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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 09:20:15 AM
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Has anyone observed that when asleep and dreaming that the "past" in any given situation you are observing springs out from the present?
In other words, you are dreaming and suddenly find yourself on a street corner. The moment the question arises, how did I get here? A whole plausible past unfolds which makes complete sense in explaining how you got there. It is easy to miss that is wasn't already there and that there wasn't already a perfectly plausible sequence of how you got to that street corner.
Makes me wonder if waking reality operates the same way.
Also interesting to observe how the dream energy extends out of the mind to fill empty space with perfectly realistic images which are a reflection of the inner state. At one point in the past, it was observed that the mind creates waking reality in much the same way, but it is easy to forget.
Just sharing some useless but somewhat interesting observations, feel free to add on.  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 10:13:04 AM
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That's interesting Anthem11. Here's something similar I have thought about:
All of our memories and karma seem to be connected to our body, and yet we know that we are not really the body.
What we really are is a point of perception. If everything we know and all karma are integrated into the body, then how do we know we are the same person we were yesterday?
Maybe the body is like a suit we put on when we wake up, and we act according to the personality that the body has and connect to the memory and karma complex that was in the body. And maybe we wake up in another body the next day?
Of course you would say, how can we learn without continuity?
But all that learning is part of the illusion, and just ends up in a state where we radiate divine love; it's not about absorbing a whole database of knowledge. It's really quite simple. I don't think we do travel to different bodies, but it seems quite plausible. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 3:37:24 PM
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It sounds to me like you are describing premonition, precognition, deja vu etc - these words are all mixed up together in the literature, but they mean the same thing. They are different degrees of the same phenomena, which is time and space fluctuating independenly from your awareness.
Presentiment is about the subconscious mind knowing a sensory stimulus 2 seconds before the conscious mind becomes aware of that stimulus. It operates also backwards, or forwards, where the mind can apparently affect random number generators.
It seems so obvious to me i think my endeavouring to explain it is lame. But this is it to me : - the past and the future are illusions of change against a background of present which is the sense of self or "I" or fundamental basic awareness, and which isn't amenable to thought streams without gaps between them. When we are dreaming our physiological and mental functions are operating on less energy, and so there are gaps in the thought streams which allows psychic intuition to enter. And this type of intuition is specific to human consciousness as revealing a source beyond time and space as we know it relatively.
This is what i was trying to say in my previous post about psychic and superconscious. They are the same thing really. Another name for them might be "anomalous phenomena". Psychic is often confused for simple common sense and other not-so-subtle cues from the environment and body language of other people. A real psychic experience has to operate beyond the usual boundaries of subjective cause and effect, time and space relative perceptions. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 3:43:13 PM
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| I also believe that consciousness is a property of the universe like matter and energy, and that the entire universe is like a massive consciousness or soul. THe universe as a whole is the ocean, and our minds are little radio waves in it, and it contains all information already, now, not some other time. When you look at stars in the night sky, lots of them have already, now, perished, but we still see the star, the light is still coming to our eyes. This is positive proof that everything is a mirage in terms of time and space. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 5:22:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Has anyone observed that when asleep and dreaming that the "past" in any given situation you are observing springs out from the present?
......
Makes me wonder if waking reality operates the same way.
Yes, indubitably. This lesson was taught to me in meditation where repeatedly, there was light, and the mind turned the light into something recognisable, complete with a whole reality to make it recognisable.
Quantum science is pretty close to saying the same thing. There is an infinite number of potential realities, and the one we experience is the one we choose from the infinite potential storehouse.
And that includes the AYP Forum, where we have all manifested the wish to break the spell of appearances!
chinna
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 6:39:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Has anyone observed that when asleep and dreaming that the "past" in any given situation you are observing springs out from the present?
In other words, you are dreaming and suddenly find yourself on a street corner. The moment the question arises, how did I get here? A whole plausible past unfolds which makes complete sense in explaining how you got there. It is easy to miss that is wasn't already there and that there wasn't already a perfectly plausible sequence of how you got to that street corner.
Makes me wonder if waking reality operates the same way.
Also interesting to observe how the dream energy extends out of the mind to fill empty space with perfectly realistic images which are a reflection of the inner state. At one point in the past, it was observed that the mind creates waking reality in much the same way, but it is easy to forget.
Just sharing some useless but somewhat interesting observations, feel free to add on.
Hi Anthem,
Far from useless, I'd say.
Infinitely far, as a matter of fact.
