|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 08:10:30 AM
|
I do not mean to incite any kind of racial hatred at all. That is not my intention with this post. However, where i live (London) there are young black people who spit on the ground when i walk past them. Whenever this happens i feel anger and i think i should say something to these people but i just let it go. I feel absolutely no responsibility to "love" such people which is contrary perhaps to the yoga teachings.
So i wanted to know how other people here would deal with this if it happened to them.
It just happened to me in the most blatant way and i still feel anger. I am certain i did nothing to deserve this and it happens everywhere all the time here to other people who do nothing to deserve it. And you can never be sure that you won't get beaten up for speaking out. I don't feel i should act like a doormat either. |
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 09:55:12 AM
|
There are several facets to this situation.
Most important is you need to deal with your anger. That is done by experiencing it fully, in other words be conscious of every feeling it gives you, what part of the body it is in, what it feels like.
The second part is expressing your anger, which you have done here. Usually you should tell the person who made you angry, but that is not appropriate in this situation.
Another aspect is the reason they are doing that. They most likely are picking a type of person who looks like they will react. So either you look like you disapprove of them, or look sensitive, or vulnerable, or who knows what, maybe just being white. It is quite likely a cowardly act they wouldn't do if you looked tough.
The most important aspect is meditation. Enough meditation and things like this will bother you much less or not at all.
Often you can de-fuse a situation like that by saying "hi" to them, in a very non-chalant manner.
Either before they spit, or after, it doesn't matter. This would convey that there is no animosity and you recognize them as a person. In my culture this would say several things. The way I say it would convey that I am not threatened by them, and spitting means nothing to me, and i don't care if they do it. Also it woud say I recognize you as an equal, and there is no tension between us.
But you would have to judge if this is appropriate in your culture and situation.
Some people could be set off by it. It has to be said with no emotion at all.
So the safest solution is ignore it, and meditate more!
|
 |
|
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 11:02:29 AM
|
Hi EF,
I don't think i look threatening at all. I am not a huge bloke, not small either. And i don't stare at people (that is something that annoys me by the way, when people look at me they seem to hold the gaze way longer than i do).
There is nothing that can be done about this. I just have to walk away. But i suppose what i am trying to understand here is how this kind of behaviour is justified. I mean, as far as i am aware i am innocent, it is bad things happening to good people. How can this be squared?
It is not appropriate to say hello at all. We don't do that here to strangers. I can tell you that if i smiled at people like this they would go ahead and spit anyway. There is a real problem going on with young black men. They feel isolated perhaps, i don't know what it is. |
|
|
|
AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 11:08:11 AM
|
| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 11:32:29 AM
|
You are surprised that bad things happen to innocent people? What planet are you from?
You're probably clearing karma. Another thing that meditation helps with, and eventually makes life easier because of it. |
|
|
|
Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 11:53:04 AM
|
Those who hate you, those who would harm you, obstructors on your path to unsurpassed happiness and enlightenment are your mothers. They are your teachers. Those moments are an opportunity to gain victory over death by defeating your true enemy, confusion.
Those who hate you and so forth are not other than you, are not outside of you. They are manifesting as your karma body to instruct you in patience, faith, love, and in testing your samadhi, they give you an opportunity to examine whether you continue to cling to selfhood and an opportunity to examine your mind to determine once and for all, is that anger real? Thus, they are teaching you wisdom, which is the essence of truth, virtue, the only real aid you can provide anyone, and the only meaningful act this life has to offer. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 01 2009 12:17:47 PM |
|
|
|
Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 12:14:54 PM
|
hi gumpi, don't wanna sound like the tough guy here with the big ego but i sort of been in a similar situation like that twice 5 to 6 years back but i didn't turn the other cheek i've stood up for myself got the beating of a life time and did some beating at the same time and if i have to go through it all again i would no matter what will happen you live once why not live with your head up; at least i have no regrets or any bad feelings left and if i acted otherwise i would've been through more hell.
now you have my example which is similar to that of which krishna told to arjuna in the bhagavad gita about fighting for honor and such even after realizing unity and oneness and another good example is the story of Al Hussein the grandson of the prophet Muhamad who with a big shortage in men and weapons went ahead against a huge army and died honorably and i know that this seems a bit too kamikazi but whatever may happen trust me you won't regret it.
i should point out that i come from the middle east and we sort of have this mentality ingrained in us from childhood even among christians especially here in Lebanon and the first of the suicidal bombings done in my country was done by a christian teenager in south Lebanon.
another approach is that of gandhi's peaceful resistance which seems more reasonable but you'll still get some beating when you speak up and stand your ground but at least you would've stood up for yourself.
or you can follow Ether's way which is a very reasonable way, more reasonable than the ones i shared and i am still a bit young in comparison to ether who does have more experience and wisdom than i do i admit that but i still would go with my first choice.
in the end you have to rely on yourself in such situations and find your own way.
