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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 1:28:51 PM
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I am not a teacher Carson. Why am I obligated to talk about actual practices as such?
I talk about my OWN personal experiences in the 'Awareness Watching Awareness' thread while not officially representing buddhism. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 11 2009 1:40:56 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 1:42:56 PM
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You're not obligated to do anything alwayson.... I was simply asking you to do the AYP community in general a favor and expound on the Buddhist practices that you seem to come across as saying are "better" then "yoga" practices in general, instead of purely talking philosophically all the time. And you don't need to consider yourself a "teacher"....we are all teachers AND students to each other....peer to peer oriented, ya know?
Love,
Carson |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 1:50:20 PM
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From Buddhist point of view, AYP is fine to achieve Buddhahood as long as you take Mahayana refuge and have Madhyamaka view. Its that simple.
Some people honestly may not be interested in Buddhahood. If thats the case, another refuge and point of view would suit them better. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 11 2009 2:30:29 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 2:28:21 PM
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The yogas of tantra are very similar to AYP. For example, one "calm abiding" technique of vajrayana is to inhale white colored OM at the crown, visualizing a flame shooting up the central channel (while closing moola and urethra, and doing full breath uddiyana) holding breath visualizing red colored AH at the throat, exhaling blue colored HUNG from the heart.
Kumbhaka plays very prominently in vajra yoga. It is known as the 'vase breath."
Another is Chulen of Space: Inhaling blue energy from space and holding in as in the vase breath, no mantra. Done in morning, and one won't need food. Alt method: Visualizing inhaling the cosmos and all planetary systems inside the abdomen and doing bandhas as in vase breath.
Those would fit in place of SBP and YMK.
Then others like bastrika and nauli are exactly the same. There's also nine part alt nostril pranyama which is almost exactly the same to other pranayama. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 11 2009 2:32:33 PM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 3:38:22 PM
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Hi all,
I dont know which is the best system in the universe.The only thing i clearly know is that ayp is a pearl in my life.This forum also.
I think this forum is about ayp "advanced yoga practices".Other spiriual systems has its place in "other systems..." here in the forum.
I think yogani is VERY openminded and generous.
Dont you think you are asking too much?
I like to read people from other traditions here in the forums,but consider it.
Consider this.
PS-Thanks for the technics osel.
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Edited by - miguel on Sep 11 2009 3:45:44 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2009 : 11:09:53 PM
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I like simple concepts and practices that don't take a lot of words - meditating in silence; living in the moment. It's been quite a few years now, and those things are still all I need.
I know some people like a lot of words and complexity. Nothing wrong with that. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 07:32:09 AM
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Dear Parallax
quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
I guess I am making a plea that we do not overlook the potential of the yoga of argument. Until we resolve whatever questions arise, our silence will only seem like peace, it will not be authentic.
I would submit that our silence will only become authentic through practices and the daily cultivation of inner silence. Without abiding inner silence, arguments over concepts/theories/spiritual-dogma-of-whatever-variety are exercises of the mind
I agree. It's not an either/or. Many of the contributions to the thread in question have been deconstructive of concepts, arising from inner silence and pointing at it.
I have seen very few questions actually resolved on this forum via argument, but have seen quite a bit of wheel spinning over semantics and word parsing about spiritual states that many of the participants have not yet experienced
My experience is that assertions have repeatedly been decontructed and mutually brought to a very simple shared, or almost shared, conclusion. Perhaps if one is averse to argument, that is all that registers.
Just my opinion, but it seems that bringing the mind to Silence via meditation and the cultivation of abiding inner silence through daily practice is in some ways the antithesis of the Yoga of Argument.
Both are methods of bringing the mind to Inner Silence. Read Irina Tweedie's 'Chasm of Fire. Her sadhana was remarkably quick, and harrowing, because she was so questioning and argumentative. As a result she became the lineage successor to the Naqshabandi (?) sufis, after only meeting her Master in her 50s for a couple of years. Her Master was absolutely clear that there is a Quick path - the path of the mind-self being rapidly and vigorously deconstructed, for the very few - and the Slow path, the path of meditation etc. Nisargadatta's guru Siddharameshwar offered a similar viewpoint, which he characterised as difference between the slow 'ant's way' of meditation, with the fast 'bird's way', of conceptual deconstruction. Jnana yoga has traditionally held this view, without rejecting meditation alongside direct conceptual deconstruction.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard of too many cases of the mind being brought to abiding inner silence through argument with others...but it does seem that argument has an established track record for leading to violence, wars, persecution, etc
Read Nisargadatta's 'I Am That', which is a record of constant challenge and argument, and which many can attest has brought the mind to complete Inner Silence in a matter of days. There are two styles of jnana yoga - the eirenic style of Ramana and of the Ashtavakra Gita, and the combative question and challenge style of Nisargadatta. Both have their place. Both arise from, and lead to complete Inner Silence.
