|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 10:32:45 PM
|
---From Swami Sivananda's - 'Practice Brahmacharya'
"Even if there is a single impure sexual thought in the mind, you can hardly expect to have
strict mental Brahmacharya. You cannot then be termed as Oordhvaretas or one in whom the
seminal energy flows upwards towards the brain for being stored up as Ojas Sakti. There is a
tendency for the semen to flow downwards even if there is a single impure thought."
---From Swami Sivananda's - 'Practice Brahmacharya'
I was reading Swami Sivananda's book, Practice Brahmacharya. I was wondering if his views on brahmacharya were extreme. Even if I have a single impure thought, it will cause the semen to flow downwards?
I was wondering how this compares to the AYP's view on the seminal energy flowing upwards. If what Swami Sivananda says is ture, then what about the whole Tantra practice? Do we leave the whole Tantra practice behind at some point as we progress?
I would like to hear the thoughts of others on this topic. |
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 06:10:13 AM
|
I don't know about the semen, but I do agree that just one single sexual THOUGHT - if you BELIEVE IN IT and fall for its temptation to identify with it - brings you right back to low frequent ego, and you have lost presence. Believing thoughts and being present are mutually exclusive. No exception. (And I can assure you, if you have a sensitive enough woman nearby she she will IMMEDIATELY feel that movement of sexual selfish mind inside of her!!!  ) |
 |
|
|
christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 09:00:35 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by emc
(And I can assure you, if you have a sensitive enough woman nearby she she will IMMEDIATELY feel that movement of sexual selfish mind inside of her!!! )
Ooooooh yes!!!! tell me about it! it happened to me a couple of days ago when I was sexually in the heart, and the other wasn't tuned to me..
That's quite frustrating and at the end of the day, I feel like it's really time for me to drop my last tiny hopes to meet an "equal" lover, on a higher plane.. better meet 'him' inside, right? at least this one is always available and the union is permanent and unconditional.
As for the pure/impure concept, there is nothing as such.
But the nature of the mind is to divide. It splits reality in 2 and someone who is split in 2 cannot be peaceful
Tantra is about unity, it encompasses everything as an expression/impression of the divine.
It's a matter of attitude.
To me, no thought is impure. A thought is a thought. It is vibration. It is neutral.
Not angry, just 'firmly' rooted today 
|
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 09:31:16 AM
|
Any strong emotion or thought is grist to the tantric mill. It's so Protestant to judge thoughts - just use the energy they generate. Who is to judge 'pure' or 'impure?'
Sort of a cross-post with you, Christiane...
Peace!
gri |
|
|
|
christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 09:39:31 AM
|
'sort of' .... yes!  |
|
|
|
rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 3:47:11 PM
|
It was not my intention to start a discussion on what is pure and impure thought. I have no intention to debate what is pure and impure.
When I was reading this particular book, my understanding was that Swami Sivananda referred to any thought of sexual nature as impure. For instance, he says if you touch a wood and a woman, you should feel the same way. May be my initial post is out of context here since it was taken out of a book.
So, instead of saying a single impure thought, my initial question should read 'a single sexual or perhaps lustful thought', Can it a great impact on the yogic life? |
|
|
|
Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 4:19:37 PM
|
Swami Sivananda wrote many things which no person throughout all of eternity will ever be able to accomplish.
It's not worth getting frustrated over! |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 4:33:26 PM
|
quote:
So, instead of saying a single impure thought, my initial question should read 'a single sexual or perhaps lustful thought', Can it a great impact on the yogic life?
Go to Top of Page
My two pennies: no. |
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 4:53:39 PM
|
My answer would be the same - the crucial thing is which address is the thought coming from? Sexual/lustful thoughts from an egoic place is impure by default, if we chose that type of semantics. That's what impurity is - something stemming from the little self. Ego would never enjoy touching wood in the same way as a woman.
When realized, there is just as much enjoyment in touching the miracle of wood as touching the miracle of woman, beacuse it's all consciousness sensing itself as form. Should a sexual thought arise from habit (which they DO even after realization) it is seen as absolutely irrelevant to what's taking place since it's not identified with anylonger. Ego and thoughts have been transcended.
Thus, it's only before realization we may be worried about any impure thoughts. After, it will be self-evident and peaceful!