A |
|
|
|
Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 12:37:16 PM
|
Hi gumpi,
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
So i wanted to know how other people here would deal with this if it happened to them.
This did happen to me, though I only remember the situation very vaguely.
I ignored the situation and walked by, and I remember that I tried to decide whether
this guy wanted just to provoke offending me, or if it really was an
expression of his hate towards whites in general.
As I didn't know the guy personally, I knew that it was not directed
to me personally.
What could/would I do in such a situation ?
I think only if I am prepared to spend sufficient time with the guy
would it be of any use (to both of us). There is no quick solution
to such a situation, and I agree, being a doormat would not be helpful.
my 2 cts
Wolfgang
|
|
|
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 12:50:03 PM
|
Ananda,
I totally can understand it from your point of view. I ask myself, WHY DOES THIS HAVE TO BE? But you are right. depending on the circumstances i can speak out or not.
i am not a big huge person, just in the middle somewhere, but i know i can defend myself if i need to, whether that be getting a beating or at least inflicting harm on the perpetrator. But this kind of thing is not in line with Gandhi's doctrine of non-violence. So i feel a little taken aback.
By the way, i have reacted before 2 times to rude people and they turned out to be cowards.
|
|
|
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 12:57:10 PM
|
Hi Wolfgang,
I tend to think it has more to do with a hatred of whites than something i personally did wrong.
And that is why this issue is delicate.
|
|
|
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 1:12:16 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
You are surprised that bad things happen to innocent people? What planet are you from?
You're probably clearing karma. Another thing that meditation helps with, and eventually makes life easier because of it.
Ether,
Your question must be sarcasm because i clearly live on planet earth.
Truly, i think you are living on another planet if you believe that i am clearing away karma. Meditation does nothing to stop earthquakes, famines, war, disease, pain, and death. You, my friend, are living in the unreal world.
I don't take your advice as seriously as i could. And that is a good thing. You seem to have apperently completely misunderstood my original post.
Let me ask you personally - what would you do?
And PS I have very good control of my emotions. |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 2:08:15 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
You are surprised that bad things happen to innocent people? What planet are you from?
You're probably clearing karma. Another thing that meditation helps with, and eventually makes life easier because of it.
Ether,
Your question must be sarcasm because i clearly live on planet earth.
Truly, i think you are living on another planet if you believe that i am clearing away karma. Meditation does nothing to stop earthquakes, famines, war, disease, pain, and death. You, my friend, are living in the unreal world.
You misunderstood my post. What I meant by what planet do you live on is how can you be surprised that bad things happen to innocent people when the things you mentioned above happen everyday?
Meditation does not stop all bad things in the world.
It stops bad karma from your life only, and helps clear bad karma. So once your bad karma is cleared you personally will no longer be involved with the suffering mentioned above. It doesn't magically fix things for other people. You have to make an effort to do that.
quote:
Let me ask you personally - what would you do?
And PS I have very good control of my emotions.
I didn't say anything about controlling your emotions. Emotions need to be experienced, not controlled. Attempts to control them often lead to storing them, which causes bad side effects.
What would i do?
I would probably say hi to him without any emotional charge. This often de-fuses the situation. But at the same time I would assume he was doing it for some reason that has nothing to do with me. I have often confronted people in situations like this that made me mad, and found it had nothing to do with me.
But for some people, especially those who haven't meditated as much as me, it would rais a lot of anger. So you can't handle it the same way as I do.
In that case, the best thing is express your anger later to someone else, but completely experience the anger without suppressing it.
The second best is to express your anger to the guy himself.
And the third best is to confront him about it and cause a fight.
That is not a good choice because it creates more bad karma.
|
|
|
|
Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 2:28:22 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Ananda,
I totally can understand it from your point of view. I ask myself, WHY DOES THIS HAVE TO BE? But you are right. depending on the circumstances i can speak out or not.
i am not a big huge person, just in the middle somewhere, but i know i can defend myself if i need to, whether that be getting a beating or at least inflicting harm on the perpetrator. But this kind of thing is not in line with Gandhi's doctrine of non-violence. So i feel a little taken aback.
