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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 29 2009 : 6:28:16 PM
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quote:
emc wrote:
YogaIsLife, oh dear! How are you coping with it?
You mean "momentary enlightenment"?
Well, what can I say? I had never heard of enlightenment then, all I know is that something opened up really and I felt a deep connection with the whole, and a deep peace (what here is called silence) permeating every moment, underneath and between all the normal ups and downs of life. It was just there, present. It lasted some 3 months. And then it closed up again...it was some 9 years ago!
It is nothing to worry about really. Life just goes on, as always...But Adyashanti is right, if you had an awakening you will never be the same, even if you don't understand it. You are forever touched and you know what they mean by "life as it is meant to be lived". In that sense the first years after it "faded" can be quite hard because you suddenly lived in "heaven" and you seemingly come back to "hell" without any apparent logical reason!
I think it was Pascal that said: "the heart has reasons that reason (i.e. mind) knows nothing of".
I've learnt a lot since, had some hard time, but finally found yoga and meditation and that was my "salvation". It gave me a center again, a framework to understand all this and work from, and I "think" I am "getting back on track". But truly, we are never "out of track". It is always awareness or the whole or whatever you want to call it (what we are) getting to know and explore itself (ourselves) as it always has been! It is a continuous unfolding, a beautiful dance.
For me is simple: I think more had to be included. In truth, all must be included.
But hey, thanks for asking! It is always hard to share/explain these things, as you might imagine.
All the best! |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Nov 29 2009 6:31:31 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 01:39:41 AM
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Hi emc,
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Kirtanman, I see we have different terminology:
emc: first awakening, glimpses, wobbling, not 24/7
kirtanman: realization
emc: realization, self-realization aka enlightenment 24/7
kirtanman: enlightenment
I would never call myself realized or enlightened, only having awakenings/glimpses going on. But I'd say you are pretty newly realized/enlightened since a few weeks back! 
Per your definition, yes.
After reading Adya's book though, the cycle is fairly clear, I'd say ... and an experiencing many of us describe, have gone through, or are going through:
*There's no sense of self, other than mistaken concept ("ego dream only". prior to any awakening).
*Experiencing that true nature is not limited to body-mind or concept (initial awakening/realization, experience{s}).
*Repeated awakening/realization experiences/phases, in which we "wobble in and out" of knowing true nature at times, behaving from ego (even when we know ego is illusion), and going through systemic changes and purification .... which process can last several years.
Adyashanti's lasted roughly seven years, by the way.
*This is followed by a final awakening, whether initiated by an experience ... or, just an awareness that the gravity of the ego finally appears to have subsided ... which is what I've been calling "enlightenment" ... and which I believe both Adyashanti and Yogani call "enlightenment", too.
Though, as Adya says (and I agree) .... the future cannot be known.
In the closing interview (at the end of End of Your World) ... Adya mentions that it's been years since egoic thoughts have had gravity ... but that he still cannot comment regarding what might happen the "next moment" ... no one can.
This is simply accurate; anything "not now" is imagination.
However, he says that, as Nisargadatta also said, that untrue thoughts arise ... but they're seen through essentially immediately ... kind of like one motion.
That's basically the experience here, for what it's worth.
quote:
I was not from the start aiming my posts at you, but as a general discussion, cause I know many who are where you are now. But since you are engaging in the discussion I started answering your posts in particular. I'd say one is still "newly realized" after having been where you are for say one or two perhaps even three years.
Okay.
quote:
That's mostly when people who have come where you are make their own homepage or start a mission, start having satsangs, travel around spreading the message "If I did it, you can do it too". And some of them are doing it very prematurely with a lot of ego structures left that others can see, but not they themselves, and people don't dare to tell them so. I'm not saying you are doing this, I'm just discussing a phenomenon I have noticed, and sometimes expemlifying with what you are writing.
What I'm truly not seeing, is:
This still sounds like you're discussing people at the beginning of the first set of realizations ... not after the years of "wobbling" as you call it, has subsided.
