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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 07:39:30 AM
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http://www.aypsite.org/T4.html
Hundreds of years ago the great reviver of yoga in India, Shankara, said, "Even the greatest yogi cannot gaze into the eyes of a beautiful woman without having his seed jump."
i have done some readin of teh beautiful and the ecstatic stuff offered at ayp and my pranams to yogani for doin this.
but somethings been bothering me lately ... is the above line from lesson 4 of tantra yoga on ayp.
so does it mean that great yogi's like yukteshwar and paramhansaji succembed to the beautties and curves of the female body? i remember readin a line from autibography where yogananda quotes his guru sayin 'do not allow urself to be marred by the beauty of a beautiful face.. don't let teh frogs of desires kick u around' or somethin like that ..
so acc to mr.yogani and the shankaracharya back then, were the yogis like yukteshwar and yoganandaji not immune to these things? i remmember readin through the book and the yss/srf lessons about the COMPLETE mastery over sex. and that i red was when the muladhar chakra is fully awakened by kundalini or somethin like that.
please discuss/shed light
my first post on this great forum .. greetings to u all! hopin to get guidance from the guru within me and w/o. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 08:00:15 AM
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Welcome to the forum fcry64!
I think the "complete mastery of sex" comes as a side effect of regular practices, and not from any attempts to master sex. Of course, witholding sexual energy is very good for practices, both tantra and regular meditation and pranayama. But any mental efforts to master sexual thoughts are likely to cause bad effects because of concentrating on it.
I think that is what your Shankara quote is saying.
"Even the greatest yogi cannot gaze into the eyes of a beautiful woman without having his seed jump."
I think "seed jump" does not necessarily mean ejaculation, but probably sexual attraction. Then what you do with that is a personal decision; just the attraction is uncontrollable.
I think modern society attaches less stigma to sex than it used to, so it is easier for us to not make a big deal out of it. Then we can concentrate more on using the energy for spiritual purposes rather than struggling with abstaining and punishing ourselves for not being able to control it.
I think what Yogananda was saying is if you indulge too much and are obsessed with sex it takes away from your spiritual energy. Your highest ideal must be spiritual, not sexual. But no need to punish yourself for mistakes, like in meditation, just correct your course and press on!
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Edited by - Etherfish on Jul 17 2009 08:04:23 AM |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 08:19:14 AM
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thanks for the reply etherfish. :)
i don't want to bring in any superimposition or teh forceful control of teh sexual desire or anyhting here.
i am just concerned about yogani(with all due respect) quoting shankaracharya sayin teh spiritual giants havin such desires(upon the sight of beautiful woman) and having their 'seed jumps'. i am just bothered due to that. complete mastery over sex was talked about by yoganandaji in his book... even in the yss/srf lessons too.. see my main post again ... |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 08:25:35 AM
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| by mastery i mean the mastery over the desire itself, not the methods to control it... in the lessons it was given that kundalini awakening or the upturning of the muladhar due to the passage of kundalini through it is the only way to get past the sexual desire. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 11:06:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by fcry64
by mastery i mean the mastery over the desire itself, not the methods to control it... in the lessons it was given that kundalini awakening or the upturning of the muladhar due to the passage of kundalini through it is the only way to get past the sexual desire.
Welcome Fcry64!
The methods of yoga are what enable us to reach "mastery over the desire," as you call it. It would be more accurate to call it "transcending the desire." The AYP approach to full-scope yoga covers the preservation and cultivation of sexual energy (regardless of sexual lifestyle) along with the necessary cultivation of inner silence and ecstatic conductivity and radiance. Prior to and during all of that is our bhakti (spiritual desire). The combination of all these means leads to a transcendence of the dominance of reproductive sex.
Sex will always be there in the neurobiology, but our intention with that energy and its manifestation can be transformed in stillness, as Etherfish has discussed. In time, it becomes automatic. Then there need not be any fear or obsession about the biological response. Like everything else in time and space, it becomes a wave on the ocean of our infinite Being, and we cannot be swept away by it any more than the ocean can be swept away by one of its waves.