Love to you all!!
My view and aspiration is that what is taking place on the Rainbow thread is a wholly traditional spiritual exercise.
chinna |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 07:49:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Alwayson....
What you are missing is that I understand all this. What you are missing is that pointing out how Buddhism contains Yoga, and how Yoga is a method and Buddhism is a view is not helpful. What WOULD be helpful is if you took the time to in plain English, explain the Buddhist PRACTICES, instead of focussing on the differences (or similarites) between the two paths. Hope that clears things up for you.
Love,
Carson
But a key question in the thread has been whether or not certain Buddhist viewpoints or practices or outcomes are unique or not. So comparison is inevitable.
Related to this has been a second key assertion, by more than one contributor, that comparative analysis of different traditions actually helps understanding of what a tradition really amounts to, underneath the special languages and the often challengeable claims to uniqueness which most of them/us make at least some of the time.
These have been key parts of the work of mutual deconstruction in the thread. I for one have been grateful for the steadfast assrtions of Buddhist truths, and the refusal to just concede to alternative point of view so that we can all feel superficially good, because it is this which has enabled me to vigorously address these assertions with deconstructive intent, in the service of Understanding. I have certainly learned much about Vajrayana Buddhism and the points where its unique claims might be valid, and the points where I think they may not be. I could not have learned this just by accepting what my Buddhist friends said at face value.
Perhaps it is this which is the misunderstanding - some would like a thread which is just about Buddhist information, and actually something else - a practice of yoga! - is going on which has not been fully appreciated from outside. It has been interpreted just as an argument for the sake of it, for the sake of ego-dominance. (I am not suggesting that ego doesn't get in there at times!) Well, I think it has been a much richer exchange than that. It certainly has in my experience, and I am most grateful to my Dharma teachers!
That's the view of a more recent participant, anyway.
peace
chinna |
Edited by - chinna on Sep 14 2009 07:59:14 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 08:05:33 AM
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Analyzing systems doesn't bring us any closer to enlightenment. Only practicing does. And what may seem to be the best system for us by analysis can often turn out not to be once practices are begun. The only way to find what is best for you is by contact with your inner guru.
That is done by finding silence within from the practice of consistent meditation.
Analysis only delays enlightenment. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 08:42:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Analyzing systems doesn't bring us any closer to enlightenment. Only practicing does. And what may seem to be the best system for us by analysis can often turn out not to be once practices are begun. The only way to find what is best for you is by contact with your inner guru.
That is done by finding silence within from the practice of consistent meditation.
Analysis only delays enlightenment.
Thanks Etherfish.
Jnana yoga, at times known as the philosophical yoga, the yoga of understanding, or even the yoga of unknowing, is a time-honoured practice, and analysis can be part of it. But it is in the service of the deconstruction of all concepts, all systems, ultimately of mind itself, leaving only the understanding of the Heart.
It is not the same as academic analysis, against which your criticism might stand.
Like all the yoga pathways, it is traditionally regarded as only for those who have the qualities which would be attracted to it. In bhakta we love until we become the beloved, we know longer know separation, and we are attracted to it if we are that sort of an emotional person. In jnana we think until all thinking is exhausted and there are no more concepts, even I-Am, and we are beyond separation into knower and known.
Not everyone is destined for this way.
chinna
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Edited by - chinna on Sep 14 2009 08:51:57 AM |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 10:04:32 AM
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quote:
Analyzing systems doesn't bring us any closer to enlightenment. Only practicing does. And what may seem to be the best system for us by analysis can often turn out not to be once practices are begun. The only way to find what is best for you is by contact with your inner guru.
That is done by finding silence within from the practice of consistent meditation.
Analysis only delays enlightenment.
Go to Top of Page
Hi Etherfish,
I think what Chinna is saying (forgive me, Chinna, if I've lost the plot) is that this is a yoga, therefore ultimately a means of communing with the inner guru.
All I can say is that, while sometimes enjoying, sometimes not enjoying the dialogue on a surface level, something within the argument connected with the inner guru very directly. I attribute the fact that I just received my first empowerment (from a Drikung Kagyu lama, actually) in important part to my experience on a tantric level with the Rainbow Body Thread. This is my personal experience, but it does chime with Chinna's assertion that this kind of dialogue/argument is yoga, therefore a Tantric exercise, therefore Skillful Means.
