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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 07:22:36 AM
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It appears to be the case that performing mudras, fasting, breathing exercises etc can cause a human being to simulate a type of hibernation. One of the most important techniques for achieving this is khechari mudra. As it exerts pressure on various nerves and arteries in the neck, connects to the medulla oblongata, which connects to the vagus nerve, and a further connection to the pineal gland (hence sambhavi mudra), blood pressure is significantly reduced, metabolism decreases, and the cold temperature of the hibernation spot all allow for a state of relative suspended animation of the body.
In the kriya yoga tradition there is an emphasis on the state of breathlessness or kevala khumbaka. By means of lowering the metabolism it is said that the five senses retire inwards literally, which is the same as the state of deep sleep when the sensory and motor nerves cease working. This is called pratyahara. Further from this the states of samadhi are entered with ease since the information from all modes of sensory dependence are eliminated completely, which makes concentration perfect.
We know that a state of human suspended animation is possible because of the facts of the case of Sadhu Haridas. What we don't know is what the detailed specific physiological parameters are that elicit this state but the practices of yoga give the experience nevertheless. I think it would be extremely interesting to test such a state and try to figure out how it is accomplished.
Clearly, being buried in a pit seems to be one of the keys to this, since the coldness of the air in the environment allows the metabolism to drop the most. Similar effects should be able to be achieved in cold water. This is probably one of the factors that allows deep sea divers to hold their breath for extended periods of time. The actual respiration rate doesn't need to drop much lower than 3 breaths per minute while on land. Curiosly though, while the lungs continue to work, the pressure exerted by kechari mudra seems to somehow calm the heart, so that the metabolism slows down very much even on land. Which indicates to me that the yogi has to be buried fairly quickly so that the atmospheric temperature allows the state of suspended animation to continue for long periods of time.
More research needs to be done on khechari mudra and how it affects the heart. Clearly it involves the medulla and the vagus nerve but i am not a physician so i don't know how that works. Although the vagus nerve has been compared to the kundalini before.
Some might ask why i am interested in all this. The short, simple answer is that i simply just want to further research into the physiology of yoga states to try to comprehend the processes involved. I think it could shed light on various things. If i had the above information at my disposal when i first encountered the kriya yoga path, i believe i wouldn't have spent so long trying to figure out how it worked. And so i think research into this can help others too. |
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spinal_tap
Indonesia
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 07:46:21 AM
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| Thanks a lot for sharing the info gumpi. I agree that it is much easier to accomplish things in yoga or any other similar practice if we have more information like this. researches like this will definitely help beginners like me a lot. Thanks again. =) |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 08:51:31 AM
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sorry to sound 'rude', but knowledge is what it is. It is dead information good to feed the mind/thoughts. No more no less.
knowing is different, opposite. It's a direct perception.
If you want to understand a rose, you can go on peeling petal after petal, analyzing, trying to mentally understand, and you will eventually understand it in terms of protons, neutrons and electrons...but you'll NEVER get the essence of the rose unless you drop all the knowledge and mind and just smell directly.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 09:38:31 AM
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i agree that analysing things doesn't substitute for experiencing them. However, i disagree on the conclusion most people make after this. They usually say it is "better" somehow to experience therefore, whereas i say it is "broader" to get a bigger picture. Or rather, experience and analyse, do both. Why should you not make use of the mind God has given you?
Don't you think more people would be attracted to Yoga if they had some kind of understanding of how and why the body reacts the way it does from a physical point of view? Because quite frankly, it took me almost a decade trying to figure out some kind of similarity between kriya yoga and its effects on the physical body, whereas most people simply accept the conclusions on how it works without scrutinizing it, which i feel is very un-discriminatory. If somebody comes along and tells you they are a "Master" and they cannot explain the process of a yoga technique to you or answer your questions as to how it works at any level, you would be right to not place your faith in that person. |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 10:40:07 AM
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I have no faith in any person. Even my experiences I don't make any conclusion out of them. I simply take note of what is happening, what is changing/moving inside and simply leave it and keep going on and in.
I agree that maybe, generally speaking, it's easier for women to surrender to a master's energies and presence, without the need for understanding what it's all about scientifically..
I'm not saying mind is useless. It's the most powerful weapon when it's serving your heart. But the real understanding won't come from knowledge.
A master won't do anything to you if you are not willing to open yourself. And asking for guarantees to trust him, asking for informations to accept to open yourself is simply deluding yourself.
Coz even when you are satisfied with getting information, the mind will find other questions, and it can go on and on.
