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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 5:18:00 PM
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There is an Advaita Vedanta subforum, but there is no Madhyamaka forum?
Considering the fact that 600 years after Nagarjuna, Advaita Vedanta was created as a hybrid between Mahayana and Upanishadic thinking?
"The Essential Vedanta" by Eliot Deutsch, among other works, documents how the Vedantins from the ninth century looked back 600 years to ancient Nagarjuna and borrowed Mahayana ideas.
I thought Yogani was against a partisan belief system? At least Madhyamaka does not make any claims of reality... |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 10 2009 5:21:57 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 5:55:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
There is an Advaita Vedanta subforum, but there is no Madhyamaka forum?
Considering the fact that 600 years after Nagarjuna, Advaita Vedanta was created as a hybrid between Mahayana and Upanishadic thinking?
"The Essential Vedanta" by Eliot Deutsch, among other works, documents how the Vedantins from the ninth century looked back 600 years to ancient Nagarjuna and borrowed Mahayana ideas.
I thought Yogani was against a partisan belief system? At least Madhyamaka does not make any claims of reality...
Hi Alwayson:
The short answer is because this is a support forum for the AYP system of practices. Forum categories are selected for how they relate to the AYP system and what its practitioners are doing, not according to which tradition should be getting more visibility.
If Buddhist methods can be presented with clarity and relevance, with potential for clarifying or supplementing the scope of the AYP system, they are welcome to be discussed in the "other systems" forum category. You are free to open a topic on Madhyamaka in other systems.
There have been some concerns about the contentiousness and murkiness of some of the Buddhist discussions here in relation to the relative clarity of the AYP approach, so the question isn't whether Buddhist discussions deserve more forum visibility, but whether it might eventually become necessary to limit them so they will not overwhelm the entire forum.
Don't get me wrong, the Buddhist discussions have been welcome, informative and appreciated so far. But this isn't E-Sangha, you know. Buddhist-style discussions are not going to be permitted to dominate the AYP forums.
I think the present setup with the "other systems" category provides a reasonable vehicle for exploring the many systems of practice that are out there. Whether it works out in a balanced way over time in relation to the AYP forums' primary mission, we will have to see.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 6:43:44 PM
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So just to be clear, you are saying that AYP Practices follows Advaita Vedanta philosophy in the vein of Adi Shankara?
IMO, you can delete the rainbow body thread as it is admittedly very confusing.
Another buddhism thread with a LOT more clarity can always be started...if people want. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 10 2009 9:55:21 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 6:51:51 PM
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AYP doesn't pretend to follow ANY other system.
it is a system that was originated by Yogani after reading hundreds of books and practicing himself for many years. So it is based upon what he found to be effective, not on patterning from something else.
I don't know if I am right, but I thought the Advaita section was begun because of a large number of members posting on that subject. Many of them were already following the AYP methods, but there is no intentional connection between the two. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 9:02:57 PM
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Not being or non-being
"The best view is endowed with realization."
--Gongchig, Lord Jigten Sumgon |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 10 2009 9:09:51 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 9:45:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Yogani, you are right about the lack of clarity in the buddhism discussion.
IMO, you can delete the rainbow body thread as it is admittedly very confusing.
Another buddhism thread with a LOT more clarity can always be started...if people want.
Here is what I have observed.. not criticizing, just pointing something out as I have been observing for some time now....
The Buddhism threads are always started with clarity, however, there are so many different paths in Buddhism, and one does not agree with the other.. that soon there is a huge topic like rainbow body with no direction, just confusion.
There is a wealth of info in that topic, however reading the bickering between people.. and this is right, that is wrong.. kinda takes away from the topic. Dunno.. maybe it will make sense to start a separate topic for each path? |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 11:30:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
So just to be clear, you are saying that AYP Practices follows Advaita Vedanta philosophy in the vein of Adi Shankara?
Hi Alwayson:
As Etherfish points out, AYP does not follow a particular philosophy or doctrine. It follows the cause and effect of practices and their results in the human being. The starting point in my case long ago was yoga, so that is the nomenclature that has been used, simplified to plain English as much as possible.
