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This distinctive Buddhist orientation towards meditation can be summed up concisely. Meditation consists of two aspects or components. The first, called shamatha in Sanskrit, is the step by step development of mental and physical calmness. The second, vipashyana, is the step by step heightening of awareness, sensitivity and observation. These two components complement each other and should be practiced simultaneously. Some techniques develop primarily calming, others primarily clarity, still others both equally. It is of utmost importance, however, that one component not be enhanced at the expense of the other. To do so is no longer meditation. Tranquility at the expense of awareness is dozing; awareness at the expense of calm is 'tripping.'

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Originally posted by Christi

Hi Ruben,

There are two different kinds of vipassana meditation and they are very different. The kind that you are referring to (www.dharma.org) is a style made popular by S.N. Goenka and comes from the Burmese Buddhist tradition. As I mentioned above it is really a very slow body sweeping practice, involving the crown chakra at an early stage. If you go on the retreat you will learn all about it.

The other style of vipassana meditation is a form of self-inquiry practice. This is the one that I have combined with AYP practice without any problems.

The Goenka style vipassana technique is very much an energetic practice, and activates kundalini in a powerful way. If you were to replace AYP deep meditation with this practice, then you are effectively replacing a pure meditation practice with an energy practice. What is more, you would be combining an energy practice which directly activates the crown chakra, with some very powerful AYP kundalini stimulation practices such as spinal breathing, mudras, bandhas, bastrika etc.

That is why I would say do one or the other, but don't combine the two. Certainly don't replace Deep meditation with Goenka style vipassana in an integrated AYP yoga practice.

Christi

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Thanks a lot for this clarification! It makes a lot of sense. I mistakenly put the dharma link. Actually, the vipassana 10 day course which I have in mind is the self-inquiry practice (http://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/...ter/nl.shtml)

In this case, would you advise implementing both deep meditation (AYP) and self-inquiry meditation (vipassana)?

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Originally posted by Christi

Hi Ruben,

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Thanks a lot for this clarification! It makes a lot of sense. I mistakenly put the dharma link. Actually, the vipassana 10 day course which I have in mind is the self-inquiry practice (http://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/...ter/nl.shtml)

In this case, would you advise implementing both deep meditation (AYP) and self-inquiry meditation (vipassana)?

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The website that you mention here is the website of the organisation which teaches Burmese vipassana meditation. Click on the website that you posted a link for just above and you will see the name Goenka about 4 lines down. It is not a self-inquiry practice but is a body sweeping practice, moving your attention around your body slowly as you bring your awareness to the sensations of each part separately. This is the organisation and practice that I have been talking about in this thread (Goenka vipassana) and which I would not recommend integrating with AYP. On the retreat you will also be taught two other practices, anapanasati (breathing meditation) and metta bhavana (a heart opening practice), but most of the focus is on the body sweeping practice.

The only exception to the advice that I am giving to not integrate the two practices is that I would say that once the crown chakra is open and stable then there is no reason not to integrate this (Goenka) vipassana practice and AYP if someone wanted to do so. It is really a crown chakra issue, and nothing else.

The only problem then would come from the other end. Goenka vipassana is very retreat based, and many Goenka retreat centres do not let anyone practice if they are combining their style of vipassana meditation with any other kind of spiritual practices (including AYP). This condition applies whilst in a retreat situation, or off it (whilst living your daily life). So getting on-going support from the Goenka vipassana side could be difficult.

Getting support from the AYP side would be easy, as it is open source.

If you are actually wanting to learn the self-inquiry vipassana practice, then you would have to learn it through a different organisation and different teachers. This practice involves inquiring into the nature of phenomena as they arise during meditation, specifically with regard to three conditions which are: being devoid of lasting satisfaction, impermanence and being devoid of self-nature. This practice can much more easily be integrated with AYP. As you probably know, self-inquiry is an important part of AYP and comes more to the fore as the witness rises naturally due to meditation and other practices.

I would agree with Adamant, that if you are going to combine these two practices, then it is best to add (self-inquiry) vipassana on to AYP (5 or 10 minutes after DM), rather than replacing the Deep meditation practice.

Vipassana meditation (of the inquiry kind) is really a combination of meditation and inquiry, so you would need to watch out for the extra energetic releases that doubling up practices could bring about. With careful self-pacing you will be absolutely fine.


Christi

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Originally posted by adamantclearlight

Hi Ruben, Don't jump to the conclusion that the criticisms of Goenka are justified based on what Christi said. He's merely warning against premature crown opening within the context of an AYP practice, not criticizing Goenka. I agree with that. Traditional vipassana requires strict retreats over the course of about 8 months of total retreat time. Otherwise you will get caught in an in-between or it won't work at all. Goenka's version of vipassana is very wonderful. It appears to be a very fast path of purification. If you are doing AYP, then 5-10 mins of dissolving inputs from the skandhas into awareness is very powerful for the two session per day crowd.

I highly recommend you read Daniel Ingram's writings:

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml

Of special interest is his word .doc on vipassana. It only two pages and is a very concise instruction for an add on post-AYP Deep Meditation.

Adamant

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Originally posted by Sparkle

Hi Ruben
Thanks for starting this thread,it's been very interesting.

I would like to express thanks to adamantclearlight also for your contributions. I found myself nodding in agreement to everything you said.

I actively participate in mindfulness and have a particular interest in it's development as a clinically proven system which is now available in some universities on their masters programmes.

Even so, I still find myself staying with AYP as my core meditation practice and then using mindfulness as my primary form of self-inquiry.
For me the two match perfectily and AYP, as has been pointed out, is very good at developing Shamatha or Inner Silence.

Personally I feel the general mindfulness movement falls short on this aspect and the gap is very adequately filled by AYP, for me at least, with a busy day and limited time for a lot of practice.