Emaho!
gri |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 10:48:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Analysis only delays enlightenment.
Ether .....
The United States is in an economic recession.
The spirituality/yoga industry is worth billions of dollars to the economy, every single year.
Billions.
If that sentence gets around .... especially per its utter correctness, and the fact it could shave years/decades off of many people's sadhana .......... well, I don't think I even have to say what the results could be ....!!
On the other hand, enlightened people can either make a lot of money if they decide to, or be content without it ... so ..... never-mind.
Heart* Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman
*Heart. Not rational-logical thinking. Heart.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 14 2009 10:55:26 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 11:01:49 AM
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Screw money...the REAL currency is Love!
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 14 2009 11:02:35 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 11:18:34 AM
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THAT having been analyzed to completion and joined with the cause: cancelling views: inner and outer...
The device: Not being, not non-being, not both or neither, neither reaching nor releasing...
Like clarity within a perfect diamond the indivisible plane of THATness. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 14 2009 11:23:06 AM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 5:02:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
quote:
Analyzing systems doesn't bring us any closer to enlightenment. Only practicing does. And what may seem to be the best system for us by analysis can often turn out not to be once practices are begun. The only way to find what is best for you is by contact with your inner guru.
That is done by finding silence within from the practice of consistent meditation.
Analysis only delays enlightenment.
Go to Top of Page
Hi Etherfish,
I think what Chinna is saying (forgive me, Chinna, if I've lost the plot) is that this is a yoga, therefore ultimately a means of communing with the inner guru.
All I can say is that, while sometimes enjoying, sometimes not enjoying the dialogue on a surface level, something within the argument connected with the inner guru very directly. I attribute the fact that I just received my first empowerment (from a Drikung Kagyu lama, actually) in important part to my experience on a tantric level with the Rainbow Body Thread. This is my personal experience, but it does chime with Chinna's assertion that this kind of dialogue/argument is yoga, therefore a Tantric exercise, therefore Skillful Means.
Emaho!
gri
Sounds like you really found the plot, Gri. Peace and joy!
chinna
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 8:05:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Screw money...the REAL currency is Love!
Love,
Carson
Amen to that, Brother Carson!!
As I'm guessing you, and everyone here "gets" .... I was purely joking around ... while pointing out that:
A. Less analysis = more enlightenment.
&
B. Enlightenment renders money matters relatively immaterial.
Though, yes ... as currencies go, Love most certainly wins ...... we each-all have-are an infinite supply of it ... yet the more we give, the more we have.
That's your basic good system, right there.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 8:36:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
As I'm guessing you, and everyone here "gets" .... I was purely joking around
Hey Brother K-Man
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but yeah, I "got" that you were joking.
FWIW though, there probably IS a lot of money to be made "selling yoga", but personally, I prefer an "energetic exchange" over a "currency exchange" every time
Love,
Carson |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 8:39:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Screw money...the REAL currency is Love!
Love,
Carson
I like that Carson!
"Love is what's left after you get rid of everything you don't need..."
Quote from Erich Schiffmann's DVD Yoga, Mind and Body |
Edited by - machart on Sep 14 2009 8:43:29 PM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2009 : 03:59:00 AM
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| Well, to quote/rip off The Sex Pistols, "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Enlightenment"! It always sounds like something the Bodhidharma would have said had he been a punk rocker instead of a Buddha. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2009 : 10:42:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
Dear Parallax
quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
I guess I am making a plea that we do not overlook the potential of the yoga of argument. Until we resolve whatever questions arise, our silence will only seem like peace, it will not be authentic.
I would submit that our silence will only become authentic through practices and the daily cultivation of inner silence. Without abiding inner silence, arguments over concepts/theories/spiritual-dogma-of-whatever-variety are exercises of the mind
I agree. It's not an either/or. Many of the contributions to the thread in question have been deconstructive of concepts, arising from inner silence and pointing at it.
I have seen very few questions actually resolved on this forum via argument, but have seen quite a bit of wheel spinning over semantics and word parsing about spiritual states that many of the participants have not yet experienced
My experience is that assertions have repeatedly been decontructed and mutually brought to a very simple shared, or almost shared, conclusion. Perhaps if one is averse to argument, that is all that registers.
Just my opinion, but it seems that bringing the mind to Silence via meditation and the cultivation of abiding inner silence through daily practice is in some ways the antithesis of the Yoga of Argument.