When Shankara's statement is taken in this context, it makes perfect sense. Remember, he was still a young man at the height of his great mission. From the standpoint of self-identified awareness ("I am the body"), I can see that Shankara's statement could be disturbing. But here we are talking about going far beyond the limits of self-identification with the body, and that is where Shankara was speaking from also. It is much better to be honest about our urges and transcend them by effective means, than to be fighting with them on the surface level of mind where they can never be mastered.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 1:21:52 PM
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thanks for teh beautiful reply yoganiji. hope i dint hurt anyone her eor intend too.. sayin this cause i thought maybe some would be.. and i found it kinda disturbing myself regardin this about teh saints..
but shankaracharya as a young man .. did he have his seed jump? can anyone provide teh exact statement he did in hindi or sanskrit or wichever lang it is?
i got teh point of teh arousal and then 'the way the arousal is being automatically dealt with in saints/high end yogis'...but my question remains..
does teh arousal still persist in them? even after so much purification and sadhana? its a big deal for me..this question.. but am not tryin to make one outta it for others.. i just wanna know the truth. pls help.
thanks to yoganiji again for sheddin light on this matter in such a nice way! |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 1:25:18 PM
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| i read in autobiography that saints later live in non stop nirvikalpa samadhi.. so even in that state such things pop up?(yeha though as yogiji pointed out that they are dealth with automtically, and the desirer is being like the ocean, undisturbed by its own waves) |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 1:35:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"Even the greatest yogi cannot gaze into the eyes of a beautiful woman without having his seed jump."
I think "seed jump" does not necessarily mean ejaculation, but probably sexual attraction. Then what you do with that is a personal decision; just the attraction is uncontrollable.
yeah.. am talkin about the sexual attraction only ... the statement would be pretty hyperbolic if ejaculation were teh meanin of seed jump. sexual attraction is uncontrollable even for them .. is my intent of puttin forth this topic. :) |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 7:01:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
You might enjoy this video of Saida talking about sexual attraction and making it spiritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1nn-PHA0pg
My seed jumped watching this video  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 7:53:52 PM
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Yes she is attractive.
But did you get the point of what she is saying?
Part of what makes her attractive is retention of sexual energy, and sending it through her whole body. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 01:07:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
But did you get the point of what she is saying?
Yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to dismiss or diminish what she was saying. I found her message consistent with the tantric principles discussed here. It was nice to hear her view on the topic. |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 05:23:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
You might enjoy this video of Saida talking about sexual attraction and making it spiritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1nn-PHA0pg
u r deviating from teh topic bro(or sis i dunno, dnt have teh intuit to know:P)
taking my example, when i was like 16 or something i started getting this strong motherly vibe thingy whenever i looked at women, beautiful or ugly and some rise in 'ecstatic conductivity' too .. i think i could convert the sexual arousal spontaneously w/o any technique(or maybe that wasn't sexual arousal and conversion but some direct experience can't say) to some form of short termed bliss ... at 17 or mid 16 i read autobiography of a yogi and had some changin experinces before and after i read teh book.. thats off topic though. am 22 now and no spiritual progress .. wasted all those years gaming an stuff.
[edit: put ecstatic conductivity in "''"] |
Edited by - fcry64 on Jul 19 2009 06:26:02 AM |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 05:32:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
You might enjoy this video of Saida talking about sexual attraction and making it spiritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1nn-PHA0pg
My seed jumped watching this video
hehe.. mine dint. felt nice about saida though .. when she talks about caring and stuff n the arousal being a gift given by teh opposite sex etc.. good girl :P |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 07:18:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
You might enjoy this video of Saida talking about sexual attraction and making it spiritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1nn-PHA0pg
My seed jumped watching this video
I too got somewhat distracted.....lol...
to fcry64,
& All those interested or intrigued,
If I set up a file sharing site i can link you to a document i used to use( it was written by a swami as he says in the document for the celibate and non-celibate monks in his care.celibacy was then a life-style choice,not synonymous with bhramacharya as many people view it.). I'm not sure if it bears any resemblance to any of yogani's tantra lessons( perhaps lesson 33 ,though i was using it solo before other practices,swirling the energy as milky white light in the head during a little kumbhaka before returning it to base with breath..pre-orgasmic mode, as yogani perhaps puts it..i.e one engages in arousal , then does taoist deer pelvic thrust excericse( the penis less excited & returning it to more flaccid state) then back to stimulation, then back to the deer excercisees, and so on ,building gradually up the base energies to transmutate them, then after about 10-12 mins when one is pretty near about ot climax one does just one round of what now looks like SbP.(At least this is how i interpreted the instructions).The conversion to ojas possibly occurs at this point. With a little pracitce the desire to release seed is overcome and a new neurobiology emerges.Erections stay for longer,last longer..your sex life is transformed completley to a quite different level and another dimension.Ojas/spiritual energy was possibly created when i done it and the energy revenue was enormous- though no overload feeling as such . i could subsist on very little sleep for example 3 hours per night,not feel tired at all during the day say, get up at 4am and meditate for another 3 hours, no problem.even felt like 10 mins)One can become like Saida but it takes disipline and traning as part of a full-scope system/set of yoga practices. doing it solo does means it's all in your hands,and can be integrated with other P's but could be tricky doing it without othersliving in proximity to you thikning you're possibly a nymphomaniac.
