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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 10:51:32 AM
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Ahimsa is the only response. Because when there is true ahimsa, you have seen from within that there is nothing outside of you that needs to change. (Hence the statement from the true ahimsa master [Gandhi]: "Be the change you want to see in the world"). You really cannot force ahimsa, it has to come from within (forced ahimsa is "giving up", meekness, true ahimsa needs more courage than fighting back or giving up, because true ahimsa involves looking within, the hardest part of this path is to look within and see the truth... the mind is the most threatened by this.. hence we are always focusing our attention outward, it is so much easier to find the answers outside, but those answers will give you a solution for the moment, but the problem will not go away, next time it shows up, you will still be bothered by it, but once you have experienced the truth, you are set free from that bondage forever) . When that happens (you experience ahimsa from within), you don't suffer for anyone else or yourself. If you apply the three things I have quoted above to any situation, you will feel the shift. If every man walking in front of the "spitting man", showed no reaction to the spitting, the man doing the spitting would finally just give up and find another way to harass the people. If he is not getting a reaction from the harassing, if people just ignore it and walk on, his ego will not get the satisfaction it is looking for, he will stop spitting. Egos need partners to dance with.. they cannot dance alone. If you don't react, the other ego cannot dance by itself for long.
That is also when you have dropped karma. When you can walk on without reacting, you have just dropped the attachment you have to "how that man should treat you", hence never again will a man spitting at you bother you.. you just transcended the "spitting man" karma. Seriously tho... when you, from within "see" no one else is harming you.. they are judging and acting based on an image of you.. and you are defending an image you have of yourself that they have convinced you that you are (before those 15 sec in front of that man who spit at you, how much time had you spend walking around thinking you are a "white man" (his image of you)? How much time since then have you been spending defending yourself as a "white man" (his image of you)?), you cannot take that personally any more. How can someone hurt/attack you if you are not there to defend that image they have of you? And when you are not "hurt", when you don't react, when you don't attach a pain reaction and store it away in your body/mind, you just let go of a karma. All the past hurts will fall away and the future ones will not have a place to stick to. Your mind has just got freed from a karma.
Yes, don't be a 'doormat" I agree, but don't become a "victim" either. See the situation for what it is, and let it go. You can fight till the end of this world with the monsters outside of you, but unless you see from within, the monsters exists because you believe they exist "the man should not spit at white people", rather, "the man is spitting because he does not know better, he is misguided, he thinks he is fighting for his people by spitting at people who don't have his skin color.. etc.", when you see how ridiculously misguided that man is, you have just let go anger, fear, frustrations toward a situation that for years kept you bound.
If you are in danger, yes fight back, take cover, call the cops, join a group that is working toward stopping such behavior, or do whatever the situation warrants. And at the same time, look into the situation too. Remember, when things happen to disturb you from within, gives you a flutter from within, you have just been presented with a blessing, a blessing to step out of the wheel of karma. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 11:42:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
So brother Ananda, given the situation that someone is walking by you, and angrily spits on the street as they pass you, you would feel this requires some sort of action?
first i would ask him if i was meant by it and then we'll c what will happen .
and if i was in gumpi's place i would stand up for myself, don't want these guys make a habit out of it and i refuse to be anyone's doormat.
i should point out that i am a very peaceful person and this stuff rarely does happen with me but in case it happens i think that it requires verbal or physical action.
peace and love ,
A |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 1:41:14 PM
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I was thinking along the same lines as Shanti, only she has expressed so beautifully, I wouldn't even try
I think the movie "Fearless" starring Jet Li is a good example of someone transending anger and revenge in the fighting arena. |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 1:41:41 PM
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Gumpi,
What makes you think that there is any such thing as 'innocent,' 'guilty,' 'deserving?'
There are some things in life over which we can exert modest control: transactions and transactional relationships. If you give the newsagent a couple of quid in return for TimeOut, you 'deserve' the TimeOut. If you turn on the tap and hold a glass under it, you 'deserve' a glass of water. But if you believe that innocent people get the treatment their innocence deserves, then you believe in karma: you believe in cause-and-effect governing the spontaneous present.
As a Londoner (admittedly I haven't lived there for 10 years) who has been extremely familiar with the situation you describe, my practical advice is don't let the situation kick off unless you are very good at violence (can you say to yourself, "I'm good at violence? I'm a violent person?"), because inviting violence is one of the transactional relationships above. You're starting something with a predictable outcome. Though in my experience it usually ends up with the one who's less good at violence sitting in casualty. Violence is never a good idea, on a purely practical level (at least one of you will get hurt, and one or both of you may get nicked into the bargain). But on a spiritual level, especially the systems and practices of spirituality we're investigating with AYP, it can be nothing but a disaster. If you react, pushed beyond endurance by the notion that you are innocent and the situation is unfair, are you still innocent? What, then, do you 'deserve?'