Meanwhile, you could have spent time smelling the fragrance of a rose, without even thinking "mmmmm, it smells good!"....
Simply bowing down to the rose and smelling... and feeling..
I'm not a teacher/preacher. I'm just trying to share the truth I'm in touch within.. but even this won't do much for you..
Peace. |
Edited by - christiane on Jul 28 2009 10:42:23 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 12:38:40 PM
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Questions are good
I don't know why you began with saying women are more susceptible to gurus but i don't believe i gave any indication in this thread that i was referring to anything like that.
I don't need to analyse your words as if i am doing a scientific experiment or anything! lol I just want things to be clearer for myself and all i said was that the mind is useful.
It is nice to receive replies from most of the people that post on this forum. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 12:41:50 PM
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Thanks Spinal tap. (nice nic by the way!)
You hit the nail on the head for me. |
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spinal_tap
Indonesia
40 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2009 : 10:33:04 AM
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Dear Christiane,
In my opinion, there are different kind of people out there. And different ways of enjoying things too.
Perhaps Gumpi's way of enjoying the rose is by knowing why it smells so good.
Whereas you enjoy the rose by believing that someone/something made it smells good for us all to indulge in it.
I am happy that you decided to color gumpi's thread with your individuality. After all, the many colors of our individuality is a part of nature's beauty. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 7:14:22 PM
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quote:
what the detailed specific physiological parameters are that elicit this state but the practices of yoga give the experience nevertheless.
The physiological parameters fall significantly from the normal values. For example respiratory rate is about one for every 45min even at the state of pratyahara. Heartrate, BP and core body temp fall to very low values. On into pratyahara over 24h continuously one moves from pratyahara to meditation. At that level respiration falls further down. Heart and blood circulation also goes very very low. On in to meditation for few days continuously one reaches savikalpa/nirvikalps samadhi(s). All physiological parameters comes to stand still at this level. For example respiration rate and heart rate is almost zero. No or very feeble blood circulation. core body temperature is equal to ambient temperature. This does not mean he died. The prana and the cosmic energy which is trapped inside maintains the cells alive. the prana keeps circulating via all the channels of the body. Neuronal functions are almost ceased except few neuronal centers at cortex and hippocampus functioning. Over 15 days of continuous practice after attaining pratyahara one attains the state of Jeevasamadhi.
quote:
Clearly, being buried in a pit seems to be one of the keys to this, since the coldness of the air in the environment allows the metabolism to drop the most
It is not the circumstances control the yogi. At very advance level he controls the circumstances. As a matter of fact he can control anything and everything.
quote:
The actual respiration rate doesn't need to drop much lower than 3 breaths per minute while on land
It actually drops much much lower then this...
quote:
Which indicates to me that the yogi has to be buried fairly quickly...
Yogies who attain Jeevasamadhi are not buried. They walk down to the pit/basement and sit down there in padmasana and start their practice...the yogi usually ask to close the pit with a rock after he sat down there.
Hope this helps... |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 08:15:44 AM
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Hello showup,
You state that the heart rate goes very low but do not indicate that it stops altogether. This tells me that it is not a state of suspended animation at all but simply just a lowering a metabolism
Please tell me how this low metabolism is achieved?
Also, you mentioned Jeeva Samadhi, which i looked up, and this is an indefinite burial, not a public demonstration of samadhi.
You said the rate of breathing goes lower than 3 per minute. How do you know this? And how is such a thing achieved?
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 12:46:32 PM
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quote:
You state that the heart rate goes very low but do not indicate that it stops altogether
it will stop at some point into Jeevasamadhi but not in savikalpa/nirvikalps samadhies.
quote:
This tells me that it is not a state of suspended animation but simply just a lowering a metabolism
Jeevasamadhi is not a state of suspended animation because it is not induced by external means. It is induced by the yogi internally.
Have a look at the following video...
http://www.bostonhealingtao.com/med...research.php
The mummy they are talking about is a Jeevasamadhi. The surface body temperature of those yogies goes up because body dissipates the heat generated by metabolism so that the core body temperature indeed stays very low. Heart rate and circulation is directly dependent on body temperature...hence which also goes down as one progress in yoga...
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Edited by - showup on Sep 12 2009 07:11:23 AM |
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littlejerry
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2009 : 09:15:21 AM
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GUMPI.... QUESTIONING...
I've been coasting along since i started this. When i'm by myself is when my mind is most active. I recognize what i'm thinking, and let it keep going yada yada lol unless it feels "unnatural" whatever.