By the way, i have reacted before 2 times to rude people and they turned out to be cowards.
hello again gumpi,
just to point out smthg the mahatma Gandhi got a beating on several occasions and so did the people who went on protesting with him and even though the beaten happened and was still going on they stood their grounds.
and concerning rude people, well these are the ones who are the most scared and they act the way they do bcz they are afraid and they need\want to prove smthg...
concerning anger and such emotions, in case you don't hit the iron when it's hot and some bad emotions are still there; over here i practice samyama and awareness\inquiry and guess what it totally works and meditation is what got me here "to a lesser state of suffering and more peace of mind and bliss."
before awareness i used to get angry, after awareness i still do get angry but i am most of the times aware to that anger from it's roots and i choose the intensity of it's expression and i know that it's just a dark cloud which will pass by...
let silence lead you, let it all go into your samyama\stillness and it's weird and surprising but things will work out for what is best .
A |
|
|
|
Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 2:42:20 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Hi Wolfgang,
I tend to think it has more to do with a hatred of whites than something i personally did wrong.
And that is why this issue is delicate.
here if we debate on this subject brother gumpi, we would be debating on ignorance thus it's void and there's no need for it in an aware spiritual community like the one we have here bcz no matter how much we'll chat about it we won't do a thing so it's best if we'd meditate on it and spread silence out and share with others in order to calm the hatred.
anyways i guess most of us here are beyond race; religion and some even beyond enlightenment..
just let go and let God, if you are still angry remember it's just a thought an object just watch and inquire why and answers and peace will come i don't know how and why but they just do.
light and love,
Ananda |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 3:30:45 PM
|
A black guy near here went to a certain restaurant and waited a long time to be served. He assumed it was because the waiter hates blacks. A Mexican guy went to the same restaurant, had to wait a long time and assumed it was because they hate Latinos.
The black guy and latino were talking with their white friend and the subject of the restaurant came up. The white guy said the food is OK, but "I wouldn't go there; the service sucks!"
So don't assume people have racial prejudices.
By the way, this is a true story. |
|
|
|
Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 5:44:00 PM
|
This thread is titled, dealing with anger. Not dealing with racism. Racism is a social problem. Anger is an emotion which may be addressed spiritually. All this talk about standing up for yourself and race, is way off. Anger is something addressed directly by meditation practice. When you see your mind for what it is, anger disappears like fog in summer. These situations must be addressed with wisdom, not with scripture or examples from the past. For that you need to see the naked essence of your mind. Love is the essence of all that is. You can't just project love on to others or wish them a lovey day. You have to see the essence of your mind so that the possibilities of any moment may bear the fruit of love.
Until then, you must keep to ahimsa.
You know Krishna told Arjuna to stay in fight because he was trying to do a cowardly thing, which was flee from defending his land against an unjust invasion. That would have been wrong and resulted in the loss of innocent lives. It was not about honor. He was the greatest warrior of the clan, and without him, they could not defend themselves. That situation is of a totally different caliber from someone spitting on you or disrespecting you.
If a man strikes your cheek, offer him the other one. What does it matter to you? But if a man intends to murder 500 saints, kill him, and prevent him from wandering endlessly in the hell realms. When to turn your cheek and when to strike out is based on wisdom, not rules, not examples.
For a yogi, what's the point of self-respect? This body is a just a shell; it's a temporary home. If someone is starving you will cut off your leg and feed it to them. What is the point of having a good name, or to be treated with respect? Respect and honor is just an ego game.
Look inside your mind to reveal the essence of loving kindness and compassion. Look and look until you see the illusion of emotional displays. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 01 2009 5:58:11 PM |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 7:02:00 PM
|
Yes I agree ahimsa prevents further accumulation of bad karma.
But the methods of ahimsa you write about Konchok, are difficult to impossible for the average modern person to practice. If you are a saint or monk that is good advice. But if you live in the city filled with non-spiritual people, and two meditations are your only spirituality, turning the other cheek can often lead to storing of anger. This stiffens the muscles and weakens the body, until it is released, then you wonder why you are so angry about little things. Or some people never release it; they just die prematurely, in much pain.