What you've touched upon here (how a sense of "past" is created in the dream state, and how this might relate to how a sense of "past" is created in the so-called waking state) is a rather major clue ... a potential key .... to getting how it *all* works.
And when the "getting" (intuitively understanding) and experiencing harmonize, and you realize what's really happening .... you realize.
Paramahamsa Nithyananda outlines how the Four Stages of Consciousness relate to each other, to meditation and to realization in this excellent video:
VIDEO: Nithyananda - Four Stages of Consciousness.
The importance of knowing the reality of how these stages of consciousness are appearing in-from-as awareness, now, is ... well ... fundamental ... to meditation ... yoga ... realization.
How fundamental?
This fundamental:
A = {Faux} Waking State
U = Thinking-Dreaming State
M = Deep Sleep State
. {Bindu} = Turiya-Samadhi-Inner Silence State
Why is meditation important?
Per Nithyananda:
Meditation helps Awareness/Samadhi/Inner Silence to permeate the waking state and deep sleep states .... thus *healing* the disturbances created by the thinking-dreaming state's pathological permeation of the (faux) waking state and deep sleep state.
"If your waking state and deep sleep state is totally influenced by the turiya (samadhi/inner silence) state, this is what we call jivan mukti .. living enlightenment."
~Paramahamsa Nithyananda
"When your waking state and deep sleep state is totally influenced by dreaming (thinking) ... this is what I call living in hell."
~Paramahamsa Nithyananda
Per the video, the four basic stages of consciousness can be diagrammed as follows:
Waking | Awareness (Samadhi, Turiya)
Dreaming | Deep Sleep
What do Waking and Dreaming have in common?
Form ... focus ... objectivity.
What do Deep Sleep and Awareness (Samadhi, Turiya) have in common?
Formlessness ... Unity ... subjectivity.
When thinking-dreaming permeates waking and deep sleep, the result is (as Nithyananda points out in the video) "all manner of physical and psychological diseases".
When awareness-samadhi permeates the waking and deep sleep states, the result is .... reality ... jivan mukti .... living enlightenment.
Meditation ..... the Awareness .... Inner Silence ... resulting from meditation .... is the *antidote* to the pathology of ego-mind .... the artificial constriction of limited mind, including the thought called "limited me".
"Dream state constantly penetrate the waking state and unconscious {sleep} state, is what leads to more and Tamas, that's what we call Pravrtti (Emanation) ... traveling towards suffering.
If the Turiya (awareness, inner silence) state constantly penetrates the waking state and unconscious (deep sleep) state, we call this Nivrtti (Return) ... moving toward fulfillment .. meditation leads to clarity .. clarity leads to meditation."
~Paramahamsa Nithyananda
This discussion gets to the very heart of what I mean when I say:
"You are not who you think you are."
Past is a concept - an imagination, a thought -- derived from memory.
Future is a concept - an imagination, a thought -- derived from memory.
Past and Future are concepts, thoughts, imaginations held in mind.
When are these thoughts (and all other thoughts) held in mind?
Now.
There is only now.
I've said recently "ego is a closed loop with the past", and "body is memory".
Awareness ... the awareness we each and all are ... the awareness reading these words, now ...... is always whole .... and "starts" every (perceived) moment *whole*.
Awareness moves, and forms objects.
Initially, there is only movement ... emptiness, dancing ... no distinction between subject and objects ... pure potential, only ... this is equivalent to deep sleep ... the latent repository with which each moment is created, now.
Then, specifics begin to form .... definitions, distinctions .... mental representations.
As part of this process, attention crosses the threshold of Maya (objectivity) entirely ... and creates separation-limitation ... (Kala) .. the idea of non-omnipotence, of having less than complete power; the dream of partial-self; this creates the idea of non-omniscience (vidya), which creates the idea of imperfection, non-completeness, and thus creates desire (raga) ... for, if we are non-whole, filling that non-wholeness feels ... essential, yes?
Non-Finally .... this dream-limitation must have a limited place to play-suffer ... and so, awareness takes the remainder of itself (not knotted up in the dream of limited me) ... and creates "limited world", namely (and formly) ....
... the ideas of being limited in space (Niyati) and time (Kala). <- From which we get the name of the goddess, Kali.
Obviously, the dream (usually thought of as "my life") resulting from these artificial constrictions of ever-open awareness, are most unpleasant, and escape is continually sought ..... usually in every direction except the one that actually works ("silence-ward"; "meditation-ward", *Within*).
The solution?
Meditate.