Both are methods of bringing the mind to Inner Silence. Read Irina Tweedie's 'Chasm of Fire. Her sadhana was remarkably quick, and harrowing, because she was so questioning and argumentative. As a result she became the lineage successor to the Naqshabandi (?) sufis, after only meeting her Master in her 50s for a couple of years. Her Master was absolutely clear that there is a Quick path - the path of the mind-self being rapidly and vigorously deconstructed, for the very few - and the Slow path, the path of meditation etc. Nisargadatta's guru Siddharameshwar offered a similar viewpoint, which he characterised as difference between the slow 'ant's way' of meditation, with the fast 'bird's way', of conceptual deconstruction. Jnana yoga has traditionally held this view, without rejecting meditation alongside direct conceptual deconstruction.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard of too many cases of the mind being brought to abiding inner silence through argument with others...but it does seem that argument has an established track record for leading to violence, wars, persecution, etc
Read Nisargadatta's 'I Am That', which is a record of constant challenge and argument, and which many can attest has brought the mind to complete Inner Silence in a matter of days. There are two styles of jnana yoga - the eirenic style of Ramana and of the Ashtavakra Gita, and the combative question and challenge style of Nisargadatta. Both have their place. Both arise from, and lead to complete Inner Silence.
Love to you all!!
My view and aspiration is that what is taking place on the Rainbow thread is a wholly traditional spiritual exercise.
chinna
Hey Chinna,
Been away for awhile for work, but just wanted to respond to a couple of things.
First is that I in no way meant to denigrate anyone's spiritual path; I am definitely of the mind set that we are all at different stages on our spiritual path's and our inner guru will lead us to the practices and styles that will be the most beneficial for us given our unique "matrix of inner obstructions". Jnana is as valid a path as any, as long as what's actually being practiced is Jnana...
My post was meant to caution that: (i) the Infinite can't be grasped by the intellect, (ii) that spiritual understanding (ie, chapter and verse) is not the same as spiritual Experience, and (iii) that the "I've got more secret transmission of teachings than you have"; "oh yeah anyone that thinks that obviously doesn't know what they are talking about", seems to be straying from Jnana into realms of the ego...just how it came across to me, I may be way off base...
That said, I learned much from the thread (mostly about myself and my reactions to it), and hopefully others did as well...
On Irina Tweedie, I've read Daughter of Fire (one of my favs), watched the DVDs of 2 of her interviews, and read transcripts of several others (I was quite taken by per experience for a period of time...still am I must admit  ); and her sadhana was definitely not a stand alone Jnana approach.
If you recall, it was very heavily kundalini oriented/guru shaktipat (very dramatic kundalini experiences over an extended period), did involve meditation, as well as the recitation of mantras. In the relatively few extended spiritual discussions they did have (vs her time spent sitting alone outside...frequently in meditation), Bhai Sahib basically attempted to confuse/cajole/humiliate her in an effort to get her to give up any of the ideas/dogma/preconceptions that she tried to grasp onto. So it was multi-faceted approach of which argument was NOT the primary practice...it wasn't a diary of 5yrs of arguing/intellectual jousting at the end of which Tweedie said, "oh, OK, i see what you're saying now, you convinced me", and was magically enlightened. Not that there weren't arguments (Tweedie was fairly headstrong), but it was about the opening of the HEART chakra, and sufism is often thought of as the path of LOVE (ie, constant references to the Beloved).
The Naqshbandi Path's primary practice is silent dhikr, not self-inquiry or intellectual undertanding.
The other thing to mention is that Tweedie constantly refers to her experience as the path of SUFFERING, as you would expect a rapid and aggressive kundalini and deconstruction of the ego experience to be...not necessarily a great path for the masses
Enlightenment doesn't have to be suffering, ie AYP's key words are bliss, ecstasy and divine outpouring love.