This is not a view held, however, by my mindfulness friends, but each to his/her own.

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Originally posted by Ruben
Could you help me be clear about why repeated Vipassana retreats seem to be kept for those who choose to restrict themselves to Vipassana meditation only (not practicing AYP eg.)?

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Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Essentially, when one is pursuing only insight practice, one's chakras and channels have not been softened by yoga.

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If you take that time to soften the channels, then the insight will naturally happen.

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Insight glimpses just make you more hungry for more insight.

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Waiting between retreats is awful and the mind becomes a torture chamber.

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My personal practice is extensive and most people cannot do what I do, unless one can spend at least 30 hrs/week practicing.

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... Daniel Ingram's 2-page Vipassana instruction booklet. Reading his book on the map of the path is very instructive. I've never seen anyone attempt something so thorough. His free book is an enormous contribution to our way of life. And if you read his book, he admits that he wishes, in hindsight, that he would have spent more time allowing for bliss states. I echo that forcefully.

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Originally posted by adamantclearlight

Hi Ruben, Good gurus are strict. If you want to take refuge with a particular guru, you have to be prepared to follow their rules. If you don't, often they will think you are not serious. Dharma teachers are often very committed and have years of retreat time.

That rule requiring practicing no other meditation between retreats seems to be about keeping people on their course. It's about keeping people on a predictable course. They may think there are good reasons for that, but I can't agree. Disregard that.

Adamant

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Originally posted by adamantclearlight

Hi Ruben, Retraction alert! You sparked my interest in Goenka and I bought "The Discourse Summaries" which are the lectures given each day of the 10-day retreat. This guy is great. His exposition of the dharma is par excellence. He recommends one 10-day retreat per year and two one hour sessions per day. His rule about not practicing any other technique between sessions is advisory, just like Yogani's. The purpose is so that one will not get involved in too many practices and get no where. All gurus tell you that progress cannot be made, unless you dedicate to one practice. It's just common sense. Obviously, there's no limitation on you to explore. His view is strict non-sectarianism, which means he's not asking for devotion. But if you begin the practice, he is recommending diligence and consistency. Any sports trainer will tell you that.

I want to emphasize that Goenka's teaching is very profound. It doesn't get better than that. I have enormous respect for him. All his comments are spot on. His shamatha technique of breath awareness is very clearly described and put into perspective of insight into the nature of the mind-body compound. His vipassana practice of "body sweeping," as Christi described it, is great. I have practiced that for years (that's what my granddaddy taught me). The "dark night" woes I described and shared with Daniel Ingram would not happen here, because there is balanced use of shamatha with breath awareness.

The worry about "premature crown chakra opening" is something dear Christi and I must respectfully disagree about. Look, the crown chakra is a worry if you have wrong view about impermanence. And again, shamatha will balance that the uncomfortable feelings that arise. Besides, the crown chakra is your friend. That is our connection to pure wisdom. When that opens, it is wisdom and insight. Other than that, one can proceed to the final goal without ever once doing anything with any channel or chakra.

I also respectfully disagree with Christi that investigation into impermanent nature of body-mind phenonmena is not meditation. Christi has his own bias toward Christianity, Yoga, bliss consciousness and Self. My bias is toward the dharma, which is no bias, no opinion and no reliance on any state of being as a so-called "ultimate truth." The only truth of the dharma is that one may be liberated from conditioned existence. That only happens by releasing one's attachments to both gross and subtle sensations of pain and pleasure, and to false conceptions and sensations both gross and subtle of "I-ness." So, Ruben, you should be aware that here is where the Buddha's teaching diverges in a 90 degree angle from those teachings that promote bliss consciousness and "the Self." The teaching of the Buddha is not about bliss consciousness. "Bliss" described by the Buddha is just awareness that one is free from cyclic existence; that is the meaning of liberation, no more habit conditioning.

Also, I find the "noting" practice emphasized in the prominent Theravada teachings is a misunderstanding of the mindfulness training. Mental noting is a lot of distraction. Awareness is much faster than that, and one can make a nonverbal mental note (by simply noticing sensation) much faster than one can verbalize mentally. That is what the Buddha meant by "knowing I breath long" and whatnot. Goenka's is the simplest method there is and is better than what is described by Daniel Ingram, because it is simpler.

Ruben, if you are interested in this practice, then do the 10-day retreat. Follow it up with six-months of sustained two sessions per day in your work-life as that system describes. That should be sufficient time for you to evaluate the path. If you have problems then reconsider. But (being the dharma devotee that I am), I wish I had found these teachings earlier.

IMHO, this is THE BEST Theravada exposition of the Dharma I have ever seen.

Remember, the Buddha says in the Satipathana Sutta, that one can obtain realization in one week. The Buddha was not worried about premature crown openings, and neither should you.

Thank you for sharing this teacher with me, Ruben. I'm sold.

Adamant

P.S. The "body-sweeping" method used here is just a touch different from Mahamudra, except, in Mahamudra one maintains sensation awareness over the whole body at once and in space all around (with no focus, aka space-like awareness). The fruit of Mahamudra is a deep contact with interdependence. Whereas, in Goenka's method one just focuses on the sensations in a small area of the body from the head, slowly scanning down to the feet. This is fine, and as one gains skill in the Goenka method, I would think one would find it more effortless not to scan and just to rest the awareness throughout the body. That is, as long as one has gained the skill in meditation sufficient to maintain mindfulness of the whole body at once.

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Also, I find the "noting" practice emphasized in the prominent Theravada teachings is a misunderstanding of the mindfulness training. Mental noting is a lot of distraction. Awareness is much faster than that, and one can make a nonverbal mental note (by simply noticing sensation) much faster than one can verbalize mentally.

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