The "Jnana Yoga/Self-Inquiry - Advaita (Non-Duality)" forum category actually used to be combined with the "Bhakti and Karma Yoga" forum category. It was split out into a separate forum category a few months ago, when it became clear that many here are spontaneously moving into self-inquiry practices of various kinds. This is in line with the AYP assertion that the rise of abiding inner silence (the witness) is the primary cause of self-inquiry, not the other way around. See Lesson 322 and the Self Inquiry book.
Does all of this have corresponding cause and effect in the various systems of Buddhist practice? I am quite certain it does, but we are yet to see it simplified for ordinary human beings. While those long terminology-laden Buddhist topics are interesting for those who have the aptitude, simplification of the process of human spiritual transformation they are not. So we should keep working on that for everyone's sake. 
Thanks!
The guru is in you.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 01:45:36 AM
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| The Dharma is taught in a very different way. The similarities between yoga and the Buddha Dharma are only superficial. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 04:07:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
This is in line with the AYP assertion that the rise of abiding inner silence (the witness) is the primary cause of self-inquiry, not the other way around.
Yes, self-enquiry gets nowhere when it is a mechanical practice to achieve something which is not awake already. Self-enquiry is the curiosity which arises from the witness experience. It is this arising from experience, staying close to inner silence, with an austere avoidance of over-conceptualising or speculation, which means that jnana yoga has remained relatively simple in expression and verbally (at least) accessible. It is not as exalted as a religion or philosophy to adopt, study, conform onself to, it is a recognition and focusing of what is always available, in ordinary experience, to be noticed. It is not even a 'system'.
The jnana forum does not in fact mention advaita vedanta, which would be a system comparable to schools of Buddhism, it mentions advaita (non-duality), which in modern western parlance refers to forms of jnana/self-enquiry.
chinna |
Edited by - chinna on Sep 11 2009 04:30:53 AM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 04:26:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
The Dharma is taught in a very different way. The similarities between yoga and the Buddha Dharma are only superficial.
Or,
The Dharma is taught in a very different way. The differences between Yoga and the Buddha Dharma are only superficial.
Both valid perspectives, dependent on where one is taking one's stand.
chinna |
Edited by - chinna on Sep 11 2009 06:10:21 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 07:47:31 AM
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Again.. not criticizing here.. just trying to show a pattern...
Anytime there is a topic on Buddhism this is what happens:
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
The Dharma is taught in a very different way. The similarities between yoga and the Buddha Dharma are only superficial.
Or,
The Dharma is taught in a very different way. The differences between Yoga and the Buddha Dharma are only superficial.
Both valid perspectives, dependent on where one is taking one's stand.
chinna
Instead of giving the teachings and the info that can help, it goes into a comparison between Buddhism and Yoga.
Why can we not have a Buddhism topic where we are given info without an argument or a comparison. Yogani has taken many practices form many different yoga paths, mantra yoga, kriya yoga, hatha yoga, kundalini yoga, tantra yoga, bhakti yoga and others... and made an integrated yoga system. In his lessons, I have personally never come across a comparison of the different paths. So why not have Buddhism topics where we can have positive discussions instead of comparison and nit picking? No one is learning anything with this kind of discussions.. in fact many are turned off by this and stop reading the topic and lose out on the wealth of info being passes on by so many.
If we cannot have constructive discussions, maybe Yogani needs to get rid of this "other practices" forum. This is a Yoga forum.. Advanced Yoga Practices, so if it is not Yoga.. just don't allow the discussions. esp. if it leads to bickering all the time.
Just thinking aloud. This post is not aimed at anyone.. not even to the people I have quoted above, that was just one example I picked up.. there are millions of such discussions in the Rainbow body topic. So please do not take this personally.
It's easy to argue, it is difficult to get your point across in peace, but the point you get across in peace will stay with the student, the bickering will only turn people away. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 08:18:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
While those long terminology-laden Buddhist topics are interesting for those who have the aptitude, simplification of the process of human spiritual transformation they are not. So we should keep working on that for everyone's sake.
Amen to that!!
Blessings to you Yogani...infinite gratitude for the depth, simplicity and effectiveness of your system...
A path to the Infinite without all the baggage, how refreshing  |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 08:27:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
If we cannot have constructive discussions.....
It's easy to argue, it is difficult to get your point across in peace, but the point you get across in peace will stay with the student, the bickering will only turn people away.