Christiane, yes, I see what you mean!  Some suggest that a woman may refrain from engaging in sexual activities with men who don't want to practice seriously being present during lovemaking. If they do want to practice seriously, it's woman's responsibility to inform - gently, from the heart - what she feels is going on and just stop it in order not to receive more projected tension from the man. In that way she could serve as a perfect ego-detector and speed up the transformation within both the man and herself. Never to compromise, but to stay True to Love no matter what manipulations the male sexual mind will present at the moment in order to get what it wants. Should the man then be more inclined to continuation of egoic self-satisfying sex although the mouth says otherwise, it will quickly be revealed this way. |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 9:48:05 PM
|
Hi rkishan, and all,
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
Even if I have a single impure thought, it will cause the semen to flow downwards?
No, it will not.
I can elaborate if you like, but that's the short, accurate and pertinent answer. You'll have more problems based on worry and analysis about thoughts, than you will from a single thought -- of any type.
quote:
Do we leave the whole Tantra practice behind at some point as we progress?
As with all matters of life and practice, inner guru/intuition/clear awareness can be our guide. In general, though, healthy sexuality, including tantric practices, is not an obstacle of any kind. And, as with all other practices based on normal human behavior -- tantric sexual practices can be a useful, enjoyable and positive part of one's overall life and practice.
And please remember: some of the deepest original tantric sexual practices were designed for use after realization -- and only after realization (see: 29th Chapter of Abhinavagupta's Tantraloka).
quote:
I would like to hear the thoughts of others on this topic.
As with all areas of life and practice, undue thinking -- often thinking about thinking -- tends to be the source of most delay in realization.
Normal human behavior is just fine; be easy with it all, including sexuality.
If a certain orientation needs to shift, it will, as the true nature of the self shines more brightly as you continue on your path; sincerity is all that's really required.
I've never found specifics of sexual thought or behavior to be an issue, one way or the other -- it's only the amazing range of evaluation about sex and sexuality that's artificial and unhealthy.
And "impurity" is a concept - a concept tied to the illusions of mind, which emanate from the egoic thought-self; best to pay as little attention as possible to all of these, and just continue with living and practicing, I've found.
No thought can be any kind of a problem, unless you think it can. Otherwise - the only thought that has has any pertinence is this one, right now.
And ... that thought is already gone.
See?
Easy.
And beautiful.
Including sex and sexuality.
We just need to drop dark dreams of the past; liberation and enjoyment of the present, now, happen all by themselves.
They call the true nature of the self "the natural state" for a reason; it is.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 10:05:38 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
For instance, he says if you touch a wood and a woman, you should feel the same way.
For who?
Pinocchio??
Regular humans, probably not so much ....!
And yes, I am "attempting humor", here .... but with a serious point:
It's really, really easy to unduly worry about stuff like this.
Sex and sexuality are natural.
Per cultural conditioning, sexual thoughts of various types are normal, for humans of both genders.
Sex itself is physical; artificial conditioning makes it something conceptual and/or spiritually-conceptual.
If a given man or woman is unduly focused on sex in thoughts or actions, he or she probably has some awareness of this ... and/or, balance will tend to restore, if there's imbalance ... as practices continue.
As Abhinavagupta says:
"Neither accept nor reject; simply rest in the true nature of the self."
(Clear awareness, the experiencer of this moment -- the one that's the same whether you're thinking about sex or food or penguins or not at all.)
Hope this is helpful.
Intending Peace, Fun & Worry-Free Living, Unbound, For All,
Kirtanman
PS- You might find this --> post-thread helpful, including the video link at the bottom of that post ("From Lust to Liberation" by Paramahamsa Nithyananada) ....
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#53788 |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 21 2009 10:49:32 PM |
|
|
|
christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 12:46:05 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
For instance, he says if you touch a wood and a woman, you should feel the same way.
For who?
Pinocchio??
Even Pinocchio would have an erection (but through his nose!)
(sorry...have an incurable laughing symptom since yesterday...
couldn't miss this one!)
|
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 06:08:44 AM
|
Kirtanman quote:
I've never found specifics of sexual thought or behavior to be an issue, one way or the other -- it's only the amazing range of evaluation about sex and sexuality that's artificial and unhealthy.
I'm happy that you never had an issue with it. Most men I've met haven't had issues with it. During these times, I believe it's mostly women who gets the unhealthy part of it.
I saw the video with Nithyananda - very good! - and saw that we all say the same thing, but use different terminology.
He differentiates between sex - lust. Sex = physical, natural, divine and lust = fantasies, thought based.