This isn't about me; I'm just trying to get where you actually see the set of people described above, as fitting.
If someone still has a major degree of egoic structure/self-reference/"need to teach" and so on .... that sounds much closer to the beginning of the shifting from ego-life to ego-free life (i.e. in the period that, for Adya, lasted seven years .... this group sounds like they would be near the beginning of that phase .... if in it, at all).
What I'm saying that I am experiencing is what happened with Adya at the *end* of that seven year period.
(Said to be clear on what I'm *saying*, per terminology, what happens in which phases, what I'm saying my experiencing is, and so forth .... not said as another mention of the experiencing itself.)
And, very importantly: not said with any sense of importance about it; words can be very occluding; it's not pertinent whether anyone perceives me as enlightened .... including me; all that matters is experiencing enlightenment for yourself {anyone reading}. If my words have helped this, that's good.
Adya mentions in the book this exact dynamic, regarding final awakening/enlightenment (not initial realization) .... that there's a sense of "missionary zeal", based on the sense that "this is possible for everyone".
That's exactly what I've been feeling.
The difference from the state you describe is that it's not driven by egoic structures (which are somehow about the one expressing), and are experienced as aspects of the flow .... literally.
It truly is an "enlightenment milestone", in experiencing here .... and I'm tossing it out as one, that people can check their own experiencing regarding, either now, or when they feel they're enlightened:
When ego-structures do dissolve, the directionality shifts from being about "me" to being about others ... simply and actually.
It's not an "altruistic" thing at all; it's more: when illusions of unwholeness fall away, there's a natural movement to connect and uplift ... in a natural, symbiotic way .... the way that all life lives ... except for the ego.
Adya says that this lasted for him for two years or so, then started to fade ... and is now completely gone (he started teaching at the beginning of that phase, and is still teaching .... and so, not all who start to teach upon enlightenment are doing so prematurely, or with debilitating levels of ego-structures in place, I'd say).
.... and don't worry (All) .... I won't be bugging you for the next two years!
There's "willingness here" to learn to be clear on the best ways/times/places to say certain things .... and, as I'm sure we've all experienced:
No one truly loves evangelism except the evangelist ... and there's *zero* interest here, in being one of those, I assure you.
A couple of great Adya quotes I read in End Of Your World:
"Evaluation of other people’s non-division is not helpful. The only thing that matters is where you are. In any moment, are you experiencing and acting from division, or are you experiencing and acting from oneness? Which is it?”"
**
It is essential that an initial awakening isn’t owned or claimed --- that there’s no assumption of completion. Even though it may feel that the journey has ceased, it is important to realize that is is the old journey that has ceased, the journey toward that initial seeing, the journey where you didn’t have any consciousness of who and what you were. Now a new journey begins – the journey of expressing non-division at every level of your being. And this is a journey that may take years to complete itself.
**
I'm "good" with both of those quotes.
quote:
There's a sense of having all ego structures running out like sand... and now, if you read my posts again - That's when the journey really starts! That's when the ego gets so sneaky you won't notice it - like a needle in a soft banana - cause you don't experience anyhthing else than that you're beyond it! That's why many teachers end up in situations like the described above - where the only reference left is the reactions of people around them - from within, it's only lala-land and no problems! See now, what I mean?
I'm pretty sure that I do.
quote:
Your first reaction to the example was also "most people are playing "fight the teacher", as an acting out of their own psychology". That's what I said is the most common response in those situations! See! You examplify it exactly the way I describe! And it might very well BE people's own psychology - OR it can be an impurity still sneaking around in the realized/enlightened person, which is sensed very much only on a certain energetic level. It's like we have an "ego-detector", because, as Yogani pointed out - Truth never brings negativity. And my point is - as opposed to yours - it absolutely does NOT have to be groce things like sexual/emotional abuse or the like. It can be very, very subtle, as subtle as putting oneself on a high horse, having the sense "I" can help others, or perhaps to be a "host" somehow able to invite people (although the invitation is always free)... 
"Got it."
And, it's "all good" very literally .... including this conversation.
