dreaming it is partial, and therefore needs to get and have and keep, in order to become full.
Insanity, literally.
The whole idea of being a "me" who needs to have or get or be is a false premise that's doomed to dissolution (and disillusion) from the get-go.
When we drop all ideas and just love with our whole heart, in every moment ... whether it's letting someone in in traffic, smiling at a store clerk, or kissing your beloved ... life is real, life is beautiful, life is whole ... and so are we. Because we no longer dream we're separate from life; we are life, living.
Live and love wholeheartedly, now, and you'll never even think about being happy again; you'll be way too busy creating happiness.
"To have all give all to all."
~A Course In Miracles
"Teach only love, for that is what you are."
~A Course In Miracles
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2010 : 11:28:45 PM
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Both your posts made me happy!
Thanks for THAT! |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2010 : 6:42:52 PM
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Kman
yeah, I remember one time thinking so much that I went and laid down under a tree and gave up. somehow after that there was a joy just pumping gas of all things. So how do I recreate that
brother Neil
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2010 : 10:44:25 AM
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Hey Brother Neil
quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
So how do I recreate that
I know this was directed to Kirtanman, and I'm sure he will do a much better job of answering then I will, but I would like to chime in here regardless.
IME, the way to find spontaneous joy (or whatever you would like to call bliss for no apparent reason) is to realize that you can't think yourself to bliss. You have to give up trying to "solve" things with the mind. It is in the giving up of trying to understand that you find bliss in the smallest of things. I have had a few similar experiences to this in the past, and a couple of months ago it really clicked here that giving up was a big part of emobodying truth. It is the striving, the trying, the searching that keeps us from being that which we already are. Giving up trying to understand, giving up trying to be (something other then what you already are), giving up beliefs that things will be better in the future, giving up period.....this is how we come to Know ourselves as pure bliss for no apparent reason. This is my experience anyways.
Hopefully Kman will clarify (or contradict, put me in my place or whatever ) more.
Love.
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 19 2010 10:47:10 AM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2010 : 7:43:31 PM
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yeah man resistance doesn't really seem to help much maybe i should give that up. Or maybe I should give up trying to give up, think that will work
good luck on the house thing and the new yoga classes
brother Neil
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2010 : 9:19:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hey Brother Neil
quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
So how do I recreate that
I know this was directed to Kirtanman, and I'm sure he will do a much better job of answering then I will, but I would like to chime in here regardless.
**
Giving up trying to understand, giving up trying to be (something other then what you already are), giving up beliefs that things will be better in the future, giving up period.....this is how we come to Know ourselves as pure bliss for no apparent reason. This is my experience anyways.
Hopefully Kman will clarify (or contradict, put me in my place or whatever ) more.
Love.
Hey Brother Carson, Brother Neil & All,
Brother Carson:
Your mystifying lack of confidence aside ...... you answered pretty much as I would.
To All:
And, it's not that this answer (giving up) is always the right answer ... it's just the only one I know that actually works.
But only every time.
Why does it work?
Because it removes the veils of thinking that block reality.
Bliss is reality.
Satchidananda ... RealityConsciousnessBliss.
One flowing ... not three "Reality, Consciousness & Bliss" ... One ... RealityConsciousnessBliss.
How do we experience RealityConsciousnessBliss?
Simplicity itself:
By ReallyConsciouslyBlessing.
How do we do that?
By Giving Up//Letting Go.
Ego-mind is a sense; not a self. It's as if hearing or sight decided "No, no ... I'm in charge!!"
Letting Go isn't a technique or a manipulation; it's restoring the natural harmony of reality by simply opening to what is.
We're the River of Life dreaming we're ice cubes.
Let the light of Awareness melt you.
Life works just fine without all that dream-control; life knows what it's doing.
The human experience isn't "to manage" .... the human experience is to enJoy.
The Yoga Spandakarika makes the point that only ignorance (the ignorance of thinking up the separate self over and over and over) can block natural bliss.
And then, it asks the beautiful, rhetorical question:
And then (when ignorance is removed), how shall depression ever arise, in the absence of its cause?