Dear Shanti
There is a difference between 'bickering' and argument intended to pursue a deepening understanding. Both jnana yoga/advaita and Tibetan Buddhism have traditions of robust argument and direct challenge in pursuit of truth. The 'winner' in such an argument is not one side or another, it is everyone's understanding of truth. I think that there are some quite important themes underlying the Buddhism thread, which have not yet been fully expressed, and which can only be clarified by challenge, otherwise it will just be a thread offering information about a tradition to be taken at face value, which anyone can read in a book. Certainly, jnana yoga will always challenge spiritual concepts, and try to get to the root of them.
The point I attempted to make in response to Osel above seems quite an important one to me. It is not just argument for the sake of it, of an I'm right/you're wrong variety. In fact, I have suggested that both perspectives are valid, depending on where you are standing. That seems quite an important point to make in response to a unequivocal and challengeable assertion. I could have just said 'you're right' or 'you're wrong', but both would be pointless. I have tried to deepen the perspective with an alternative suggestion, to keep the perspective alive, undogmatic, workable with, not closed off, always in pursuit of truth, which can never be captured in words.
Certainly, these arguments can get heated, and sometimes a bit personal. But that is in the nature of argument about things that people hold dear.
I guess I am making a plea that we do not overlook the potential of the yoga of argument. Until we resolve whatever questions arise, our silence will only seem like peace, it will not be authentic. I accept that the yoga of argument is not for everyone, and that some will be switched off by it, but then that is true of all the yogas. That's the richness of yoga. We realise the same truth whichever facet of the diamond we are attracted to, and whichever repel us.
chinna |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 09:02:43 AM
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Hi friends,
A few points:
1) Thank your choice of deity/concept that Yogani's place isn't e-sangha!!! AYP Forums is a place of open minds and shared enquiry. Amazing and very special.
2) The notorious Rainbow Body thread, believe it or not (and I don't at all understand why) gave me my final shove into Buddhism, so for me, anyway, there was some serious gold to be found there. A Buddhist thread on AYP did it, where thousands of 'em on e-sangha didn't (in fact I would have run screaming in the opposite direction if e-sangha had been the only Buddhist discussion source I'd found).
3) I think Yogani's right: the Jnana/Self Inquiry forum is a support and rescource for AYP practice primarily. Perhaps somebody - or some of us? - should start a forum of our own. The Mahasiddha Forum, perhaps? How about Virtual Oddiyana? Just a thought. There's a few of us on here who are fascinated by Kashmir Shaivism and the Natha Sampradaya (to name only a couple) as well as Buddhist Tantra...
4) Chinna's right: the yoga of argument is powerful. It requires mature and controlled minds, but that's what we're all striving for, right?
5) I completely understand where you're coming from, Shanti. But actually many of those involved in the Notorious Rainbow Body Thread (Notorious RBT? ) are deeply versed in other systems of practice and are really debating specific points, not AYP worse than Tummo or anything like that (tell me if I'm wrong: I might be).
Anyway, just my tuppence-worth of breath. More than anything I value the civility and humanity of this place. I'm for anything which nurtures that.
All the love,
gri |
Edited by - grihastha on Sep 11 2009 09:05:01 AM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 09:05:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
always in pursuit of truth, which can never be captured in words.
So I guess I'm not sure how arguing with words about the Truth gets us closer to experiening Truth 
Wishing You Diving Outpouring Love
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 09:33:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
I guess I am making a plea that we do not overlook the potential of the yoga of argument. Until we resolve whatever questions arise, our silence will only seem like peace, it will not be authentic.
I would submit that our silence will only become authentic through practices and the daily cultivation of inner silence. Without abiding inner silence, arguments over concepts/theories/spiritual-dogma-of-whatever-variety are exercises of the mind
I have seen very few questions actually resolved on this forum via argument, but have seen quite a bit of wheel spinning over semantics and word parsing about spiritual states that many of the participants have not yet experienced
Just my opinion, but it seems that bringing the mind to Silence via meditation and the cultivation of abiding inner silence through daily practice is in some ways the antithesis of the Yoga of Argument.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard of too many cases of the mind being brought to abiding inner silence through argument with others...but it does seem that argument has an established track record for leading to violence, wars, persecution, etc
Love to you all!! |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 09:52:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
The Dharma is taught in a very different way. The similarities between yoga and the Buddha Dharma are only superficial.
