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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 02 2009 : 1:20:36 PM
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Noticed today, fwiw, in meditation:
There is no "out there". Not a speck of it.
Everything that seems to be "out there" is just a portion of "in here" which we have at some point chosen to pretend not to inhabit.
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2009 : 6:05:33 PM
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Hey welcome back, Jim 
Hope life has been good "out there" 
Peace
cosmic (former troll) |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2009 : 7:00:32 PM
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Hey Jim & Karma & All,
A biggie, indeed!
Yogani once said that if he were to write a scripture, it would have one word:
"Within."
And I've said that if I were to write a commentary on that scripture, it would contain one sentence:
"It's all within."
The challenge, for most of us, seems to be in knowing/experiencing this knowing, now.
We realize, we forget, we realize more deeply and for a bit "longer" -- again and again ... and bit by bit ... the reality that there's only awareness ... and the objects within awareness (arising from, displaying in, returning to awareness) ... including any and all sense of self (thoughts, emotions, etc.) .... regardless of whether the given object has previously been defined as being "inside" or "outside".
And finally, we come to be the knowing that we *are* the awareness itself ... not the stuff appearing within awareness .... regardless of whether or not it's been labeled by the mind as "inside" or "outside".
The thinking mind (and the thought known as "me") loves to label stuff ... it's almost like (a whole lot like) it's compelled to do so ..... which is why Maya is called "Maya" (the word Maya comes from the Sanskrit word "Maa" - To Measure).
And, this labeling tendency will sometimes try to sneak in the back door .... and convince us that our "it's all within" realization was some silly meditative high .... because it's clearly *not* all within .... just look around ...... *think* about it .... you'll *see* (and so on, and so forth .... worlds without end).
Reality Is: It is ALL within ... there's only the Field (of Awareness, and all the stuff displaying in/on it ... the "screen", if you will) and the Knower of the Field (This Knowing Light we each and all are being, now).
And, Reality Is *also* ... the appearance, in the human experience ... of diversity.
And so .... the great shift .... the great tipping point ... is the moment it's all known as being within ... regardless of how it *seems* ... as opposed to conceiving and perceiving of the fiction of separation -- *with* a sense of self created in and by that same fiction of separation.
Who we actually are precedes, supercedes and succeeds the fiction of separation.
Thanks for this, Jim; good to see you!
Heart Is Where The AUM Is, and AUM Is All There Is,
Kirtanman |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2009 : 10:26:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Noticed today, fwiw, in meditation:
There is no "out there". Not a speck of it.
Everything that seems to be "out there" is just a portion of "in here" which we have at some point chosen to pretend not to inhabit.
Jim, you are correct. Namaste. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2009 : 11:30:58 PM
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Kirtanman,
I'm not talking about external stuff/objects. I'm talking about the very out-thereness. It's fallacy. There IS no "out there". Just portions of in-hereness we've attempted to uninhabit. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2009 : 03:20:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Noticed today, fwiw, in meditation:
There is no "out there". Not a speck of it.
Everything that seems to be "out there" is just a portion of "in here" which we have at some point chosen to pretend not to inhabit.
Deep appreciation Jim
I had my own insight out of what you said, as I sat after this mornings AYP meditation.
For me it was like the owning of the projections 100%, firstly with, say a person, then with other people, other objects, a wall, a tree, a piece of plastic and in the 100% ownership I relinquish any association whatsoever with the object of projection.
The part I was missing was that this can be expanded to more and more objects similtaneously untill the the whole universe and everything is just all one projection and owned 100% as being.
It's one thing doing this as a mental practice, it is when it is fully embodied that it is experienced.
Just sitting in that awareness of full embodiment within was beautiful.
Then I remembered, from a recent retreat, the term "open". With this I allowed the embodiment to open and open and open.
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2009 : 04:12:49 AM
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Funny to "fall" on this thread!
I've just been told 2 hours ago by, let's say, my 'spiritual mentor',
that my beloved was a shadow. That we are ALL shadows.