Bliss is only absent in the moments awareness is not present.
Presence and thinking are mutually exclusive.
Thinking happens in time; awareness is reality.
I hope this is helpful ..... wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 19 2010 10:53:07 PM |
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manish
India
1 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2010 : 07:17:49 AM
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| yes the words coming out of your mouths are really true and i admit it totally. but i think the best way to remain happy is to have a healthy body and best way to have a healthy body is yoga therapy |
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Mark Lehman
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 06:49:01 AM
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Really Yogas are always helps you a lot.
Lehman. |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 10:25:24 AM
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| I think this is more about having reasonable expectations than anything else. Golfing, making money, playing music, whatever it is you're in to; There's no reason these things can't provide you with enjoyment and happiness. You just can't expect to find some kind of fundamental or unshakable happiness from them. It's about keeping things within reasonable limits and not allowing our interests to become obsessions. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 1:25:38 PM
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Great topic Brother Neil, and great responses from Kirtanman and Carson.
I have considered this often lately.
You guys are so right that giving up/ letting go are the only ways we can become, or transform.
Today i woke up and i felt profound sadness. I cried for a long time. I've gone through a lot of suffering to be here in this moment today, all for the sake of becoming more myself. Giving up my desires.
I have a question for you guys, then:
My desires are basically to find a new path in the working world, one that can fulfill my desires to support myself and my partner financially and to contribute, as my current job is becoming more and more untenable. These things remaining unfulfilled leaves an obvious conclusion.
I don't see how these are negative desires to have, and maybe they are not, maybe it is only my attachment to them that leaves them unfulfilled. Regardless, I know where my happiness comes from, and its from inside. Rather, i don't feel that these things will bring me happiness, but that they are motivated by bhakti.
I have even given up these desires today. It has been a multi-year process to do this.
I welcome your own viewpoint on this if you would like to say anything regarding this matter.
xx
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 1:44:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
yeah man resistance doesn't really seem to help much maybe i should give that up. Or maybe I should give up trying to give up, think that will work
good luck on the house thing and the new yoga classes
brother Neil
Brother Neil, I'd say that there is no possible way to give up until you are ready. You can try to give up, as you say, but giving up itself is spontaneous. It comes when you reach the end, and it is instinctual.
Carson really nailed it. Basically what he said is we don't have that much control over stuff that happens. (correct me if i'm wrong carson!) |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 2:04:38 PM
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Hey TTN and All 
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I have a question for you guys, then:
My desires are basically to find a new path in the working world, one that can fulfill my desires to support myself and my partner financially and to contribute, as my current job is becoming more and more untenable. These things remaining unfulfilled leaves an obvious conclusion.
My suggestion would be to do what you are inclined to do in order to fulfill your desires, but don't be attached to any specific outcome of your actions.
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I don't see how these are negative desires to have, and maybe they are not, maybe it is only my attachment to them that leaves them unfulfilled.
I wouldn't say that these are negative desires to have....I too desire to provide for my family. How that happens though, I don't care. I find that if "I" stay out of the way (read: trying to manipulate life so that it conforms to my idea of how it "should" be), the Divine always finds a way to provide and I never "want" for anything. Everything that is given is fully appreciated and everything that is missing is not suffered over.
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Rather, i don't feel that these things will bring me happiness, but that they are motivated by bhakti.
So let your Bhakti be your guide. Make sure you are connecting to Inner Silence daily and then follow your heart. Let go of desired outcomes and completely enjoy what you have/are given.
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Basically what he said is we don't have that much control over stuff that happens. (correct me if i'm wrong carson!)
We can't control much (if anything) at all. This is why "surrender" is such an important lesson to learn. When we can surrender to Life as it is, everything just flows....no obstructions to create friction.
Love!
P.S> I would say that the only thing we can really control is our actions in this moment. And even that might be a bit of a stretch if shakti decides otherwise |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 24 2010 2:07:54 PM |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 2:32:08 PM
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Yogi Bhajan said something like:-
'Some go & out & hustle to try to find their happpiness rather than just let God bring it to them through Meditation'
Or words to that effect.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5509973/Kundalini-Yoga
More Being rather than doing.Surrender, rather than resistance,attempts to try & control,i.e swing it your way, and manipulation.