So I think a middle ground can be found where we closely examine the anger generated, experience it fully, and return to meditation practices.
The interesting spiritual thing that will be found is that the anger has nothing to do with the guy spitting on the street. So any amount of examination of the situation that caused it is a waste of time.
This is hard to understand for the modern, city dwelling mind.
But through meditation you will discover this, and it simplifies the clearing out process, because all you need to do is watch the anger energy as you experience it fully. Put all your attention on it. This is the same with all emotions. They are calling for your attention. Don't ignore or belittle them.
this may be the same as you are saying Konchok, I don't know.
I fully agree about honor and respect being an ego game.
Funny thing is you have to play that game somewhat, but you don't have to be attached to it.
You have to treat others with respect, and you have to hold your head up as if you are proud.
It is the best way to deal with people.
But you don't need to fight back until they come to your door. Don't assume someone is starting a fight until you see the fist coming at you. It's the same with war; don't assume others are waging war until they cross your border with weapons. To do otherwise will keep you in eternal fighting.
|
|
|
|
Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 7:14:30 PM
|
There is nothing personal happening in the event that has any substantiality unless it is entertained and chewed upon. What within you is being offended? When you look deep is the silence within you offended?
You can ponder and guess as to why the others would do such a thing directed at you. But really all you have to work with is what is happening within you. Where does the anger come from? Can you find its source beyond thought/memory and its physical sensation? If you think you find its source don't stop there, go deeper and search and see what you find. Also see if the anger has any real power in this moment beyond a feeling reaction imprinted in the body that is associated with the memory. Are you making plans for an imagined possible future event? That too is based on the memory of the event. Does the event still exist beyond memory? |
|
|
|
Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 7:43:31 PM
|
While this topic is about dealing with anger, and great advice was given for this specific situation...I also think there is a time to defend yourself. If things started to get violent, it can escalate to become a threat to your life. I don't think it's wise to let yourself be killed on the street. Sometimes accumulating bad karma is inescapable...my view is that it's best to be natural with your actions and don't stick too rigidly to a code of ethics.
Someone spitting at you is highly offensive, but not worth doing anything about. The best action is to continue walking, since it causes no extra problems. Eventually the anger passes. |
|
|
|
Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 9:19:02 PM
|
I live in East Oakland, California. The reason I practice dharma is to avoid getting killed. Kindness and wisdom together are the best weapon. Etherfish what you are describing stores the karmic seed of anger to sprout later. One should neither ignore, nor repress the anger. The best practice is to liberate the anger on the spot. Not repress it, liberate it. Don't just let it pass, liberate it at the moment. This skill is why great yogis don't experience strong emotions.
This is done by looking directly at the nature of that anger and trying to see, does it have a basis, a shape, a color, is it inside, outside, in the stomach, the head? Once one directly experiences its insubstantiality, one can easily release the feeling, and it subsides on its own within moments. How do you think warriors are able to remain calm in battle?
The nature of mind is forever pure like crystal, nothing can tarnish it. It's like teflon, nothing can stick to it. If one realizes the true state of the mind, the energy of wrathfulness manifests as a mirror-like wisdom. One can transform the circumstances into what will ameliorate them. This is not about a code of ethics: irrelevant. This is about life as meditation practice: learning to balance no attachment and no focus. When the mind is free from all foci, one has accomplished the yogi's feat. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 01 2009 9:56:59 PM |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2009 : 11:35:07 PM
|
No argument here Konchok,
I don't recommend anything to store anger at all.
I assume you are talking about what I said about expressing it to someone else later. What I meant is passing someone on the street is often not enough time to express anger. So you should talk to a friend or even by yourself, express it as soon as possible. |
|
|
|
Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 02:54:06 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
You know Krishna told Arjuna to stay in fight because he was trying to do a cowardly thing, which was flee from defending his land against an unjust invasion. That would have been wrong and resulted in the loss of innocent lives. It was not about honor. He was the greatest warrior of the clan, and without him, they could not defend themselves. That situation is of a totally different caliber from someone spitting on you or disrespecting you.
i don't know which version you've read so there might be a difference, i read a translated one into arabic and in it i remember krishna telling arjuna in a clear way about the word honor by protecting the clan.
the buddhist point of view brother Konshok is one of many around here and it's a reasonable way to handle things if the person in question has enough inner silence to go back to the source of anger and let it melt and flower ecstatic bliss instead.