I've also got 'I AM THAT' sitting on my nightstand; which is essentially the transcripts of Nisargadatta's discussions and discourses, so obviously is a Q&A/discussion format; but according to Nisargadatta Maharaj, his GURU gave him the instructions to "concentrate on the sense of I AM" at all times...more a constant meditation on oneself...not necessarily a "if you read all these books and understand all these esoteric teachings you will achieve Enlightenment"...more self-inquiry style (which definitely has its place in AYP)
Nisargadatta's discourses weren't heated discussions over which weren't scriptures /spiritual teachings/lineages were more right, he was relating to his students his own experiences
The question and challenge style of ego deconstruction may be wholly effective when conducted between a guru (Nisargadatta/Bhai Sahib, who had already overcome the ego) and their respective disciples; but in my opinion contain many more pitfalls when conducted among multiple seekers who have not yet overcome the ego...too often the ego gets in the way and devolves into to arguments over who's right...hence my words of caution
OK, I'm out of this thread...otherwise it starts looking like I'm arguing...and that would make me a hypocrite
I appreciate and learn from all of you on this website and sincerely wish all of you the most rapid, blissful and fun-filled path to the Infinite as possible...I think all of you are great
Much Love to You All
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2009 : 06:15:38 AM
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By the way, I know that my last contribution was entirely ego driven: trying to defend my "position", trying to demonstrate my knowledge of Tweedie and Nisargadatta, trying to point out the perceived mischaracterizations in others' posts...ie, getting sucked into the mind-ego games
I was aware of it as I was writing, but decided to let it play out anyway to see just how much time I wasted trying to be "right". The final tally? ~1.5hrs in which I missed out on doing my jala neti, asanas and had to cut short my SBP and DM sessions so I could get some sleep...
Maybe I should have stuck to doing basti b/c its pretty clear I'm full of...well anyway...
Anyway, let everyone enjoy their chosen path, while avoiding as many pitfalls as possible along the way!!
Peace, Love and Happiness to You All... |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2009 : 10:02:18 AM
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| In daily life of the yogi, there is a place for meditation, study and inquiry. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2009 : 10:58:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
In daily life of the yogi, there is a place for meditation, study and inquiry.
The bedroom, the library, the supermarket |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 08:18:15 AM
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Dear Parallax
quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
My post was meant to caution that: (i) the Infinite can't be grasped by the intellect, (ii) that spiritual understanding (ie, chapter and verse) is not the same as spiritual Experience, and (iii) that the "I've got more secret transmission of teachings than you have"; "oh yeah anyone that thinks that obviously doesn't know what they are talking about", seems to be straying from Jnana into realms of the ego...just how it came across to me, I may be way off base...
Well, how can the ego be exposed as non-existent unless it is ventured? Do you imagine that all the AYP practices are not ego-driven? Like stirring a fire with a stick, all yoga is ego-driven but ends ironically with the ego's non-existence being realised.
quote:
Enlightenment doesn't have to be suffering, ie AYP's key words are bliss, ecstasy and divine outpouring love.
To be beyond suffering is to be beyond existence, beyond bliss too. To be free, untroubled by/amidst suffering or bliss is the aim. Bliss points to that freedom, but so does suffering, and suffering can be a quicker way, because there are fewer illusions available.
quote:
Nisargadatta's discourses weren't heated discussions over which weren't scriptures /spiritual teachings/lineages were more right, he was relating to his students his [i]own experiences
No, but whenever anyone brought such ideas, he vigorously questioned them, as in the thread in question. I assert and question only from experience. Jnana is only interested in personal experience. There were dialogues unrecorded in Nisargadatta's books (which had the rough edges smoothed off) where the verbal struggle is dramatic.
quote:
The question and challenge style of ego deconstruction may be wholly effective when conducted between a guru (Nisargadatta/Bhai Sahib, who had already overcome the ego) and their respective disciples; but in my opinion contain many more pitfalls when conducted among multiple seekers who have not yet overcome the ego...too often the ego gets in the way and devolves into to arguments over who's right...hence my words of caution.
We are deluded if we imagine that this theatre of yoga, whichever yoga path is imagined, is not riddled with ego. That is the illusory disease being treated here. No amount of sugaring our ego-thrusts with smiley buttons will change that. To imagine that the forum is an ego-free zone and that we should be hiding our egos is to turn it into conventional religion. Yoga is about authenticity, if nothing else, about seeing and treating the ostructions to clarity and freedom, whether mental, emotional, physical, karmic, pranic, etc etc.
I have learned to have great faith in groups' capacity to teach and treat - I run residential therapeutic group treatment programmes for those whose obstructions are fully and dangerously manifest. The group can often be just as effective and as powerful as any individual 'enlightened' or 'expert' person in getting to the heart of the matter and treating it. This forum's purpose is surely to empower the group in this way? Idealising the 'enlightened individual' can disempower effective work that everyone can do together.
chinna
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Edited by - chinna on Sep 20 2009 09:49:23 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2009 : 08:54:22 AM
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| Getting rid of ego consciousness is very easy indeed. All you need to do is fall half asleep. |
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Why no Madhyamaka subforum?