She told me to be my self. To love my self, and to wake up!
It sound harsh to the ears in the morning, but what sounds harsh usually hits the Truth inside.. and it's painful..yet true! |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2009 : 11:41:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Kirtanman,
I'm not talking about external stuff/objects. I'm talking about the very out-thereness. It's fallacy. There IS no "out there". Just portions of in-hereness we've attempted to uninhabit.
Hi Jim,
Unless I've either misunderstood you ... or not made myself clear:
We agree, completely.
That was my point as well: it's all within ... there is no "out there" .... even the greatest appearance of diversity is appearing "in here".
"Out there" is a matter of concept and semantics ... not actuality.
It seems we're saying the same thing, in slightly different ways, yes?
Nothing in my post was intended to convey disagreement ... merely elaboration, based upon my own experience.
What I understand you to be saying .... and what I'm saying, is:
There *are* no external objects .... there are objects appearing in awareness ... whether it's a sensation in the nose, a cup on a table, a memory .... all appearances "in here".
Yes?
Please let me know if you see it differently.
With Liberty & Just This for All,
Kirtanman |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2009 : 1:09:42 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
Oh, I didn't think you were disagreeing with me...and I wouldn't have minded if you were!
But your restatement of what I was saying struck me as different from what I was actually trying to say, so I clarified for those reading along. Same for this:
-------
What I understand you to be saying .... and what I'm saying, is:
There *are* no external objects .... there are objects appearing in awareness ... whether it's a sensation in the nose, a cup on a table, a memory .... all appearances "in here".
-------
Again, I'm not talking about objects. Sorry, I'm not trying to be a pain. Your point seems perfectly smart and insightful. I don't disagree! It's just not what I'm talking about. And, at least right now, I'm not able to express it any better. Maybe tomorrow! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 03 2009 1:17:14 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2009 : 6:10:04 PM
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If I ask you where your presence is - where your awareness is, where "here" for you is - you'll point at your body. But if someone cut off your arms and legs, would your presence/awareness shrink? Even a tiny bit? Does it grow as you gain weight? Does it vary as your cells constantly die and are replenished?
Our presence, our awareness, our "here" has never really had anything to do with the body. We encounter constant evidence of this, but we stubbornly overlook it to perpetuate the fiction. Presense is actually unbounded and infinite, but we conceptually map infinite awareness onto finite bodies, which makes awareness seem limited. That's the problem.
As we do yoga, and we open more and more doors in the infinite mansion of our presence, we find ourselves mapping more and more territory onto our bodies (i.e. me in here). As presence/awareness seems to expand, more and more comes to be seen as being contained "in here". We eventually feel like we've got the whole universe in our body - the famed "within as without", a confusing state where it's hard to tell what's inside and what's outside, because everything seems to exist in both....like a trick with mirrors!
But no. However you may think you've seen past "me-as-body", you're still distinguishing everything by the border of the body. There is no inside or outside, because presence has never been defined by your bodily borders.
Your desk blotter of awareness, your "here" place in which you've always lived and functioned, has always been Everything. Unbounded. There's no going beyond that because there's nothing beyond What Is.
You've never experienced a boundary, yet you persist in believing that one exists. But there is no "beyond", there is no "out there" and there is no "in here" because these distinctions are based on a false premise of where "here" is.
You don't radiate bliss, because that would require bliss to come from some geographically located place called "you". You don't send the samyama sutra "out there" to do its thing, because there's no "out there"...just portions of "in here" which you've chosen to pretend not to inhabit.
Your presence has no borders. Has never had borders. That seemingly narrow sliver of here-ness - which you have, for years, brought along with you wherever you go - is all that is. Its apparent narrowness is the result of a choice you made at some point to pretend not to inhabit It All. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 30 2009 12:50:43 AM |
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manig
India
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 01:26:17 AM
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THE DELUSION OF THINGS BEING IN ONE'S SOUL IS AN IMPOSED PHENOMENON. DROPPING IT, ONE IS ONESELF THE PERFECT, NON-DUAL AND ACTIONLESS BRAHMA -- THE ABSOLUTE REALITY.