This forum got me thinking last night. Well it was questioning. Questioning my desire for truth. Inner truth? Outter truth? with inner truth comes outter truth? with outter truth comes inner truth? lol idk i knew i was doing it but i let it happen it... was somewhat worried because i hadnt done that much thinking in a while. But i went out got with friends and was at peace.
While doing this thinking and being somewhat worried by the amount of thinking i was doing i asked myself a solution to all this thinking/questioning and my answer was practice. On that note... when i sit to meditate (i just started) i can only sit 4 to 5 minutes.. its hard to keep my back straight... i think i read to sit against a wall? well when i do that my lower back isnt touching the wall. But when i'm not against anything i cant hold the position for very long. I'm not too concerned about it i'd just like some tips if anyone has any or suggestions.
"She eats her peas one at a time" |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2009 : 10:06:12 AM
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HI jerry,
It sounds to me like you are setting yourself up for meditation in a way that will create frustration. my advice to you is you treat it like you would if you were going to go to sleep except remain aware.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2009 : 10:16:47 AM
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Showup,
I am sorry but you have given no evidence of the things you claim. I am not about to blindly believe your claims without some kind of evidence.
The video you posted a link to is based on Herbert Bensons research. You must not have actually seen it or read anything about the results because the results showed that metabolism dropped only a tiny amount compared to the claims you are making about yogis.
I didn't mention jeeva samadhi in my OP. it appears to me to be a practice whereby yogis are willfully commiting suicide. Eventually the air in pit will run out and no amount of lowered metabolism will save those people from suffocating to death.
I do not believe there is such a thing as prana. Prana is the old yogis attempt at trying to explain altered states of consciousness and their experiences with nerve currents that they have manipulated through conscious intervention of the autonomic nervous system. They had nowhere near the level of knowledge we do about the human body, although their intuitive insights weren't bad considering the time period they lived in.
Everything i mentioned about hibernation is based on facts i have collected after researching the internet and books thoroughly. In not ONE case will you find any instance of any yogi suspending their metabolism completely through means of non-physical agents such as prana. All the conditions for lowering the metabolism are accounted for by physical means.
Also, Yogis do not have supernatural abilities or siddhis. They cannot do anything and everything, as you put it. One of the siddhis mentioned by Patanjali is the ability for the yogi to increase their body mass to the size of a mountain! There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that such a thing has ever occurred. Such a feat would outrank the miracle of krishna's lifting a hill, and he was supposed to be God incarnate. Besides this, i cannot think of any practical utility for a person to increase their body size to that of a mountain. This is nothing but superstitious myth, which originated in the dark ages.
If you can provide any evidence of the claims you make i will be interested. i won't be holding my breath though. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2009 : 10:38:25 AM
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Science isn't as advanced as people would like to believe. Just because we can do miraculous things with science dosn't mean it is all-encompassing. Science can't measure life force, or contain it , or create it. That's what prana is - life force. But since it can't be controlled in any way, that is no reason to deny its existence.
I think any scientist would agree that there is a difference between a dead person and one who is alive. Then the obvious question is: what is this difference?
Scientists would probably give it some name that relegates it to the category "unknown".
But also any good scientist should be the first to tell you when something belongs in this "unknown" category, he would be a fool to make claims as to what people can or can't do with it.
In other words; if a scientist can't control it, can't measure or detect it, and doesn't know how it is controlled, it would be foolish for him to make a statement about whether other people can control it. |
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littlejerry
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2009 : 3:43:41 PM
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Gumpi,
hum... elaborate on frustration... how so? Frustration with meditation?
"No soup for you" |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2009 : 4:34:24 PM
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quote:
I am sorry but you have given no evidence of the things you claim. I am not about to blindly believe your claims without some kind of evidence.
The video you posted a link to is based on Herbert Bensons research. You must not have actually seen it or read anything about the results because the results showed that metabolism dropped only a tiny amount compared to the claims you are making about yogis.
I have few evidences if not a complete package...The evidences that have are few books in my native Indian language (not in English). So, I don't know it is of any use to you. I agree that I did not see Dr. Herbert Bensons's results directly. In the video he mentions that there he observe a decrease in the metabolism upward of 64% by the SIMPLE MEDIATION. Please note that there are more complicated meditation and yoga procedures which are much more capable and powerful. Also the extent of effect is produced depend upon the duration the subject is practicing yoga in his/her life(s) and how sincere (s)he is in the practice.
quote:
I didn't mention jeeva samadhi in my OP. it appears to me to be a practice whereby yogis are willfully commiting suicide. Eventually the air in pit will run out and no amount of lowered metabolism will save those people from suffocating to death.