I use the terms making love - having sex. Making love = physical, natural, divine and having sex = fantasies, thought based.
Traditionally the words pure - impure has been used to differentiate between the very same things.
If we don't add fantasies or evaluations to any of these terms - they are used for differentiation, which serves a purpose.
Nithyananda mentions that disturbances in the chakras will bring diseases related to those. Having ego-driven lusting sex may cause disease in the long run because the natural sexuality is disturbed by thoughts! I don't know how many workshops I've been to now, or how many therapists I've been talking to that exposes the same thing: Women have soooo many tensions and troubles with their hips and sexual organs, troublesome PMS and loads of stuff going on which turns out to be directly related to egotistic/thoughtbased sex! See, woman represents yin, the receptive part. We gather all that extra "fuel" that Nithyananda mentions (the add on tensions from fantasies, boiling in the system) which comes out through the man's penis, particularly in orgasm - that's a great tension releaser, most men go to sleep even afterwards! And who receives the tension? This is perfectly described by both Barry Long and Bernie Prior who have dug deep into this field, seeing the energetic dance that's going on in the sexual interaction between man and woman. There's a different energetic dance depending on if sex is lustbased or lovebased.
Nithyananda says "Drop the fantasies". I pointed to the fact that women can become really, really good at sensing when those fantasies run the show in the bed, and help the man discover the mind trap he's in! IF she has dropped her fantasies, of course! Of course, women are no passive victims - that's putting assumptions on this! We are all conditioned to play this game during these times! Women go along with it and learn how to be sexy to fulfil the fantasies. No one to blame - it's just the comings and goings of it! That's why an awakening woman may start to become responsible for Love (or the natural sexuality) and drop the fantasies herself, and help the partner drop his fantasies. |
Edited by - emc on Jul 22 2009 06:19:00 AM |
|
|
|
gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 07:59:20 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by christiane
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by rkishan
For instance, he says if you touch a wood and a woman, you should feel the same way.
For who?
Pinocchio??
Even Pinocchio would have an erection (but through his nose!)
(sorry...have an incurable laughing symptom since yesterday...
couldn't miss this one!)
Everything is the same to the enlightened person. A stone, piece of wood, leaf, gold, woman and... A BONE. I think Bono would make a good enlightened partner. |
|
|
|
Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 9:57:19 PM
|
Hi emc,
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Kirtanman quote:
I've never found specifics of sexual thought or behavior to be an issue, one way or the other -- it's only the amazing range of evaluation about sex and sexuality that's artificial and unhealthy.
I'm happy that you never had an issue with it. Most men I've met haven't had issues with it. During these times, I believe it's mostly women who gets the unhealthy part of it.
My comment wasn't intended to be gender-specific, or to reference any gender-specific ego tendencies. My comment (and maybe I didn't communicate it with complete clarity) was actually intended to echo what Nithyananda said in the video, coupled with my own experience, which is:
Yogic practitioners, specifically with reference to sexuality (though the tendency is actually quite "global"), can actually do themselves a disservice by over-thinking, and/or trading sexual fantasy-concepts for spiritual-fantasy concepts.
I found that maintaining a sincere attitude, and continuing practices has helped to maintain a relatively centered "middle way" with respect to sexuality.
Denial, repression and/or trading one set of concepts for another can be as detrimental to realization/enlightenment as outright indulgence in any area of ego-gratification can be.
The pertinent question is: does a given set of thoughts or behaviors reinforce a sense of separate (ego) self, or does it help to create unity and/or is it uplifting for any/all directly involved?
I've found this to be an effectively unerring compass, in my own life and practices -- whether or not I've found myself following it perfectly (or even close to perfectly) in any given moment.
During the times that following this compass has been challenging, I've found that easy and gentle course-correction is the best way to go ... as opposed to letting ego-mind try to hold itself to a set of standards that may or may not be applicable.
The results of practices themselves help support awareness of the the natural state ... which is interested in loving (unity, uplifting) and not interested in reinforcing any concepts ... including concept of separate self -- and so, active "course correction" tends to be needed less and less.
And so, I was suggesting, per this thread -- that concern about a "single impure thought" might well be counter-productive to realization ... as opposed to simply maintaining a sincere heart and moving forward with practices.