It seems that "conditioning there" kind of inherently presumes fault (or at least, tends to suspect fault) with the teacher, rather than people who become angry with the teacher.
"Conditioning here" has experienced .... for many years .... not just a few weeks ..... that most teachers are simply trying to do the best they can, and that the angry, vocal minority tends to, in my experiencing, being projecting their own issues on the teacher or leader of a given group.
We've seen this throughout history, with respect to nations, cultures, political systems, and so on ..... "it's his/her/their fault! Not mine/ours!"
I don't know that I've ever once thought of this dynamic with respect to myself as a leader, or teacher .... (I've had both roles in the past; neither, currently) .... always as a member of a given group, just observing what's going on.
And again: the reason I referred to the more gross types of harmful behavior a teacher can engage in .... is because, in my experience, the "subtle" ones can (rather obviously, I'd think) ... be the imagination of the people who are finding fault with the teacher.
If the teacher isn't doing anything obviously wrong/harmful/counterproductive to teaching .... how can one discern the teacher is doing anything worthy of serious criticism or intervention (such as contacting the teacher's former master, as you outlined a couple of posts back) ... and more importantly: *why* would such contact be needed?
Why not just (literally) leave that teacher in peace?
I'm just looking at this primarily from a different angle, it seems; you've apparently experienced the "actual issue" being primarily with the teacher (?), whereas I've seen it being with a small group of angry people (who usually are "angry people", who seem to be basically waiting for a reason {in their minds} *to* be angry ... and as soon as the teacher does something than *can* be construed as impertinent ... out come the big guns, and the threats and the tantrums.
That's not to say that there aren't certain teachers who do more harm than good ... I'm talking about the good teachers of the world .... who still seem to attract this same percentage of very angry people (a very small percentage; usually 1 percent or less of total members/students ... but 1 percent can paint a very dark picture, if they wish ... and they all seem to do so).
I just wonder:
Why the compulsion to "paint" at all?
Why not accept reality, and move on?
If you consider how much ego is usually necessary to construct such a scenario ... it seems like a lot, at least to me:
1. The teacher must not only be evaluated, but evaluated as doing something significantly wrong.
2. The seriousness of the infraction (outside of the "harmful scenarios" outlined above) must be created in mind .... I'm referring to things here that most people would not be upset about .... where most people would say "I dunno; that teacher really didn't do it for me; maybe next week we can go to a movie instead" ... yet some people go into: "They're not realized! I must bring justice!" ... etc. etc.
3. The motivation to act, and the action, based on these negative feelings, energies must take place.
I'm truly willing to see a different view of this, if there be such .... it sounds like we're "on the same page" as far as protecting the innocent .... we just have different experiences regarding where the innocent usually seems to reside.
quote:
I'm very glad you are reading "The end of your world"! You are beyond the wobbling (hopefully permanently) but it will probably give you a good understanding of what it's like wobbling between the place that sounds very much like where you are now (perhaps a precursor place of some sort, but how shall we ever know, beacause it's a place that is described exactly the way you describe it), the place where the ego has run out fully as sand and is totally transparent... and then again... contracting back and *peekaboo* it's there again!
Well, I have no qualms about sharing/discussing that if it does happen .... so we shall see.
quote:
Bernie always says: "emc, you're living in two realities - get Real!". That's what it feels like. I'm surprised this mind is not psychotic yet.
Do you get what he means by this?
quote:
I understand that you are putting your points forward in two different topics. Just for your info, I have not read the other topic with Christi and T_I, so I'm only following this one. Perhaps we are crossposting some points or you have to repeat a lot? I don't know.
Cool; no worries ... and not cross-posting much; at first, at least ... most of the "posters" in both thread seemed to be the same ... so if you're "just here", that's fine.
Plus, that thread seems to be just about running its course, anyway, as far as "major active dialog" .... though "ya never know".
They seem to be following this one, and I thought you might be following that one, too .... so, hence those comments.