Or,
The Dharma is taught in a very different way. The differences between Yoga and the Buddha Dharma are only superficial.
Both valid perspectives, dependent on where one is taking one's stand.
chinna
By the way Chinna, I loved your response here and definitely agree...
"Both valid perspectives, dependent on where one is taking one's stand." A Parallax, if you will?
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 10:38:32 AM
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Chinna's right. One avenue to experience the truth is close scrutiny. Perhaps it will take the evaluator lifetimes, but scrutiny is very important way to understand universals, like causation, rebirth, etc.
A very effective tool is to show the analytical mind the circularity and arbitrariness of their definitions and assumptions. For example, I'm taking a bruising on E-Sangha for challenging some guy's conclusion that the Buddha is permanent (that he reached after careful and apparently valid reasoning).
The Dharma often appeals to a different kind of mind than tantra yoga. It appeals to thinkers rather than feelers, because of its cross-over with fields of science that are popular today. But the Buddha is the ultimate feeler, and his realization is based on direct intuitional mapping of the plane of reality.
Ultimately the Dharma is about the destruction of views, and the exhaustion of negative outflows of energy. But to exhaust the negative outflows of energy of analytic thought requires analysis and challenges, until the arbitrariness of designations becomes apparent.
For example, I entered the Dharma after penetrating the arbitrary way the Western legal systems are founded on the principle of self-interest is the engine of progress, and all the "negative outflows" that spawn from that assumption. The more penetrated that assumption, the more I realized the Buddha's words were right. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 11 2009 10:46:54 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 10:58:23 AM
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I just wanted to know if AYP practices followed Advaita Vedanta or not.
By the way, buddhism is NOT a non-dual system.
It is dependent origination. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 11 2009 11:37:03 AM |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 11:22:26 AM
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quote:
you can use yoga for EVIL as well.
Same thing goes for a teaspoon.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 11:54:27 AM
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grihastha, I could tell you EXACTLY how to use yoga for great evil...but I am not.
Anyway, I edited my post above, but my point was that it is not Buddhism VERSUS yoga. Yoga is like a car, not a point of view. Would be like saying New York city is the opposite of a Mercedes.
So you can use the yoga car to drive towards A)rainbow body B) Brahman, C)Shiva or D) evil. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 11 2009 12:13:27 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 12:20:53 PM
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Hi alwayson....
Your above post is a great example of what Shanti was trying to point out is not very helpful....perhaps you should go back and read her post above: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=6316#56688
quote:
Shanti said: Instead of giving the teachings and the info that can help, it goes into a comparison between Buddhism and Yoga.
quote:
Alwayson said:I edited my post above, but my point was that it is not Buddhism VERSUS yoga. Yoga is like a car, not a point of view. Would be like saying New York city is the opposite of a Mercedes.
Love,
Carson
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 12:24:16 PM
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Carson,
I honestly don't know how I can make it more clear. Buddhism has yoga. Look at the Lukhang murals.
Yoga is a method, while Buddhism is a point of view. Hinduism is another point of view. Kashmir Shaivism is another point of view.
They all have the same yogas though. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 11 2009 12:57:41 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 1:01:28 PM
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Alwayson....
What you are missing is that I understand all this. What you are missing is that pointing out how Buddhism contains Yoga, and how Yoga is a method and Buddhism is a view is not helpful. What WOULD be helpful is if you took the time to in plain English, explain the Buddhist PRACTICES, instead of focussing on the differences (or similarites) between the two paths. Hope that clears things up for you.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 11 2009 1:02:15 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 1:12:12 PM
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In Buddhism, you see hatha yoga and spinal breathing type exercises. You can see these beautifully illustrated in the Lukhang murals, if you get Ian Baker's book.
In Buddhism daily life itself is also a practice, especially after one has cultivated some sort of insight through vipassana. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 11 2009 1:27:40 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 1:27:23 PM
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Well perhaps you could be of service to others and start expounding on these different practices instead of focussing on the philosophical differences between Buddhism and Yoga, or the differences between the different sects of Buddhism. I think that would be a LOT more helpful to people here.
Love,
Carson |
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Why no Madhyamaka subforum?