Yes --- the great secret is too simple, really ... usually too simply to be believed-experienced:
Enlightenment is *not* attained; unenlightenment is no longer made-up.
Noticing the similarities between the so-called waking state, and the thinking-dream state, can help to see clearly how this all works.
Most importantly of all, though, is coming to understand that *no* mental forms have anything to do with who-what we actually are .... including any-all concepts of past and future.
Self is the clear experiencing awareness (samadhi, turiya, inner silence) .. and not any form of thinking-dreaming .... whether walking around in the world-dream, dreaming "I'm me" (faux waking state), or sleeping and having me-dreams (thinking-dreaming state).
Pragamatically, this doesn't mean normal life (quote unquote) isn't lived; it just means that the artificial hyper-focus on the non-existent "thought called me" essentially ceases .... and life goes on .... smoothly ... peacefully ..... and far more harmoniously than the "dream called me" and its death-grip of attempted control could ever conceive-believe.
I hope this helps; thanks for starting this thread, Anthem ..... powerful topic!!
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 07 2009 6:43:22 PM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 7:36:14 PM
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| Thanks Kirtanman |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 10:03:47 PM
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interesting read Kirtanman, now I am going to let it go
brother neil
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2009 : 11:09:48 PM
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| In a way, reality does operate in a similar way, or rather the mind does. That is because the mind radically colors what it remembers until it is really quite another event. You know this if you have ever met with a group of people you haven't seen for a long time. of course, if there is something cataclysmic, everyone will remember it in their stories, but otherwise you will find quite different stories coming from different people who were at the same place and time. This is because the mind constructs the past. |
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 02:52:52 AM
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quote:
Quantum science is pretty close to saying the same thing. There is an infinite number of potential realities, and the one we experience is the one we choose from the infinite potential storehouse.
As a side note, this is actually the key to the 'Matrix Energetics' experience and healing process taught by Richard Bartlett. Different than traditional energy healing methods, one literally drops down into the heart collapses the 'wave' (current reality) and allows another potential reality to emerge. |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 03:48:43 AM
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| A very good book about the science of this called, "The Quantum Enigma" written by two CA physicists talks in detail about this. One theory known as superposition states that when not consciously observed everything exists as potential, but not form. Once something is consciously perceived by humans it takes form in three dimensional space as well as in time. One of the problems with this theory was how anything in the universe could be older than around a million years, roughly when humans became conscious. Evidence has shown that when consciously observed things not only become form, but also instantly have a past, present, and future. Sorry I can't explain it better, but the book is fascinating. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 07:57:54 AM
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| Great replies everyone, a nice expansion to the topic. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 11:18:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow
A very good book about the science of this called, "The Quantum Enigma" written by two CA physicists talks in detail about this. One theory known as superposition states that when not consciously observed everything exists as potential, but not form. Once something is consciously perceived by humans it takes form in three dimensional space as well as in time. One of the problems with this theory was how anything in the universe could be older than around a million years, roughly when humans became conscious. Evidence has shown that when consciously observed things not only become form, but also instantly have a past, present, and future. Sorry I can't explain it better, but the book is fascinating.
The million years problem is solved as soon as the duality mind/reality is overcome. There is no evidence for a reality beyond 'mind', how could there be? The whole past and future appears at the moment of focusing. And that includes the 'story' of humanity appearing a millions years ago in a pre-existent world. There is only the present moment, space-time is the collective imagination. Evolution represents the fact that unless there is change, nothing exists, and unless there is incremental change, with each phenomenon linked to everything else in a chain of conception, nothing makes sense. So we generate, in a flash, and maintain each moment, the evolutionary story, including our appearance on the scene, as a species, as a necessary background for the story we are really interested in, our appearance as an individual. The moment we want to BE, all the rest arises, in all its dimensions.
Indra's net said it all many many moons ago. Science is running to catch up.
There is no difference between generating dreams and generating the 'reality' in which they take place. It's a hall of mirrors.
chinna |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 8:07:57 PM
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Hi chinna,
Absolutely agree with you. Science is slowly coming around to the realization that what the great teachers have been saying forever is the Truth. We are simply bubbles appearing to move through time within the great unchanging bubble that just is. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 4:53:49 PM
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Hey Kirtanman,
Funny I could see right away what you meant and understood that the body is a memory, but coincidentally experienced it first-hand this morning. I had gone deep into the heart and everything was disolved and as I came out, it was observed how attention had to travel and remember the body and interestingly a mild injoury I currently have. It was fun to watch and gives some insight on how to rewrite the script... |
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When dreaming, past created in present.