i remember the Buddha once being in not such a lovely condition where a man came and cursed him and argued with him badly in front of his student and he remained calm in front of him and after the whole thing was over Ananda (not me ) asked him why didn't you reply to that guy and just kept on silent.
then the Buddha with his wisdom told Ananda and the other students "when a person comes to you holding a gift and offers it to you, if you do not open that gift to who it's fruits remain" (to the one who offered the gift)
and like wise in this situation, the karmas of the person who cursed the Buddha are going to remain his.
now concerning honor and such, you know me i know the whole enlightened intellectual thought... but to each his own ways of thinking and me and you think differently this is obvious and we are raised in a different way and if a person or ten are going to spit at me or spit while i am walking the streets than as sure as hell i am not going to shut up even though this might mean i am going to die or be seriously injured i mean i would at least speak up for myself no matter what the consequences.
in the end each lives in a certain community, and the wise lives without any attachment but plays the game the way it is.
it should be pointed out that while i was in those situations i spoke of even 6 years back i was as awake as hell in the witness state.
thk you for sharing your point of view brother Konshok.
A |
|
|
|
Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 02:57:54 AM
|
| p.s: it's fun using the word Hell |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 09:10:05 AM
|
| So brother Ananda, given the situation that someone is walking by you, and angrily spits on the street as they pass you, you would feel this requires some sort of action? |
|
|
|
Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 09:16:02 AM
|
Hi Gumpi,
When you see the man spit at you and "see" in your mind, it has nothing to do with you.... he is not doing it to "you" but an image of you he has in his head (a white man), you can let it go. As long as you don't see this, he and many others, in their own way, are going to keep hurting you. People are only working on an image they have of you. In this case, your skin color is what that guy is spitting at.. not you. In another case, the son you should be in your father's image is what he shows disappointment at , not you, Or your boss is angry with the image of an employee he has in his head of you, not you. In this case, if the man who spit at you, personally knew you, he would not have spit at you, but would continue spitting at the people behind you.
Also, in our minds, spitting is "labeled" as "bad".. what if we lived in a country where they greet each other by spitting at you, we would label that as an "honor". Like burping, in some countries, if people don't burp after a meal, then the host is disappointed that the food was not to their liking, however, in most other countries it would be considered rude to burp out loud.
There are three things I try and identify, when something happens that threatens "me", and once I see through the situation, it helps me let go:
1) See the person who is trying to hurt you is suffering more than you are, if he needs to stand at the side of the road and spit at you. Say a prayer for him to heal. Send positive energy (loving) toward the situation for healing, and not more negative energy by getting angry.
2) See it is not personal. He is not doing it to "you", but an image he has of you.
3) Drop the "label" that someone spitting at you is "bad". The more energy you give the thought with anger, frustration, judgment, the bigger the incident will get. It was an incident that took at the most 10 seconds to happen.. we have given it already 24hrs of attention. |
|
|
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 09:53:47 AM
|
Shanti,
You put it very nicely. The issue i am trying to raise is not so much, if at all, that this man spit at me and that made me angry. The issue is, can we all honestly say that ahimsa is always, without question, the appropriate response?
There is a story about a snake that used to terrify people by raising its hood when they came near to its hole to keep them away. One day, someone told that snake that instead of being so hostile he should be friendly to win God's favor. The next time this person and snake met the person was astonished at the condition of the snake, who appeared battered and beaten. He asked, "what happened?" The snake replied, "i let down my hood" The person responded, "i told you to be friendly but i didn't say you couldn't hiss!".
Moral of the story: it is ok to react with non-violence but not to be a doormat.
Of course, someone spitting on the ground near you as you walk by is not an incident to get vexed over or cause a fight over. I am not angry at the actual incident, i am angry because i am trying to point out that there are lots of thing in life that happen to innocent people who don't deserve it. This is a bigger issue.
As for the karma theory, i am supposed to accept that my bad karma from the past has caused this incident? But if that was true, how far back in time do you want to go? Do you realise that there could be no end to bad karma? Do you want me to accept that Jesus Christ was crucified for bad karma? I'm sorry, i do not buy the karma theory. First off, you have to explain why karma exists in the first place - and this question has never adequately been answered ever.
Another point i want to make is, assuming we accept the reality of spiritual experiences and that they genuinely occur - how can you know which of them are real and not illusory? Intuition can be wrong. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Dealing with anger