I agree, though. Don't expect an outcome(whether it's the round of golf or whatever),even the imagined "worst", you know that sinking feeling when something does'nt work out that you probably begged should, and then you'll never be dissapointed. |
Edited by - Akasha on Jun 24 2010 2:57:49 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 5:55:50 PM
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i totally agree with that carson.
only thing is, its so much harder to live like that than just read the words!
its hard enough for me to have enough faith, and its exponentially harder telling your partner that, "everything is going to work out" ... it sounds like you've had experience with that?
I keep up my practice like clockwork... with my partner and i living far away for the time being, and my work at a standstill (self employed), its about the only thing i actually have!
Who knew life could be this hard for this long? I pray for a light at the end of the tunnel, because even peace and bliss cannot fulfill my material responsibilities. 
Any thoughts on that? Maybe some of you have been in similar situations before?
xx
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2010 : 11:03:42 AM
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Hey TTN and All
K. I will try to elaborate on what I am trying to say by giving you some personal examples of how this approach (non-approach ) is working for me.
For about 8 years I was self-employed (like you) as a musician and recording studio owner/sound engineer and was also selling drugs to try and make ends meet. This entire time I was in a LOT of debt and was not making much money. Every penny I earned was incredibly hard to come by and I was (literally) working 7 days a week, often putting in 20 hour days (no joke). This entire period of my life was incredibly stressful. I worried non-stop about making ends meet, and many months, ends didn't meet. Debt kept piling up and piling up....as did the stress and worry over money.
Eventually I ended up having to claim bankruptcy, close the studio, quit playing music, and find a "real" job. And even after finding a "real" job things did not get much better. I no longer had any debt (due to bankruptcy) but I still found myself living paycheque to paycheque, never being able to put any money aside for emergencies/holidays/raining days/etc.
Then I started AYP and my perspective gradually began to change. I chose to make a conscious effort to stop worrying about money and whether or not I would be able to make ends meet at the end of the month and began to learn how to surrender and leave the finer details up to Source/God/Self/All.
What happened was amazing. Even though I had chose to quit selling drugs (due to having moral issues with it spawned by my new yoga practice) I found that I always had just enough money to have everything I (and my wife) needed and then a few dollars extra to go out for dinner or a movie or something. This was new for me. For the past 10 years or so, EVERY penny was budgetted and every dollar accounted for, with no extra for "frills". But the less I worried about money, where it was coming from, and if we would have enough, the more I found we had! AND I wasn't living my life all stressed out about if I would have a roof over my head next month.
As my practice progressed, and as I deepened my ability to surrender, even more changes began to happen. My wife got pregnant and we decided we needed to buy a house. Neither of us were able to qualify for a mortgage (she didn't make much $ at her job and I had already claimed bankruptcy) but I chose to set an intention that we be able to find a way to buy a house and then chose to release that intention into Silence. Sure enough, my parents decided they wanted to help us get into a house and my Dad decided he was willing to co-sign on the mortgage (I never asked them for this nor did I EVER expect this could be a possibility). At this point I could see thoughts like: "We'll never be able to make ends meet when we own our own house" (we'd been renting for a long time and had always had roomies or lived in a suited place so our bills were always shared) and "having a baby is going to be so expensive, there's no way we are going to be able to afford our new lifestyle" but I chose not to attach to these thoughts and instead chose to release them into Silence and let go. Here is what happened:
First off, I received a scholarship to get my Hatha Yoga certification which meant I would be able to teach AYP out of a yoga studio and potentially make more money without having to spend the $3000 it would normally take to get a yoga certification. Then, we moved into our new house at the end of Feb this year. Our rent/mortgage went up more the $300 a month from what it was before. All the bills now had to be paid by us (no bill sharing) not to mention having to pay property taxes etc now. I also had to buy a new vehicle that a carseat could safely strap into and wasn't on the verge of breaking down sometime before the baby came in May. I had lots of stressful thoughts arise around this time, but each time they did I chose to release them into Silence and chose not to worry... surrendering my situation to the Divine.