Perhaps, next time you're due to walk past the guy, you could have a couple of cans of beer with you: one for him, one for you. Stop, give him a beer, open yours, say cheers, and ask him what it's all about? I'm not saying I'd be strong enough to do this, but isn't it a more pleasant potential response than screwing yourself up for a fight?
All the love,
gri |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 2:45:12 PM
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What would i do?--
i would either give him an unemotional 'hi'(yes etherfish i've learnt that one too from DM)
or ignore him
No-one is innocent. This is what we might like to believe.And wondering why bad afflicts the good sounds likely to bring on a headache.( like self-inquiry for the wretched) like seeing a child in a wheelchair and trying to fathom if that child deserves it..The law of karma says it will balance out in thelong run.Cosmic ordering....
Black troubled youths spitting on streets in urban london are probably some of our greatest gurus whether we like it or not.
We can react and pile on more negative energy or we can do something more creative and give out positive energy(not neccessarily smile as this might set them off , ' i'm happier than you' kinda thing,but just nod,say helllo or enquire after their welfare in an egoless way).It's your choice,your karma if you like.Many of us operate from a place of FEAR (like that guy you describe ,probably a good e.g)becuase that is probably the culture we've been conditioned to inhabit.But it need'nt be like that.
It's a tricky one gumpi. It's not easy.
I think you need to deal with your anger,the demons found withi(,not 'out' there) to get at the root of this. If it was easy we'd all be like Gandhi( Gandhi was forced into a ditch once because there was a lack of room on the road and recounted to his friend how he felt privilged for being allowed to do that, so you can turn things around).You could enquire i.e look within.-that is where all the answers lie-why does gumpi feel annngry?---He just does... if that does'nt work then try letting it dissolve in silence-not attaching stories,mind-filters,self-identifcations or labelling on to it.
You are not a push-over, door-mat but neither are you affected by it.'Unshakeable inner silence' is what we could all do with more of.
In allowing that guy to spit , you are allowing him to get things off his chest.
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Edited by - Akasha on Aug 02 2009 3:06:18 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 3:11:28 PM
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Yes, very well put, esp. Shanti.
The odd thing about situations like this is that you probably don't understand what is really going on. That is why meditation is so important. Once you meditate enough that you find your inner guru, all of these things become clear.
I am speaking from experience. My inner guru answers questions for me all the time. You could call it God, or Jesus, or inner voice, whatever; I got to a point where I knew how to communicate with him, and I knew I could trust him (this was done by finding inner silence, and second trial and error with the communication.)
So once I established this communication I asked all the questions you are asking Gumpi.
I asked to show me if karma is true, and I asked in many situations similar to this thread to show me why that person does what he does.
Then I would let go of the question and move on.
A day or two later I would find myself in a situation where the answer to my question was right in front of me. Maybe I would see the black guy who spit talking to someone and telling them why. But the answer was always plain, to the point, and exactly what I asked.
So what I am trying to say is you don't need to believe in karma, and you don't need to be a super holy person who practices ahimsa and loves everyone etc.
You don't need to understand all the complicated workings of spiritual stuff.
All you need to do is meditate, find silence, and find your inner guru.
Neither of those requires any effort at all; it automatically happens as a result of consistent,
twice a day meditation.
What is most surprising to me is that many of the answers I get are not at all what I expected.
Maybe the black guy was scared of you, and spitting was his attempt at being tough to establish a boundary. This is the kind of answers I got from my inner guru that surprised me.
How do I know they are true? Because my inner guru doesn't speak to me; he puts me in situations where i can see the truth directly from its source.
This isn't the same for everyone; your inner guru may communicate totally differently.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 3:42:17 PM
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EF,
I have a small window of opportunity left right now, until tomorrow, to say that there were many things incorrect in what i percieved you to have just said. For now, i will sign off and i hope to reply in depth tomorrow.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 3:50:50 PM
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i really think that most of the guys around here have a very kind heart like most of my yogic and spiritual friends and it's a privilege to be around you people.
too bad i am not surrounded by such a lovely crowd all the time; i live among confused people for most of the time where some boundaries have to be put and one must make his presence among others or he'll be eaten up.
i am all for ahimsa and for being reasonable first hand and letting diplomacy work it's way and definitely against violence i mean who would like to be beaten up by a bunch of guys but in the real world i am living in at least i.e. where i live; if you go around and meet a bully or a tough crowd and show signs of weakness then you're going to get it again and again... i've seen that happen to other people and some persons are simply cruel and if you don't stand up to them or at least find a way to stay far from them then they're going to take it all... there's no end to man's greed and even though there's goodness in everyone but some just do not show mercy 24\7.
brother gumpi in case you still have that bad feeling and you want it dissolved, again and again just let it go into your samyama and ecstatic bliss will flower instead of anger just be quiet and aware and return back to where your angry thoughts came from and you'll find emptiness\blissful peace(just let go and let God; best trick there is IMHO and it works.)