THE WORLD THAT APPEARS AS A DIFFERENT THING FROM THE SOUL IS ALMOST UNTRUE. WHERE IS THE DIVISION IN A PURE, FORMLESS AND ORGANLESS ENTITY?
THE CONSCIOUS-SOUL IS FREE OF THE NOTIONS OF SEER, SEEING AND THE SEEN ETCETERA. IT IS IMMUNE AND UTTERLY FULL LIKE THE OCEAN AT THE TIME OF DELUGE.
EVEN AS DARKNESS DISSOLVES IN LIGHT, THE CAUSE OF ILLUSION DISSOLVES IN THE UNPARALLELED ABSOLUTE REALITY WHICH IS WITHOUT ORGANS -- SO WHERE IS THE DIVISION IN IT?
THE SUPREME REALITY IS ONE SINGULARITY; HOW CAN THERE BE DIVISION IN IT? THE STATE OF SUSHUPTI -- DREAMLESS DEEP SLEEP -- IS BLISSFUL; WHO HAS SEEN DIVISIONS IN IT?
http://www.balbro.com/heart/beat7.htm |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 02:40:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
If I ask you where your presence is - where your awareness is, where "here" for you is - you'll point at your body. But if someone cut off your arms and legs, would your presence/awareness shrink? Even a tiny bit? Does it grow as you gain weight? Does it vary as your cells constantly die and are replenished?
Our presence, our awareness, our "here" has never really had anything to do with the body. We encounter constant evidence of this, but we stubbornly overlook it to perpetuate the fiction. Presense is actually unbounded and infinite, but we conceptually map infinite awareness onto finite bodies, which makes awareness seem limited. That's the problem.
As we do yoga, and we open more and more doors in the infinite mansion of our presence, we find ourselves mapping more and more territory onto our bodies (i.e. me in here). As presence/awareness seems to expand, more and more comes to be seen as being contained "in here". We eventually feel like we've got the whole universe in our body - the famed "within as without", a confusing state where it's hard to tell what's inside and what's outside, because everything seems to exist in both....like a trick with mirrors!
But no. However you may think you've seen past "me-as-body", you're still distinguishing everything by the border of the body. There is no inside or outside, because presence has never been defined by your bodily borders.
Your desk blotter of awareness, your "here" place in which you've always lived and functioned, has always been Everything. Unbounded. There's no going beyond that because there's nothing beyond What Is.
You've never experienced a boundary, yet you persist in believing that one exists. But there is no "beyond", there is no "out there" and there is no "in here" because these distinctions are based on a false premise of where "here" is.
You don't radiate bliss, because that would require bliss to come from some geographically located place called "you". You don't send the samyama sutra "out there" to do its thing, because there's no "out there"...just portions of "in here" which you've chosen to pretend not to inhabit.
Your presence has no borders. Has never had borders. That seemingly narrow sliver of here-ness - which you have, for years, brought along with you wherever you go - is all that is. Its apparent narrowness is the result of a choice you made at some point to pretend not to inhabit It All.
namaste |
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manig
India
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 02:47:58 AM
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INFINITY IS THAT.
INFINITY IS THIS.
FROM INFINITY, INFINITY HAS COME INTO EXISTENCE.
FROM INFINITY, WHEN INFINITY IS TAKEN AWAY,
INFINITY REMAINS.
http://balbro.com/iam/ |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 06:58:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Kirtanman,
I'm not talking about external stuff/objects. I'm talking about the very out-thereness. It's fallacy. There IS no "out there". Just portions of in-hereness we've attempted to uninhabit.
Jim, thanks, I like that 'attempted to uninhabit'.