I remember one poster said if we knew how to conquer desire it would hav been posted by now and shared, and i want to hear it.
One raises sexual enrgies higher up the system, to higher frequencies to fill our whole being, so we do indeed transcend our desires, and it is very liberating indeed.Also i'm thinking that lust orginates as a thought in the mind-purification and transmutation mean we are no longer obsessed by reproductive sex.when we transmutate we are aleady having sex 24/7 internally. we can feel the orgasm but we are not swept away by it or overwhelemd. we just relax with it,remain disspassionate about it,not be controlled by it.(one of tantra's paradoxes) in unreflexive awareness. Eventually the man can decide whether he want to lose his seed,with the being/body subsumed by it's own perpetual orgasm..
one can thus see through much ilussion & suffering in the world, the source of which is much neurosis about sex and related desire.
A.
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Edited by - Akasha on Jul 19 2009 08:35:46 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 08:13:27 AM
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fcry64, thank you very much for opening this topic. I reacted on that sentence as well when I read the book, just as you did, and I'm glad to read Yogani's response here! It's truly easy to misinterpret from a mind point of view!
(On Saida: I didn't find her message consistent with the tantric principles discussed here, when I read closer on her site. The taoist methods she's exploring are mainly focussed on orgasms, and orgasmic training, emphazising increased pleasure. In AYP we practice pre-orgasmic tantra, avoiding any type of peak release. Whole different story, in my view, although it is off topic...)
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Edited by - emc on Jul 19 2009 12:07:52 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 08:43:11 AM
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| Sorry I haven't investigated her any further than the video. I assumed since she was talking about accessing orgasmic energy through breathing and smiling, and since she said she takes sexual energy and sends it through her whole body and doesn't feel obligated to connect it to intercourse or stimulation, that her views were similar to pre-orgasmic retention. What site did you look at? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 12:18:30 PM
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Hi Ether,
I agree, it sounds good what she says on the video, but the energies I pick up from here are not very deep, so I went on to read the articles on her site:
http://www.thedesiletsmethod.com/in...17&Itemid=29
From my understanding and interpretation, she uses the "big terms" but are more into a play with energies so far, which taoist methods are very much about... not what I would call a tantric union on the level we mostly discuss here. But that's a crude judgement based on my limited understanding of her ideas... I might be totally on a little bike out cycling... Just wanted to hit on someone today... happened to be on her!  |
Edited by - emc on Jul 19 2009 12:23:25 PM |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 5:00:39 PM
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glad i could serve u this way dude. hmm .. i dnt
recall yoganandaji quoting a similar line like this statement shankaracharya did. maybe high end saints like ramkrishna(for eg) have done away with this desire totally :) .. and that shankaracharya could be wrong...? confusing :(
quote:
Originally posted by emc
fcry64, thank you very much for opening this topic. I reacted on that sentence as well when I read the book, just as you did, and I'm glad to read Yogani's response here! It's truly easy to misinterpret from a mind point of view!
(On Saida: I didn't find her message consistent with the tantric principles discussed here, when I read closer on her site. The taoist methods she's exploring are mainly focussed on orgasms, and orgasmic training, emphazising increased pleasure. In AYP we practice pre-orgasmic tantra, avoiding any type of peak release. Whole different story, in my view, although it is off topic...)