Thanks for the clarification (about which threads you're reading).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 11:08:35 PM
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Hey All,
Per the theme of this thread, I found an interesting excerpt in Be As You Are (Teachings Of Sri Ramana Maharshi), at the beginning of Chapter Two --
"Sri Ramana occasionally indicated that there are three levels of spiritual aspirants.
The most advanced realize the Self as soon as they are told about its true nature.
Those in the second class reflect on it for some time before Self-awareness becomes firmly established.
Those in the third category are less fortunate, since they usually need many years of intensive spiritual practice to achieve the goal of Self-realization.
Sri Ramana sometimes used a metaphor of gunpowder to describe the three levels:
Gunpowder ignites with a single spark.
Charcoal needs the application of heat for a short time.
Wet coal needs to dry out and heat up over a long period of time before it will begin to burn.
For the benefit of those in the top two categories, Sri Ramana taught that the Self alone exists and that it can be directly and consciously experienced merely by ceasing to pay attention to the wrong ideas we have about ourselves.
These wrong ideas he collectively called the 'not-Self' since they are an imaginary accretion of wrong notions and misperceptions which effectively veil the true experience of the real Self.
The principle misperception is the idea that the Self is limited to the body and the mind.
As soon as one ceases to imagine that one is an individual person, inhabiting a particular body, the whole superstructure of wrong ideas collapses and is replaced by a conscious and permanent awareness of the real Self.
At this level of teaching there is no question of effort or practice. All that is required is an understanding that the Self is not a goal to be attained, it is merely the awareness that prevails when all the limiting ideas about the not-Self have been discarded."
This three-tiered model is also outlined in the Shiva Sutras and the Yoga Sutras.
The Shiva Sutras are divided into three sections, each one corresponding to one of these levels.
They start with the highest one first, and the aspirant starts there ... and reads/listens until he or she finds a comfortable starting point (possibly in consultation with inner guru or qualified outer guru or teacher).
And so - the three groups, per the Shiva Sutras are:
Shambhavopaya .... The Way of Thought-Free Awareness
(aka The Divine Means)
1.1 Caitanyamatma - The Self is Liberated Awareness
The related Iccha (Will-based; Awareness) yoga is based around simply sustaining awareness, and returning to awareness if/when one notices attention departing from original awareness of Self.
AYP Books/Lessons
Samyama
Deep Meditation
Eight Limbs of Yoga
Shaktopaya .... The Way of Mind
(aka The Empowered Means)
2.1 Cittam Mantrah - Mind is Mantra
The related Jnana (mind-based) yoga involves inquiry-based practices which help to experience the gap between all perceptions and/or to take one into silent awareness via inquiry and/or attention.
Basically, mind and attention-based practices.
AYP Books/Lessons
Self-Inquiry
Eight Limbs of Yoga
Anavopaya ... The Way of the Body
(aka The Individual Means)
3.1 Cittam Atma - (Limited) Mind is the Self
The related Kriya (Action) Yoga involves physical/action practices - practices making use of the body, and physical action, such as:
AYP Books/Lessons
Deep Meditation
Spinal Breathing Pranayama
Tantra
Asanas, Mudras & Bandhas
Diet, Shatkarmas & Amaroli
Bhakti & Karma Yoga
Eight Limbs of Yoga
And so ... this, in my opinion offers the opportunity for some major clarification and potential increase in enlightenment-related efficiency, for us all:
1. Many practitioners may be able to enjoy enlightenment much sooner we realized was likely, prior to this point (those who are readier can focus on the higher levels).
And Please Note: I'm not attempting to "override" AYP, in any way ... if Yogani sees any of this as problematic, I of course invite him to say so.
I'm purely "thinking" (typing) "out loud"; I've been mulling this over, and researching it for a while ... and sharing this is also one of the reasons I started this thread.
2. There may be no further need for the "awareness vs. practices" discussions, and any related confusion some pracitioners may have had.; this three-tiered model is actually well-established (it's used in Kabbalah and Gnostic Christian Kabbalah; other systems, too, I'm sure).