........having dissolved the boundary between inner and outer, we then see there is no difference between 'all-out-there'/'all-in-here'/witness-to-all-out-there-in-here.....it's not either/or, here/there or in/out, witness or the field of witness........this too dissolves.....to start with, we can hardly intuit this totality of non-definition, so we settle for one or other unity.....don't stop....beyond, beyond, always beyond....
chinna |
Edited by - chinna on Aug 30 2009 07:00:54 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 11:04:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
........having dissolved the boundary between inner and outer, we then see there is no difference between 'all-out-there'/'all-in-here'/witness-to-all-out-there-in-here.....it's not either/or, here/there or in/out, witness or the field of witness........this too dissolves.....to start with, we can hardly intuit this totality of non-definition, so we settle for one or other unity.....don't stop....beyond, beyond, always beyond....
Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm not questioning the basis for all distinctions - which would be an intellectual exercise unless one has cleared off more windshield mud than any of us has. I'm questioning one particular distinction, which some of us may continue to make purely out of habit, even though we've realized that our identification with body doesn't quite make sense.
I'm not talking about dissolving or reconciling "out here" and "in there". I'm pointing out that the "in here" and "out there" distinction only has meaning in the first place if there's a hard and meaningful boundary around your body (otherwise, where's the reference point?). If you know there's not, it's time to reconsider the very concepts of "inner" and "outer". Those terms are oft-used in yoga, so many of us hold onto them (and, thus, ignorance) long after we've seen through the misconception on which they're based.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 30 2009 11:10:22 AM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 11:39:35 AM
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Thanks Jim
Why stop at questioning one distinction?
Why not try and see if it can be more than an intellectual exercise? Seeing it intellectually, realising its possibility, is a good first step.
In jnana yoga, we don't clear off 'windshield mud', bit by bit, we focus directly on the ultimate. We see that there is no windshield nor mud and that no clearing process could lead to what we seek.
I accept this is not AYP teaching, which sees jnana as one element in a gradual path of enlightenment.
My experiemce is that jnana yoga, focusing on the ultimate, encompasses all the yogic phenomena without them being 'practised'. This perspective is implicit in AYP's holistic approach, but takes it a step further.
Sorry to distract you, however, if it is an unwelcome perspective.
chinna |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 12:30:39 PM
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All perspectives are welcome! I just want to try to be very clear re: what I'm saying, that's all!
I guess what I'm saying is that the notion that all distinctions will dissolve strikes me as a bit fuzzy, and full of Faith. OTOH, I've offered one distinction that, for at least some of us, has drastically outlived its usefulness. It's not terribly difficult to realize that one's presence is not defined by one's bodily boundary. I think many forumites already have an inkling about that.
Inner/outer distinction neither dissolves nor resolves. To say so treats a patently erroneous distinction with way too much respect! (LOL). There's nothing to unify or reconcile here, because that would mean there IS a within and a without to be worked and reckoned with. And for there to be an inner and an outer, that requires a reference point where "within" begins. "Within" WHAT? Where's the reference point? Show me the reference point! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 30 2009 12:48:57 PM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 12:48:51 PM
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The dissolution of all distinctions is total clarity. It is distinctions which are 'fuzzy', the false superimposed upon the Real, illusion 'inhabited'.
chinna |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 9:03:22 PM
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this thread reminds me of the experience of seeing myself interact fully, seeing thought occuring, but watching myself from another space. Things just happened. This experience freeked me out as it occured in a normal day to day situation and while in this state of consciouness I was at peace, but after I became scared I would loose part of myself if I were there the whole time. Thinking said "you cant enjoy work"
thanks for the words to read
brother Neil
I guess |
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manig
India
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2009 : 01:49:00 AM
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.... JUST LIKE THE ONENESS OF GHATAKASH, THE SKY WITHIN A POT, AND MAHAKASH, THE SKY WITHOUT A POT, BE ALWAYS PEACEFUL.
If an earthen pot is on the ground and we turn it over and place it upside down, and if the pot then looks up, it will see only its earthen body, not the sky. Kept upside down, even if the pot looks upwards, what will it see? All it will be able to see is its own base, its own layer of mud -- its body -- but not the sky.