I do not believe there is such a thing as prana. Prana is the old yogis attempt at trying to explain altered states of consciousness and their experiences with nerve currents that they have manipulated through conscious intervention of the autonomic nervous system. They had nowhere near the level of knowledge we do about the human body, although their intuitive insights weren't bad considering the time period they lived in.
I understand why you don't believe...I should tell you something... About 20 years ago when I very first hear from a yogi that presence of channels in our body (Ida and the Pingala) and prana/air can move to brain when you practice Yoga...I felt like what the heck are you talking about? I am well aware of human anatomy and physiology, I don't read anything like a channels in anatomy... there is no way on earth that prana /air can go to brain along spinalcord... I did not really believe that such thing can happen until when it happened to me when performing yoga. I should also mention one more happening from Sri Potuluri Veera Brahmendra Swami's life. Sri Potuluri Veera Brahmendra Swami who is also called as Indian Nostradamous is a Yogi who lived in Andhra Pradesh, India about 400 years ago. At one time he was explaining to his disciple Sidhiah that Gods residing in human body at different vital centers called chakras (Muladhara, Swadhistana, Manipura, Anahata, Vishuddha, Ajna and Sahasrara chakras). Kakkayya who overheard this statement wanted to see the presence of Gods in human body. He went straight to his home and dissected his wife to see the Gods therein. He could see nothing...realizing that she died because of his dissection operation...with a deep sorrow and cry he returned to Sri Potuluri Veera Brahmendra Swami begging and narrating how he had searched for Gods in his wife's body...Finally Swami walk down to Kakkayyaâ's home shows the Gods in the dead body of Kakkayya's wife to Kakkayya and Sidhiah and make her alive. This is not a story...It is a real happening...Please read more about Sri Potuluri Veera Brahmendra Swami and his life biography from here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aD...e&q=&f=false
He is one of the several Yogies who is self realized, possesed several siddhis attained the final destiny. I strongly recommend you to read this book and several other books to better understand yoga rather then believing there is not such thing and arguing. Absence of evidence is not an evidence for absence of a phenomenon. If you or me search for prana, chakaras and Ida and Pingala by dissecting the dead body or searching the anatomy books, we will end up with the same result what Kakkayya got. This did not mean such phenomenon does not exist or the yogies who talk about these are fools... The easy way to go about is learn the right path properly. Reading this book will also tell you how he attained jeevasamadi...
quote:
Everything i mentioned about hibernation is based on facts i have collected after researching the internet and books thoroughly. In not ONE case will you find any instance of any yogi suspending their metabolism completely through means of non-physical agents such as prana. All the conditions for lowering the metabolism are accounted for by physical means.
Also, Yogis do not have supernatural abilities or siddhis. They cannot do anything and everything, as you put it. One of the siddhis mentioned by Patanjali is the ability for the yogi to increase their body mass to the size of a mountain! There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that such a thing has ever occurred. Such a feat would outrank the miracle of krishna's lifting a hill, and he was supposed to be God incarnate. Besides this, i cannot think of any practical utility for a person to increase their body size to that of a mountain. This is nothing but superstitious myth, which originated in the dark ages.
Reducing metabolism and reaching a stage something similar to suspended animation is a very very small component that can be obtained using yoga, for example it is like $1 in $1 billion billion. If done properly and seriously you can see and talk to God and mix with him…this is the potential of yoga. If you want to know more about yoga please re-read Patanjali yoga sutara, hatha yoga pradipika and so on little carefully. They explain about all the siddhis…Because you are talking about non existence of siddhis I would like to show you some thing...
http://www.indiadivine.org/articles...e/Page1.html
http://www.indiadivine.org/articles...n/Page1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szed...ture=related
these are not big siddhis. But small glimpse of evidences such thing are possible in these light ages...
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2009 : 5:18:53 PM
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The yogi in the fire was pulling off a trick and didn't even sit in fire. The video was doctored to make it look like fire was on him, instead of beside him.
The floating nun is not even worth mentioning. But i will anyway. Anybody can float on water. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2009 : 3:19:24 PM
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jerry,
sorry for my previous post being short and all. When you said thinking too much leads to silliness, i agree. So the best thing is to practice. Doubt seems to ask questions all the time, and perhaps a doubting mind can never be at rest.
About leaning against the wall, the spine is naturally curved so it doesn't fit a flat surface. Maintaining an upright posture is fairly easy if you sit on one cushion and use another cushion for back support to lean against. And make sure your feet and calves are protruding from the cushion - just use the cushion for your butt lol
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yoga and hibernation