A |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 4:12:23 PM
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| I am God. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 4:51:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I am God.
Yes, you are God. Realize this and you will be free from all suffering.
Then someone spitting at you wont bother you, nor will karma. We are all God.. we have just lost our way in the illusions of "me" and "mine". Be still, meditate and see you are God, then nothing else matters. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 10:42:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I am God.
Then someone spitting on the sidewalk has no effect on you whatsoever. You just watch it, and don't even make any judgements. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2009 : 02:56:06 AM
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yes and God is all so this means that you are the spit and the black guys as well so peace.
i don't want to give any more historical facts for there are many especially concerning the saints around my area jewish, muslim, and christian and one of those is Kamal Joumblat sister Shweta.
a lot of the realized sages lived as i am that and more but at the same time they lived in the real world and when they were faced by a certain life challenge they went head on and faced it and honor and self respect and the respect of others is smthg well worth protecting IMHO you live once why not live with integrity with your head up.
i hope you'll have enough stamina to say i am God each time you pass around these guys and they spit or god forbids they do smthg more.
i am not saying that i am pro violence and i would never go for picking on someone or smthg like that but i refuse to be picked on and humiliated and be anyone's doormat and i am Peace Light and Love.
out of topic, just an advaitic reminder you have to even let go of the notion i am God as well at a certain point until it becomes I and then even the I has to be dropped thus only direct euphoric emptiness and the way to do that is to inquire from where the i am God came from.
love ya kind hearted peops, and hopefully the world at some point will be filled with guys like you.
A |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2009 : 11:57:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
yes and God is all so this means that you are the spit and the black guys as well so peace.
great wisdom and truth! If you can see God in the sh*t,... That said, I went quickly through the whole thread and got angry not to have responded to it earlier!
So, just 1 or 2 things:
I think each one of us is responsible for whatever happens to him AND whatever happens to people in the world..As far as we see eachother as separate entities, there's no way to deal with anger and other negative emotions.And what better dualistic mechanism than the mind?Whenever there is conflict, tension, fear (which are the fertile ground for growing anger inside), there is duality.And duality separates instead of uniting.And separation nourrish isolation. Isolation means shrinking, and shrinking is the opposite of Life energy which is eternally expanding from and towards the Divine.So, whenever we feel isolated, disconnected from our inner source, reactions are meant to be..And reactions to reactions are nothing but a vicious circle.If someone spit at me with a provocative attitude, (never happened to me though), I think that first, I would be surprised! I'll have 1 or 2 seconds of surprise, then I'll look at the person who spat on me.Of course the very first immediate feeling that surfaces in me would be a defensive reaction.. maybe by telling the other person something like "are you crazy or what?"Then I will wipe the spit off my face (or whatever) and I will stay calm, get closer to him and ask "can you tell me why you did that to me?"... It may sound naive maybe, but it happened to me to be "victim" of provocative behaviors from others (maybe begging children in the streets..) and I remember that since I started yoga, anger became an opportunity to learn more about my self, by watching whatever is felt and perceived before anger bubbles up, during it expression and after it fades away..So I will ask "why" the guy spat on me.. just because I need to understand so that I can settle down the whole bubbling violence and negativity, for him and myself.And most of the time, the very attitude of staying firmly grounded in myself, and opening myself to the other through dialogue would be surprizingly efficient!And whatever happens to me happens for a reason..the reason may not be found on the surface, mentally, through reflecting.. it can be deeply rooted, in the energy and I may not be aware of it..In that case, no other way than sitting quietly, closing my eyes and tuning to my breath.. that simple step brings the connection back to the inner core.. immediately, it quiets the anger bubbling waves..and this creates a gap between "me" and the anger.Then I'm in a state where I can LOOK from a distance to whatever happened to me.. and understand the whole process..and when I can see and understand (not mentally, but directly from the inner eye), acceptance comes by itself.I'm not a victim anymore. The other was as helpless and victim as me.And then eventually a deep gratitude can rise.. and it happened to me to be overwhelmed by this feeling.. and this is 'miraculous'. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 03:46:48 AM
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namaste Chrissy,
sh*t is smthg very natural and good for the body when it comes and good for the soil as well and it's been labeled by people as... and since the subject is open a while back some friends of mine were in the presence of a suffi from da7yet beirut who was laughing in ecstasy and saying to them that he sees God in the chicken and so on... and hallaj and Ibn Arabi in specific and a lot of the other suffi and indian and... saints make the same claim.
now speaking for myself, i see everything in this world without any exception as an indicator to that(the real self) it's just waves on the ocean and i am that the source thus i don't need a specific emotion or anything to inquire the waves are all around me everything is an indicator to me and the me has to be dropped as you know .