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 5:09:24 PM
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| desire or the opp. sex attraction i mean... . |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 10:56:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Hi Ether,
I agree, it sounds good what she says on the video, but the energies I pick up from here are not very deep, so I went on to read the articles on her site:
I wasn't trying to say that she is in alignment with AYP, but that what she is saying is in alignment with this topic. She teaches that sexual attraction is not to be avoided as a road to spirituality. It is to be seen as a gift from the person you are attracted to, and that energy may be used to develop orgasmic feelings in the entire body. She teaches witholding sexual energy to multiply it, and moving the energy from the sexual organs to the brain, similar to here. |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 05:04:34 AM
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etherdude what u r sayin is right no doubt, regarding teh ojas thingy transmutation and all on a lower level or wthvr but u r deviatin the topic man. i am like talkin about the state that might be consistin of total annihilation of that desire or teh attraction that comes down the road of spirituality .. or is it that this seed jumping thingy stays on forever? thats why i bought in the saints
cheers.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Hi Ether,
I agree, it sounds good what she says on the video, but the energies I pick up from here are not very deep, so I went on to read the articles on her site:
I wasn't trying to say that she is in alignment with AYP, but that what she is saying is in alignment with this topic. She teaches that sexual attraction is not to be avoided as a road to spirituality. It is to be seen as a gift from the person you are attracted to, and that energy may be used to develop orgasmic feelings in the entire body. She teaches witholding sexual energy to multiply it, and moving the energy from the sexual organs to the brain, similar to here.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 08:12:53 AM
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No, disagreeing with the premise is still on topic! I am saying it is not necessary to annihilate sexual desire to be on a spiritual path.
There are a lot of Catholic priests who would disagree with this also. And many of them manifest the effects of trying to annihilate sexual desire. It is beneficial to withhold sexual energy, but annihilating desire is asking for trouble. There may be states where sexual energy is transmuted to something the average person would not call sexual, but nothing has been annihilated.
And to reach that state you would not concentrate on attraction, or non-attraction to another person. |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 4:18:00 PM
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all i am askin is that whter this sexual desire is there in teh high end saints liek teh ones i mentioned above or not. pls read my posts again bro.
everyone is gettin ur point that alongthe spritual path, teh supression of teh desire is not necessary and leads to problems but transcending it is the way. but that is not what i started this topic for.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
No, disagreeing with the premise is still on topic! I am saying it is not necessary to annihilate sexual desire to be on a spiritual path.
There are a lot of Catholic priests who would disagree with this also. And many of them manifest the effects of trying to annihilate sexual desire. It is beneficial to withhold sexual energy, but annihilating desire is asking for trouble. There may be states where sexual energy is transmuted to something the average person would not call sexual, but nothing has been annihilated.
And to reach that state you would not concentrate on attraction, or non-attraction to another person.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 5:53:50 PM
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fcry64,
What if the question is not really relevant the way it is put? Since you realize you are not a person, the person is fake... then who is there to have the desire? The common way we perceive sexual desire is from an individual point of view, no? "I'm horny", basically, and the physical sexual response is in "my body". What happens when "my" disappears from this, as is the case with great yogis and saints who have realized Oneness. Isn't there just "horniness" and "physical response" left? And who's having them? 
What comes to me is
Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.
After enligthenment: chop wood, carry water.
It's just not YOU doing the work anylonger. The perspective has shifted. There is chopping wood taking place in the Consciousness' Play of Life.
I guess it's the same with physical sexual responses... they will continue since it's in our animal bodies to create such, but it's no longer "My desire" that is urged to be acted upon in any way. "I" will no longer be identified with the body in the same way. The perspective has shifted.
Just my two cents...
and a quote from Rumi comes to me:
"All that is profane becomes sacred again."
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 7:53:09 PM
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Very well put EMC.
I think there has been a lot of effort for many years by religions and societies to make sex bad and dirty. And so people would look up at anybody on a pedestal who claims to have cleansed themselves of it.
But this was all very ignorant because our whole connection with this world is through our body. Life force is extremely important here, and it is intimately connected with the body. And life force tries to multiply itself by nature.
So I think EMC is right; horniness is. If anything, a self realizing person (or saint as Yogananda calls them) would have greater freedom in his available choices, not fewer by completely cutting out certain options that the rest of us have.
Why does a saint have more choices? Because he has freed himself from attachments. So he could have the strongest impulse that anyone could have to have sex, and he would have the freedom to not act on it because he has complete control of himself.
This control not having been gained by annihilating sexual desire. But by dealing with it directly and learning to move that energy to other parts of his body for years, and knowing that he can gain greater pleasures than sex (read about spinal breathing pranayama,
that is what it is about). It is still sexual energy; nothing has changed, but when it causes orgasmic feelings in other parts of the body people don't call it sex; they call it prana or life force, or chi. So if you saw a very sexy woman and felt an orgasmic feeling in your arm, would you say your seed had jumped? I usually feel it in my chest in response to a woman.
And then the next step is what EMC says, not identifying with the body that has those sensations.
But again, nothing is annihilated; only the perception changes. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jul 20 2009 7:59:15 PM |
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even the greatest yogi has his seed jump?! :P