After one month in the new house I checked our bank account to see if there would be enough money for the rent/bills etc and I found that we somehow had more then $1000 extra. This money was there because of teaching AYP classes and I had totally forgotten about getting paid for this. And it made a huge difference. After two months I had enough money saved to outright buy a new car (paid for in cash). Granted it wasn't anything spectacular, but it was safe, it fit the whole family including our dogs, and I bought it from a mechanic so it was mechanically very sound. AND we were still able to pay all the bills that month. Then the baby arrived, costing a fair amount of money for several reasons, and I had just recently turned one of my AYP classes into a "by donation" class (all donations going to charity) so I wasn't making as much money teaching yoga. And my wife was now on maternity leave so she was making 45% less money every month. I saw more stressful thoughts arising about making ends meet and again chose to set an intention of having enough money to survive and released it into Silence.
Then, just last week I had a college football coach from Arizona send me an email saying he was sending 5 of his boys (from his football team) to Calgary for a 12 week training program this summer, and that he wanted me to give them 12 private yoga lessons while they were here.... an extra $1200 in my pocket, paid in advance. Two days later I got an email from a Swiss family of 4, living in the UK, who said they were coming to Calgary for a 3 month vacation, and that they wanted a once a week private yoga lesson while they were here....another $1200 in my pocket, paid in advance. None of this money was expected in any way.
So you see, what I find, is that as long as I choose to set reasonable intentions, releasing them into Silence and choosing to actively surrender, Silence/Source/God/All seems to fill in all the blanks. Not necessarily how I want, but exactly how I need.
Not sure if this will help, but I hope it does.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 25 2010 12:47:31 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2010 : 1:51:21 PM
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Upon reading my above post I feel I should mention something. Surrendering doesn't guarantee everything is going to "work out" (as you have pictured it). I could very well run out of money tomorrow, especially if I am negligent in my perceived and actual duties or if Life requires that in order for me to continue to grow spiritually. What surrendering DOES guarantee is a perspective from which the mental suffering around our physical conditions is limited. At least that is my experience.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 25 2010 1:56:58 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2010 : 2:37:03 PM
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Great Post Carson!
Thanks for taking the time to write in such detail.
A brief account of my own version of this story:
After being initiated in the spiritual world, i knowing nothing of yoga of any sort, I set out with total confidence in the divine. Much like you found, I always had enough, as long as i was following my bhakti (even though i didn't know what bhakti was ).
My life was exciting and full of growing and learning. Hey, it still is!
I always had enough, but never any more than that. There were some things that i longed to purchase that i knew would make my life easier. But i always had the feeling the the divine was withholding certain things from me for growth purposes. I was okay with that, and i "knew" that things would be ok.
After a few rough lessons in survival i kept growing and coming out on top. Some of these situations would probably make a grown man cry. But i had all the faith in the world.
And then one day, all the rules changed. Not only was i not making ends meet, it seemed like the divine was up to all sorts of tricks to make sure i wouldn't "get by". After about two years of this, the situation culminated in a total breakdown. I mean, i just had nothing left. At all. And you know what? The more i reflect on it, the more i realize this was the plan. After i "died" i didn't think i'd ever be whole again. But i'm here again, stronger than ever.
Now, in the end, I was able to get through this time by leaning on very generous friends and family. And here i am today, trying to again establish the feeling of living a magical life. I think that was kind of the whole point.
Several year's ago, a "voice" from the Silence came to me and said something like: "I won't ever let you go hungry, but there are things you must experience. Don't worry"
And indeed, i've never gone hungry. I've been close! But She never broke that promise!
So i definitely understand your second post, above, about the reality of surrendering and "working out".
But i feel better than ever now. I have my faith back, and i'm just trying to live a magical life again, just like way back when i was the "Fool" and didn't know the world. Well, now i know the world and my bhakti is stronger than ever. And my bhakti is going to take me where i want to go!
Thanks again for your inspiring words Carson. And |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2010 : 3:31:25 PM
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Have you read Byron Katie's "Loving What Is"?
Love!
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doing this will make me happy