3. It seems fairly well-established that these three levels of readiness are themselves well-established (they've been around for thousands of years, and are in use all over the world) .... thus alleviating concerns held by some AYPers, regarding the potential harm which might come from focus on awareness-centric (dropping all untrue ideas, learning to sustain thoughtless awareness), and/or inquiry-centric (self-inquiry) practice structures.
IMPORTANT NOTE:
This three-tiered model/methodology was developed in the days when the oral tradition (working with a guru, master or teacher) was predominant. Certain schools (Kashmir Shaivism) felt that providing the information, and letting aspirants determine their own readiness levels (in conjunction with outer guru as needed; inner guru, certainly) ... whereas others emphasized the necessity of an external guru.
AYP, as most of us know .... advises the combination of utilizing the lessons, in combination with inner guru (intuition) .... and so, is probably more suited to the self-pacing nature of viewing practices according to readiness level.
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- I do see this as having direct correspondences to "levels of enlightened consciousness", per this thread's title; I'll plan to elaborate on that, in the near future.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 30 2009 11:19:15 PM |
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Richvtx1800
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2010 : 9:57:00 PM
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Interesting forum/topic. I have been meditating awhile and am prone to having experiences, but don't know how to interpret most of them.
My most recent one I found on the net and it is exactly what happened to me. I would be very interested to know what you guys think of this because you sound very polished.
In October of 2009 I decided once again it was time to step up my meditation practice. I started with an apple detox, eating a minimum of 6 apples a day and drinking 100 ounces of spring water. This always seems to get me into a higher gear as I prepare to do a personal spiritual retreat at home. Combined with no TV, Radio, Music, or Media of any kind. Like running in to me instead of away from me. I started with two 1 hour periods of meditation a day.
I have recently adapted to what is called the Egyptian chair pose, instead of using cushions on the floor. Sitting in a chair with back erect but not against the back of the chair, because I do not want to pinch even sightly the channels where energy flows up the spine.
I decided on a new form of meditation for me, which was coming intuitively. Just sit do not move a finger, an eyelid, a toe or in other words no movement allowed as if someone had a gun to my head and said if you move your dead. I found this helps focusing because you then are not aware of anything other than your thoughts, because that is all that can move.
Now thoughts are like guests they check in and they check out, so what I am looking for are the spaces in between those guests. It is imperative that I do not use any negative terms to add to the energy of those DAMN THOUGHTS, I'M THINKING AGAIN.
In a few days I notice, hey I'm empty, my body feels like a hollow statue and there is this total awareness of everything but not one thought in my brain, this feels unique, and then there was bliss. My thinking busy mind had stopped totally,completely and there was a big presence aware of the totality of me that could see the little presence that was what I was before this moment.
A few days later, a repeat of the same experience brought me to a dot that turned into a star, that I followed into swirling black hole, where I would experience short visits into different dimensions.
A few days later again I was through the black hole and in a cave where J.C. was standing. This was my first feelings of why? I did not expect to see him because I was not looking for him. Key=no expectations.
The next day there he was again in the cave but pointing his left arm to an exit into the light. The synchronicity for the next week was almost a comedy, I would wake up in the morning, with something on my mind and the phone would ring and that person would start a conversation about what was on my mind. This was only happening all day long for about a week. I decided I better ground myself a bit so I went out and had a cheeseburger, it worked, things went back to normal.
Since then I had the urge to turn into a vegetarian, and went to 2 hours, then 3 and now 4 hours day of meditation a day. I had a hard time tracking down an experience such as this but I found it. It appears to be a marked spot on the path in a lot of meditation paths the Taoists call it the "Crystal Cave" and the Hindus call it the "Cave Of Brahma" etc, but you pass though the black hole to get there. And this is what that means.