I actually come from a family of almost all women, including three (now adult) daughters - and which included being raised primarily by my mother, while my father was largely absent/distant. I've also been in long-term relationships/marriage almost all of my adult life, and have had many friendships with women (<- likely per the comfort and familiarity I have with women of all ages, per my family history; historically, I was a lot more comfortable with women than with men, very probably for the same reasons.)
And so, I have seen the effects of all manner and degree of callous and selfish (and outright abusive) male behavior towards women ... as well as callous and selfish (and outright abusive) female behavior towards men.
There's ultimately a lot less difference between men and women than many people theorize.
Even knowing that, though -- there's a tendency to "side" with women; the amount of suffering women endure & have endured is downright staggering (and I have tears in my eyes as I write this; I've literally never known a woman who hasn't suffered greatly, in some way, from psycho-social ego-dynamics -- even if it has "just" been the treatment as a sexual object and/or a the treatment as a person subject, in a given society, to the authority of males on one level or another (which includes every culture/society I know of).
In fact, it would be all too easy to go into historical conditioning about it ... almost tempting in fact .... except that I know-love Awareness just slightly too well for that to be possible.
The reality is: it's not men that are the problem, nor women that are the problem.
It's the fundamental error we call ego that is the problem.
Abusive men are as imprisoned by ego-concept as are abused women.
Abused men are as imprisoned by ego-concept as are abusive women.
Sometimes, the above two sentences can describe the same couple, in the same household, in a five minute period.
No exaggeration.
I bet each of us has seen this.
As Yogani beautifully wrote in the most recent Tantra lesson:
"Our gift to our family and to the world is our own spiritual development."
We can't save the people we love from drowning while we're actively drowning ourselves.
And, we're all on the same side ... because we're all emanating from the One Source - as is everything; Reality Is One.
There is no them; there is only us.
And authentic connection-unity - its discovery-creation - is how we come to realize.
I was simply recommending that no one trade one set of conceptual distraction-dreams for another.
quote:
I saw the video with Nithyananda - very good! - and saw that we all say the same thing, but use different terminology.
He differentiates between sex - lust. Sex = physical, natural, divine and lust = fantasies, thought based.
I use the terms making love - having sex. Making love = physical, natural, divine and having sex = fantasies, thought based.
Traditionally the words pure - impure has been used to differentiate between the very same things.
If we don't add fantasies or evaluations to any of these terms - they are used for differentiation, which serves a purpose.
In general, I agree with you ... and, as long as we're all willing to clarify terminology (and I thank you for doing so, emc) -- we'll all continue to support each other ... which is why we're here.
quote:
Nithyananda mentions that disturbances in the chakras will bring diseases related to those. Having ego-driven lusting sex may cause disease in the long run because the natural sexuality is disturbed by thoughts!
Having ego-driven *anything* can, and likely will likely manifest the symptom of disease in one form or another (even if it's psychological and therefore not necessarily glaringly physical).
The good news is:
Yogic practices literally remove the psychological maladies which contribute to dis-ease, on any plane of consciousness-manifestation. Does that mean the body-mind will have no disease at all? Unlikely, of course. Does it mean the tendency to manifest disease lessens? Clearly.
quote:
I don't know how many workshops I've been to now, or how many therapists I've been talking to that exposes the same thing: Women have soooo many tensions and troubles with their hips and sexual organs, troublesome PMS and loads of stuff going on which turns out to be directly related to egotistic/thoughtbased sex! See, woman represents yin, the receptive part. We gather all that extra "fuel" that Nithyananda mentions (the add on tensions from fantasies, boiling in the system) which comes out through the man's penis, particularly in orgasm - that's a great tension releaser, most men go to sleep even afterwards! And who receives the tension? This is perfectly described by both Barry Long and Bernie Prior who have dug deep into this field, seeing the energetic dance that's going on in the sexual interaction between man and woman. There's a different energetic dance depending on if sex is lustbased or lovebased.
I'm not familiar with this teaching (of Bernie Prior's and Barry Long's) ... though agree that there's a huge difference in the energy of any human interaction, depending upon whether ego or love is the driver.
I also agree with Nithyananda that fantasies ... of any type ... not just sexual ... add "fuel" which can create a psychic-energetic imbalance which only efficacious spiritual practices can correct.
(And all that "psychic-energetic" means is: if anyone reinforces ego based on what they think, it creates imprints of ego-reinforcement in stored memory, and therefore, ego-reinforcing behavior-creating-concepts become harder to shed.)