Then we place the pot the right way up, its face towards the sky. Then when it looks up toward the sky it will be able to see, "I am not the body." Now the pot will also be able to see, "The small sky which is within me is the same sky that is outside; and between the two of us nowhere is there any gap, we are inseparable. It is me who has expanded into the sky above, and it is the sky above that has come all the way down into me -- nowhere is there any obstacle, any boundary, any wall in between."
http://www.balbro.com/heart/beat4.htm |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2009 : 10:36:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
this thread reminds me of the experience of seeing myself interact fully, seeing thought occuring, but watching myself from another space. Things just happened. This experience freeked me out as it occured in a normal day to day situation and while in this state of consciouness I was at peace, but after I became scared I would loose part of myself if I were there the whole time. Thinking said "you cant enjoy work"
thanks for the words to read
brother Neil
I guess
Dear brother Neil
I recall being freaked at times, and wondering if I was just going mad. But the distinction witness/phenomena eventually resolved, that 'being-in-a-separate-space' from what is witnessed vanished, and all returned as not-two. I am no longer able to say whether there is 'anything' or 'anyone' here or not. There is just spontaneous life, clear and free, felt as heart-bliss to the horizon. I can only say 'everything my jnana/advaita teachers told me is true'.
chinna |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2009 : 9:15:00 PM
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"What happens when there’s no self? What remains when the self is forgotten? Everything. The whole universe remains, and there’s no longer this isolated bag of skin that separates you from it. We think that that’s who we are, this bag of skin. Everything inside the skin bag is me and everything outside is the rest of the universe. What happens in realization is you realize inside and outside are the same reality"
John Daido Loori |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2009 : 01:39:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
If I ask you where your presence is - where your awareness is, where "here" for you is - you'll point at your body. But if someone cut off your arms and legs, would your presence/awareness shrink? Even a tiny bit? Does it grow as you gain weight? Does it vary as your cells constantly die and are replenished?
Our presence, our awareness, our "here" has never really had anything to do with the body. We encounter constant evidence of this, but we stubbornly overlook it to perpetuate the fiction. Presense is actually unbounded and infinite, but we conceptually map infinite awareness onto finite bodies, which makes awareness seem limited. That's the problem.
As we do yoga, and we open more and more doors in the infinite mansion of our presence, we find ourselves mapping more and more territory onto our bodies (i.e. me in here). As presence/awareness seems to expand, more and more comes to be seen as being contained "in here". We eventually feel like we've got the whole universe in our body - the famed "within as without", a confusing state where it's hard to tell what's inside and what's outside, because everything seems to exist in both....like a trick with mirrors!
But no. However you may think you've seen past "me-as-body", you're still distinguishing everything by the border of the body. There is no inside or outside, because presence has never been defined by your bodily borders.
Your desk blotter of awareness, your "here" place in which you've always lived and functioned, has always been Everything. Unbounded. There's no going beyond that because there's nothing beyond What Is.
You've never experienced a boundary, yet you persist in believing that one exists. But there is no "beyond", there is no "out there" and there is no "in here" because these distinctions are based on a false premise of where "here" is.
You don't radiate bliss, because that would require bliss to come from some geographically located place called "you". You don't send the samyama sutra "out there" to do its thing, because there's no "out there"...just portions of "in here" which you've chosen to pretend not to inhabit.
Your presence has no borders. Has never had borders. That seemingly narrow sliver of here-ness - which you have, for years, brought along with you wherever you go - is all that is. Its apparent narrowness is the result of a choice you made at some point to pretend not to inhabit It All.
yes |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2009 : 01:40:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
"What happens when there’s no self? What remains when the self is forgotten? Everything. The whole universe remains, and there’s no longer this isolated bag of skin that separates you from it. We think that that’s who we are, this bag of skin. Everything inside the skin bag is me and everything outside is the rest of the universe. What happens in realization is you realize inside and outside are the same reality"
John Daido Loori
yes |
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There is No "Out There"