"The brain becomes like a temple where the Enlightenment consciousness awakens. This awakening of Enlightenment is seated in the pineal gland, the Cave of Brahma, the House of God, where the Enlightened state is activated and anchored. That means that this state of Enlightenment now becomes permanent, and you can begin to experience God as both form and formless. You may also realize that you have never been separate from the Great Mahavakya, I AM THAT I AM. Even though your mind and emotions may appear separate, you begin to realize that no one can ever really separate themselves from Spirit."
a quote by
Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath
see a video of this experience at
http://whoheals.com/evolution-of-the-brain/
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2010 : 12:16:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Richvtx1800
Interesting forum/topic. I have been meditating awhile and am prone to having experiences, but don't know how to interpret most of them.
My most recent one I found on the net and it is exactly what happened to me. I would be very interested to know what you guys think of this because you sound very polished.
In October of 2009 I decided once again it was time to step up my meditation practice. I started with an apple detox, eating a minimum of 6 apples a day and drinking 100 ounces of spring water. This always seems to get me into a higher gear as I prepare to do a personal spiritual retreat at home. Combined with no TV, Radio, Music, or Media of any kind. Like running in to me instead of away from me. I started with two 1 hour periods of meditation a day.
I have recently adapted to what is called the Egyptian chair pose, instead of using cushions on the floor. Sitting in a chair with back erect but not against the back of the chair, because I do not want to pinch even sightly the channels where energy flows up the spine.
I decided on a new form of meditation for me, which was coming intuitively. Just sit do not move a finger, an eyelid, a toe or in other words no movement allowed as if someone had a gun to my head and said if you move your dead. I found this helps focusing because you then are not aware of anything other than your thoughts, because that is all that can move.
Now thoughts are like guests they check in and they check out, so what I am looking for are the spaces in between those guests. It is imperative that I do not use any negative terms to add to the energy of those DAMN THOUGHTS, I'M THINKING AGAIN.
In a few days I notice, hey I'm empty, my body feels like a hollow statue and there is this total awareness of everything but not one thought in my brain, this feels unique, and then there was bliss. My thinking busy mind had stopped totally,completely and there was a big presence aware of the totality of me that could see the little presence that was what I was before this moment.
A few days later, a repeat of the same experience brought me to a dot that turned into a star, that I followed into swirling black hole, where I would experience short visits into different dimensions.
A few days later again I was through the black hole and in a cave where J.C. was standing. This was my first feelings of why? I did not expect to see him because I was not looking for him. Key=no expectations.
The next day there he was again in the cave but pointing his left arm to an exit into the light. The synchronicity for the next week was almost a comedy, I would wake up in the morning, with something on my mind and the phone would ring and that person would start a conversation about what was on my mind. This was only happening all day long for about a week. I decided I better ground myself a bit so I went out and had a cheeseburger, it worked, things went back to normal.
Since then I had the urge to turn into a vegetarian, and went to 2 hours, then 3 and now 4 hours day of meditation a day. I had a hard time tracking down an experience such as this but I found it. It appears to be a marked spot on the path in a lot of meditation paths the Taoists call it the "Crystal Cave" and the Hindus call it the "Cave Of Brahma" etc, but you pass though the black hole to get there. And this is what that means.
"The brain becomes like a temple where the Enlightenment consciousness awakens. This awakening of Enlightenment is seated in the pineal gland, the Cave of Brahma, the House of God, where the Enlightened state is activated and anchored. That means that this state of Enlightenment now becomes permanent, and you can begin to experience God as both form and formless. You may also realize that you have never been separate from the Great Mahavakya, I AM THAT I AM. Even though your mind and emotions may appear separate, you begin to realize that no one can ever really separate themselves from Spirit."
a quote by
Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath
see a video of this experience at
http://whoheals.com/evolution-of-the-brain/
Hi Rich :)
Thank you for this post. I really enjoyed reading it.
Glad to read that you met Jesus too.
I didn't know you had to pass through the black hole to get to the cave of Brahmin. I have never merged into the light but I see the light all the time above my head. There is a cave right below it, behind the third eye light. Perhaps if I were to merge into the light then I would go through the black hole first. I will have to try that.
It is encouraging to read about your extended meditation times and the Egyptian chair pose.
Thanks again for relating your experiences!
:)
TI |
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"Levels" & Models of Enlightened Consciousness