about the ongoing topic thank you for adding your reply to it, i agree with most of it especially the responsibility part.
we both agree on the fact that violence breeds violence and an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and that diplomacy should be the first action to be undertaken like in the situation which happened with brother gumpi but in case that doesn't work well this body or ego name it whatever you like is nobody's doormat and i will defend it by any means necessary and i don't have to live in fear or be looked at as inferior by anyone and this isn't pride this is a basic human right.
i know how to let all these negative emotions melt, and you may say that i am one in whom suffering is almost to non existence even during body pain but the thing is i live in the real world at the same time and some things have to be dealt with by extreme measures and just imagine yourself being pushed around and oppressed by a religious radical who doesn't see things but in his own way and diplomacy has no place i guess it's obvious what my reaction would be toward him.
and in case i was in the west and was called a sand nigger by someone i would come up to the person and ask him what have i done to him and why is he saying this to me and try to understand the whole thing and resolve it peacefully right on the spot and this is the best way to deal with such a situation.
but in case he insists on being rude then in the end i'll be rude like wise i don't want the guy making a habit out of it whenever he sees me...
in the end we don't wanna get stuck in a cycle of endless debate, each person is responsible for himself like you said and should act according to what he sees fit and a lot of the reasonable options have been laid out here and to each the right to choose what he sees as rightly fit.
kindest regards,
Ananda
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 06:12:50 AM
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It goes without saying that being physically aggressed requires an appropriate response..
shalom to the East and the West.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 07:32:55 AM
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There is often a question of whether physical aggression has occurred. I believe that is where a non-violent nature is most important. For instance, in the movies you often see someone who fights all the time taking a punch to the face and taking no further action. How can this be that he is not defending his honor?
Because this man is so strong within himself that a punch to the face meant nothing to him, and he has taken it in stride, as an expression of how the aggressor felt, not as a blow to his honor.
Personally I may not be that strong, but what I am very careful about is escalation. So I won't be the first to throw a punch. In other words if a knife is pulled, I don't shoot a gun.
If we stay with the rule of not escalating, it usually keeps you out of trouble with the law, and also helps you not to regret your actions.
So if someone spits on the ground, it does not warrant a punch to his face. However, sometimes the threat of escalation is quite useful. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 07:41:32 AM
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people like the Buddha and Jesus don't agree with you, but i do at least for the time being but i don't know if i am going to keep the same stream of thought i have now while progressing on the path for as i've said before people like Ether and Shanti are older and have more wisdom and experience than i do so...
i am all open for change. you know!
and hopefully all of us Arabs could have peace one day with the shalom people (hopefully soon, now that deserves a samyama!)
love,
Ananda |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 07:43:23 AM
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| we cross posted Ether |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 11:12:32 AM
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What did Jesus do when He was spit on by an angry mob of hatemongerers as he carried His cross to Calvary? What would He have done in your opinion even if He wasn't carrying a cross and there was only one person around and that person had chose to spit on Him?
Love,
Carson |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 12:19:18 PM
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Carson,
Jesus would have cracked him one on the jaw.. I'm pretty sure of it.
Love |
Edited by - Akasha on Aug 04 2009 12:20:13 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 1:18:09 PM
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| i remember Jesus being aggressive at the temple when he through out those merchants, so i'll be aggressive with the guy who spat on him and it would be my pleasure. |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 4:06:25 PM
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There are claims that Jesus studied yoga in the Himalayas,India & Tibet(See Here or Here)
There are references to a lost manuscript, Novotich a Russian reporter and the Humis monastery which it is alleged Jesus visited on his travels. The Life of Saint Issa,allegedly referring to jesus, is mentioned too, Issa being his spiritual name.
On that basis he could have also studied Kung Fu as well. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 4:22:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
i remember Jesus being aggressive at the temple when he through out those merchants, so i'll be aggressive with the guy who spat on him and it would be my pleasure.
I remember reading about Jesus acting in a lot of other ways as well.
I specifically remember Him saying:
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."
—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV
and
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."
—Luke 6:27-31. NIV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnin..._other_cheek
You can take what you want from that, but what I personally take is that if someone "spits in your direction" treat that person as a brother. But that's just me
Love,
Carson
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 04 2009 4:25:34 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 5:33:07 PM
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Also spit had a whole different meaning in Jesus' day. People lived in the desert and didn't have bottled water. I remember some story of Jesus spitting in someone's eye to heal them. That would be considered repulsive today.
Spit was valuable like blood. |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 5:39:24 PM
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quote:
You can take what you want from that, but what I personally take is that if someone "spits in your direction" treat that person as a brother. But that's just me
Me as well.
Emaho!
gri |
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Dealing with anger