Fantasies also diminish both power and opportunity.
Nithyananda said a very, very interesting thing in the video, when a guy asked him whether or not "fantasies" about growing a company were good or not.
Nithyananda said (and I'm paraphrasing slightly; I don't have his statement memorized): "If you grow your company with fantasies, the growth is limited by your fantasy; if you grow your company without fantasy, the growth is limited only by your energy."
The same applies to anything in life.
And ... if we *really* drop fantasy ... *all* fantasy .... what is the limit of energy?
What could it be?
quote:
Nithyananda says "Drop the fantasies". I pointed to the fact that women can become really, really good at sensing when those fantasies run the show in the bed, and help the man discover the mind trap he's in! IF she has dropped her fantasies, of course!
You want to hear a truly interesting coincidence??
Men can do this, too.
If he's dropped his fantasies, of course.
And whether you're male or female ... if you drop your fantasies with a partner who is likewise willing ... and meet in the reality of loving presence - true, actual intimacy -- not only won't you ever look back -- you'll never even think about.
Reality beats fantasy every single time.
But only infinitely.
What most people miss, is: they *think* reality is *boring* ... that's their fantasy about reality!
Meeting/Realizing Union with a partner in true, full loving present experiencing ... whether it be while making love, meditating, playing ... or all three at the same time ... is the most beautiful and sacred experience available. Period. The most beautiful and sacred experiences require bodies -- that's why we're creating them, now.
When we drop ALL ideas .... a staggering realization emerges:
Loving Is Reality; Reality Is Loving.
There is nothing else.
We can only dream we're a me who can dream there is (something else).
quote:
Of course, women are no passive victims - that's putting assumptions on this! We are all conditioned to play this game during these times! Women go along with it and learn how to be sexy to fulfil the fantasies.
And ... have been known to cook up a few of their own ... from time to time. Maybe just a little. They're just not always *thought* of as fantasies (ironically ...) .. because they tend to be of the romantic-emotional variety.
A fantasy is determined by its nature ... not its content.
If its a thought, or based in thought ... in imagination ... derived from memory (as to what's good or bad; what's sexy or arousing - etc. etc. etc. etc.) ... it's fantasy.
And that's not to say that women don't "play to" men's erotic fantasies ... or that it's not primarily men who have these types of fantasies ... I'm just pointing out that in order to realize the benefits of dropping fantasies ... we must drop *all* of them ... including all imaginary concepts of any kind.
In my experiencing, the amount and degree of imagination being the driver of behavior knows no distinction of gender, nationality, religion, sexual preference, or any other so-called external qualifier .... imagination being the driver of behavior is nearly universal; it is the dream of the ego.
Thankfully, they've invented a cure.
It's called AYP.
Just take your 20-30 min. dose, twice daily ... and you'll be free of the debilitating dream of ego, in reality, before you know it.
After, too.
Literally.
quote:
No one to blame - it's just the comings and goings of it! That's why an awakening woman may start to become responsible for Love (or the natural sexuality) and drop the fantasies herself, and help the partner drop his fantasies.
Again: *ditto* the awakening man.
Women's desire for loving connection may seemingly be closer to the "surface" ... but the reality is: men want/need it, just a much; gender and even personality are very, very surface things, ultimately.
We are all one awareness ... dreaming we're separate.
The hunger to experience loving unity is universal ... it can just be very thickly veiled by concepts/ego-dreams.
Most people, whether men or women ... don't know how to get here ... and/or aren't familiar with the value of doing so.
I know quite a few people, myself included, who made the shift from dead "dream-sex" to living, loving unity in reality ... and I have never met a man or woman who didn't basically feel that after dream-dying of thirst for their entire life ... that they discovered an ever-renewing fountain of life-giving water.
And one of the most awesome discoveries of all ... is while awakened love making can be a powerful and beautiful (and fun and sacred) catalyst-celebration on many levels and in many ways .... ultimately, it has nothing at all to do with sex.
It's all about Loving.
It's all about Presence.
It's all about Awareness.
It's all about recognizing these three words as synonyms ... and knowing that not only do you have the power to freshly create This: Loving Awareness; Living - Unbound - Here, Now ....
You Are This Power.
When in doubt: LOVE.
When not in doubt: LOVE.
We might as well; we actually are, anyway.
_/\_
Intending Liberation From Conceptual Dreaming For All,
Kirtanman |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
The impact of a single impure thought
